Relics Revised

[anarchy753]

Since "Warframe: Revised" is the big theme at the moment, does anyone else think relics should be rethought? I'm not saying rebuild the system from the ground up, but maybe just a shuffle of contents.

My main concern with the relic system is the ever-growing mass of random crap filling our inventories with needless clutter. With every prime addition up to 10 new relics come in. They don't really add individual farm time as all of an era come from one location, they just add clutter. Every new prime unvaulting event combines new frames, with brand new relics combining parts of the two like the new Trinity/Nova relics. This has gone on to the point that we have Neo S13 relics, naming them is redundant at this point because nobody can actually remember what's in anything even if they know the rare starts with an S.

For an example of what I believe is an exemplar relic, Baro brings the Axi A2 Relic which is the sole location of the Aklex Prime Link, and one of two places to get the Aklex Prime Blueprint. Point is, the relic is structured to contain the Aklex, the link, and the parts and blueprint of the Lex required to build the Aklex.

Would this be a better way of creating relics? Rather than a new prime frame coming out and requiring a common from a meso, 2 uncommons from a lith and a neo, and a rare on an axi, there would just be a, for example, "Titania Relic" containing 1-2 commons, an uncommon, and a rare piece of Titania.

Obviously different weapons and frames would all still have different numbers of required parts, the highest currently being 5 non-repeated parts on Cernos, Ballistica and Zhuge, along with Aklex and Akvasto. Since 4 is about average it would make sense to have 5 items per relic, with a forma filling the 5th slot as it does already. For weapons with less, like many secondaries and melees, something like riven slivers could be included.

Each new prime would only bring 3 new relics, one for the frame and 2 for weapons. Unvaultings would return 2 sets of 3 relics.

 

There are 2 main concerns I see with this idea. Firstly, how to convert players' existing relics into new ones. The fairest way would be to sum up the total number of parts for a given prime across currently known relics and convert that number into the relics for that item, however that would basically take your current relics and multiply them by 5-6.

Alternatively, the highest number you own of any piece of a prime could be turned into that relic. Ie, you have 5 relics with a common Nova systems, 6 with a common Nova neuroptics, 7 with an uncommon Nova blueprint and only 4 with a rare Nova chassis. After the change you would have 7 Nova relics. You would receive less chances to try for a Nova part, however every roll would guarantee you a Nova part, or a forma blueprint.

The second issue is eras, how to split relics between them. Would each relic simply belong to a different era? Titania is an Axi relic, while Corinth is a Neo and and Pangolin is a Meso. It would certainly leave options like making evergreen primes Lith relics. (Incidentally the "accidental vaultings" of evergreen rimes would be fixed with this system too.) Or would era be completely eliminated from the relic itself, and instead some other bonus like extra void traces be added to the higher difficulty of the mission. I'm sure for most players the era is already redundant past the point of where to farm them as the difficulty is far below what's considered 'challenging.'

 

TLDR:

I believe the game would be better, and simplified, if each relic contained parts from only one prime item.

This would reduce the clutter and buildup of endlessly growing relics.

It would be possible, though difficult, to convert existing relics into simplified ones at a fair rate.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

That could make sense.  I would just be scared to death what it would mean for farming relics.  If I am after some new prime then I have to farm the same spot over and over and over and over again ???   Like you said primes are spread between lith and axi.  Thats a hurdle newbies and lazy mofos have to jump that helps create a market, people who cant or wont go for axi are stuck depending on others....  What if your one relic for everything new is an Axi ?  Are they going to put a new prime in a lith???   

(It could add something new to the game... you talked about Baro selling aklex/volt relics.  What if they added a new currency type.   You turn in ANY relic for new currency.  All "current" relics could be bought with said new currency (lith = 1 axi = 4).  This would let people burn off excess relics to, would also let you farm any relics and then go get the ones you really want.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My idea to revise relics is attacking it from the other angle and making it easier to burn through our stockpile. 

The effecient way to farm relics is to find 3 other people who want to farm the exact same part as you.  To use 4 of the same relic of the same refinement.  This is one of the biggest log jams in the relic system.   Within 1 week the demand for new stuff goes down almost to zero, 2 weeks and your going to be sitting in chat for a looooong time trying to form groups....

So my idea.... remove the need for the 3 other people who all want the same thing.

Player A = Axi S7 intact

Player B = Axi S7 rad

Player C = Axi A6 rad

Player D = Axi V7 rad

You still group up to pop relics.  But each person can bring whatever relic they want 4 whatever fissure your running (lith still have to be lith, meso to meso, etc  that stays).  At the end of the fissure.....  For every player who collected 10 reactant, that person counts as having YOUR relic.  So if Players B-D al get 10 reactant then Player A would see x4 Axi S7 intact rolls.  Player B would see x4 Axi S7 rads.   Player C would see x4 axi A6 rad.  Player D would see x4 Axi V7 rad.  

If player D was a newb and didnt collect 10 reactant, he would get 0 rolls.  Everyone else would get x3 rolls.  If you only had 3 people in the group people would only get 3 rolls.   (but I dont see squad size ever being a problem again with this system as I think relic fissures will become ALOT more active)

This doesnt do ANYTHING to the odds of finding prime parts that we cant already do.  It just removes the need to find other people to run the same thing.   You can work towards whatever primes you want and never have trouble finding a group for it.  

------------

One thing people said about my system is that part of the fun of random squads is sometimes people using good relics or outdated relics and getting stuff they were not expecting.  Sure, thats a thing.  I do that all the time when farming forma.  My method would KILL this.  You would only be able to get stuff you have relics for.  You could still trade for relics you dont have and it would make it a hell of a lot easier to actually finish those primes you missed out on.   

I think though in the long run my method far outweighs the loss of getting random stuff from random groups.   

Edited May 30, 2020 by (PS4)AbBaNdOn_

[BlackCat500]

I'm all for simplifying the relics in this manner. Not because I am annoyed by the visual clutter (since we do have a search function), but to make matchmaking simpler. People recruit for certain relics (for example, Axi A2) but do not mention for what part. Even if you know and you play a different relic that contains the same part, all hell will break loose. Even if you let them know beforehand, sometimes they will still freak out. So typically, even if I have old relics for a recently unvaulted thing, I have to farm relics anew for this reason.

 

Also, yes, finding a party for old parts is hard, but that is because the new system has such good droprates. Radshares guarantee you're done within usually at most 10 runs, sometimes on the first go even. But letting one person play a relic and having everyone else's relics count as the same will make things even easier and not help finding a party at all, it will just make things even easier to farm, so that is a hard no for me. I don't like grind, but the current system is already very lenient in comparison to the void keys back in the days. Try getting your item in an endless run to wave 280 because some defense on rotation C has like a 2% chance to give you what you desire. Let's not also skip the need for everyone to farm the same relic for radshares on top of that, because this still guarantees 4 shots at the same thing at the price of one. If such a system was really put into place, you would need to make sure the one person who wants this kind of a drop table to happen would need to farm 4x the amount of relics than if he went solo to achieve this in order to offset this. This way, it is the one person who needs to do all of the work, rather than all 4 people, so the actual amount of work does not change. It just gets shifted to one person who willingly wanted this in order to get only the drops they desire.

Edited May 30, 2020 by BlackCat500

[anarchy753]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_ said:

That could make sense.  I would just be scared to death what it would mean for farming relics.  If I am after some new prime then I have to farm the same spot over and over and over and over again ???   Like you said primes are spread between lith and axi.  Thats a hurdle newbies and lazy mofos have to jump that helps create a market, people who cant or wont go for axi are stuck depending on others....  What if your one relic for everything new is an Axi ?  Are they going to put a new prime in a lith???   

I don't think it would really change much in the slightest. When a new batch of primes comes out, they spread them anyway. Titania is on one of each era, as is Corinth, and Pangolin is on one of each of the three higher tiers.

Instead of farming ~3 different axis, neos, mesos and 2 liths for parts of 3 different things. (11 different relics for 3 prime weapons, all diluted with existing parts.) You would instead spend your time farming ~3-4 of 3 different eras still, except they would be the same relics. ie, Rather than 1x Axi T5 + 1xAxi G4 + 1x Axi T4 you'd simply be farming 4 Axi Titania relics, numbers multiplied for attempts obviously.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

On 2020-05-30 at 7:53 AM, BlackCat500 said:

 But letting one person play a relic and having everyone else's relics count as the same will make things even easier and not help finding a party at all, it will just make things even easier to farm, so that is a hard no for me.

It wont help find a party?  Any random pug will turn into an ideal relic popping party.  Fissures will become super active with everyone working on different primes.  You would almost always have a group as soon as you Q up. 

Let's not also skip the need for everyone to farm the same relic for radshares on top of that, because this still guarantees 4 shots at the same thing at the price of one.

Curretly you get 4 rolls for one... sure everyone now has to have the same relic.... in my new system other people are going to be going after whatever prime they wish to be going after.  So they are still farming relics they just dont have to be the same ones.  They stlll have to refine them.

If such a system was really put into place, you would need to make sure the one person who wants this kind of a drop table to happen would need to farm 4x the amount of relics than if he went solo to achieve this in order to offset this.

I have thought about making the relic process solo and have had this thought about the x4 relics.  But this would require major changes to make feasable.  I like my idea alot more.  Still running in groups, still needing competent players,  just allowing everyone to work on whatever relic they choose to be working on.  I do not think the amount of work going into getting your prime changes in the slightest bit.   If you use a Radiant relic and everyone else is running intacts obviously they did less work but they wont have the same shot at rares as you do.   But I imagine the case of radiant relics being used would go UP.  People would be doing more work.  I think intact and flawed would go up as well.  I think people would start burning off their stockpile of relics.  

 

On 2020-05-30 at 8:16 AM, anarchy753 said:

I don't think it would really change much in the slightest. When a new batch of primes comes out, they spread them anyway. Titania is on one of each era, as is Corinth, and Pangolin is on one of each of the three higher tiers.

Instead of farming ~3 different axis, neos, mesos and 2 liths for parts of 3 different things. (11 different relics for 3 prime weapons, all diluted with existing parts.) You would instead spend your time farming ~3-4 of 3 different eras still, except they would be the same relics. ie, Rather than 1x Axi T5 + 1xAxi G4 + 1x Axi T4 you'd simply be farming 4 Axi Titania relics, numbers multiplied for attempts obviously.

Look at the pic you posted earlier.  You said thats how you want all primes to be more or less??   In order to get an Aklex the only way to get it would be to farm for Axi...ALOT of axi.  Which means your going to be doing either a crapton of lua disruptions or a crapton of tier 5 bounties.

Lith relics from bounties would be a nightmare.   But like I said what kinda primes would DE stick in Lith?? 

[anarchy753]

16 hours ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_ said:

 

Look at the pic you posted earlier.  You said thats how you want all primes to be more or less??   In order to get an Aklex the only way to get it would be to farm for Axi...ALOT of axi.  Which means your going to be doing either a crapton of lua disruptions or a crapton of tier 5 bounties.

Lith relics from bounties would be a nightmare.   But like I said what kinda primes would DE stick in Lith?? 

You're saying that like you don't already have to farm a heap of every single type of relic every time a prime access rotates. It's exactly the same amounts of each era relic to get all the primes, the only difference is the distribution of rewards. As it is already, you don't just get those 3 existing axi relics by default. In order to get all of Titania Prime access items, you need 3 different Axi relics. In this rework you would need 3-4 Axi relics, except that they would be the same name.

And it would be very easy to put primes into the lith section. All of the evergreen primes would easily belong there, like Lex, (Ak)Bronco, Paris, Bo. Most frames don't have a mastery requirement, so there's no harm going there, and many weapons have a fairly low requirement.

[Marine027]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb anarchy753:

And it would be very easy to put primes into the lith section. All of the evergreen primes would easily belong there, like Lex, (Ak)Bronco, Paris, Bo. Most frames don't have a mastery requirement, so there's no harm going there, and many weapons have a fairly low requirement.

Actually it isn't as easy, if you do that Lith will be dead due people not wanting certain things, the way they mix drops in other relics makes sure new and older player mix in sessions and can choose from rewards instead, if you force certain items in only one era you lock them essencially out and limit players that way.

Certain people already not want to play certain game modes in fissures, what you think happens if you put the "valuable" things only in high fissures instead, it will dim the starchart even more, only farming Axi while lower relics not get any interesst anymore.

On top of it will overflow thingseven more with Lith beeing everywhere already, makign cheap itesm only more cheaper due new players will get it even faster aswell due the amount, it would simply cause a imbalance gameplay and items wise vs the effort. Because this is the main point of them, effort is equal to each items mostly, not just better items in Axi high level and weak stuff without MR in Lith.

It feels more like you want to feel special that you earned new and shiny tihngs really then a real rework to relics.

[anarchy753]

18 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Actually it isn't as easy, if you do that Lith will be dead due people not wanting certain things, the way they mix drops in other relics makes sure new and older player mix in sessions and can choose from rewards instead, if you force certain items in only one era you lock them essencially out and limit players that way.

Certain people already not want to play certain game modes in fissures, what you think happens if you put the "valuable" things only in high fissures instead, it will dim the starchart even more, only farming Axi while lower relics not get any interesst anymore.

On top of it will overflow thingseven more with Lith beeing everywhere already, makign cheap itesm only more cheaper due new players will get it even faster aswell due the amount, it would simply cause a imbalance gameplay and items wise vs the effort. Because this is the main point of them, effort is equal to each items mostly, not just better items in Axi high level and weak stuff without MR in Lith.

It feels more like you want to feel special that you earned new and shiny tihngs really then a real rework to relics.

Mastery rank doesn't actually correlate with strength. As long as there's new stuff in lith relics occasionally, there'll still be reason to go there.

[Chu-Chu]

I agree with op that relics will need a revise at some point, because adding more and more relics will only make it harder for DE to manage them.

While I don't exactly know what the best way to re-arrange rewards is, there still is a lot of clutter in the drop tables.

What I've always thought would be a nice idea was to take some drops and move them in place of useless rotation rewards on the starchart/the bounties. You don't need to outright remove them and make a node the singular place to farm a certain prime part, and even if it's just prime junk I'd argue it'd be a nicer reward instead of what we have sometimes (for example Vitality, Magazine Wrap, Trick mag on Xini Eris).

[Steel_Rook]

While this may be an unpopular opinion, I've more or less given up on Void Relics by this point. Eventually, I had to concede that they aren't there for me as a consumer wanting the parts to build my own stuff. They're for the Secondary Market people grinding parts to sell for Plat to people like me who've given up on the grind ourselves. As such, I doubt we're ever going to see much in the way of quality of life improvements with them. The point of that system is to push engagement, and those who grind for items to sell are always going to be far more engaged with it than the plebs among us just grinding the bare minimum to get the next new shiny.

Personally, my biggest beef with Void Relics is the Void Traces system. Want a gold drop? You're going to have to grind a lot for the relics, then you're going to have to grind a lot of relics... Oh, and don't forget to ALSO grind a lot of Void Fissures not opening those relics to build up the Void Traces necessary. I'd personally love to just get rid of the system and make all Relics Radiant, but it's not going to happen. I'd like to be able to dissolve unwanted Relics for Void Traces but that's also not going to happen. I don't really see much change on the horizon when Void Relics do their job as well as they do.