A first Zaw - Daugther & Plague stuffs + Exodia

[quxier]

So I'm bought all exodias (10 for each) to use on Zaws and I'm planning to try building my first Zaws. I'm the Visitor in the Ostron syndicate. I could probably get those 44k + 1 Cetus wisp to get to the next rank.
Is there something to avoid while building Zaws? I want to use Daughter's stuffs (Zaw's part).

Should I build one for crit and one for status?

[Sevek7]

I would suggest building for Crit and Attack speed. (i.e.: Vargeet II Ruhang and the fastest Grip)

A while ago, status was epic, but the "status rework" in the Spring was really a "status nerf." Be warned, however, they are looking to rework status again soon (probably because they realized crit is basically better for everything now!) So, what's best to build today may not be best tomorrow. 

Short answer: Crit is best, for now. But, you  can basically build anything and it will perform fine unless you do steel path or long endurance missions.

[chaotea]

9 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

"status rework" in the Spring was really a "status nerf."

None of that is really true, status works better than ever at the moment, and is virtually the only thing of value in top tier missions. Crits doesnt do much in Steel Path.

[chaotea]

What can help is looking at this: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Zaw

Also this: https://semlar.com/zawcalc

What you build for depends on both the parts your using, and what stage of the game your at.

 

I'd say maybe yes to one crit one status, like this:

https://semlar.com/zawcalc/668

https://semlar.com/zawcalc/7711

As one 'head' has better crit, the other better stats. But in the end its up to you. I myself have 2 of each.

[(PSN)The_Verethragna]

What I did was look at the stats of other weapons in the same class and build something that didn't exist at the time.

If there was a class that was crit heavy, I built a status weapon. Ect.

[Sevek7]

34 minutes ago, chaotea said:

None of that is really true, status works better than ever at the moment, and is virtually the only thing of value in top tier missions. Crits doesnt do much in Steel Path.

My current understanding is that the first proc of each status generally has the largest effect. For example, the first corrosive proc strips 26% armor, while subsequent procs strip 5% (not sure of actual numbers, but something like this.) Likewise, the first viral proc buffs damage to health by 100%, while subsequent procs buff by some much smaller number. (Of course, there are exceptions - stacking heat procs for instance)

Since crit weapons and crit builds typically don't have 0% status chance, crit builds therefore still gain a large benefit from status, even without building for it, because you only need a single proc to get a large benefit. So, crit weapons & builds get the best of raw damage and still enjoy the most of status benefit. In contrast, status weapons get the full benefit of status, which is only a little bit better than crit weapons, but they lack the massive damage bonus from crits. So, crit weapons are better. 

Of course, DE can rework this by switching to the opposite - making subsequent procs stronger than the initial proc, which may put status weapons in a position to compete with crit weapons, but right now I cannot agree with your statement.

[quxier]

53 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Since crit weapons and crit builds typically don't have 0% status chance, crit builds therefore still gain a large benefit from status, even without building for it, because you only need a single proc to get a large benefit. So, crit weapons & builds get the best of raw damage and still enjoy the most of status benefit. In contrast, status weapons get the full benefit of status, which is only a little bit better than crit weapons, but they lack the massive damage bonus from crits. So, crit weapons are better. 

So, corrosive's first proc is 20%, and next procs are 6%, max is 80%. For viral it's 100%, 25% and 325%.
In order to get status you need fast weapon or some status per combo mod. Otherwise weapon with low status won't proc enough (exceptions are something like gunblade that fires many bullets).

[Sevek7]

56 minutes ago, quxier said:

So, corrosive's first proc is 20%, and next procs are 6%, max is 80%. For viral it's 100%, 25% and 325%.
In order to get status you need fast weapon or some status per combo mod. Otherwise weapon with low status won't proc enough (exceptions are something like gunblade that fires many bullets).

Right, so using Viral as an example, Status weapons can ramp up after 10 hits (usually more due to status dilution) to get a 4.25x multiplier. Crit weapons will proc once, and also have a crit damage boost of ~4x, so they get an 8x multiplier, usually in far less than 10 hits. 

Yeah, although even with two 60/60 mods you can usually get a good boost from status on a weapon with as low as 10% base status. But yes, if you want your melee weapon to be crazy powerful, put Weeping wounds & Blood rush on and you'll be making insane crits with consistent status application. Slow weapons are punished more, as you said, which is why it's generally better to choose the fastest grip.

[chaotea]

17 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

My current understanding is that the first proc of each status generally has the largest effect. For example, the first corrosive proc strips 26% armor, while subsequent procs strip 5% (not sure of actual numbers, but something like this.) Likewise, the first viral proc buffs damage to health by 100%, while subsequent procs buff by some much smaller number. (Of course, there are exceptions - stacking heat procs for instance)

That only seems to be true for some procs. Generally those with upper limits. Corrosive gives 26% on first hit, with 6% for each proc after. This means that status isnt useless on a weapon with lower firerates, but high fire rates get better coverage. An Ignis for example can reach the max 80% in under a second.

17 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Since crit weapons and crit builds typically don't have 0% status chance, crit builds therefore still gain a large benefit from status, even without building for it, because you only need a single proc to get a large benefit. So, crit weapons & builds get the best of raw damage and still enjoy the most of status benefit. In contrast, status weapons get the full benefit of status, which is only a little bit better than crit weapons, but they lack the massive damage bonus from crits. So, crit weapons are better. 

Crit is just damage multiplier, wereas status is very situational. I hold to the idea that in Warframe, what you want from a weapon depends on what stage your at. Early game, pure damage is best. Mid game (around lvl 70-100 ish) you want to look more towards crit, for those high damage numbers. Late game (steel path, ect) status is king, because stripping the enemys damage resistances, stunning enemies, ect, is far more valueable.

17 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Of course, DE can rework this by switching to the opposite - making subsequent procs stronger than the initial proc, which may put status weapons in a position to compete with crit weapons, but right now I cannot agree with your statement.

Again, note my comments about fire rate (or attack speed on melee).

 

However all this misses the point. Crit isnt better all the time than status, or vice-versa. Its situational. If you have a high status weapon you should mod for status. If you have a high crit weapon, mod for crit. With zaws, different components have different preferences, so either build it for the style you want or build your style to the parts strengths.

Melee is abit different, in that you dont really need to build for crit or status, as the combo multipliers mods solve this for you. You can build for both.

 

For discussion, im running an ignis wraith as my main weapon going through steel path. Build is something like this: http://warframe-builder.com/s/f0b2f12efedf2ecb

While it makes use of crit for slash procs, its really more of a status build. This thing melts through steel path enemies so quickly. Because while on paper staus doesnt seem like a big whoop, its not a damage system, but a support system for damage.

After all, having 100% chance to do x5 damage sounds great, but if your enemy will reduce that damage by 90% due to armour, a weapon that can reduce that armor to only a 20% reduction may be stronger.

[chaotea]

16 hours ago, quxier said:

So, corrosive's first proc is 20%, and next procs are 6%, max is 80%. For viral it's 100%, 25% and 325%.
In order to get status you need fast weapon or some status per combo mod. Otherwise weapon with low status won't proc enough (exceptions are something like gunblade that fires many bullets).

Though i suppose the same can be said for critical, if youve not got 100% crit chance. The more you hit the better. Still, its important to remember that stat builds can be op with condition overload. And most of the time you want a fast attck speed to wrack up that combo count.

[Sevek7]

3 hours ago, chaotea said:

Crit is just damage multiplier, wereas status is very situational.

Yes of course. I have a glaxion build with no damage mods at all. It causes 50 second radiation procs. It's really fun to use as a crowd control tactic, but ultimately it's generally more effective to just kill the enemies in 99.9% of situations. But I did use this glaxion build during extremely long arbitration excavations, back when that was a thing people did.

3 hours ago, chaotea said:

However all this misses the point. Crit isnt better all the time than status, or vice-versa. Its situational.

Yes, you said this already... [see the first quote!] Of course crit is not a source of crowd control or other utility. 

3 hours ago, chaotea said:

If you have a high status weapon you should mod for status. If you have a high crit weapon, mod for crit.

Yes, this is true. But - the question here is not about how to mod weapons, it's about which base stats are better. Modding comes later.

3 hours ago, chaotea said:

After all, having 100% chance to do x5 damage sounds great, but if your enemy will reduce that damage by 90% due to armour, a weapon that can reduce that armor to only a 20% reduction may be stronger.

Yes, if your enemy starts off with 90% damage reduction due to armor, and you strip it down to 20% reduction, you have effectively multiplied your damage by 8x. Whereas, your crit weapon with 0% status chance has only a 5x multiplier. So you're right, in that situation status is better (except still not for the first 5-10 shots or so [depending on status chance and dilution]).

But, you seem to have ignored my point, even though you quoted it. I'll re-quote it here for you:

21 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Since crit weapons and crit builds typically don't have 0% status chance, crit builds therefore still gain a large benefit from status, even without building for it

In the first 10-20 shots where your status weapon has stripped armor down to 20% reduction, my crit weapon has also stripped armor, not all the way down to 20%, but maybe to 40%. So, I have gained a 6x multiplier from status, while you have gained a 8x multiplier. But, mine multiplies with my crit damage multiplier, so my overall multiplier is now a 5*6 = 30x multiplier! 

If the later procs had a bigger effect than the early procs, the situation would maybe be different. 

I wish you were right. I liked when status could be used to completely strip armor, it put status weapons in a fun place to use for high level gameplay. But I'm not going to pretend that the situation today is still the same, when all my testing confirms that is most definitely isn't. 

 

[chaotea]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

It causes 50 second radiation procs. It's really fun to use as a crowd control tactic

Actually a great idea for solo interseption steel path.

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

In the first 10-20 shots where your status weapon has stripped armor down to 20% reduction, my crit weapon has also stripped armor, not all the way down to 20%, but maybe to 40%. So, I have gained a 6x multiplier from status, while you have gained a 8x multiplier. But, mine multiplies with my crit damage multiplier, so my overall multiplier is now a 5*6 = 30x multiplier! 

Thats only the case if you've only got 1 debuff status on your weapon. Usually by 10-20 shots with a 100%+ status, youve not only dont your armor strip, but also applied the stacking damage stats. The big damage meta at the moment is ensuring you have viral and fire, as it quickly ramps up the damage, and strips armor.

Im not saying crit is bad, or anyway inferior. Im just argueing against the point where you said status was nerfed. Its very strong right now, especially for melee with conditioned overload.

For melee, a mixed build is king. But for Zaw building, its best to build for whatever gets the highest stat, crit or status, and make a build out of that. Building high crit on a weapon blade and handle with lower crit and higher status makes it a less valueable weapon than it might otherwise be. Thats all.

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

But I'm not going to pretend that the situation today is still the same, when all my testing confirms that is most definitely isn't. 

Im just putting this out there though, im running Steel Path right now, and all my weapon focus on status more than crit. In fact ive not got any real crit mods on atm. And its alot easier than when i was trying with high crit. Mostly because high level enemies arnt all about being killed. (Im guessing your tests might be in simulacrum with AI off). Fire procs stun enemies, meaning its value against high level enemies is way more important than pure damage. Of course, its often worth swapping to those high crits builds for bosses, who are often status immune.

What does need a buff atm is some of the less useful status types. Fire, Gas, Viral, Slash and Corrosive are the only ones getting much love. Rads ok, but nothing tends to live long enough to make it worth stacking (though after your comment im interested in trying some builds. Maybe some status duration buffs.) Elec, Ice, poison could do with a relook i think.