Some mods encouraging the use of gun over melee

[lukinu_u]

With primary weapons buff through mod being a hot topic, I want to share a few ideas related to that.

Before starting, I want to explain the general idea around these mods, because they might seems off without said idea in mind.

What I have in mind is to add a serie of mods that encourage using melee as a support for gun, like you would do with a status primary weapon as support for a condition overload melee. Or at least, encourage a good synergy between the two.
 

(Melee) : Combo multiplier decrease your melee damage by -8% (-88% at max combo), but increase your guns damage by +22% (+220% at max combo).
This mod is obviously intended for pure gun fight, since it drastically reduce your melee damage output, but also make combo build up easier on low health target for the same reason.

(Melee) : Gun kills add +5 to the combo counter.
This provide an alternative to build up your combo if you really don't want to get close to an enemy. Considering how fast combo building is, this mod will generally be a wasted slot unless you have a very specific startegy in mind, generally related to gun focused gameplay.

(Melee) : Heavy attack buff your next primary weapon magazine with +25% critical damage per enemy hit.
Increasing the effect per enemy instead of combo multiplier avoid just making it a brainless max combo build up followed by a single target heavy attack. It instead involve some placement and preperation for best results.
If multiple heavy attacks are performed before reloading, the highest value will be kept.

(Melee) : Heavy attack will create a 3m radius beam with infinite punch through and forced impact proc. 10s cooldown.
Intended to provide an alternative to proc the mod above. Instead of stacking enemies and heavy melee them, you can just line them up.

(Melee) : Heavy attack will recharge +1% of your magazine per enemy hit if your combo multipler is above 3.
Allow the use of heavy attack to maintain some of the effect appening on the current clip, but only if you have a reliable way to keep feeding your combo counter to trigger the effect.

(Primary) : Each primary weapon kill increase the range of the next melee attack by 2m.
This mod is intented to provide a gun play alternative to stacking combo, or simply increase the range of heavy attack, either for damage or for triggering effects.

(Primary) : When combo counter is empty headshot ignore armor, deal +500% damage and add +50 to the combo counter.
This one is intended to provide an interesting way to engage combat with high damage single target weapons. It has the pontential to be extremly strong with negative combo mods, which is why I added the +50 combo on trigger.

(Primary) : Manually reloading consume your combo counter to increase your critical damage by +20% per combo counter (+220% at max combo) for 10s.
This one synergize well with some of the mods above, but also deplete your combo counter, which mean you will need a reliable way to build up combo fast if you want to combine this mod with others mod scaling with combo.

[KitMeHarder]

I appreciate the effort you put into this, but I don't think this is a healthy direction for the game. We don't need to encourage the use of stat-sticks.

[keikogi]

I kind off had a similar idea but for a system wide change to make 

If you want to check it out  here it is 

Unifying Melee and Ranged Combo

The pivotal problem is melee has combo,  guns don't have it so the game itself enforces linear playstyle. Also the combo mods where created assuming combo was hard to build and easy to drop and these days combo is easy to build an impossible to drop ( on top off the whole build up pay off nature off the current system is enterely undermined by the mods removing the set up phase or making having combo better than using it ). 

The problem of trying to fix the unbalanced nature odf the system with mods is there a are limited mod slots so these mods have to be remarkable op or they are not worth it. For example, the combo generation mod only gives the gun an ability melee has by default with the high fee off a mod slot ( at least 90% elemental damage mod as a opportunity cost ). For the reload critical mod to even be.considerable you have to always beat al least combo 6 every 10 seconds ( that's just to break even with vital sense not accounting for any reload time waste )

[Yasha-7HS]

Most of these don't make sense in the grand scheme of modding, and this ignores the style of melee weapons that can be used solely to spread procs or an effect (like Telos Boltace) while you swap off to a different melee weapon (like Exalted Blade) 

This simply creates the same problem the Arcane Blade Charger, Arcane Primary Charger, Residual and Theorem sets all have. You're demanding doing more actions and putting more thought into the game when it requires less than a tenth of it at all, and also getting half of the benefit just playing the game without all these annoying micromechanics. Why do any of this when Nova slows and nukes tiles with nearly any weapon she picks up? Why care about the damage of your weapons when all you need is something that can pop Spores for Saryn? Why swap back and forth from your melee to your guns when you can fire Penta a single time into Magnetize? 

We don't need band-aid mods to fix problems we have with base mechanics of how the game functions.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 45 minutes, KitMeHarder a dit :

I appreciate the effort you put into this, but I don't think this is a healthy direction for the game. We don't need to encourage the use of stat-sticks.

I agree we don't need more stat-stick, but I'm not sure it really count as stat stick if we have to use the weapon to get the benefits.
I mean, it's just just a passive stat buff, it's a buff to another weapon on condition that encourage synergy, a bit like recent Baro Ki'Teer Glaive mods.

Also, I think if introduced correctly, it allow a much deeper theory craft because you would think and mod your whole loadout depending synergies you want instead of just modding each item as best as you can separately.
 

il y a 53 minutes, keikogi a dit :

I kind off had a similar idea but for a system wide change to make 

If you want to check it out  here it is 

Unifying Melee and Ranged Combo

The pivotal problem is melee has combo,  guns don't have it so the game itself enforces linear playstyle. Also the combo mods where created assuming combo was hard to build and easy to drop and these days combo is easy to build an impossible to drop ( on top off the whole build up pay off nature off the current system is enterely undermined by the mods removing the set up phase or making having combo better than using it ). 

The problem of trying to fix the unbalanced nature odf the system with mods is there a are limited mod slots so these mods have to be remarkable op or they are not worth it. For example, the combo generation mod only gives the gun an ability melee has by default with the high fee off a mod slot ( at least 90% elemental damage mod as a opportunity cost ). For the reload critical mod to even be.considerable you have to always beat al least combo 6 every 10 seconds ( that's just to break even with vital sense not accounting for any reload time waste )

Converting combo into a universal " weapon devil trigger" is a clever idea tha would fix the current combo issue.
It could also change the current combo base mods into mods that only trigger during the "devil trigger", so they are wasted modslots when you are in normal mod but have insane values in said mode.

As for the mod problem slots problem, I think it's more a good point than a flaw. The limited slot count make the use of these special mods much more difficult to use efficiently together because of the conditions, or simply the too big DPS decrease if they are mostly utility mod. This have to be balanced wisely though, and it's not necessarily easy.
 

il y a 36 minutes, ShichiseitenYasha a dit :

Most of these don't make sense in the grand scheme of modding, and this ignores the style of melee weapons that can be used solely to spread procs or an effect (like Telos Boltace) while you swap off to a different melee weapon (like Exalted Blade) 

This simply creates the same problem the Arcane Blade Charger, Arcane Primary Charger, Residual and Theorem sets all have. You're demanding doing more actions and putting more thought into the game when it requires less than a tenth of it at all, and also getting half of the benefit just playing the game without all these annoying micromechanics. Why do any of this when Nova slows and nukes tiles with nearly any weapon she picks up? Why care about the damage of your weapons when all you need is something that can pop Spores for Saryn? Why swap back and forth from your melee to your guns when you can fire Penta a single time into Magnetize? 

We don't need band-aid mods to fix problems we have with base mechanics of how the game functions.

I'm not sure considering these mods "useless" because they require more action is the right approach. If you think this way, 99% of the game content is useless because there is one specific loadout that is just enough to clear the game and is also the one requiring the less effort.

I think these type of mods are aimed for more experienced players that want to increase their overall strength by using condition based mods, because they can reliably use them at their advantage. A very simple but good example is Hydraulic Crosshairs : it is only 12.5% better than Pistol Gambit (ignore prime version) and work on condition, but it's just a free damage increase you already reliably land headshots.
I think we don't need a plain DPS increase for guns, but a buff in specific playstyles through mods encouraging their use, that could either be used alone comfortably, or provide a much bigger increase if used together, but requiring more skill and knowledge.

The main issue about the arcanes you stated above isn't really the way they work, but the fact they aren't even good if used correctly :

• Blade Charge is just weaker than Condition Overload (even if stackable) and you're better replace it with Arcane Strike.
• Arcane Primary Charger is actually a good replacement for Serration if you have no better arcane to slot there.
• Residual and Theorems sets aren't that bad, the just need some tweaks, such as high spawn chance anrd range for Residuals, and maybe higher cap for the Theorems to make the multi stack mechanic more interesting.

[KitMeHarder]

17 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I agree we don't need more stat-stick, but I'm not sure it really count as stat stick if we have to use the weapon to get the benefits.

That's like saying when people used the Xoris to tap a couple enemies and build up the Gladiator set for their exalteds, made it not a stat-stick. And only 2 of your mods truly encourage you to use your melee, of which the crit chance one doesn't have a duration, so it encourages getting one big buff and never using it again so you don't reset it (Eject Magazine, Bows, etc...).

Whenever you mod a weapon in way that wouldn't make itself better, and only do it to "passively" buff another piece of gear, that's a stat-stick. It doesn't matter if you lightly hit an enemy a couple times to get those passives, if you aren't damaging (to kill) or debuffing enemies, it's a stat-stick all the same. It doesn't have to be completely passive like a Jaw Sword, Mire, Prisma Burst Laser, etc...

[keikogi]

5 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Converting combo into a universal " weapon devil trigger" is a clever idea tha would fix the current combo issue.
It could also change the current combo base mods into mods that only trigger during the "devil trigger", so they are wasted modslots when you are in normal mod but have insane values in said mode.

Most off them where reworked and placed on a new "pet" the spirit creature that fuels your devil trigger. I was going to desing 5 of them 1 for each focus school but I've ran into problems with the creatures chosen and their desings.

5 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Also, I think if introduced correctly, it allow a much deeper theory craft because you would think and mod your whole loadout depending synergies you want instead of just modding each item as best as you can separately

After seeing the old chanelling system failing for that exact reason I would beg to differ. The problem is we have to many layers off computing mutiplier so loosing 1 layer odd compounding mutiplier makes the weapon 50% weaker than it was. Also making the mutiplier to strong would easily recreate the funneling issue ( using only the weapon modded for devil trigger during the devil trigger) but the point odf the system is to make it not "enforce" a play style. Frankly the problem is gun modding is more off a math problem than a play style / adaptation tool.

[TenTonneSkeleton]

One possible solution is to introduce more primed damage mods for all guns. Primed Blunderbuss for example would be awesome.

 

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I appreciate the effort you put into this, but I don't think this is a healthy direction for the game. We don't need to encourage the use of stat-sticks.

One thing that would be nice is if carrying one weapon by itself applied some sort of buff. Like melee speed is increased when holding just the melee. More ammo when holding just a primary or secondary. Stuff like that. Cause obviously carrying less weapons would make certain things easier. Maybe it could be some extra mod slot where carrying a specific weapon by itself would have a certain buff applied, at no cost. 
 

Either way, it would make solo weapon users or conditions easier/more “fun” for some players. Adding things like while on K-Drives you can hold out your melee. You can’t swing but enemies you fly into would take a heavy momentum melee damage depending on how fast you were going. Kind of pictured something like that for an Mach Rush augment mod. I’ve ran with a lot of momentum. It’s hard to swing while running at such high speeds and momentum, but just one single yet difficult swing can deal a lot of damage. I’ve grabbed dudes like 3 times my size and threw them like 10 feet or so. So imagine what Gauss could do with a melee during Mach Rush.