A way to mitigate the unfairness of RNG in mission drops

[quxier]

51 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Just Roaming around when... Oh an post udpated. and Very well done.

I don't have time to comment but :

1. VERY GOOD JOB for the full details 👍👍👍 (this deserve a +1 Like)
2. Updating the original post is a good thing, thks for "easying" the read. 👍
3. The "excess medals could be sold for credits" could really help new players, best side idea ! Really love this one

Now clearly I understand a lot more what you Imagine, I'm not 100% for it but as it made me remember the almost forgetten and ignored "Challenges" like "Savior of Neptune". My instinct tell me it is good start.

I'll come back later for more details.

 

Zoh_Veldae, This is very good job indeed 😉, yo quxier what da ya think ?

First I haven't really tried your method (I need to try it on my own to understand). I'll get it when I have some time/mood.

As for OP change:

Some numbers are very huge compared to others. Compare Ember & Ash. With Ember you need to kill that guy at most 10 times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvU4rKPnsBY some person kills him in less than 5 minutes. For RJ survival you need at least 20 minutes to get 4 Medals from last rotation, 8 Medals total. Add RJ part and it gets more than 20 minutes. That's 3 hours & 20 minutes WITHOUT COUNTING RJ PART. I wonder if I can farm enough stuffs to buy whole frame + slot + reactor in that time.

 

[Zoh_Veldae]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

First I haven't really tried your method (I need to try it on my own to understand). I'll get it when I have some time/mood.

As for OP change:

Some numbers are very huge compared to others. Compare Ember & Ash. With Ember you need to kill that guy at most 10 times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvU4rKPnsBY some person kills him in less than 5 minutes. For RJ survival you need at least 20 minutes to get 4 Medals from last rotation, 8 Medals total. Add RJ part and it gets more than 20 minutes. That's 3 hours & 20 minutes WITHOUT COUNTING RJ PART. I wonder if I can farm enough stuffs to buy whole frame + slot + reactor in that time.

 

Like I wrote, tried to make the numbers equivalent to 10 attempts, to have people actually play the mission and understand the mechanics and not just gloss over it and regret it later when something similar shows up and they have no idea what to do, but not enough times to be irritatingly repetitive.

While writing that list I also thought of just consolidating all medals into just the Mission Type (ex.: Instead of "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal" or "Veil Proxima Defense Medal" to just have it grant "Assassination Medal" and "Defense Medal" for all matching mission types) , instead of one for every different mission and simply have the shop stock "unlock" if you complete the respective mission once. But then I thought that'd defeat the purpose I mentioned above.

It may seem like a whole lot of different item types to add, but I believe the "Open World" updates have introduced far more different items in one go.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

Like I wrote, tried to make the numbers equivalent to 10 attempts, to have people actually play the mission and understand the mechanics and not just gloss over it and regret it later when something similar shows up and they have no idea what to do, but not enough times to be irritatingly repetitive.

The thing with RJ it's repetitive. For Solo player (me), even more. For me it's just "go to ship" and "go shoot some stuffs outside" repeated few times before I go to any defense/orphix/survi/etc. We probably know that "basic" stuffs already because they are repeated over different type of REAL MISSION (survi, defense etc). And what higher missions adds? Yeah, you guessed it - MORE REPETITION.

As for defense, survi etc - we know them as well. There are Orphix, Volatile and maybe 1 more that are new.

 

x10 attempts are good for something like bosses and first time beating normal (non open world nor RJ) missions (defense, survi etc). What's the difference between lowest level survi and Kuva's survi? Almost 0. There is this Kuva thing... but when I've been farming for Harrow I've just been doing normal Survi. I could just set up my gear to melt high level enemies for hours... but I want to play a little. However you and DE still wants me to play for such long time.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2021-12-27 at 8:09 AM, Zoh_Veldae said:

TL:DR

In a single sentence:

Adding mission-specific guaranteed token items that can then be exchanged for a drop of that respective mission at the player's choice to reduce the unfairness of RNG and value the player's efforts.

 

As for the unabridged version of this suggestion:

I don't know if this was suggested before or not, but I'll post it here.

The RNG of Warframe is out of control and not fun to play with at all. My suggestion will be based on a certain critically acclaimed MMO about Jobs, Crystals and a free trial up to level 60 that I'm pretty sure I can't name in these forums. They too have a slight issue with RNG but they've developed a way to fix that which I believe could very easily be implemented in Warframe.
I suggest implementing a guaranteed "token item" drop in multiple missions that can be accumulated to then be traded in for the drops of the respective mission at the player's choice.
I'll provide an example: say you're farming the Kela De Thaym Assassination mission to get the blueprints for the Saryn warframe. Currently, you get a guaranteed drop at a part, but which part of the three required will be completely random. Let's assume you go 10 attempts and only have several Neuroptics and Systems but not a single Chassis. Your only choice will be to try again and again to get the part you're missing, which may not even drop for another 10, 20, 100 attempts if you're particularly unlucky.
Clearly, this is not fun.
My suggested solution would be to implement a guaranteed token drop on each attempt. In the example provided, let's call this token a "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal". With this implemented, if the same scenario occurs and after 10 attempts you're still missing a piece to complete the Saryn warframe, you can then exchange 10 of those medals for the specific piece you're missing. You're still putting in the effort to get the warframe, but now it's not just up to RNG whether you actually get what you want or not.
On other mission types besides Assassination this could also be implemented but with a few changes. Let's use an adequate example with the Ivara warframe. Each of her parts has a chance to be acquired by acquiring all 3 intel in the mission, with the specific part rewarded being dependent on the level of the mission, mainly divided into 3 Spy mission ranks. With the suggested guaranteed token system, you would receive a token based on that mission level, specifically a "Bronze Spy Medal" for level 1-15, "Silver Spy Medal" for level 16-25 and "Gold Spy Medal" for level 26+. More variants could be introduced like "Lua Spy Medal" or "Kuva Spy Medal" for the respective Spy mission unique drop tables. With this system, you would be able to acquire the specific drop you want from that mission without having to depend on luck exclusively.

Thank you for your time, I hope this suggestion is understandable

 

:UPDATE:

To better illustrate what I mean, I will leave here a comprehensive listing of what could be traded for what medals and where to get them:

  Reveal hidden contents

Currently, these numbers pertain only to warframe parts acquisition, but the same medals could be used to acquire other items in the same drop tables. Additionally, excess medals could be sold for credits via the inventory screen or traded universally for common rewards such as Forma Blueprints or Endo.

 

Methods of Acquisition:
    Assassination Medals: 1 medal for each successful mission
    Defense Medals: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Survival Medals: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Spy Medals: 1 medal for each mission complete with 3 intel collected (regardless of "undetected" feat achieved or not)
    Sanctuary Onslaught Medal: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Bounty Medals: 1 medal per complete bounty (regardless if bonus objectives are complete or not)
    Disruption Medals: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Void Fissure/Void Storm Medals: 1 medal per relic opened
    Infested Salvage Medals: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Cache Finder Medals: 1 medal per cache discovered
    Empyrean Medal: 1 medal for every successful mission with all objectives complete (including optional objectives)
    Granum Void Medal: 1 medal for every granum Void expedition with 100% kills required

 

Ash:
    Systems : "Venus Proxima Defense Medal" x80 OR "Venus Proxima Survival Medal" x80
    Chassis : "Pluto Proxima Defense Medal" x80 OR "Pluto Proxima Survival Medal" x80
    Neuroptics : "Neptune Proxima Defense Medal" x80 OR "Neptune Proxima Survival Medal" x80

Atlas:
    Systems : "Jordas Golem Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Jordas Golem Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Jordas Golem Assassination Medal" x10

Caliban:
    Systems : "Narmer Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Narmer Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Narmer Bounty Medal" x5

Ember:
    Systems : "General Sargas Ruk Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "General Sargas Ruk Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "General Sargas Ruk Assassination Medal" x10

Equinox:
    Day Systems : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Day Chassis : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Day Neuroptics : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Day Aspect : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Night Systems : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Night Chassis : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Night Neuroptics : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Night Aspect : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5

Excalibur:
    Systems : "Lieutenant Lech Kril Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Lieutenant Lech Kril Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Lieutenant Lech Kril Assassination Medal" x10

Frost:
    Systems : "Lieutenant & Captain Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Lieutenant & Captain Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Lieutenant & Captain Assassination Medal" x10

Gara:
    Systems : "Tier 2 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Tier 1 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Tier 3 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5

Garuda:
    Systems : "Tier 2 Fortuna Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Tier 1 Fortuna Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Tier 3 Fortuna Bounty Medal" x5

Gauss:
    Systems : "Disruption Gold Medal" x80
    Chassis : "Disruption Gold Medal" x80
    Neuroptics : "Disruption Gold Medal" x80
Harrow:
    Systems : "Defection Bronze Medal" x40 OR "Defection Silver Medal" x40 OR "Defection Gold Medal" x40 OR "Kuva Survival Medal" x80
    Chassis : "Void Fissure Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Kuva Spy Medal" x10 OR "Kuva Survival Medal" x80

Hildryn
    Systems : "Exploiter Orb Assassination Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Exploiter Orb Assassination Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Exploiter Orb Assassination Medal" x5

Hydroid
    Systems : "Councilor Vay Hek Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Councilor Vay Hek Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Councilor Vay Hek Assassination Medal" x10

Ivara
    Systems : "Spy Bronze Medal" x10 OR "Venus Proxima Spy Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Spy Silver Medal" x10 OR "Lua Spy Medal" x10 OR "Neptune Proxima Spy Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Spy Gold Medal" x10 OR "Pluto Proxima Spy Medal" x10
    Main Blueprint: "Spy Gold Medal" x10 OR "Veil Proxima Spy Medal" x10

Khora
    Systems : "Sanctuary Onslaught Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Sanctuary Onslaught Medal" x40
    Neuroptics : "Sanctuary Onslaught Medal" x20
    Main Blueprint: "Sanctuary Onslaught Medal" x10

Loki
    Systems : "Hyena Pack Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Hyena Pack Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Hyena Pack Assassination Medal" x10

Mag
    Systems : "Sergeant Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Sergeant Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Sergeant Assassination Medal" x10

Mesa
    Systems : "Mutalist Alad V Assassination Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Mutalist Alad V Assassination Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Mutalist Alad V Assassination Medal" x5

Nekros
    Systems : "Lephantis Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Lephantis Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Lephantis Assassination Medal" x10

Nidus
    Systems : "Infested Salvage Medal" x80
    Chassis : "Infested Salvage Medal" x80
    Neuroptics : "Infested Salvage Medal" x80

Nova
    Systems : "Raptor Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Raptor Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Raptor Assassination Medal" x10

Nyx
    Systems : "Phorid Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Phorid Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Phorid Assassination Medal" x10

Oberon
    Systems : "Earth Proxima Empyrean Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Saturn Proxima Empyrean Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Veil Proxima Empyrean Medal" x10

Octavia
    Systems : "Lua Cache Finder Medal" x5
    Chassis : (Not Applicable)
    Neuroptics : "Deimos Survival Medal" x80

Protea
    Systems : "Granum Void Gold Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Granum Void Silver Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Granum Void Bronze Medal" x5

Revenant
    Systems : "Tier 3 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Tier 4 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Tier 5 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5

Rhino
    Systems : "Jackal Assassination Medal x10
    Chassis : "Jackal Assassination Medal x10
    Neuroptics : "Jackal Assassination Medal x10

Saryn
    Systems : "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal" x10

Sevagoth
    Systems : "Neptune Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Pluto Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Veil Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Neptune Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Pluto Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Veil Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Neptune Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Pluto Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Veil Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10

Trinity
    Systems : "Ambulas Assassination Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Ambulas Assassination Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Ambulas Assassination Medal" x5

Valkyr
    Systems : "Alad V Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Alad V Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Alad V Assassination Medal" x10

Wisp
    Systems : "Ropalolyst Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Ropalolyst Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Ropalolyst Assassination Medal" x10
    Main Blueprint : "Ropalolyst Assassination Medal" x10
Xaku
    Systems : "Tier 4 Necralisk Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Tier 5 Necralisk Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Tier 2 Necralisk Bounty Medal" x5

 

Other warframes not listed here already have their parts obtainable via more sure methods, such as quests, Simaris Standing shop and other methods that don't depend on RNG. While most item costs are calculated to require at least 10 complete missions, staying in line with the proposed average of the current dropped chances, some medal costs are adjusted according to the additional efforts required to complete the mission (ex.: Mutalist Alad V Assassination requiring a special key to access, making it more restrictive than other common Assassination missions, therefore its medals being valued higher).

 

100% support adding a token system to the game. Have asked for this before too

I get why RNG exist in warframe, which is to get people to spend money, but there definitely be some sort of point, even an absurd one, that we should be able to reach to get certain items we want. The whole game is built on us getting lucky with rng, so those players who never get lucky become basically locked out of progression in the game which sucks horribly. I remember giving up on ever getting the purple pigment from zanuka in the dojo colors because of the fact that I had tried getting tons of marks and never having the thing spawn for Years. I remember when it finally came for me and I was just like "oh yeah! you exist!".

Like I said, I get why but I don't see it hurting the game adding a sort of progression system. Rather give players more reason to keep playing

[Zoh_Veldae]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

The thing with RJ it's repetitive. For Solo player (me), even more. For me it's just "go to ship" and "go shoot some stuffs outside" repeated few times before I go to any defense/orphix/survi/etc. We probably know that "basic" stuffs already because they are repeated over different type of REAL MISSION (survi, defense etc). And what higher missions adds? Yeah, you guessed it - MORE REPETITION.

As for defense, survi etc - we know them as well. There are Orphix, Volatile and maybe 1 more that are new.

 

x10 attempts are good for something like bosses and first time beating normal (non open world nor RJ) missions (defense, survi etc). What's the difference between lowest level survi and Kuva's survi? Almost 0. There is this Kuva thing... but when I've been farming for Harrow I've just been doing normal Survi. I could just set up my gear to melt high level enemies for hours... but I want to play a little. However you and DE still wants me to play for such long time.

I get what you mean. There truly is little else of difference between high level and low level missions beyond just bigger numbers, but this suggested system is more to introduce a fixed base-line to rewards where there used to be none. Maybe I should have calculated it to require 5 attempts for all items instead of just a few select ones due to mission restrictions, I dunno, but right now this is just the "first draft". If it's ever implemented, there's a lot to test out and calculate to actually perfect it.

[(PSN)S1ckS1deSold1er-]

I totally agree. RNG in Warframe is beyond a joke. It basically makes the game uninteresting. Especially when there is nothing at the end of it but something to use as MR fodder, or to sit in your inventory because you are too bored to do the same tired missions.

I would definitely love to see an effort based system implemented, because my bad luck matched with DE's horrendous RNG rates is not enjoyable. Perhaps even a skill based system too somewhere.

I've heard all kinds of comments from [DE]fenders and they just make me laugh. "It's free-to-play so they want you to waste your time on it so they have the numbers, or for you to not want to farm so they get your Plat that you hopefully buy from them." Well... if a game is pushing players away, which WF is, and it IS (Too many arguments about that with people. Stats in Sep.2020 went up, then down in Oct.2020. So they can't even keep new players who were bored at home during Covid lockdown, on a free-to-play where most people were losing money out of work. On top of that they also drop existing & experienced players) then neither of those options are going to be credible anyway.

I didn't read your whole conversation with RLanzinger but I don't know why they were explaining RNG to you. You know what it is, clearly, and you believe it is out of control in WF. As for the comment they made of Boosters... that's only for stuff not necessarily RNG based. As for Trade... only for Primes. So no logic in either of those statements. And where they said "Make people get polite" I can't see any sense in that. Rude people are going to be rude regardless of RNG. I wanted to Quote their comment but couldn't work it out.

There was a time I enjoyed Warframe, and I would honestly like to again. That is why I comment on threads, or make my own occasional ones sometimes. Because you won't see change if you don't speak up. People don't try or speak up if they don't care (Usually, some want to fight & argue). The sad fact is though I hardly play WF now, and can't see it changing, not enough and not soon, for me to get back into the fold. It will eventually stop being the odd play here & there, and the odd comments to help TRY to change things, to it just being totally dead & forgotten for me.