Mission Failed - An outdated game style for the warframe universe.

[NekroArts]

25 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

-snip-

I never understood why players would do the abort in public groups; solo is fine, but public is like "why besides being a troll". I remember when acolytes first came out and the mod that drop was automatically identified, so many aborts caused chained host migrations. 

[Steel_Rook]

9 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Got the one rare resource drop (argon, nitain, rare mod, etc) you needed in the mission?  Just abort mission/kill yourself and get it back to your inventory faster than finishing the mission! Got the drop from a specific node, POI, or enemy unit (such as javlock capacitors)?  Then abort mission/kill yourself to get it back to your inventory faster then finishing the mission!

A few points here:

Firstly - if this was such a rampant issue with Ground and Railjack missions, why does it not appear to be an issue in Free Roam maps? I've never, not once, had a player just bail half-way through a Bounty. Sure, sometimes they'll bail AFTER a Bounty before we can start a new one (usually when trying to do multiple Iso Vaults), but I've never had one go "Hey, I got my Cetus Wisp. Smell ya later!" After all, you keep everything you've earned in those missions by solo-extracting. I HAVE seen it in Sanctuary Onslaught, where players will stay for something like 3 waves and then bail for seemingly no reason, but there's usually someone who'll stick around for 6-8. So what makes ground missions so much more susceptible to this, do you think?

Personally, I feel this is an issue with mission design, not penalties for failure. For whatever reason (likely just copying run-of-the-mill dungeon crawlers like they're known to), DE put the majority of a mission's rewards on enemy kills, rather than objectives. If that Argon you're looking for drops from finishing a "stage" of the mission rather than just randomly pops off an enemy, people might be more willing to stay and actually finish said objectives. If it drops off of secondary or optional objectives, people might be more willing to explore for those. As to people leaving early - this wouldn't be such a problem if more missions were modular, ala Bounties and Endless runs. It's not like this game is a stranger to letting players abort half-way through and keep their rewards. Hell, even the normally laconic pubbies of this game will usually pipe up in chat with "Are we staying for 8 waves?" or "Last wave for me."

I'd argue that missions without the capacity to voluntarily leave part-way through are a minority in this game - pretty much restricted to legacy ground node modes... And Railjack, for some bizarre reason. I fully expected Railjack to work like a Free Roam map, but instead it acts like a legacy ground mission.

 

Secondly - I don't think anyone here is proposing letting players keep their rewards when dying or manually aborting. The OP was pretty explicit about dying, and I was pretty explicit about the "physicality" of it. If you want to abort, you can - but you have to manually walk over to the evac location, be it Landing Craft or Railjack or what have you. As I said above - this is already the case for a majority of missions and those seem to work just fine without an epidemic of leavers. Hell, if DE weren't so anal about letting in late joiners, then said leavers could be replaced by new players rather than sandbagging the mission by leaving you a player short.

I understand you're worried about players deliberately failing objectives and thus sabotaging the mission for everyone else, but to me that's easily solvable by letting them leave WITHOUT having to die or fail the mission. AKA, "solo extraction." With VERY few exceptions, there's no mission you can't finish by yourself. Sure, there are concerns with Host Migration (which can't be alleviated until DE let us explicitly choose to host, which they should), but that seems to work reasonably well these days. I don't think host migration should be treated as some kind of last resort mechanic, personally.

Overall, I don't see the harm in letting players leave after a failed mission objective rather than being kicked out of the mission with no rewards. Plenty of game modes already allow this. Railjack is the one big outlier in this regard, largely because it's "new" yet seems to use very old mechanics in this respect.

[Tsukinoki]

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

If that Argon you're looking for drops from finishing a "stage" of the mission rather than just randomly pops off an enemy, people might be more willing to stay and actually finish said objectives

I agree with you that a change like that would solve some of the issues...but unlike you I have ran into people in bounties that go "Oh I got the stage reward that I was after, I'm out!" and they just leave after the first or second stage in a mission (an example would be how effed the fortuna missions were when star days dropped and people needed Familial debt bonds for the items, and it was faster to run stage one of the tier 5 bounty, abort/fail the bounty, re-run then to actually do the full bounty).
Its less common sure, and mostly because the good rewards are behind the final stage of the bounties meaning if you leave early you have no chance at that final potentially good reward you're after so you have to stick around.

And your example of wisps is quite funny as its faster to farm for wisps by reloading the plains and running circuits then to attempt to get them from bounties and that is what most players do when they need to farm for wisps, which is why you don't see people abort farming bounties for wisps unlike what we saw with familial debt bonds in fortuna.

But regardless: As long as it is faster to do a side objective and then fail/leave and they keep their rewards, and as long as the rewards for finishing the mission aren't good enough (super rare mods where it is the only source, or frame parts or the like, which are only "good enough" as long as the player doesn't have them already) then you'll run across people that just want X, they got X so they are going to leave instead of "wasting" the extra few minutes needed to finish the rest of the objectives.

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Secondly - I don't think anyone here is proposing letting players keep their rewards when dying or manually aborting. The OP was pretty explicit about dying, and I was pretty explicit about the "physicality" of it. If you want to abort, you can - but you have to manually walk over to the evac location, be it Landing Craft or Railjack or what have you. As I said above - this is already the case for a majority of missions and those seem to work just fine without an epidemic of leavers. Hell, if DE weren't so anal about letting in late joiners, then said leavers could be replaced by new players rather than sandbagging the mission by leaving you a player short.

And the missions that let you leave "early" are actually fairly few:
-Bounties
-Endless missions (where "early" depends entirely on how far your group wants to go and there are tons of people on the forums that complain about "early" leavers just abandoning the missions)

Every single non-endless mission doesn't have a "Leave whenever you want!" mechanic...and those are the majority of mission nodes in the game actually.
I mean you can't leave early in a sabotage mission after opening 3 caches but not disabling the reactor.  You can't leave early in a rescue mission before you get the target.  You can't leave early in a capture mission before you capture the target.  You can't leave an MDef after only a single console is defended.
So I have to disagree that "the majority of missions" allow someone to just leave whenever they feel like it.

Further it raises a question:
How many missions would this change actually affect?  MDef, Def, Defection, Disruption, Rescue, Capture, railjack, and Spy.  And that's it.  Those are the only mission types you can fail without running the entire squad out of revives to do so....and 3 of them are endless missions that you can leave at every rotation which normally doesn't take that long to get through, and one of them varies widely of whether you can fail that one without burning through everyones revives or not.  And yet in pretty much every single one of those its generally faster to go "Ok we got X, lets bail because that is much faster than finishing the mission...." as was evidenced by the corpus loot cave issue.

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I understand you're worried about players deliberately failing objectives and thus sabotaging the mission for everyone else, but to me that's easily solvable by letting them leave WITHOUT having to die or fail the mission. AKA, "solo extraction." With VERY few exceptions, there's no mission you can't finish by yourself. Sure, there are concerns with Host Migration (which can't be alleviated until DE let us explicitly choose to host, which they should), but that seems to work reasonably well these days. I don't think host migration should be treated as some kind of last resort mechanic, personally.

And in quite a few cases depending on the player leaving it still sabotages the game mode for the other players.  Especially if they happen to be playing with newer players or playing the frame suited to the mission (frost/gara/limbo in def/mdef/excavation for example).

And host migration still fails often enough and kicks you back to your orbiter with absolutely nothing to show for it (or bugs the mission out completely) that its still an utter crap shoot and not worth betting on.

Personally I would rather lose rewards if the mission fails or I have to abort for some reason than have the constant risk of "Will there be a host migration that causes everything to go sideways and ruin the mission and lose everything for the majority of the squad?"

12 hours ago, NekroArts said:

I never understood why players would do the abort in public groups; solo is fine, but public is like "why besides being a troll". I remember when acolytes first came out and the mod that drop was automatically identified, so many aborts caused chained host migrations. 

Besides trolling its "I've already spent so long grinding this I just want to speed up my grind!" or "If I do it faster I'll get more plat for this!"
Basically they don't care how much it inconveniences everyone else in the group, they got what they want and that's all they care about.

[Steel_Rook]

28 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

But regardless: As long as it is faster to do a side objective and then fail/leave and they keep their rewards, and as long as the rewards for finishing the mission aren't good enough (super rare mods where it is the only source, or frame parts or the like, which are only "good enough" as long as the player doesn't have them already) then you'll run across people that just want X, they got X so they are going to leave instead of "wasting" the extra few minutes needed to finish the rest of the objectives.

Like I said, though - that's an issue with mission objectives, not the core concept. It shouldn't BE faster to run just one stage of a Bounty then leave and repeat. That's obviously not the reality of it, with Installant being probably the best recent example. High chance for Scintillant on Stage 1, medium on Stage 2, nothing on Stage 3. So why NOT just repeat Stage 1 over and over again? But I ask the question the other way around: Why is Scintillat - one of THE rarest drops on Deimos - in Stage 1 of the bounty in the first place? The only reason I can figure is it's Stage 3 of the 5-15 Bounty, so it makes sense for it to be a lower stage in a higher level Bounty, right? Well... No, not really. You want your most desirable rewards to be available behind the median expected behaviour, which is to say "full mission participation."

This is going off-topic so I'll cut it short here, but that's the gist of it. Yes, I suppose in the current implementation of rewards distribution, preventing players from getting partial credit is a means of forcing players to run entire missions. To me, the solution to that is to fix the sodding drop tables al-#*!%ing-ready! This game seriously has one of the most unpleasant, grindiest F2P progression systems I've seen and not always because it's stingy. All too often, it's bad because it's simply badly designed. OF COURSE I'm going to try to optimise my farming if I'm having to run a single mission only for a specific item. But again - going off-topic.

 

34 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

And the missions that let you leave "early" are actually fairly few:
-Bounties
-Endless missions (where "early" depends entirely on how far your group wants to go and there are tons of people on the forums that complain about "early" leavers just abandoning the missions)

Err... That's a very loaded way of counting them. Those two groups of missions cover a LOT of ground and constitute over half the game's full body of content - or thereabout, at least. That's not "fairly few." That's kind of my point. Warframe already has plenty of missions with an "early leave" option, many of those with a "leave on failure" option. Despite the occasional complaint about early leavers, those mission types still work just fine, never seem to have a shortage of public matchmaking participants and rarely generate much publicity. The last time I saw Endless missions get any headlines was Nightwave Season 1, and that was from people who didn't like running them.

I have to concede at this point that yes - I see the issue you're getting at. I just don't believe the issue outweighs the cost of attempting to fix it. I typically fall on the same side regarding many of the game's attempts to police player behaviour, from AFK penalties to Tenno Affinity range, to loot sharing and so on. I'm willing to chance bad team-mates if it means less intrusive restrictions on my experience. I am, however, biased here as the majority of my playtime is spent either alone or with people I already know. From that perspective, I'm seeing a lot of additional restrictions solving issues I literally don't run into.

 

40 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

How many missions would this change actually affect?  MDef, Def, Defection, Disruption, Rescue, Capture, railjack, and Spy.  And that's it.  Those are the only mission types you can fail without running the entire squad out of revives to do so....and 3 of them are endless missions that you can leave at every rotation which normally doesn't take that long to get through, and one of them varies widely of whether you can fail that one without burning through everyones revives or not.  And yet in pretty much every single one of those its generally faster to go "Ok we got X, lets bail because that is much faster than finishing the mission...." as was evidenced by the corpus loot cave issue.

This confuses me. You just got done saying that missions with an early leave option are "actually fairly few," then you proceed to explain that missions that "this will affect" - meaning missions without the ability to leave early and leave on failure - are themselves very few. How can both of these things be true? They're mutually exclusive.

And then there's the assertion that in a majority of some subset of missions, it's faster to go "OK, we got X, let's bail?" What? How does that work? In which missions is this true? I'm willing to allow for some people being bizarrely single-minded and quitting the mission after a single Argon drops, but that's a rare exception. What are these missions that people would be routinely quitting from getting "X?" What even is X in this case? I know it's a catch-all, but what-all is it catching? Because I can't really think of much that would actually fall in that category very fast. Most objective loot drops as Unidentified so you don't actually know whether you got the item you were after and I can't really think of much else that drops directly from enemies.

And even if there is stuff that routinely drops off enemies, this brings me back to the point above - this is a mission design issue because important, sought-after items have no business dropping directly from enemies in the first place. This entire line of argument genuinely confuses me. Can you offer some examples, perhaps?

 

45 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Personally I would rather lose rewards if the mission fails or I have to abort for some reason than have the constant risk of "Will there be a host migration that causes everything to go sideways and ruin the mission and lose everything for the majority of the squad?"

You say that like it's a reasonable trade - like the only reason players bail on you is because they got the item they wanted. I would presume - and I say this from experience - that players are just as likely to leave a mission early if they DIDN'T get the item they were after. Again - Deimos Scinitllant Bounties do exactly this. Did you get Scintillant on Stage 1? If not, abandon and retry. Since I've no solid idea what exact context you're envisioning people quitting in, I can't speak to how realistic it sounds to me, but I'd expect to see as many leavers from NOT getting the drop they were after as from getting it, if not more so. Forcing players to finish the mission isn't going to save that. If a player knows they missed their shot at getting the item they want, why not just leave? And if players don't know they missed their shot, how can they know they got it?

Again, most meaningful rewards drop off of objective completion. Even bosses don't really drop items any more - those keep getting moved to mission completion. I think Kela is the only one who still drops a physical item that players need to pick up, and even that drops as Unidentified. Hell, Steel Path got changed specifically to move Steel Essence off of random enemy kills and onto semi-scripted Accolyte spawns, themselves loosely tied to mission objectives. I don't see this pledge actually getting you much of what you want, is my point.

[Famecans]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

If that Argon you're looking for drops from finishing a "stage" of the mission rather than just randomly pops off an enemy, people might be more willing to stay and actually finish said objectives

I agree with you that a change like that would solve some of the issues...but unlike you I have ran into people in bounties that go "Oh I got the stage reward that I was after, I'm out!" and they just leave after the first or second stage in a mission (an example would be how effed the fortuna missions were when star days dropped and people needed Familial debt bonds for the items, and it was faster to run stage one of the tier 5 bounty, abort/fail the bounty, re-run then to actually do the full bounty).
Its less common sure, and mostly because the good rewards are behind the final stage of the bounties meaning if you leave early you have no chance at that final potentially good reward you're after so you have to stick around.

And your example of wisps is quite funny as its faster to farm for wisps by reloading the plains and running circuits then to attempt to get them from bounties and that is what most players do when they need to farm for wisps, which is why you don't see people abort farming bounties for wisps unlike what we saw with familial debt bonds in fortuna.

But regardless: As long as it is faster to do a side objective and then fail/leave and they keep their rewards, and as long as the rewards for finishing the mission aren't good enough (super rare mods where it is the only source, or frame parts or the like, which are only "good enough" as long as the player doesn't have them already) then you'll run across people that just want X, they got X so they are going to leave instead of "wasting" the extra few minutes needed to finish the rest of the objectives.

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Secondly - I don't think anyone here is proposing letting players keep their rewards when dying or manually aborting. The OP was pretty explicit about dying, and I was pretty explicit about the "physicality" of it. If you want to abort, you can - but you have to manually walk over to the evac location, be it Landing Craft or Railjack or what have you. As I said above - this is already the case for a majority of missions and those seem to work just fine without an epidemic of leavers. Hell, if DE weren't so anal about letting in late joiners, then said leavers could be replaced by new players rather than sandbagging the mission by leaving you a player short.

And the missions that let you leave "early" are actually fairly few:
-Bounties
-Endless missions (where "early" depends entirely on how far your group wants to go and there are tons of people on the forums that complain about "early" leavers just abandoning the missions)

Every single non-endless mission doesn't have a "Leave whenever you want!" mechanic...and those are the majority of mission nodes in the game actually.
I mean you can't leave early in a sabotage mission after opening 3 caches but not disabling the reactor.  You can't leave early in a rescue mission before you get the target.  You can't leave early in a capture mission before you capture the target.  You can't leave an MDef after only a single console is defended.
So I have to disagree that "the majority of missions" allow someone to just leave whenever they feel like it.

Further it raises a question:
How many missions would this change actually affect?  MDef, Def, Defection, Disruption, Rescue, Capture, railjack, and Spy.  And that's it.  Those are the only mission types you can fail without running the entire squad out of revives to do so....and 3 of them are endless missions that you can leave at every rotation which normally doesn't take that long to get through, and one of them varies widely of whether you can fail that one without burning through everyones revives or not.  And yet in pretty much every single one of those its generally faster to go "Ok we got X, lets bail because that is much faster than finishing the mission...." as was evidenced by the corpus loot cave issue.

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I understand you're worried about players deliberately failing objectives and thus sabotaging the mission for everyone else, but to me that's easily solvable by letting them leave WITHOUT having to die or fail the mission. AKA, "solo extraction." With VERY few exceptions, there's no mission you can't finish by yourself. Sure, there are concerns with Host Migration (which can't be alleviated until DE let us explicitly choose to host, which they should), but that seems to work reasonably well these days. I don't think host migration should be treated as some kind of last resort mechanic, personally.

And in quite a few cases depending on the player leaving it still sabotages the game mode for the other players.  Especially if they happen to be playing with newer players or playing the frame suited to the mission (frost/gara/limbo in def/mdef/excavation for example).

And host migration still fails often enough and kicks you back to your orbiter with absolutely nothing to show for it (or bugs the mission out completely) that its still an utter crap shoot and not worth betting on.

Personally I would rather lose rewards if the mission fails or I have to abort for some reason than have the constant risk of "Will there be a host migration that causes everything to go sideways and ruin the mission and lose everything for the majority of the squad?"

13 hours ago, NekroArts said:

I never understood why players would do the abort in public groups; solo is fine, but public is like "why besides being a troll". I remember when acolytes first came out and the mod that drop was automatically identified, so many aborts caused chained host migrations. 

Besides trolling its "I've already spent so long grinding this I just want to speed up my grind!" or "If I do it faster I'll get more plat for this!"
Basically they don't care how much it inconveniences everyone else in the group, they got what they want and that's all they care about.

the extraction is not instantaneous the player needs to spend an "extraction item" to starts an extraction timer and if he does not have this extractor item he need open doors with parazon to find the map extraction.

I suggest that "abort mission button" be replaced by "logout button" so the player will be required to extract any resources into orbital. if host logout will be the same as host "abort mission", the host will be migrated but the host lose any resources collected.

it is currently not possible to enter missions later objective is completed. no player will be able to join team if the mission has failed, no player will be able to join team if the mission is completed. the player must complete the main mission to unlock nodes in solar system.

[Deminisis]

Lotus: "oh no... you let the rescue target die? Well leave all the credits and mods you got from drops. You don't deserve them anymore."