Loki Rework

[Venus-Venera]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb GreyDeath789:

Not claiming you or others are claiming DPS frames are "cheese" frames...but the "cheese" DPS frames make some (many/most?) missions trivial.

On some missions a Loki is overwhelmingly the top DPS frame (in overall damage and/or total kills) while other missions it is a "cheese" DPS frame. Still other missions it is just some player that has built a solid setup with frame/weapons to be  the "top" DPS player.

Once a "glass cannon" frame starts dropping to enemies it can end up that those 'lesser' (my words) frames that keep the mission running.

Play what you enjoy...learn how to leverage frames to beat missions...and grind for resources. In the end...that is really the important point.

Still, I say this...leave Loki alone and remove Limbo from the game! #RemoveLimboForever2021 #FramesPeopleDislike_Limbo2021 #SwampLandForSaleOnEarth2021

🤓

there are too many factors involved. and it depends on the group. if there are only beginners and they level everything, then i can even achieve top damage with mk1-braton.

loki is actually very good for new players. you can comfortably farm spy missions and master riven challenges. and he doesn't necessarily need arcanes.

However, that changes if you've been mr30 for a while and tried out all of the warframes. loki has poor skill set compared to other warframes.

[GreyDeath789]

13 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The line of argument that just because a frame has an area of usage, they're fine.

Which, as said, is a very stupid line of argument. Another example, pre-rework Wukong was my go-to frame for killing Wolf before his nerfs. Did that mean that Wukong was "fine", that there was "nothing wrong with" him? Lol no. He was an awful frame with a single ability that gave him some area of usage. Loki's basically in the same boat - with the exception of a single ability that gives him some relevance, he has one of the most pitiful kits to date. 

Ha...Loki isn't an "area of usage" frame but YMMV.

As for stupid arguments goes...people that struggle to grasp how to play some frames in a useful way isn't a very useful argument for "fix it" IMO.

[GreyDeath789]

3 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

However, that changes if you've been mr30 for a while and tried out all of the warframes. loki has poor skill set compared to other warframes.

We will need to agree to disagree...an experience player will find Loki fine as is...while another experience player will claim Loki has a "poor skill set"...

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

4 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Ha...Loki isn't an "area of usage" frame but YMMV.

Well, you're honestly right about that. Loki isn't an "area of usage" frame. Loki is an "I wanna play a worse frame for the task" frame. Seriously, the guy's not notably good at anything.

11 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

As for stupid arguments goes...people that struggle to grasp how to play some frames in a useful way isn't a very useful argument for "fix it" IMO.

"He's not bad because... Uh... You're dumb - HA!"

Damn, you got me there.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb GreyDeath789:

We will need to agree to disagree...an experience player will find Loki fine as is...while another experience player will claim Loki has a "poor skill set"...

neither nor. my opinion is 100% truth for me.
if someone sees grass as red or gray, then he mustn't declare it to be reality. everyone sees the world differently.

[GreyDeath789]

23 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

"He's not bad because... Uh... You're dumb - HA!"

The glasses some people wear to filter text into insults is amazing. But what should we expect from the player community.

Nobody called anyone "dumb"...but hurt feelings reports are being issued to protect those with feeble skin depth.

[GreyDeath789]

15 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

neither nor. my opinion is 100% truth for me.
if someone sees grass as red or gray, then he mustn't declare it to be reality. everyone sees the world differently.

While we agree on this point it doesn't mean there isn't a subset of players that are pushing for all grass to be painted cotton candy pink because it improves the "kit"  for grass.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

6 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Blah blah blah

And the take-away here is that you agree that Loki isn't notably good at anything, seeing as you didn't utter a single word of disagreement on that in your latest post.

That, or I really hurt you with that last comment. Apologies for that.

[GreyDeath789]

2 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

And the take-away here is that you agree that Loki isn't notably good at anything, seeing as you didn't utter a single word of disagreement on that in your latest post.

That, or I really hurt you with that last comment. Apologies for that.

Hehe...there is a requirement to disagree with someone inserting words are not in the post? Hmmm...ok.....and nice try to bait into a 'hurt feelings report' discussion...which isn't the point of the thread for the rest of us.

Player: "We should burn this forest down because pineapples need more flavor!"

Response: "Not sure forest fires improve the taste of pineapples."

Player: "HA! You didn't disagree that we should burn the forest down so you must agree with me or I hurt your feelings!"

Response: "Right...exactly..."

Again, for some players Loki does not need a rework because changes could be made via the Helminth process....but keep pushing that noodle...

 

[(PSN)FromOtherSpace]

il y a 12 minutes, GreyDeath789 a dit :

While we agree on this point it doesn't mean there isn't a subset of players that are pushing for all grass to be painted cotton candy pink because it improves the "kit"  for grass.

While some want no change at all because the whole kit is not totally worthless.

 

il y a 17 minutes, GreyDeath789 a dit :

The glasses some people wear to filter text into insults is amazing. But what should we expect from the player community.

Nobody called anyone "dumb"...but hurt feelings reports are being issued to protect those with feeble skin depth.

Not exactly an insult. But repeated comtempt (which it's pretty close).

 

I really hope calling us feeble skinned, candy pink, etc because we don't agree with you make you fell greater. That's make you seem bitter and arrogant (and a little homophobic) but the most important is how you feel :)

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

18 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Again, for some players Loki does not need a rework because changes could be made via the Helminth process...

And luckily for them, Loki's kit is so bad that you could give up 75% of his kit for a single Helminth ability, and it'd still improve him significantly.

... Wait, was this supposed to be an argument for why Loki doesn't need a rework? Pfff.

Edit: Sorry about that "Pfff". Should've minded that feeble skin a bit more.

[1up20xdey6]

On 2021-06-03 at 4:10 AM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The line of argument that just because a frame has an area of usage, they're fine.

Which, as said, is a very stupid line of argument. Another example, pre-rework Wukong was my go-to frame for killing Wolf before his nerfs. Did that mean that Wukong was "fine", that there was "nothing wrong with" him? Lol no. He was an awful frame with a single ability that gave him some area of usage. Loki's basically in the same boat - with the exception of a single ability that gives him some relevance, he has one of the most pitiful kits to date. 

This is a very good point.

On 2021-06-03 at 4:44 AM, Brinstar7777 said:

Passive Concept: Enhanced Agility. Loki's parkour speed recieves a significant increase, and loki's aim latch and wall glide time are boosted along with it. It's basically an expanded version of his current passive.

Could be useful, but much prefer something in line with his motif.

2 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

And luckily for them, Loki's kit is so bad that you could give up 75% of his kit for a single Helminth ability, and it'd still improve him significantly.

... Wait, was this supposed to be an argument for why Loki doesn't need a rework? Pfff.

Edit: Sorry about that "Pfff". Should've minded that feeble skin a bit more.

Have to agree on that.

2 hours ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Hehe...there is a requirement to disagree with someone inserting words are not in the post? Hmmm...ok.....and nice try to bait into a 'hurt feelings report' discussion...which isn't the point of the thread for the rest of us.

Player: "We should burn this forest down because pineapples need more flavor!"

Response: "Not sure forest fires improve the taste of pineapples."

Player: "HA! You didn't disagree that we should burn the forest down so you must agree with me or I hurt your feelings!"

Response: "Right...exactly..."

Again, for some players Loki does not need a rework because changes could be made via the Helminth process....but keep pushing that noodle...

 

I'm sorry to say, but all your arguments are a little poor here. Just about nothing you've said has really proved how Loki is viable with his current kit. Only one of his abilities is viable and the rest are at best, mediocre in comparison to a lot of other frames. Not even using the Helminth system really helps him that much since you can only replace one ability. Why use a frame that has 1 useful ability and the rest aren't that great even with the Helminth system, in comparison to using a frame with 3 useful abilities and one that can be replaced through Helminth? Take Mesa for example: Shooting Gallery, Shatter Shield and Peacemaker are great, while Ballistic Battery is useless.

[GreyDeath789]

On 2021-06-04 at 7:39 PM, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

I really hope calling us feeble skinned, candy pink, etc because we don't agree with you make you fell greater. That's make you seem bitter and arrogant (and a little homophobic) but the most important is how you feel :)

Hehe...what is the "most common" color of cotton candy...say at a fairground? Clearly it doesn't matter because someone wants to play a card...welcome to Warframe...the Gathering.

Not sure how someone seems "bitter and arrogant" by simply claiming Loki doesn't need a rework.

This idea that if a player doesn't agree with the claim that Loki needs a rework it becomes all about the person not agreeing.

Seems those pushing for a rework of Loki seem bitter and arrogant (and a little silly) but the most important part is to label those that don't agree with you...shrug.

[GreyDeath789]

On 2021-06-04 at 10:24 PM, 1up20xdey6 said:

I'm sorry to say, but all your arguments are a little poor here. Just about nothing you've said has really proved how Loki is viable with his current kit. Only one of his abilities is viable and the rest are at best, mediocre in comparison to a lot of other frames. Not even using the Helminth system really helps him that much since you can only replace one ability. Why use a frame that has 1 useful ability and the rest aren't that great even with the Helminth system, in comparison to using a frame with 3 useful abilities and one that can be replaced through Helminth? Take Mesa for example: Shooting Gallery, Shatter Shield and Peacemaker are great, while Ballistic Battery is useless.

Why is it expected that someone needs to "prove" Loki has a viable kit. Isn't the post about "proving" Loki needs a rework?

Some players that actually have made suggested changes to Loki seem to have given it some thought and that is great. While other players simply snipe at those that propose that Loki doesn't need a rework at all. Had those sniping players actually read the posts they may find where some players that don't think Loki needs a rework have commented on the suggested changes...even pointing out that some of those suggestions actually sound interesting...all while still not agreeing with the idea that Loki needs a rework. It is an interesting concept to disagree with the main point of the OP but accept and acknowledge some suggestions are interesting.

Claiming Loki has "1 useful ability" makes it clear that for some players Loki isn't a frame they find playable...so they want to change Loki to make the frame "better"...while other players find Loki has more than "1 useful ability" and have learned how to play the frame effectively and actually enjoy the frame as it is... Sadly, this means that the players that feel Loki is fine are "wrong" because other players are "right" that Loki is not fine.

Fun...fun...fun....

 

 

[(PSN)FromOtherSpace]

Le 30/05/2021 à 05:05, GreyDeath789 a dit :

Having played Loki as a starter frame on...as the tutorial text said...it is a difficult frame...meaning it requires time to learn 'best practices'...but this seems true for other frames as well.

 

Le 03/06/2021 à 03:02, GreyDeath789 a dit :

learn how to leverage frames to beat missions...and grind for resources. In the end...that is really the important point.

Still, I say this...leave Loki alone and remove Limbo from the game! #RemoveLimboForever2021 #FramesPeopleDislike_Limbo2021 #SwampLandForSaleOnEarth2021

🤓

 

Le 04/06/2021 à 02:20, GreyDeath789 a dit :

Ha...Loki isn't an "area of usage" frame but YMMV.

As for stupid arguments goes...people that struggle to grasp how to play some frames in a useful way isn't a very useful argument for "fix it" IMO.

 

Le 04/06/2021 à 02:22, GreyDeath789 a dit :

We will need to agree to disagree...an experience player will find Loki fine as is...while another experience player will claim Loki has a "poor skill set"...

Nothing arrogant in this?

[(PSN)FromOtherSpace]

il y a 10 minutes, GreyDeath789 a dit :

other players find Loki has more than "1 useful ability" and have learned how to play the frame effectively

 

 

Not arrogant at all!

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

2 hours ago, GreyDeath789 said:

while other players find Loki has more than "1 useful ability" and have learned how to play the frame effectively and actually enjoy the frame as it is...

Sound like said others have low standards 🤷‍♀️

2 hours ago, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

Nothing arrogant in this?

2 hours ago, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

Not arrogant at all!

I mean, when you look at those comments, it...

2 hours ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Seems those pushing for a preservation of Loki's provable deficiencies seem bitter and arrogant (and a little silly) but the most important part is to label those that don't agree with you...shrug.

[GreyDeath789]

11 hours ago, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

Nothing arrogant in this?

Nope. Not arrogant...thanks for pointing out the obvious.

[GreyDeath789]

11 hours ago, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

Not arrogant at all!

Nope. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

[GreyDeath789]

9 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Sound like said others have low standards 🤷‍♀️

I mean, when you look at those comments, it...

Interesting..."low standards" is a comment directed at which part of the player community? A bit arrogant? Maybe?

Nice why of changing a post by another...

9 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I mean, when you look at those comments, it...

11 hours ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Seems those pushing for a preservation of Loki's provable deficiencies seem bitter and arrogant (and a little silly) but the most important part is to label those that don't agree with you...shrug.

Seems those pushing for a rework of Loki seem bitter and arrogant (and a little silly) but the most important part is to label those that don't agree with you...shrug.

Interesting way of changing a post...glad to witness this...arrogance?

Enjoying this "exchange" of ideas on the Loki rework thread...

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

58 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Interesting..."low standards" is a comment directed at which part of the player community? A bit arrogant? Maybe?

The said others that are discernible from context. Also, as you so kindly put it for me,

1 hour ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Nope. Not arrogant...thanks for pointing out the obvious.

But what's this I spy?

1 hour ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Seems those pushing for a rework of Loki seem bitter and arrogant (and a little silly) but the most important part is to label those that don't agree with you...shrug.

Interesting way of changing a post...glad to witness this...arrogance?

Enjoying this "exchange" of ideas on the Loki rework thread...

Bitterness over one's beloved Loki being in need of a rework and over one's comment fitting the side in favor of a rework better, coupled with the arrogance and silliness of calling another those things when one's gone the entire thread making empty assertions, now derailed into petty ad hominem. Why, yes it is. It would indeed seem that

1 hour ago, GreyDeath789 said:

those pushing for a preservation of Loki's provable deficiencies seem bitter and arrogant (and a little silly) but the most important part is to label those that don't agree with you...shrug.

That last part, 

1 hour ago, GreyDeath789 said:

but the most important part is to label those that don't agree with you...shrug.

rings especially true, since as soon as people started arguing against you, you started up the labeling machine.

On 2021-06-04 at 2:20 AM, GreyDeath789 said:

Ha...Loki isn't an "area of usage" frame but YMMV.

As for stupid arguments goes...people that struggle to grasp how to play some frames in a useful way isn't a very useful argument for "fix it" IMO.

The derailment from arguing against the argument to arguing against people was swift,

1 hour ago, GreyDeath789 said:

bitter and arrogant (and a little silly)

But yeah, I'm certainly

1 hour ago, GreyDeath789 said:

glad to witness this...arrogance

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

To get this discussion a bit more on track, here's a Loki revisit I made. Let me know what you think.

Spoiler

Passive

• Along with wall latch duration, Loki's next bullet jump gains 100% extra parkour velocity after performing a wall latch.

Decoy

• Decoy is now invulnerable.
• Duration reduced to 15s (from 25s).
• Holding down the ability button will kill the active Decoy.
• If enemies cannot acquire a new target after Decoy expires or dies, they will reset their alert status.

Invisibility

• Invisibility can be toggled off by pressing the ability key again.
• Invisibility duration pauses while Loki is latched to a wall.

Switch Teleport

• Holding the ability key will cause Loki to Switch Teleport with a Decoy if one is active.
• Switching with an alerted target will attach an explosive to them, exploding when shot and dealing 500 Electricity damage in a 5m radius with 100% (unmoddable) status chance.
  • Explosives can be triggered by enemy shots.
  • Explosives trigger when the enemy takes damage, not when the explosive specifically is shot.
  • Decoy will receive an explosive if it is in its alerted (firing state). If Decoy is hit (regardless of it being invulnerable), the explosive will trigger.

Radial Disarm

• Enemy weapons explode upon being disarmed, dealing 200 blast damage to the enemy.
• Unaware enemies will instead have their weapon sabotaged, exploding when they attempt to fire.
• Sabotage explosion increases by 50% (unmoddable) for every 1s weapons remain sabotaged.

 

[1up20xdey6]

On 2021-06-12 at 6:50 AM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

To get this discussion a bit more on track, here's a Loki revisit I made. Let me know what you think.

  Hide contents

Passive

• Along with wall latch duration, Loki's next bullet jump gains 100% extra parkour velocity after performing a wall latch.

Decoy

• Decoy is now invulnerable.
• Duration reduced to 15s (from 25s).
• Holding down the ability button will kill the active Decoy.
• If enemies cannot acquire a new target after Decoy expires or dies, they will reset their alert status.

Invisibility

• Invisibility can be toggled off by pressing the ability key again.
• Invisibility duration pauses while Loki is latched to a wall.

Switch Teleport

• Holding the ability key will cause Loki to Switch Teleport with a Decoy if one is active.
• Switching with an alerted target will attach an explosive to them, exploding when shot and dealing 500 Electricity damage in a 5m radius with 100% (unmoddable) status chance.
  • Explosives can be triggered by enemy shots.
  • Explosives trigger when the enemy takes damage, not when the explosive specifically is shot.
  • Decoy will receive an explosive if it is in its alerted (firing state). If Decoy is hit (regardless of it being invulnerable), the explosive will trigger.

Radial Disarm

• Enemy weapons explode upon being disarmed, dealing 200 blast damage to the enemy.
• Unaware enemies will instead have their weapon sabotaged, exploding when they attempt to fire.
• Sabotage explosion increases by 50% (unmoddable) for every 1s weapons remain sabotaged.

 

This is most certainly what he could use.

[syl42]

is there any use for Switch Teleport?

My first thought would be to switch with the decoy to bypass laser. The other use is if you want to troll a player.

I would merge this skill with Decoy. Tap to cast Decoy, hold to teleport. And tap to cast a new Decoy. This would give a way to move "faster" like Nova. If there is no Decoy, you could switch to the target and keep the original design.

Then it would open up for something else that isn't the prime skill for subsume replacement.

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-05-30 at 4:01 AM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Isn't that just Decoy, but on a target that can actually survive?

A combination of Decoy and Nyx's Chaos. I think it fits in the theme of Loki, being a trickster.