Nightwave "Elite" Challenges not very "Elite"

[Sevek7]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Oh, and how about because that sword of yours wasn't made and named in Ademre (with its own true name of Saicere) we fix that name, hmm?

Nice 🙂 Glad somebody got it!

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And it seems that the root of this is the name 'Elite'? Come on... my dude... that's literally just the most childish thing...

Yup I got confused about the word and the way it applies here. At first, I was using the dictionary definition which led to some confusion on my part, since I though elite challenges were supposed to be things that are difficult. Others have since pointed out my error, and I have corrected my understanding as a result. Sorry for this childish behavior. 

 

[(XBOX)Calliber]

We used to have more Elite-ish challenges, then people complained and now we have this.  

[Urjuhh]

8 railjack missions, each under a minute... Now, add to it the time it took to get to the point where your railjack was where it is now... All the bits and pieces, time spent on materials and building the thing and what it took to get the skills and gear to even get through the "go scan that railjack part"-missions. 

fast missions, 9 mil in naramon... you sir, you live in the game.... you eat and breathe it. 

13 min for the orb - it took me about 45min from start to finish the first and only time i did it...

So yes, you are elite, if you can do the elite missions fast

 

But the fact that you are moaning here.... you are either trolling, or trying to wave your e-peen WF-peen , or are just stupid...

 

[Sevek7]

3 hours ago, Urjuhh said:

8 railjack missions, each under a minute... Now, add to it the time it took to get to the point where your railjack was where it is now... All the bits and pieces, time spent on materials and building the thing and what it took to get the skills and gear to even get through the "go scan that railjack part"-missions.

You're right. If we define "elite" to mean "had a lot of time to spend" then it is an elite challenge. I had misunderstood that this is the correct definition for warframe. I was using the dictionary definition which was not correct in this context. As you can see in the rest of the thread, this has been pointed out by many different people, many different times. I've accepted my fault and come to a better understanding, there's no need to repeat the lesson over and over again.

3 hours ago, Urjuhh said:

fast missions, 9 mil in naramon... you sir, you live in the game.... you eat and breathe it. 

That is not the point of the screenshot, please disregard the focus numbers.

3 hours ago, Urjuhh said:

13 min for the orb - it took me about 45min from start to finish the first and only time i did it...

Yes I also think I would not be able to do it in 13 minutes. That was the point of my original post, that I thought "elite" meant things that would be difficult to do. I've come to a better understanding of the word "elite" now as it applies to warframe.

3 hours ago, Urjuhh said:

So yes, you are elite, if you can do the elite missions fast

Yes this is the incorrect definition of "elite" that I was using. We are wrong to use it in this way. 

3 hours ago, Urjuhh said:

But the fact that you are moaning here.... you are either trolling, or trying to wave your e-peen WF-peen , or are just stupid...

Yes, as others have pointed out, it was stupid of me to use the dictionary definition of "elite" in this context. I'm aware that I was stupid, thank you for your input.

[vomder]

No thanks. These annoying chores that we are forced to do should be as simple as easy as possible. It's bad enough this system is worse than alerts.

[FireSegment]

On 2020-05-26 at 2:39 PM, Sevek7 said:

Warframe is all about optimizing your time spent, such is the life of any free-to-play game. This is fine, but let's not use the word "elite" to refer to players who either happened to log in that week or happened to care about that particular extremely easy challenge. The "elite" challenges recently haven't been very elite at all . It seems obvious that all the nightwave rewards can be obtained in every season without ever needing to do an elite challenge (the last nightwave season could have been completed using only daily challenges! Skipping not just the regular weekly challenges but also the elite weekly challenges!). So why are the elite challenges so easy?

you realize that over half of the elite challenges are locked behind a lot of quests completion right?

Lua puzzle, Lich, kuva survival, Index, ESO, Sortie, Raijack, Grove Specter, Ropalolyst .. the quests and the grinds those challenges require from those who haven't reach them would not likely be completed with the week of the challenge if the player don't already have some progress in it if they haven't finish it

then stuff like Profit-Taker, Hydrolyst on another level because you won't even able to get to rank 5 solaris within the time limit, or go through the entire research for the tridolon fight and grind for the amp.

That leave only smission specific stuff like defense or survive 20-30 something challenges, kill 1.5k enemy or eximus, spy and capture challenge accessible for all level of players  (oh and the relic one)

So if the nightwave challenges is the first time a somewhat new player encounter a concept in warframe, there is a good chance that concept would consume the entire week for him to reach (and if he complete it in time, i bet it's make him feel pretty badass, at least for a little while)

On 2020-05-26 at 2:39 PM, Sevek7 said:

Look, I've long since given up on Warframe having any actual challenging content, but please let's not throw around the word "elite" like it means something. 

It means nothing. "Elite" in warframe means "you had enough time to grind this painfully easy stuff until you got the rewards!" Honestly I'm fine with the entire game being easy, but let's not make it all easy and still claim that there's elite challenges. Either make the "elite" challenges challenging (Things like: kill john prodman solo, complete a capture in under 30 seconds, complete 8 rounds of elite sanctuary onslaught without using any abilities or AOE weapons and melee weapons, collect all 8 syndicate medallions and complete the mission in under 3 minutes,  kill exploiter orb solo in under 13 minutes, capture a hydrolyst solo, etc... or a hundred other challenges that I would have serious difficulty but great enjoyment trying to do!) 

Of the challenges I just mentioned, I seriously doubt I would be able to complete any of them. But that's okay. I'll still get the nightwave rewards because the elite challenges are not required. I'm not sure exactly how this will be received, but the point I'm trying to make is that the screenshots I took above were from first attempts at completing a particular "elite" challenge. My idea of an "elite" challenge is something that everybody shoud fail on the first try, and then work to complete after several attempts / builds. 

So, my feedback with respect to "elite challenges" is to either:

1) Make them actually elite! Consider the suggestions mentioned above!

2) Rename them to something other than "elite challenges." Perhaps "Slightly harder but still very easy challenges" or "Conquer the boredom" challenges.

In 2) I'm being cynical of course! I'm sure other names can be used that would be less insulting. Nevertheless, I'm interested in what you all think about nightwave challenges being called "elite" when they're anything but. Please leave your replies below 🙂 

Treating skilled players favorable compare to normal players is a dead trap many other games that didn't inspire to be an esport has fall into. Warframe surely not trying to be one, evidence by the way DE purposefully adding cheesy tatic into the game or leaving them be for a long time if there was cheesy one discovered by the community (if they don't drastically shorten the grind).

The thing Waframe trying to do is to make you - the players feel as badass as possible, as long as possble, as often as possible, for as much players as possible  Even the "optimizing time spent" that you mention in the first line of your post is to serve the purpose of making you feel badass for discovering a method of doing so. In this view, the "as much players as possible" lead to my next point: 

- Nightwave challenges should be completed by the majority of players, even the elites one. The "challenge" for DE or the game is to make completing it feeling as badass for as many players as possible. It should not feel impossible for players that already complete almost all the major grind in the game without a good squad, that way newer player would already guaranteed to not bother with it - and that bad. Being a completionist and finish every challenge is another source to feel badass, it's part of the appeal for NW, those challenges are not mandatory, but it surely one step above being optional for a lot of players, (and any challenge you propose would be made worse by the one week time limit). 

The list of challenge you propose, frankly, feel completely coming from the player perspective without consideration neither for the game nor the other players with different skill level or play time constraints. Don't get me wrong, it look fun and enjoyable to discuss, but it feel like something a clan's warlord would make for it members as a test to join the inner cool-kids-club. (and i hoped that isn't where those coming from). 

Oh ... and the "elites" semantic one, i feel fine about it, but at the same time i wouldn't mind they change it into some name inspire by Nora Night theme (may be some of her song name for example). DE sure have enough weird name like "Clem" or "Bopp Pipp" to throw around.

[Sevek7]

23 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

you realize that over half of the elite challenges are locked behind a lot of quests completion right?

Lua puzzle, Lich, kuva survival, Index, ESO, Sortie, Raijack, Grove Specter, Ropalolyst .. the quests and the grinds those challenges require from those who haven't reach them would not likely be completed with the week of the challenge if the player don't already have some progress in it if they haven't finish it

then stuff like Profit-Taker, Hydrolyst on another level because you won't even able to get to rank 5 solaris within the time limit, or go through the entire research for the tridolon fight and grind for the amp.

That leave only smission specific stuff like defense or survive 20-30 something challenges, kill 1.5k enemy or eximus, spy and capture challenge accessible for all level of players  (oh and the relic one)

So if the nightwave challenges is the first time a somewhat new player encounter a concept in warframe, there is a good chance that concept would consume the entire week for him to reach (and if he complete it in time, i bet it's make him feel pretty badass, at least for a little while)

Treating skilled players favorable compare to normal players is a dead trap many other games that didn't inspire to be an esport has fall into. Warframe surely not trying to be one, evidence by the way DE purposefully adding cheesy tatic into the game or leaving them be for a long time if there was cheesy one discovered by the community (if they don't drastically shorten the grind).

The thing Waframe trying to do is to make you - the players feel as badass as possible, as long as possble, as often as possible, for as much players as possible  Even the "optimizing time spent" that you mention in the first line of your post is to serve the purpose of making you feel badass for discovering a method of doing so. In this view, the "as much players as possible" lead to my next point: 

- Nightwave challenges should be completed by the majority of players, even the elites one. The "challenge" for DE or the game is to make completing it feeling as badass for as many players as possible. It should not feel impossible for players that already complete almost all the major grind in the game without a good squad, that way newer player would already guaranteed to not bother with it - and that bad. Being a completionist and finish every challenge is another source to feel badass, it's part of the appeal for NW, those challenges are not mandatory, but it surely one step above being optional for a lot of players, (and any challenge you propose would be made worse by the one week time limit). 

The list of challenge you propose, frankly, feel completely coming from the player perspective without consideration neither for the game nor the other players with different skill level or play time constraints. Don't get me wrong, it look fun and enjoyable to discuss, but it feel like something a clan's warlord would make for it members as a test to join the inner cool-kids-club. (and i hoped that isn't where those coming from). 

Oh ... and the "elites" semantic one, i feel fine about it, but at the same time i wouldn't mind they change it into some name inspire by Nora Night theme (may be some of her song name for example). DE sure have enough weird name like "Clem" or "Bopp Pipp" to throw around.

Yup, strong agreement on all of the above! Especially the parts about treating skilled players differently than casual players and "cool kids clubs." Neither of those sound fun and would certainly detract from the game.

This entire thread is a monument to my misunderstanding 😞 . I read the nightwave tasks and saw some that said "elite" and I thought "oh these must be hard challenges!" When I discovered they were actually very easy challenges I came to the forums to ask why they are so weirdly easy. Turns out I was reading "elite" as "challenging" when it actually means "you have completed X quest or syndicate to unlock this content." I did a big facepalm when I realized my mistake!

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2020-05-26 at 3:54 AM, Iamabearlulz said:

Anybody who's completed the Starchart and achieved max rank with Syndicates should have no issues with the Elite Challenges, because they are the "Elites" that the new players look up to

This right here. 

IMO, anything that requires a huge amount of set up or game knowledge should be considered "elite".  Profit Taker isn't a hard fight for me.  But it's still "elite" because it literally requires max rank in Solaris United and completion of the 3 bounties prior to the fight bounty just to access it.  It might not be a hard fight for your average high level player but that doesn't change the fact that it's only available to those who have completed a very large portion of the game.

I see low level players still physically running through tile sets.  They bullet jump here and there, but they flat out cannot keep up with a high level player even in a slow frame that understands the parkour system and is used to all the map tiles.  Much less so if that player is in something like a Titania or Nova, but again, that requires having a specific frame and probably putting work into modding/forma for that frame.  Setup time.  If the challenges are all easy, it's because you're in the "elite" category that has all the set up done and understands the game well enough to do anything easily.

I honestly think they need to add more challenges like the speed cap.  I think more of the challenges we already have should be in the "elite" category, and not just due to setup time invested, but time spent on completing those challenges.  10 Nightmare missions is 10 missions of time for 4,500 standing which is less than half a rank.  An alert reward used to be a single mission.  The math there doesn't work out for me.

[Tinklzs]

On 2020-05-26 at 3:48 AM, Chewarette said:

Your proposal of Elite are no better than the current one.

I'm going to add to this.

In Payday 2 one of the hardest achievements to get is the Death Sentence: One Down. Hardest difficulty with the ability to 'die' once for that mission, no way to increase that threshold.

I've done all of them except the most recent heists, and it just limited you to specific builds, very very specific builds. And while it was challenging, it wasn't necessarily fun, just an obstacle with a specific set of items that could meet the requirements to complete it.

I don't think that's the way that Warframe should go for elite challenges, and it's difficult to add more 'meaningful' challenges in Warframe when the main structure of it is around casual "you're superman, go kill something".  And bringing down the capture time to ~30s (volt, gauss, titania) would just narrow down how many frames could actually perform. Or ESO without abilities (inaros), or a 60 minute survival without using life support (nekros, khora, hydroid).      

One of Warframe's most powerful attributes if you can (for the most part) bring any frame to anything and it be useful. The issue with this is how it was handled, due to how it was designed most things don't feel challenging because of how 'plateau'd" they are so that all frames can be 'equal' and useful during missions. That must be addressed before anything else that stems from it (like challenge) can be updated.