Ivara Piercing navigator is just useless

[Orakan]

On 2020-08-16 at 2:41 AM, bibmobello said:

1)After the melee rework this mod is just useless, Nowadays Max 50% crit bonus is just a joke and you have to hit the enemies to reach 50%. Remove the limit on the max critical chance and add a status chance bonus as well because for now this mod is just trash.

2)I thought Artemis Bow was a bow but it can't use split flights, weird... Let her use split flights because her "ultimate fashion" bow can't kill a f**k on SP index...

 

I still don't understand how do you design the frame abilities, do you throw the dices?

Till now, If you have to aim, spend a lot of energy and reflex then it will deal deal less damage while if you have to press just a button or  moving randomly the mouse you can deal million of damage...

Hmm you appreantly didn't know that 50 percent crit chance is a flat additive amount. Besides piercing navigator combined with empowered quiver is great for disturption endurance runs. You can even one shot 800 level enemies with a smilar build to eidolon ivara build. 

Trust me mate if you will try create synergies about how to use a warframe on which stiuations you will be more relax.

[bibmobello]

2 hours ago, Orakan said:

Hmm you appreantly didn't know that 50 percent crit chance is a flat additive amount. Besides piercing navigator combined with empowered quiver is great for disturption endurance runs. You can even one shot 800 level enemies with a smilar build to eidolon ivara build. 

Trust me mate if you will try create synergies about how to use a warframe on which stiuations you will be more relax.

I wrote that i was testing different techniques to proper balance a different king of gameplay. I already wrote that even +50% before mods is not enough to kill some enemies  in a proper way instead to just spamming E.

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

On 2020-08-16 at 11:05 PM, DatDarkOne said:

It kinda already does.  You just have to be good(correction:Really good) at controlling it.  The Arca Plasmor projectile was extremely easy to control with Navigator to cause all kinds of havok.  Sadly, DE removed the ability to control it Arca Plasmor, Sonicor, and similar types as well.  You can thank a certain YT video for that one.  

I was thinking more on the line of marking targets and the arrow zips through the enemies' heads. Also would be nice if the navigator was much easier to steer and aim (could also be that I am not the best at the game)

[bibmobello]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

I was thinking more on the line of marking targets and the arrow zips through the enemies' heads. Also would be nice if the navigator was much easier to steer and aim (could also be that I am not the best at the game)

Yes at the current state navigator is just an ability for sadomasochistic players overall with weapons like the glaive auto aiming enemies and many other numerous bugs. the Falcor for example in indoor environments it's totally unusable thanks the stupid hit box hitting every wall and being unable to enter inside doorways .

At the beginning navigator was able to stop projectiles mid air then it has been removed but using some stupid bug trick...

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2020-08-17 at 3:02 AM, taiiat said:

i blame that on the Damage scaling of Navigator being so convoluted and finicky, for seemingly no reason since AoE spam Abilities never have any of those sorts of complications.

  That's less 'navigator' and more 'Ivara's entire kit design'. Drawbacks and limitations just for the sake of it.

On 2020-08-17 at 4:05 AM, DatDarkOne said:

It kinda already does.  You just have to be good(correction:Really good) at controlling it.  The Arca Plasmor projectile was extremely easy to control with Navigator to cause all kinds of havok.  Sadly, DE removed the ability to control it Arca Plasmor, Sonicor, and similar types as well.  You can thank a certain YT video for that one.  

You're limited by the growing energy-per-second cost over time, and the fact that (even with the augment now adding extra) punch-through is definitely limited.

If the energy cost was static (which is fine, you're immobile and channelling anyway) and the projectile was given infinite enemy punch-through (not terrain PT, just units, so you're not flying it out of bounds all day) then it would make a very Yondu arrow. 

Extra granularity of speed control would certainly help too.

 

Personally, other than the occasional meme usage, Navigator is most useful for getting Sleep Arrows from A to B, even when B is that one interception point hidden behind 12 walls and 5 corridors from the one you're capturing at the moment.

It's sad that the Zenistar is useless now, even without actively flying it around with Nav I can't even niche-build an expensive max-multiplier Navigator just to 'charge it up' then let it sit for a sensible duration in a choke-point for protection. RIP Zenny.

[bibmobello]

5 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

  That's less 'navigator' and more 'Ivara's entire kit design'. Drawbacks and limitations just for the sake of it.

You're limited by the growing energy-per-second cost over time, and the fact that (even with the augment now adding extra) punch-through is definitely limited.

If the energy cost was static (which is fine, you're immobile and channelling anyway) and the projectile was given infinite enemy punch-through (not terrain PT, just units, so you're not flying it out of bounds all day) then it would make a very Yondu arrow. 

Extra granularity of speed control would certainly help too.

 

Personally, other than the occasional meme usage, Navigator is most useful for getting Sleep Arrows from A to B, even when B is that one interception point hidden behind 12 walls and 5 corridors from the one you're capturing at the moment.

It's sad that the Zenistar is useless now, even without actively flying it around with Nav I can't even niche-build an expensive max-multiplier Navigator just to 'charge it up' then let it sit for a sensible duration in a choke-point for protection. RIP Zenny.

You need a specific build to use the navigator as main ability, the trick is to use continuity instead of Primed continuity because with streamline and fleeting expertise you just need that for a max efficiency prowl.

The problem is another, few weapons are able to use it and most of them are just clunky. The glaive for example has auto aim even using navigator giving sometime a terrible headache. The falcor has a terrible hitbox and hits walls most of the time instead of enemies.

The contagion is useless with this Augment because it disappears few seconds later you hit an enemy. Even in the simulacrum it's hard to hit more than 2 or 3 enemies but if they are in a row. It doesn't get the +400% bonus after 30m  and to be it doesn't even get the punchthrough bonus.

 Concentrated arrow  can't use this mod(because it doesn't get any punchthrough) and  it has innate multishot instead to be a CONCENTRATED ARROW...

Some weapon like the charged larkspur and many others are bugged(or probably a cheap solution to avoid to abuse it), if they hit something they will not be able to hit anything later.

A simple  solution can be  adding a timer after you get the max piercing navigator bonus(that should have even  a +50% status base).

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

  That's less 'navigator' and more 'Ivara's entire kit design'. Drawbacks and limitations just for the sake of it.

meh, other than Prowl draining Energy per hit (and so Arc Traps can Drain like 1/3 of your Energy Bar before the door its behind is even done opening, and Et Cetera) plus the really convoluted way Navigator scales the Damage Multiplier - Ivaras' Abilities are intelligently designed and offer pros and cons depending on how you Mod, giving you choices.

that's exactly what i could ask for Abilities to do.

[DatDarkOne]

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You're limited by the growing energy-per-second cost over time, and the fact that (even with the augment now adding extra) punch-through is definitely limited.

This has never really been a problem for me whenever I use Navigator.  My main build has great efficiency, power strength, and an outrageous energy pool.  I also never saw the point of using the augment for Navigator.  It just truly didn't seem like a decent enough change for the mod slot IMO.  

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

 That's less 'navigator' and more 'Ivara's entire kit design'. Drawbacks and limitations just for the sake of it.

As for this one, I agree with what @taiiat said above.  Most of Ivara's "drawbacks" can only be considered such if you're racing other players, etc.  Since I play her solo so much, I barely noticed them or adjusted my build with them in mind.  

edit:  Then again my viewpoint on this might be a tad bit tainted as the over 4+ years I've been playing, over 84% of that time/usage is all Ivara/Prime.  

[TheLexiConArtist]

49 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This has never really been a problem for me whenever I use Navigator.  My main build has great efficiency, power strength, and an outrageous energy pool.  I also never saw the point of using the augment for Navigator.  It just truly didn't seem like a decent enough change for the mod slot IMO. 

Well, I was saying that more in the context of going full Yondu with it over a prolonged period, it's less of a problem if you're using it in smaller bursts than seeking to hold one projectile out forever.

But you can't cite one personal mod build that works to mitigate the core issues of an ability and say that means the issues don't exist. An example from another frame would be Trinity's Link - its base duration and range limitation (to an extent, needing to be linked to an enemy to access the protections) are actually quite poor compared to similar tools in other kits, but going heavy into those stats happens to suit building her in general, so it's naturally brought up to a usable 'normal' but never excels.
The cost scaling still exists, even if you happen to use Flow. and high efficiency. If you wanted to build it for strength, using the effective-inefficiency mods that do so, the cost ramp still limits usage more than necessary. If you don't happen to be into slotting Flow mods, that unjustifiable, indirect inefficiency starts to matter.

It doesn't typically matter to me, either, since I favour using Nav less for damage and more for its utility, quick redirects in-flight, but I've tried other builds and noticed the problem lurking.

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

As for this one, I agree with what @taiiat said above.  Most of Ivara's "drawbacks" can only be considered such if you're racing other players, etc.  Since I play her solo so much, I barely noticed them or adjusted my build with them in mind.  

edit:  Then again my viewpoint on this might be a tad bit tainted as the over 4+ years I've been playing, over 84% of that time/usage is all Ivara/Prime.  

We've invariably gone over this before, you and I, but they're definitely there. You've perhaps just internalised them over time, in a sort of Stockholm Syndrome-like acceptance.

The base stats of Cloak and Sleep Arrows are absolutely a situation as described above with Trinity's Link. They are objectively terrible, but build up to a usable 'normal'. Quiver being a first ability with multiple tools was.. almost arguably a partial justification for this, but then you look at Protea now and see that her grenades not only have double the base radius of Cloak and sit just below Sleep, but she throws them in multiples to further extend coverage - a feat Ivara can now access outside of conclave, but even then only at the expense of extra energy and an augment slot. Duration is similarly quite mediocre for the Quiver arrows, and again as a comparable first-ability, Protea's grenade durations notably exceed Sleep by one-third and have a minor 1-second edge over Cloak, so that's not really justified by its slot. These should be normalised so Cloak gains the range of Sleep, and Sleep the duration of Cloak at base. Cuts some clutter from the ability pane this way too.

Navigator was gone over previously - duration anti-synergy, scaling costs for no reason, janky control depending on flight speed of original projectile thanks to the very limited granularity of speed-stages when navigated.

The mobility shackling of Prowl isn't a 'racing other players' aspect if it also means you're impeded solo for marginal or absent gains comparable to abilities which don't inflict this. Ivara already has an 'immobile' invisibility tool in Cloak Arrow, as well, making it even less excusable. The four different energy costs is utterly absurd, on-melee and on-damaged at least should be outright removed, they exist just.. because. Soft stealth frames being damaged is already the punishment, because they take few hits to drop. Arbitrarily visually-exposing Ivara using loud guns, again, exists purely for the sake of a drawback, when no other stealth does this, instead relying on audial aggro. Even the advantages Prowl does offer over other stealths come with caveats - the stealing only suffers from negative strength with no equivalent gain from positive, a drawback purely for the sake of it, tacked onto already the worst loot ability in game. The 'consistency' of prowl is arguably also a limitation - channelling is not a beneficial state for anything but sitting AFK longer, when other stealths can sustain indefinitely with merely Energy Siphon, Ivara always needs to seek orbs; the window-of-opportunity on Ash/Loki is counterable by Rolling Guard if the player finds it absolutely necessary, while Octavia gets that consistency for free while also having indefinite sustain.

Artemis Bow had a few weird issues with things getting diluted across the multishot which have fortunately now been mitigated, presumably by the fix of 'shotgun pellet' rules (and thankfully, its forgotten-ness with Status Chance per projectile is now rectified). However, it's still locked from Split Flights for no particular reason (Cernos Prime is able to out-multishot the exalted multishot bow as a result) and is notoriously pretty unwieldy and/or underwhelming for most players. Also it naturally doesn't work well with Navigator, which the augment should have fixed but doesn't.

Even the Augments - by and large, terrible across the board. Empowered Quiver being the least bad but still very niche due to immobility, while Infiltrate is an indefensible insult, Piercing Navigator as per the thread is actively sabotaged by the arbitrary limitations of Navigator at core, and Concentrated Arrow is a paid nerf which is being barely propped up even in its optimal case by Hunter Munitions (especially now Slash procs aren't quite as god-tiered, just good-tier).
Power of Three is an okay niche for extending cloak/sleep coverage, but honestly the extra energy cost is a relic from its Conclave implementation, the slot alone is premium enough for the effect received in standard play. It's purely utility, not power.

[DatDarkOne]

11 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

in a sort of Stockholm Syndrome-like acceptance.

I was willing to somewhat agree with you until you said this.  

[Lemon]

It would be interesting if all the projectiles of a weapon would follow you not just one, including multi-shot projectiles.

[TheLexiConArtist]

57 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I was willing to somewhat agree with you until you said this.  

It wasn't meant to be condescending by any means, so if it came across that way, I apologise. Text is tone-deaf and all.

I find that some people will 'main' something off-meta and find their comfort dealing with its issues as best they can, finding acceptance. Others will only grow more critical of the shortfalls as they continue to experience them. We both have our investments in the same thing, at the end of the day, it's neither bad that one has found that comfort with the current status quo, nor that the other continues to engage with something whilst being actively critical of it.

You don't have to be personally unhappy with where Ivara is, and I don't have to stop playing Ivara just because I want her to be less jank.

I just don't want the issues to be buried by 'it's fine with my build, for my playstyle'.

 

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I just don't want the issues to be buried by 'it's fine with my build, for my playstyle'.

Oh don't worry about that happening as DE has been slowing putting death to my preferred playstyle in Warframe for the last 3 years.  I use to like taking a frame like Banshee and playing solo stealth.  This is no longer possible to do successfully with anything other than an invis frame now.