The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[nigelkoning12]

Hallo ik zoek warframe friends op pc naam nigelkoning12 nederland 

[Tenc-w]

My Helminth is excited too, even if it does look like a sock puppet.

[(XBOX)Swordsman993]

This will be intended to give those of us on the Steel path an edge. I'm personally really looking forward to experimenting with this and it means i can FINALLY give Trinity some Offence! 

 

[(XBOX)Baron Kit]

23 hours ago, (PS4)Keiji_Haku said:

Its hilarious when people think a 34% roar is mefiocre.

Then they realize its applied to total damage and not base, and it becomes stupid amazing.

Absolutely nobody gets that every damage buff for the most part anyway works off of base values while roar does not and is applied after all other values and buffs. At 100% rhino roar doubles ALL dmg

 

[(XBOX)darkexodiax2]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Swordsman993 said:

This will be intended to give those of us on the Steel path an edge. I'm personally really looking forward to experimenting with this and it means i can FINALLY give Trinity some Offence! 

 

See that's how u can tell a trin main(I feel u bro)

[CopperBezel]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)Swordsman993 said:

This will be intended to give those of us on the Steel path an edge. I'm personally really looking forward to experimenting with this and it means i can FINALLY give Trinity some Offence! 

Yep. In addition to the frames I have cooking right now to feed the Helminth when it comes is a Trinity Prime. I'd never bothered to get her until now, because with the right offensive or CC ability, I'll actually be able to do something with her other than Defection and keeping lower MR allies alive.

1 hour ago, 999x999 said:

I think its incredible that Rhino’s third ability [Roar] can be shared.
In today's environment, players use Rhino mostly for [Iron Skin] or [Roar].
If [Roar]] can be shared to other warframes, it will greatly reduce the chance of rhino appearing.
In the future, everyone will say "we need a warframe with [Roar]" instead of "we need a Strength rhino".
I think this needs to be taken seriously.
For example, can you imagine Trinity's [Energy Vampire] can be shared to other warframes.
I would like DE to consider this.

Energy Vampire is an absurdly OP ability on any other frame, and it exists only because she has no offensive abilities to which to apply that energy. Obviously, even that now comes with a caveat. A better comparison would be Wisp's Reservoirs, which are the single thing you use the frame for and a big part of her identity as a frame, but wouldn't become more or less broken by being paired with any other particular ability. (Or Mesa's Peacemaker, and so on.) I don't think the rest of Rhino's kit is restricted to make up for Roar, or that he's a particularly restrictive frame to use. But to the extent that he is, I think that's more an indication that his Charge and Stomp need some adjustment to be more interesting in play.

Even at that, though, I don't think Roar quite lives up to that description. A frame with Reservoirs and Peacemaker at the same time would be ... significantly more overperforming than any frame you get by adding Roar. 

I don't doubt Roar being independent of Rhino is going to make squad compositions for some specific scenarios more flexible, but I don't think that's some kind of crisis. It's just that, more flexible. 

Basically, if you really think that Roar is the only thing that makes Rhino worthwhile, then having this option can only be good for you. You can pick the frame you really wanted and put Roar on them, and wait for Rhino to be so unused that he gets a rework and becomes interesting to play. I don't think either of those things is going to happen in reality; I think you're going to keep using Rhino because you actually like him and do use his other abilities, and he won't get a rework and will stay boring. = P

(I should say, though, that while I don't think Roar is equivalent to Peacemaker or Reservoirs in terms of use cases or in terms of being the frame's whole deal, I can easily picture it becoming the new meta simply because people think it ought to, and don't actually test things. I can picture whole squads showing up in public carrying Roar three months from now because YouTube told them it was good.) 

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

What does this mean for Shooting Gallery? It's a damage-buffing ability that is not listed as having this limitation and can be donated, allowing it to potentially be stacked on those same frames. Arguably it's in the same boat as Chroma's Vex Armor, as a semi-offensive semi-defensive party buff.

There are a lot of abilities in that list that directly or indirectly increase damage. DE is being selective, and they've been explicitly clear about which ones they're selecting. Gauss, Wisp, and Volt have varying combinations of fire rate, melee attack, and reload speed as abilities, which directly increase the DPS of weapons, but they're not considered in this list either. The elemental damage buffs from 1 augments are also not being considered. The rule is "abilities similar to Eclipse and Roar", which Shooting Gallery, a defensive ability that includes a small additive bonus to damage mods, is not. 

[selig_fay]

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Baron Kit said:

Absolutely nobody gets that every damage buff for the most part anyway works off of base values while roar does not and is applied after all other values and buffs. At 100% rhino roar doubles ALL dmg

You omit many things.

For example, Chroma acts like a Serration. But you also forget that Serration is also affected by elemental mods and multishot and crit. Thus, Chroma simply refuses to Serration and significantly increase its damage with the help of other mods.

For example:

100 + 165% (Serration) + 550% (Chroma) = 715 * 1.9 (multishot) = 1358.5+ 90% (elemental) = 2581.5

100 + 550% (Chroma) = 650* 1.9 (multishot) = 1235+ 90% (elemental)  +90%(elemental)  = 3458

Shock Trooper acts the same way, only it is affected by Serration, multishot, and crit. And here, too, you can put less elemental damage in favor of other characteristics.

100 + 165% (Serration)  = 265* 1.9 (multishot) = 503.5 + 90% (elemental) + 200% (Shock Trooper) = 1963.65

100 + 165% (Serration)  = 265* 2.5 (multishot) = 662.5 + 200% (Shock Trooper) = 1987.5

Yes, Roar works very simply.

100 + 165% (Serration)  = 265* 1.9 (multishot) = 503.5 + 90% (elemental) = 956,65 * 2 (Roar +100%) = 1913.3

All this taking into account the fact that the all frames has 200% strength. 

 

[linn4you]

Do we get Nightmare Path with the update? Steel Path will be ez with Helminth Chrysalis

[Zilotz]

5 hours ago, Sahansral said:

More like this one:

The price for pizza is miscalculated and way too low by a good margin. So everyone and his/her grandma orders only pizza, making having a menu card kind of pointless (and a bit unhealthy for all parties involved).
So the restaurant should recalculate prices accross the different dishes, making all dishes viable choices for many different kind of customers.
 

Nope, in your thought people can still have the pizza just with different price.

So your thought is applicable to riven disposition changes - you have around the same but weaker(like for the same price pizza is smaller but it is still a pizza).

But look at Xoris for example - people wanted it for ONE reason it was good at and DE did make that ONLY use of it impossible.

So it's not about price, after the change nobody wants it anymore after investing time/formas/catalyst in it.

[CopperBezel]

12 minutes ago, Zilotz said:

But look at Xoris for example - people wanted it for ONE reason it was good at and DE did make that ONLY use of it impossible.

So it's not about price, after the change nobody wants it anymore after investing time/formas/catalyst in it.

What they wanted was to make use of an unintended exploit, one that should have been incredibly obvious to DE even when I account for my bias as a Khora stan. But I like DE and I like their game. It's not hard to forgive the oversight.

In the hypothetical scenario where Whipclaw (and Gladiator mods with Exalteds) was the intended use of the Xoris, that's just a very silly mechanic; equip this dopey looking melee weapon, and your Whipclaw (/Iron Staff) gets better at the cost of having a normal melee weapon.

That silliness is true to form, because I have a kama with a Whipclaw-optimized riven for just such purposes, with a bunch of forma on. But that's also dumb, and I won't throw a tissy if DE bans that too.

[BLACKCAT1945]

Developers come up with a great idea and then limit them  why 

[Zilotz]

33 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

What they wanted was to make use of an unintended exploit, one that should have been incredibly obvious to DE even when I account for my bias as a Khora stan. But I like DE and I like their game. It's not hard to forgive the oversight.

In the hypothetical scenario where Whipclaw (and Gladiator mods with Exalteds) was the intended use of the Xoris, that's just a very silly mechanic; equip this dopey looking melee weapon, and your Whipclaw (/Iron Staff) gets better at the cost of having a normal melee weapon.

That silliness is true to form, because I have a kama with a Whipclaw-optimized riven for just such purposes, with a bunch of forma on. But that's also dumb, and I won't throw a tissy if DE bans that too.

It is not an oversight i feel bad about. Oversights are okay, we all do them.

It is the way of dealing with it - they could make something like innate +15 sec combo timer for frames with abilities that require it(3 sec more than Body Count) but they decided to make the weapon completely trashy, with abilities it works worse than any other weapon after that change.

So it's not about making a very powerful weapon more in line with others, it's about making weapon that had a use lose it's sense fully.

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

Energy Vampire is an absurdly OP ability on any other frame, and it exists only because she has no offensive abilities to which to apply that energy. Obviously, even that now comes with a caveat. A better comparison would be Wisp's Reservoirs, which are the single thing you use the frame for and a big part of her identity as a frame, but wouldn't become more or less broken by being paired with any other particular ability. (Or Mesa's Peacemaker, and so on.) I don't think the rest of Rhino's kit is restricted to make up for Roar, or that he's a particularly restrictive frame to use. But to the extent that he is, I think that's more an indication that his Charge and Stomp need some adjustment to be more interesting in play.

It's the exact same thing with Roar.

Roar being transferable is absolutely not okay, for 3 reasons:

Roar is incongruent to how most frames's kits are designed and balanced, and having it be transferable violates how the ability itself is balanced. Roar allows any given frame to unconditionally double their damage output if built even somewhat properly. On Rhino, this is fine, because his other 3 abilities are all utility and not typically used for damage (except Stomp which has some application as a trash clear). Conversely, many frames are presumably balanced around the fact that they do NOT have access to an unconditional damage increase unless provided to them by a teammate. Assigning Roar arbitrarily, however, breaks this basic design principle.

Roar is heads, tails, leaps, and bounds better than pretty much any ability on this list. Except for the special cases (already a symptom of terrible design) where you can't transfer Roar, is there really any frame in the game that would choose some okay-but-not-astounding CC or utility over the ability to just flat-out deal more damage and presumably directly contribute to clearing a mission faster?

Making Roar transferable will more or less render Rhino himself irrelevant. Yes, Iron Skin and Stomp are nice, but I'm pretty sure Rhino's main utility and his contribution to any given mission objective is his ability to drastically boost the damage output of his entire team including himself, and that function can now be lifted from him and assigned to another frame which will then not only be able to do his job, but whatever job they already natively do.

Roar is literally a role-defining talent which has no place being transferable freely at all let alone being on the same list of options as things like Airburst or friggin' Shock.

This isn't my argument, someone else wrote this and described my thoughts perfectly.
 

 

[elZach]

Roar is heavily overrated in this conversation. The instances of gameplay where too little damage is a problem for frames is extremely niche compared to the overall gameplay loop of warframe. Doesnt matter much of the time if you overkill a thing by a magnitude of 2 or 20.

[.durandle.]

2 hours ago, linn4you said:

Do we get Nightmare Path with the update? Steel Path will be ez with Helminth Chrysalis

steel path is easy as it is, just a little more tedious than regular solar map outside of a few bosses

[(NSW)Katsuro]

seems fairly balanced to me

roar, warcry, and eclipse with total eclipse augment can be cast on allies so it cant affect balance than our already 4 man step ups that nuke everything in sight like in scarlet spear event but just make solo play more enjoyable for players that dont like host migration.

Same for shock trooper and smite infusion can be cast on allies but requires sacrificing a slot for an augment

best thing about this system is nezha firewalker on gauss for back to the future DeLorean time machine memes lol

[linn4you]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb .durandle.:

steel path is easy as it is, just a little more tedious than regular solar map outside of a few bosses

and it will get even easier with helminth chrysalis right?
So what will DE do? do we get Nightmare Steel path or increased difficulty for the regular SP?

I mean Excalibur with WarCry?...

if there is no challenge/difficulty at all, it quickly gets repetitive and boring or even annoying right?
I´m concerned, that can´t be healthy for warframe

[Doomakia]

On 2020-08-12 at 7:12 PM, Cryonet2 said:

*even more lens flaring from me*

You just broke the lens why have you done this

[selig_fay]

8 minutes ago, linn4you said:

if there is no challenge/difficulty at all, it quickly gets repetitive and boring or even annoying right?

I´m concerned, that can´t be healthy for warframe

I am concerned that you find steel path difficult.

I want to add that the developers stated that steel path is not an endgame.

[linn4you]

vor 1 Minute schrieb selig_fay:

I am concerned that you find steel path difficult.

dude... enough tenno struggle with it
the majority isn´t maxed out and has everything...
i´m a veteran and i play since cbt, warframe has no difficulty, but it´s not about me...

[selig_fay]

Just now, linn4you said:

dude... enough tenno struggle with it

the majority isn´t maxed out and has everything...
i´m a veteran and i play since cbt, warframe has no difficulty, but it´s not about me...

And about whom? About poor people with MK1 weapons who won't even have access to this system?

[999x999]

I'm not saying that might break the game balance when [Roar] can be used by other warframes .
I want to express Rhino can use [Roar] and [Rhino Stomp] to contribute to the team, especially [Roar] is more common. 
In this situation, isn't [Roar] a representative ability for Rhino? If this ability can appear on anyone, is it a bit unfair to rhinos?

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, 999x999 said:

In this situation, isn't [Roar] a representative ability for Rhino? If this ability can appear on anyone, is it a bit unfair to rhinos?

And you can look at it from the other side. Everything is a Rhino signature ability, except Roar. Let's go through each one. Rhino charge uses the weight of the suit to break through enemies. Rhino is heavy, so it counts as a signature ability. The same goes for Rhino stomp, where you use the weight of your suit to create a powerful CC. Iron skin strengthens your suit.

Roar is the ability to scream. It has nothing to do with suit. I think that's the logic that works here. Everyone can scream, but only Rhino has its suit.

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

7 minutes ago, 999x999 said:

I'm not saying that might break the game balance when [Roar] can be used by other warframes .
I want to express Rhino can use [Roar] and [Rhino Stomp] to contribute to the team, especially [Roar] is more common. 
In this situation, isn't [Roar] a representative ability for Rhino? If this ability can appear on anyone, is it a bit unfair to rhinos?

Yes, it's also unfair to Valkyr's and they both go against the clear blueprint they intended for the system. Roar falls directly in line with the "No Desecrate" line they said during the Tennocon stream. If Nekros gave Desecrate, what would happen to Nekros?

If memory servers me right, Rebecca also said when she was explaining Zephyr that if she gave Turbulence instead of Airburst there will be too little going for her and little reason to pick her and that's exactly whats going to happen.

[linn4you]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

And about whom? About poor people with MK1 weapons who won't even have access to this system?

the majority are casuals as far as i know, but it´s on DE to decide that not on you or me, they meassure it and have the data
but we have to agree that there must be a reason to do the whole starchart again, if the difficulty drops even further, it will be backtracking and time sonsuming mr farming