PVP Open World Survival: Next Gen Battle Royale

[Heroslayer14]

Every Battle Royale has its unique concept for combat but in the end the same objective, be the last person or squad standing. Why not throw away the old idea of how a battle royale was meant to be and recreate it to make it into something different entirely.  The concept idea that I would propose for part of warframes lackluster pvp would be to essentially take what takes hours of grinding to do in game and speed it up in a more progression based open world survival where squads must fight for resources to upgrade their starting gear or craft new gear in order to survive and eventually repair or hijack a faction ship to leave in one piece (none of which is possible early game). While in other battle royales, the only enemy is enemy players. In this open world survival, you must deal with faction enemies as well. There could also be a much larger progression system through leveling up the ranks of your weapons and warframe in order to equip a larger mod capacity compared to a rarity system which has a limited amount of influence on combat. Warframe is a game that has the potential to create a battle royale like no other before by implementing the same concepts that make up the game progression. I have enjoyed Warframe greatly over the years but as I have progressed in being a better player, the tasks that once seemed so challenging have become lackluster as my understanding of the game has increased. Adding a much larger pvp base to the game would give players like me who enjoy the challenges of facing real players a much bigger reason to continue playing this game. While there is much more to my concept idea as to scaling and a more indepth analysis of the progression in the game mode, the intricacies of the game should be left to those who make it. I really hope that this concept gets through to the game makers because I believe that this could be a very successful direction for the future of Warframe pvp. 

p.s. If this concept does consist of some value to the makers, I would love to have the opportunity for any kind of internship to see the functions of a game development company as I am a business major and am currently looking for some experience in my career field.                                                                                 

[bad4youLT]

For the last time , warframe is not pvp game nore it should be perod .

You want battle royale ? go play battle royale not warframe .

[DrivaMain]

Another PvP battle royale spam thread? Send this thread to the shredder.

[Loxyen]

10 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

For the last time , warframe is not pvp game nore it should be perod .

You want battle royale ? go play battle royale not warframe .

For the last time, despite Warframe being advertised as coop pve game Conclave as in pvp is one of its oldest existing systems. And DE wouldn't have reworked it if there wasn't an audience behind playing it.

The BR idea aside you do realize that with such commands you're rather doing harm to the game you try to defend?

9 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Another PvP battle royale spam thread? Send this thread to the shredder.

Not quite the elaborate way of stating things.. However I have to agree that BR in Warframe isn't the best idea.

Alone the effort needed to optimize the game's coding so that its able to support such huge lobby size in realtime... You can see it in the relays and planet player hubs that Warframe is not opted to support that many players. The movement animations aren't even displayed, everyone just runs through the air or on the place until they teleport somewhere else... Another sign would be that DE never expanded the maximum lobby size beyond 8 players. Not coop like raids, nor vsing in Rail Wars or Conclave. The total amount of players in one lobby always were 8 max. Tbh I'd rather have a faint cough of that needed development effort directed into the existing systems like Conclave or a Dark Sector rework, because thats how little work they need to be fixed again in comparision.

[bad4youLT]

5 hours ago, Loxyen said:

For the last time, despite Warframe being advertised as coop pve game Conclave as in pvp is one of its oldest existing systems. And DE wouldn't have reworked it if there wasn't an audience behind playing it.

The BR idea aside you do realize that with such commands you're rather doing harm to the game you try to defend?

 

Lunaro was hyped AF , how long did it took for it to die ? DE even gone as far as add an option to host servers for PvP , did it make conclave more popular ? course not .

Warframe is PvE game period , people arent interested in PvP here at all .

[Sevek7]

1 hour ago, bad4youLT said:

Lunaro was hyped AF , how long did it took for it to die ? DE even gone as far as add an option to host servers for PvP , did it make conclave more popular ? course not .

Warframe is PvE game period , people arent interested in PvP here at all .

You're oversimplifying. If you step back and look at all the game-modes in the game, you'll notice that every game-mode with bad rewards is dead. For example, I recently started playing defection missions to get the last Harrow part. I've started 9 public missions during popular playtime and ended up doing the entire mission alone every time. Defection is dead because the rewards are bad. 

Conclave is similar: there are no rewards, therefore the game-mode is dead. So, your statement "Warframe is PvE game period , people arent interested in PvP here at all" would be better stated as "Warframe is a rewards-based game, people aren't interested in game-modes without rewards." 

Lunaro, of course, had the exact same problem. In fact, given how dead the reward-less PvE missions are, it's actually remarkable that conclave still has the limited popularity that it has. [Keep in mind, there is a community around conclave, but they play almost exclusively in private matches because public matches are full of exploits these days.] 

So, the situation is more complicated than you suggest. I don't think Battle Royale is the right PvP for Warframe, but I'm not going to discourage the OP by immediately shutting down all discussion about their point, especially since it's literally their first post ever in the forums. Let's try to be a bit more welcoming!

 

[bad4youLT]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

 

So, the situation is more complicated than you suggest. I don't think Battle Royale is the right PvP for Warframe, but I'm not going to discourage the OP by immediately shutting down all discussion about their point, especially since it's literally their first post ever in the forums. Let's try to be a bit more welcoming!

 

I would because competative games have roten communitys , you want the same for this game ?

[Sevek7]

4 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

I would because competative games have roten communitys , you want the same for this game ?

Please help me understand your point here, you are saying the following:

We should be harsh and unwelcoming to new community members when they bring ideas that we perceive might attract new and different types of players, because those new players might be toxic, which creates a harsh and unwelcoming community.

Surely you see the irony of this. 

[Heroslayer14]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

You're oversimplifying. If you step back and look at all the game-modes in the game, you'll notice that every game-mode with bad rewards is dead. For example, I recently started playing defection missions to get the last Harrow part. I've started 9 public missions during popular playtime and ended up doing the entire mission alone every time. Defection is dead because the rewards are bad. 

Conclave is similar: there are no rewards, therefore the game-mode is dead. So, your statement "Warframe is PvE game period , people arent interested in PvP here at all" would be better stated as "Warframe is a rewards-based game, people aren't interested in game-modes without rewards." 

Lunaro, of course, had the exact same problem. In fact, given how dead the reward-less PvE missions are, it's actually remarkable that conclave still has the limited popularity that it has. [Keep in mind, there is a community around conclave, but they play almost exclusively in private matches because public matches are full of exploits these days.] 

So, the situation is more complicated than you suggest. I don't think Battle Royale is the right PvP for Warframe, but I'm not going to discourage the OP by immediately shutting down all discussion about their point, especially since it's literally their first post ever in the forums. Let's try to be a bit more welcoming!

 

 That is a very good point, if there was a much more compelling reward system for conclave. The pvp base could possibly get a lot more people involved. 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

Defection is dead because the rewards are bad.

Harrow is not a bad reward. Defection is dead because the gameplay is bad.

[Sevek7]

2 minutes ago, Heroslayer14 said:

 That is a very good point, if there was a much more compelling reward system for conclave. The pvp base could possibly get a lot more people involved. 

Yes, a proper reward structure would be necessary for PvP to become more successful. But, there are some other problems too!

One is that most successful PvP games these days have a high skill floor and a low skill ceiling. This is common because it's very welcoming to new players, but it does mean that there is less room for skill development. So, these games typically have a constant, large influx of new players, but need to use time-limited events / prestige cosmetics, etc... to retain their long-time players. Warframe is the opposite, the skill floor is extremely low, and the skill ceiling is extremely high. It's extremely rare for a new player to manage to take down a skilled player, but skilled players love that there is always room for improvement & development. So, if Warframe wants broader PvP appeal, they will likely need to modify this skill floor / ceiling standard. Shield gating actually did reduce the skill ceiling a bit, but I don't think it's really enough. This problem can also be fixed with matchmaking, i.e.: match players of similar skill level with each other. This has been suggested many, many times. I'm not sure why DE chose to never implement this, and instead prefer new and skilled players to end up in matches together.

Another issue is that the skillset most effective for PvP and the skillset most effective for PvE are almost entirely opposite! The most effective way to play PvE is to spam abilities or mash the melee button. Planning ahead, dodging, aiming, etc... are generally punished in PvE. I think this makes it very jarring for people who decide to try conclave, because their skills learned in PvE are close to useless in PvP. I think the solution here lies in PvE balance changes. I'm not sure why, but in almost every category the easiest to use weapons are also the strongest, whereas weapons that require precision aim generally do lower damage. I think this would need to be swapped, with difficult weapons having higher damage, and easy AOE weapons having lower damage, for players to gain better aim while playing PvE.

DE have also taken a radical approach to PvP from the start. They chose to never ban cheaters and exploiters [and very rarely fix exploits!]. This is obviously the opposite of every successful PvP game, and I'm again unsure exactly why DE chose this method. It seems not to have worked in their favor, as they watched their PvP community dwindle over the years.

I'm sure there are other issues that would need to be ironed out, but I think these are the main issues preventing successful PvP in Warframe.

[Sevek7]

1 minute ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Harrow is not a bad reward. Defection is dead because the gameplay is bad.

Harrow is a bad reward, because it's something you only need to get once (or twice, for helminth). Perhaps I should rephrase, when I say "bad rewards" I mean rewards that don't encourage players to keep playing the mode, after they've got the reward once. I'm sure that if Defection rewards included Kuva in an amount comparable to the other Kuva farms, then it would not be dead, no matter how bad the gameplay might be (which is, after all, subjective). 

[Heroslayer14]

19 hours ago, Heroslayer14 said:

Every Battle Royale has its unique concept for combat but in the end the same objective, be the last person or squad standing. Why not throw away the old idea of how a battle royale was meant to be and recreate it to make it into something different entirely.  The concept idea that I would propose for part of warframes lackluster pvp would be to essentially take what takes hours of grinding to do in game and speed it up in a more progression based open world survival where squads must fight for resources to upgrade their starting gear or craft new gear in order to survive and eventually repair or hijack a faction ship to leave in one piece (none of which is possible early game). While in other battle royales, the only enemy is enemy players. In this open world survival, you must deal with faction enemies as well. There could also be a much larger progression system through leveling up the ranks of your weapons and warframe in order to equip a larger mod capacity compared to a rarity system which has a limited amount of influence on combat. Warframe is a game that has the potential to create a battle royale like no other before by implementing the same concepts that make up the game progression. I have enjoyed Warframe greatly over the years but as I have progressed in being a better player, the tasks that once seemed so challenging have become lackluster as my understanding of the game has increased. Adding a much larger pvp base to the game would give players like me who enjoy the challenges of facing real players a much bigger reason to continue playing this game. While there is much more to my concept idea as to scaling and a more indepth analysis of the progression in the game mode, the intricacies of the game should be left to those who make it. I really hope that this concept gets through to the game makers because I believe that this could be a very successful direction for the future of Warframe pvp. 

p.s. If this concept does consist of some value to the makers, I would love to have the opportunity for any kind of internship to see the functions of a game development company as I am a business major and am currently looking for some experience in my career field.                                                                                 

 If it wasn't clear, the point of this concept idea was to draw more people to warframe, or more specifically to the pvp aspect of the game by creating a game mode that is in some ways at its core similar to a battle royale but features a much more complex progression and combat system that derives from the games mechanics themselves.  I do slightly agree that if someone wants to play a battle royale, there are many other games to play but to me, the way that Warframe's in-game progression system is could create something in my opinion, much more involving and strategic than a regular battle royale. As stated earlier however, much like how conclave is now, there must be a better reward system in order for this or any conclave updates to last long term, at least for most people. This forum post is just a brief summary of a more in-depth concept idea that I created over a span of several minutes so it is definitely very broad and not very well portrayed but it gets most of the important thoughts through. In the business world, it's usually not the companies who mimic what others do that become very successful and makes the papers so to speak, its those who work to create and innovate something new or better than before. What I envision is not a battle royale but a new branch stemming off of the world of pvp, an open world survival.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

6 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

I'm sure that if Defection rewards included Kuva in an amount comparable to the other Kuva farms, then it would not be dead, no matter how bad the gameplay might be

You're probably right, but do we really need Defection to be something we do outside farming Harrow? I'm fine with frames having their own game modes for farming them, but not fine with various design elements of Harrow/Grendel/Protea/Nidus missions not being subjectively fun for me, or for any of the people who have been posting to complain about the quality of these game modes for the past however many years. I also instantly close the window if I see Defection in the Sortie, rivens be damned.

[Sevek7]

24 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

You're probably right, but do we really need Defection to be something we do outside farming Harrow? I'm fine with frames having their own game modes for farming them, but not fine with various design elements of Harrow/Grendel/Protea/Nidus missions not being subjectively fun for me, or for any of the people who have been posting to complain about the quality of these game modes for the past however many years. I also instantly close the window if I see Defection in the Sortie, rivens be damned.

Haha yes you're right. It's as they say, Warframe is a mile wide but only an inch deep. Hundreds of different things to do, but most of them are bordering on pointless. I have the same issue, with some game-modes that I like and some that I don't like. Ultimately, we should of course discuss whether perhaps some of these things should be consolidated. I started a new account recently to try the revamped "new player experience" and ended up playing all of the Earth nodes alone, even though I was set to public. So it seems to me that Warframe is currently too wide, and could do with some narrowing. But, my only point with bringing up defection was simply that we cannot assume that current unpopularity of a game-mode means every incarnation of that game-mode will always be rejected. I don't want to go too far off-topic here, we can start another topic in the correct subforum for discussion about "narrowing" the game. I'm sure it would lead to fruitful discussion, but we should stick to the PvP topic here :) 

[bad4youLT]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

Please help me understand your point here, you are saying the following:

We should be harsh and unwelcoming to new community members when they bring ideas that we perceive might attract new and different types of players, because those new players might be toxic, which creates a harsh and unwelcoming community.

Surely you see the irony of this. 

In this case the idea is unwelcome and not just by me alone . We all know what happend to Fortnite , how originaly it was supposed to be diffirent kind of game and how it turned out to be . I for one do not want to see this happen here .

[Sevek7]

12 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

In this case the idea is unwelcome and not just by me alone . We all know what happend to Fortnite , how originaly it was supposed to be diffirent kind of game and how it turned out to be . I for one do not want to see this happen here .

I don't know anything about Fortnite. Was it a primarily PvE game that started making successful PvP as a secondary game-mode, which then caused the previously very kind and welcoming community to become unwelcoming and toxic specifically because of the newly added PvP?

[bad4youLT]

2 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

I don't know anything about Fortnite. Was it a primarily PvE game that started making successful PvP as a secondary game-mode, which then caused the previously very kind and welcoming community to become unwelcoming and toxic specifically because of the newly added PvP?

Fortnite originaly was supposed to be tower defense / survival PvE esc tipe of game , this however quickly changed once Epic decided to tests waters on competative side as PUBG has created vacuum in econamy with suden popularity in battle royale genre . This rezulted in explosion of player count , after not long Epic patched out the original games content out and focused all effort into battle royale part . 

And given that every competative game in long run turns into toxic cesspool Fortnites fate was no different .

[Sevek7]

4 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

Fortnite originaly was supposed to be tower defense / survival PvE esc tipe of game , this however quickly changed once Epic decided to tests waters on competative side as PUBG has created vacuum in econamy with suden popularity in battle royale genre . This rezulted in explosion of player count , after not long Epic patched out the original games content out and focused all effort into battle royale part . 

Interesting, thanks for informing me. I always liked sci-fi games and the cartoony aesthetic never really interested me, so I never tried Fortnite. I can understand that players who love PvE would be worried given that example that DE might go down the same path if their PvP became popular. Honestly, I don't want DE to put all resources into PvP, but I think it can still be a successful side part of the game. Steve has mentioned in the past that PvE will always be the main focus (as it should be). 

9 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

And given that every competative game in long run turns into toxic cesspool Fortnites fate was no different .

This I'm not so sure about. I've played a lot of competitive games for long periods of time and not all of them were toxic. The current conclave community is very fun, laid back, and welcoming (at least in my experience!). 

In any case, thanks for sharing that background. It helps to explain why you feel so strongly against PvP, puts things into context. Do you think it's possible to have both PvE and PvP in a game without it destroying the community? I know games like Destiny have done it, but I'm not sure what their community is like.

[Loxyen]

On 2020-10-25 at 7:50 PM, bad4youLT said:

In this case the idea is unwelcome and not just by me alone . We all know what happend to Fortnite , how originaly it was supposed to be diffirent kind of game and how it turned out to be . I for one do not want to see this happen here .

Sorry but thats just stupid... with all honesty. That fear is completely unsolidified and the way it makes you (and so many others within Warframe's community) act is self destructive at best. Scare away more dedicated and potentially new players who'd support the game you try to hold dear...

DE stated so many times that the game's primary focus is pve, but this dosen't mean that it couldn't have a successful pvp aswell. Alone how the entire game was build through the years you'd either have to play pve and get Warframes and weapons if you wanna play pvp with diverse loadouts, or trade/cash in. A healthy pvp environment would be a great replay value for phases of the ever returning content draught aswell.

DE isn't the barely 10 member developer studio from when they created Warframe anymore and until 3 years a go a single dev (mostly alone) managed to handle Conclave's reworked balance system pretty well. Warframe's pvp does not need much work to flourish again, but a little love from wherever it comes.

[Xerivar]

Lol. People are scared of Warframe becoming successful in PvP. But no one can deny that better PvP Mode would enrich the Warframe experience. I for one like to see a successful pvp endgame content in Warframe. Plus, it is irrefutable that endgame content is abysmal.

[bad4youLT]

16 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Sorry but thats just stupid... with all honesty. That fear is completely unsolidified and the way it makes you (and so many others within Warframe's community) act is self destructive at best. Scare away more dedicated and potentially new players who'd support the game you try to hold dear...

DE stated so many times that the game's primary focus is pve, but this dosen't mean that it couldn't have a successful pvp aswell. Alone how the entire game was build through the years you'd either have to play pve and get Warframes and weapons if you wanna play pvp with diverse loadouts, or trade/cash in. A healthy pvp environment would be a great replay value for phases of the ever returning content draught aswell.

DE isn't the barely 10 member developer studio from when they created Warframe anymore and until 3 years a go a single dev (mostly alone) managed to handle Conclave's reworked balance system pretty well. Warframe's pvp does not need much work to flourish again, but a little love from wherever it comes.

I guess you havent heard on whats going on in Destinys 2 cruisable and Trails nore had expirienced any "hard core" pvp players and their colorfull language .

[Sevek7]

21 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

I guess you havent heard on whats going on in Destinys 2 cruisable and Trails nore had expirienced any "hard core" pvp players and their colorfull language .

I don't really understand what's happening here. We were having a good discussion about PvP introduced into PvE games, and the effect that has on the community. You mentioned that you think PvP will always turn any gaming community toxic:

On 2020-10-25 at 3:14 PM, bad4youLT said:

And given that every competative game in long run turns into toxic cesspool

I challenged that, by asking:

On 2020-10-25 at 3:26 PM, Sevek7 said:

Do you think it's possible to have both PvE and PvP in a game without it destroying the community?

You then ignored that question, and continued to repeat your original statement. So here's the important point:

It is not a fact that PvP ruins the community, and you treating that as an obvious fact and ignoring any challenge to that statement is not productive.

This is a forum, a place for discussion about these things. It is not useful to keep repeating your beliefs in an attempt to shut down other people's discussions, while ignoring any challenge to those beliefs.

[bad4youLT]

2 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I don't really understand what's happening here. We were having a good discussion about PvP introduced into PvE games, and the effect that has on the community. You mentioned that you think PvP will always turn any gaming community toxic:

 

And I has awnserd it , maybe you just arent aware , Destiny 2 has this thing called trials wich is thi "hard core" pvp game mode for player with high skill wich involves 3v3 matches , the goal is to win multiple 3v3 matches to gain access to exclusive area and rewards , because whole thing is high skill you run into either toxic people or cheaters who want nothing but rewards .

Same problem is even in regural pvp , the point Im making is that pvp games that have high skill ceiling or rewards get toxic real soon . This isnt exclusive to just Destiny 2 , plenty of other polular games have this problem , CSGO , Mobas , CoD , BTF , PoE .

 

[Sevek7]

26 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

And I has awnserd it , maybe you just arent aware , Destiny 2 has this thing called trials wich is thi "hard core" pvp game mode for player with high skill wich involves 3v3 matches , the goal is to win multiple 3v3 matches to gain access to exclusive area and rewards , because whole thing is high skill you run into either toxic people or cheaters who want nothing but rewards .

Same problem is even in regural pvp , the point Im making is that pvp games that have high skill ceiling or rewards get toxic real soon . This isnt exclusive to just Destiny 2 , plenty of other polular games have this problem , CSGO , Mobas , CoD , BTF , PoE .

 

Okay, I think I understand your answer. But it's a yes or no question, and instead of saying yes or no, you keep bringing up examples. So you can understand why I'm confused. Here is the question again: (3rd try now)

On 2020-10-25 at 3:26 PM, Sevek7 said:

Do you think it's possible to have both PvE and PvP in a game without it destroying the community?

I'm now going to answer it for you, because I think I understand your answer.

"No, the introduction of PvP into any game will 100% undeniably destroy the entire community, see for example games like Fortnite, Destiny 2, CSGO, Mobas, CoD, BTF, PoE."

I think this is what you are trying to say, if I got it wrong, please correct me [remember, it's a yes or no question, so make sure to correct that part too.]

30 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

CSGO , Mobas , CoD , BTF , PoE .

There's just one problem. I have played a lot of Counter Strike, Call of Duty, and Battlefield. I've thoroughly enjoyed them and made a bunch of friends, we all had a great time and there was very little toxicity. I also recently tried Destiny 2, another of your examples. In Destiny 2, I played several PvP matches. Nobody in the match acted toxic in any way. So, I disagree with your answer to the question. I think it's possible to have PvP introduced into a PvE game without it destroying the community. Of course, player maturity will have a lot to do with it too, but I have faith that Warframe's playerbase is mature enough to handle it. [After all, the players who don't want to do PvP can just... not do it!]