A way to mitigate the unfairness of RNG in mission drops

[Zoh_Veldae]

TL:DR

In a single sentence:

Adding mission-specific guaranteed token items that can then be exchanged for a drop of that respective mission at the player's choice to reduce the unfairness of RNG and value the player's efforts.

 

As for the unabridged version of this suggestion:

I don't know if this was suggested before or not, but I'll post it here.

The RNG of Warframe is out of control and not fun to play with at all. My suggestion will be based on a certain critically acclaimed MMO about Jobs, Crystals and a free trial up to level 60 that I'm pretty sure I can't name in these forums. They too have a slight issue with RNG but they've developed a way to fix that which I believe could very easily be implemented in Warframe.
I suggest implementing a guaranteed "token item" drop in multiple missions that can be accumulated to then be traded in for the drops of the respective mission at the player's choice.
I'll provide an example: say you're farming the Kela De Thaym Assassination mission to get the blueprints for the Saryn warframe. Currently, you get a guaranteed drop at a part, but which part of the three required will be completely random. Let's assume you go 10 attempts and only have several Neuroptics and Systems but not a single Chassis. Your only choice will be to try again and again to get the part you're missing, which may not even drop for another 10, 20, 100 attempts if you're particularly unlucky.
Clearly, this is not fun.
My suggested solution would be to implement a guaranteed token drop on each attempt. In the example provided, let's call this token a "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal". With this implemented, if the same scenario occurs and after 10 attempts you're still missing a piece to complete the Saryn warframe, you can then exchange 10 of those medals for the specific piece you're missing. You're still putting in the effort to get the warframe, but now it's not just up to RNG whether you actually get what you want or not.
On other mission types besides Assassination this could also be implemented but with a few changes. Let's use an adequate example with the Ivara warframe. Each of her parts has a chance to be acquired by acquiring all 3 intel in the mission, with the specific part rewarded being dependent on the level of the mission, mainly divided into 3 Spy mission ranks. With the suggested guaranteed token system, you would receive a token based on that mission level, specifically a "Bronze Spy Medal" for level 1-15, "Silver Spy Medal" for level 16-25 and "Gold Spy Medal" for level 26+. More variants could be introduced like "Lua Spy Medal" or "Kuva Spy Medal" for the respective Spy mission unique drop tables. With this system, you would be able to acquire the specific drop you want from that mission without having to depend on luck exclusively.

Thank you for your time, I hope this suggestion is understandable

 

:UPDATE:

To better illustrate what I mean, I will leave here a comprehensive listing of what could be traded for what medals and where to get them:

Spoiler

Currently, these numbers pertain only to warframe parts acquisition, but the same medals could be used to acquire other items in the same drop tables. Additionally, excess medals could be sold for credits via the inventory screen or traded universally for common rewards such as Forma Blueprints or Endo.

 

Methods of Acquisition:
    Assassination Medals: 1 medal for each successful mission
    Defense Medals: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Survival Medals: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Spy Medals: 1 medal for each mission complete with 3 intel collected (regardless of "undetected" feat achieved or not)
    Sanctuary Onslaught Medal: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Bounty Medals: 1 medal per complete bounty (regardless if bonus objectives are complete or not)
    Disruption Medals: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Void Fissure/Void Storm Medals: 1 medal per relic opened
    Infested Salvage Medals: 1 medal with Rotation A reward, 2 medals with Rotation B reward, 4 medals with Rotation C reward
    Cache Finder Medals: 1 medal per cache discovered
    Empyrean Medal: 1 medal for every successful mission with all objectives complete (including optional objectives)
    Granum Void Medal: 1 medal for every granum Void expedition with 100% kills required

 

Ash:
    Systems : "Venus Proxima Defense Medal" x80 OR "Venus Proxima Survival Medal" x80
    Chassis : "Pluto Proxima Defense Medal" x80 OR "Pluto Proxima Survival Medal" x80
    Neuroptics : "Neptune Proxima Defense Medal" x80 OR "Neptune Proxima Survival Medal" x80

Atlas:
    Systems : "Jordas Golem Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Jordas Golem Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Jordas Golem Assassination Medal" x10

Caliban:
    Systems : "Narmer Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Narmer Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Narmer Bounty Medal" x5

Ember:
    Systems : "General Sargas Ruk Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "General Sargas Ruk Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "General Sargas Ruk Assassination Medal" x10

Equinox:
    Day Systems : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Day Chassis : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Day Neuroptics : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Day Aspect : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Night Systems : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Night Chassis : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Night Neuroptics : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5
    Night Aspect : "Tyl Regor Assassination Medal" x5

Excalibur:
    Systems : "Lieutenant Lech Kril Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Lieutenant Lech Kril Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Lieutenant Lech Kril Assassination Medal" x10

Frost:
    Systems : "Lieutenant & Captain Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Lieutenant & Captain Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Lieutenant & Captain Assassination Medal" x10

Gara:
    Systems : "Tier 2 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Tier 1 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Tier 3 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5

Garuda:
    Systems : "Tier 2 Fortuna Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Tier 1 Fortuna Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Tier 3 Fortuna Bounty Medal" x5

Gauss:
    Systems : "Disruption Gold Medal" x80
    Chassis : "Disruption Gold Medal" x80
    Neuroptics : "Disruption Gold Medal" x80
Harrow:
    Systems : "Defection Bronze Medal" x40 OR "Defection Silver Medal" x40 OR "Defection Gold Medal" x40 OR "Kuva Survival Medal" x80
    Chassis : "Void Fissure Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Kuva Spy Medal" x10 OR "Kuva Survival Medal" x80

Hildryn
    Systems : "Exploiter Orb Assassination Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Exploiter Orb Assassination Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Exploiter Orb Assassination Medal" x5

Hydroid
    Systems : "Councilor Vay Hek Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Councilor Vay Hek Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Councilor Vay Hek Assassination Medal" x10

Ivara
    Systems : "Spy Bronze Medal" x10 OR "Venus Proxima Spy Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Spy Silver Medal" x10 OR "Lua Spy Medal" x10 OR "Neptune Proxima Spy Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Spy Gold Medal" x10 OR "Pluto Proxima Spy Medal" x10
    Main Blueprint: "Spy Gold Medal" x10 OR "Veil Proxima Spy Medal" x10

Khora
    Systems : "Sanctuary Onslaught Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Sanctuary Onslaught Medal" x40
    Neuroptics : "Sanctuary Onslaught Medal" x20
    Main Blueprint: "Sanctuary Onslaught Medal" x10

Loki
    Systems : "Hyena Pack Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Hyena Pack Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Hyena Pack Assassination Medal" x10

Mag
    Systems : "Sergeant Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Sergeant Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Sergeant Assassination Medal" x10

Mesa
    Systems : "Mutalist Alad V Assassination Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Mutalist Alad V Assassination Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Mutalist Alad V Assassination Medal" x5

Nekros
    Systems : "Lephantis Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Lephantis Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Lephantis Assassination Medal" x10

Nidus
    Systems : "Infested Salvage Medal" x80
    Chassis : "Infested Salvage Medal" x80
    Neuroptics : "Infested Salvage Medal" x80

Nova
    Systems : "Raptor Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Raptor Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Raptor Assassination Medal" x10

Nyx
    Systems : "Phorid Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Phorid Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Phorid Assassination Medal" x10

Oberon
    Systems : "Earth Proxima Empyrean Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Saturn Proxima Empyrean Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Veil Proxima Empyrean Medal" x10

Octavia
    Systems : "Lua Cache Finder Medal" x5
    Chassis : (Not Applicable)
    Neuroptics : "Deimos Survival Medal" x80

Protea
    Systems : "Granum Void Gold Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Granum Void Silver Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Granum Void Bronze Medal" x5

Revenant
    Systems : "Tier 3 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Tier 4 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Tier 5 Cetus Bounty Medal" x5

Rhino
    Systems : "Jackal Assassination Medal x10
    Chassis : "Jackal Assassination Medal x10
    Neuroptics : "Jackal Assassination Medal x10

Saryn
    Systems : "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal" x10

Sevagoth
    Systems : "Neptune Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Pluto Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Veil Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Neptune Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Pluto Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Veil Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Neptune Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Pluto Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10 OR "Veil Proxima Void Storm Medal" x10

Trinity
    Systems : "Ambulas Assassination Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Ambulas Assassination Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Ambulas Assassination Medal" x5

Valkyr
    Systems : "Alad V Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Alad V Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Alad V Assassination Medal" x10

Wisp
    Systems : "Ropalolyst Assassination Medal" x10
    Chassis : "Ropalolyst Assassination Medal" x10
    Neuroptics : "Ropalolyst Assassination Medal" x10
    Main Blueprint : "Ropalolyst Assassination Medal" x10
Xaku
    Systems : "Tier 4 Necralisk Bounty Medal" x5
    Chassis : "Tier 5 Necralisk Bounty Medal" x5
    Neuroptics : "Tier 2 Necralisk Bounty Medal" x5

 

Other warframes not listed here already have their parts obtainable via more sure methods, such as quests, Simaris Standing shop and other methods that don't depend on RNG. While most item costs are calculated to require at least 10 complete missions, staying in line with the proposed average of the current dropped chances, some medal costs are adjusted according to the additional efforts required to complete the mission (ex.: Mutalist Alad V Assassination requiring a special key to access, making it more restrictive than other common Assassination missions, therefore its medals being valued higher).

 

[RLanzinger]

Hello Tenno Zoh_Veldae,

 

First, Let's me thak you for the good joke of "unfairness of RNG" ...

1. The VERY PRINCIPLE of RandomNumberGenerator is that IT IS RANDOM, non dependant of anything THUS FAIR !
2. Random mean in statistic "Governed by or involving equal chances for each item." (the item/sample here it's YOU)

 

Second "I don't know if this was suggested before or not, but I'll post it here."

1. IT WAS suggested ... HUNDREDS OF TIMES since this forums exist !
2. I'm against it 'cause : it won't be fun, it won't help team's play and won't help people getting polite ....

 

If you want to change it, Tons of method already exist : BOOSTERS > TRADE > PLATINIUM

• BOOSTERS need to go to relay and politely ask for a blessing.
• TRADE need to go to a dojo/chat and politely ask for a trade.
• PLATINIUM need to go to the MArket and politely clic on a button

 

My Solution is the HARDEST : BE POLITE (definition is : Having or showing behaviour that is respectful and considerate of other people.)

 

Good luck 👍 and have nice day, 🤗

[Zoh_Veldae]

58 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

 

Greetings Tenno RLanzinger

By your response, I assume you believe my suggestion to somehow be impolite.

Please explain your reasoning.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

2 hours ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

My suggested solution would be to implement a guaranteed token drop on each attempt. In the example provided, let's call this token a "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal". With this implemented, if the same scenario occurs and after 10 attempts you're still missing a piece to complete the Saryn warframe, you can then exchange 10 of those medals for the specific piece you're missing. You're still putting in the effort to get the warframe, but now it's not just up to RNG whether you actually get what you want or not.
On other mission types besides Assassination this could also be implemented but with a few changes. Let's use an adequate example with the Ivara warframe. Each of her parts has a chance to be acquired by acquiring all 3 intel in the mission, with the specific part rewarded being dependent on the level of the mission, mainly divided into 3 Spy mission ranks. With the suggested guaranteed token system, you would receive a token based on that mission level, specifically a "Bronze Spy Medal" for level 1-15, "Silver Spy Medal" for level 16-25 and "Gold Spy Medal" for level 26+. More variants could be introduced like "Lua Spy Medal" or "Kuva Spy Medal" for the respective Spy mission unique drop tables. With this system, you would be able to acquire the specific drop you want from that mission without having to depend on luck exclusively.

Thank you for your time, I hope this suggestion is understandable

It's a great idea considering so many things in this game are untradeable. It's for this reason that getting Vaulted Prime Warframes is easier than getting the Vanilla variant. This wasn't much of an issue since the Prime is simply better and can use the Vanilla skin, but with the introduction of Helminth, this changes. Of course, someone else would argue that bad grinds is DE's way of coaxing people to buy Vanilla frames directly from them for Plat or inflate player retention. 

DE already introduced a similar concepts for other parts of the game in Vitus Essence, Steel Essence, Aya and Ducats.

[Xaelroa]

1 minute ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

It's a great idea considering so many things in this game are untradeable. It's for this reason that getting Vaulted Prime Warframes is easier than getting the Vanilla variant. This wasn't much of an issue since the Prime is simply better and can use the Vanilla skin, but with the introduction of Helminth, this changes. Of course, someone else would argue that bad grinds is DE's way of coaxing people to buy Vanilla frames directly from them for Plat or inflate player retention. 

DE already introduced a similar concepts for other parts of the game in Vitus Essence, Steel Essence, Aya and Ducats.

And yet they keep doubling down on the grinds while constantly promising ever since plains released "we don't like excessive grinds either so we're going to reduce the grinds!"

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 minute ago, Xaelroa said:

And yet they keep doubling down on the grinds while constantly promising ever since plains released "we don't like excessive grinds either so we're going to reduce the grinds!"

Excessive grinds is what DE resorts to in order to meet retention metrics because they can't release content fast enough or cannot create content that is replayable by its own merits. 

The newest grinds are always the grindiest to get returning players to play an extra week than they would have otherwise. Of course, DE will nerf the grinds later of older content so returning players can get up to speed (Railjack, AMPS). 

Other F2P games and Mobile Games usually feature a stamina system that time gates player progression and Warframe has that in the form of Syndicate Standing. 

Of course, Warframe also time gates with build times and low drop rates. 

IMO.

Wait Times >>>>>>>>>>>Low Drop Rates

DE has to remember their target demographic are mostly adults 20-30 years of age and most of them cannot no-life through low drop rates.

[RLanzinger]

Greeting too Zoh_Veldae,

 

First of all, The core problem is why do people do not like RNG ? : Mainly because of incertitude and because they ONLY remember the BAD event, not the easy or simple one; but OUR memories is really NOT FAIR. An example, auto-quote of myself, is better than any theorem :

"I'm a supreme FAN of FROST, when the first Frost Prime was out, I tried as much to get him but the last blueprint refuse to drop (it was a 4,9%) and when Frost prime was vaulted I collected around a hundreds of relics ... I took me 2 YEARS n' more than 280 RADIANTS RELICS to get the blueprint at my 2 very last missions 😭. "

• How the RNG of getting one after 280 failed ? Less than 1 per 1,2 Millions
• Could I get what miss me ? YES by trading because I gather all others part the FIRST WEEK it was release, I could be done in 5min...
• Why did I not do that ? Mainly because I'm obsessionnal to get thing by MYSELF... it's AN EGO PROBLEM.

 

Secondly, Why the token method won't work ? You will have to fix a trade rate in a open market  which mathematically will be the same thing as the drop rate ration of the event THUS rendering it obsolete :

• A better rate will KILL Trading between players.
• A worst rate will KILL Trading the open market.

It will only help some rares players like myself who has bad luck from times to times... a very limited usefullness. This method in itself will not work, your idea and the subsequent mecanics is not enough polish. It's hundred years far from a good proposition. Just a trade for another token to GRIND...

 

Thirdly, Some players like DealerOfAbsolutes will complain about but still will play the game hundreds and hundreds of hours. And I'm pretty sure the method is not for yourself Zoh_Veldae, because your are in the thousands hours of play; VERY FAR from needed any ressources nor FirePower, you can probably SOLO any boss in less than 5-10min : which mean you can eradicate them twenty times per hour at minima.
So what are we discuting here ? A way to have a better QoL for new player or a way for older one to fast pass ?

Let's have a futuristic vision : What will happen If your method is to be implement ?

• Will me and my 54 DREAD BLUEPRINT able to get the last scimitar par I need...
• Will me and my MILLIONDS OF RESSOURCES will get any new ressources without having to play at all
• Will me and My hundreds of deimos arcanes be able to get any new arcanes as soon as it get outs ?
• Will me and My 78.000 rk0 MODS be able to buy any new mods for years without any effort ?

WILL ALL OF THESE BE FAIR with New Player ???

...NO

 

Basically, the reason to do something does not always justify the method ! your method was not enought develloped, you had NOT think about all it's consequencse on any/all of the Gameplay thus I was against because it's not the first time this bad idea came out.

 

WHAT TO DO ? (And I'll gladly help you)

I'm always perfectly agree to less grind, more fun BUT not like this !

Find another method that :

• does not kill trade between players,
• ....that does not render boosters/blessing useless
• .... and that does not only help Old player and let the new ones on th road side.

 

WHAT HAVE BEEN DONE ALREADY ?

Players asked for less Grind in RailJack, it was justified, supported by players (me too) and implement.

Players asked for less Grind for low level content, it was justified, supported by players (me too) and implement.

Players asked for supression of some market items like repair drones, it was justified, supported by players (me too) and implement.

 

Hope this can help you understand my first post,

Good Luck polishing a new concept and have a nice day, 😇

[quxier]

2 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

 

First, Let's me thak you for the good joke of "unfairness of RNG" ...

1. The VERY PRINCIPLE of RandomNumberGenerator is that IT IS RANDOM, non dependant of anything THUS FAIR !
2. Random mean in statistic "Governed by or involving equal chances for each item." (the item/sample here it's YOU)

In reality it's called PRNG. P in PRNG means pseudo. In general PRNGs depends on some kind of formula that output some numbers. Depending on PRNG it can have some issues like some parts are repeated more frequently.

I love how statisticians jokes about some randomness being fair but... requiring you to take like 100 or more tests.

46 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Secondly, Why the token method won't work ? You will have to fix a trade rate in a open market  which mathematically will be the same thing as the drop rate ration of the event THUS rendering it obsolete :

• A better rate will KILL Trading between players.
• A worst rate will KILL Trading the open market.

It will only help some rares players like myself who has bad luck from times to times... a very limited usefullness. This method in itself will not work, your idea and the subsequent mecanics is not enough polish. It's hundred years far from a good proposition. Just a trade for another token to GRIND...

Is killing some part of market (DE's & players') bad? I mean I sell & buy some stuffs as well but some prices are ridiculous. 1 Arcane Energize costs 55+ on the market and ~1300 for rank 5.

And me getting 3 from 4 parts and going for hours for certain mission is ok? Or just pay for whole frame because I couldn't get single part?

59 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

An I'm pretty sure the method is not for yourself Zoh_Veldae, because your are in the thousands hours of play; VERY FAR from needed any ressources nor FirePower, you can probably SOLO any boss in less than 5-10min : which mean you can eradicat ethem twenty times per hour at minima.

I guess you have played the newest quest to fit 20 tries in 60 minutes while saying each try lasts at least 5 minutes.

Joking aside thousands of hours doesn't means too much. And some bosses have hp (or another kind of) sponge.

1 hour ago, RLanzinger said:

Let's have a futuristic vision : What will happen If your method is to be implement ?

• Will me and my 54 DREAD BLUEPRINT able to get the last scimitar par I need...
• Will me and my MILLIONDS OF RESSOURCES will get any new ressources without having to play at all
• Will me and My hundreds of deimos arcanes be able to get any new arcanes as soon as it get outs ?
• Will me and My 78.000 rk0 MODS be able to buy any new mods for years without any effort ?

WILL ALL OF THESE BE FAIR with New Player ???

Not everything is "fair". Fairness is not always good/fun. Putting same effort into something and getting very different results (e.g. drop on 1st - 5th vs 100th try) is not fun.

What OP suggesting needs some work but it's good idea. We have Orphix event with similar idea. It was good.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

4 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

The VERY PRINCIPLE of RandomNumberGenerator is that IT IS RANDOM, non dependant of anything THUS FAIR !

Rng is not fair at all. "Fairness" would be, equal effort for equal reward. Rng guarantees the rewards are NOT fair.

6 hours ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

Adding mission-specific guaranteed token items that can then be exchanged for a drop of that respective mission at the player's choice to reduce the unfairness of RNG and value the player's efforts.

As for OP, yes it's a great idea for things which cannot be traded, e.g. as mentioned, for things like non-prime parts.

It doesn't even have to be a token system specifically, just some way to swap the "failures" for a "success". For example, an NPC where I could trade 10 Saryn chassis blueprints for 1 Saryn system blueprint.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

26 minutes ago, (PSN)iuvenilis said:

It doesn't even have to be a token system specifically, just some way to swap the "failures" for a "success". For example, an NPC where I could trade 10 Saryn chassis blueprints for 1 Saryn system blueprint.

I'm surprised DE hasn't implemented something like this earlier to recycle redundant drops for something other than paltry credits. They already got Ducats, Aya, Steel and Vitus Essence.

Darvo Rework.

Darvo could offer Darvo Crowns for Warframe and Weapon parts. These could be exchanged for some Warframe parts, mandatory mods and etc to smooth out the New Player experience. As it stands, who even buys Darvo Deals?

[Zoh_Veldae]

2 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

 

Greetings again Tenno RLanzinger

I am not even going to attempt to humor you any further than this because your previous posts were painfully nonsensical.

Not just due to the grammatical mistakes and colored text that serves no purpose other than to distract the reader from what I assume is a stroke in text form, but due to how practically every point that I somehow managed to painfully decipher from your posts is completely illogical.

As I stated in the original post, there IS precedent to the system I suggested already functioning without the cataclysmic detriments to player economy you attempted to associate it with. Not just in other games, but also in Warframe itself. Arbitrations shop using Vitus Essence is more or less what I described, albeit still with a few details that could be improved upon such as a more constant Essence payout and a more complete shop stock.

Vast majority of the items that I suggested this system to be implemented for are already untradeable between players, so it won't impact trade as much as you seem to believe.

Boosters also don't function with end of mission/round rewards, which is what this system would affect.

Paying a premium currency for something with influence on gameplay when you can actually put in the effort and skill to acquire is not something many people will agree to being a *fair* system, and although I can see how it would be a valid option for those with more money than patience, it's still not very enjoyable for everyone else.

You also make the unfair assumption that just because I have a substantial amount of playtime and equipment in the game that I am incapable of feeling frustrated at my efforts not being properly rewarded like any other player would, regardless of their skill or playtime. It's one thing to have patience, but it's a completely different story to constantly being met with failure to achieve your goals through no fault of your own.

 

To conclude, please attempt to read and understand what it is I'm suggesting and why I'm doing so. And please divert some of the time and effort you spend on decorating your posts into actually proof-reading them and making them more understandable.

It's simply a polite thing to do.

[(PSN)Butch3r_kush]

My big problem with rng is if an item have a drop rate of 4.9%, technically in 100 attempt, i should get the item at least 4-5 time but when it take more than 100 attempt to just get 1 item then to me its not a 4.9% chance to get the item...its becoming pure BS and is a lottery ticket(plus, you bust your ass off for it ffs.). For me the rng should be something that you will eventually get in 100 attempt. A less than 1% chance or lower is a ripoff that SHOULD BE AVOIDED AT ALL COST.

 

Platinum is very hard to get when you aren't that rich item wise(and/or IRL). Then you try to sell your crap item and for 5+ hours still no trade at all, its very time consuming of not playing the game(no gameplay, no fun, no advancement, ect.). In some cases, you have to farm ALL the part of a warframe/weapons to be sellable or else your item worth half of a plat even those item who's worth 100 Ducats. During all that time, you can try to get the item and...you know, actually having fun farming for your items. Trade steal a part of the fun of the game in a certain way but its a necessary evil to avoid BS rng.

I paid for my mesa primed because i wanted it very badly(i wanted her for the second dream quest line) and to avoid the blueprint farm and even though i have bought the blueprints from a player i've had to farm for rest of the ressources to get it(i was ok about this farm). Since my hard earn money is going to the community; i was MORE than ok to buy from another player. 

To me, going to a relay is just good to go at the Maroo bazaar/Strata relay for weekly event, otherwise its a waste of time trying to sell item at those places.

Baroo kit'teer is worst since there is no refresh option when he's there(even 1 refresh could be okayish). I only have a primed flow, the only primed mods i could get my hands on atm. 

Darvo deals are plat ripoff, he's should sell primed part at the very least to be worth dealing with in the first place.

 

Just my cents.

[Grommile]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Butch3r_kush said:

Darvo deals are plat ripoff, he's should sell primed part at the very least to be worth dealing with in the first place.

Darvo deals are better than the official DE list price of the items he offers.

There's a conversation to be had about those list prices, of course, but whichever way you slice it, it's less of a ripoff than the standard in-game store.

 

[(PSN)Butch3r_kush]

Well, why pay plat for a NORMAL gun, when you can pay for 9 blueprints after a round of index, a bit of ressources and a bit of patience, then?

[RLanzinger]

 Oh, lot of replies...

 

First shot is by quxier, really you shouldn't had to be so gentle 😇. Let's order the counter/answer

1. about RNG, it's pseudo because no computer can generate pure randomness unless you correct the weight probability of each number with their frequencies. Thus attaining a true Randomness. But this need to define and stocks all your RNG results : it's overcomplicated.
2. The market ... yeah I agree that Platinium economy is not my idea of a trade. Personnaly I refuse platinium in Trade, My politics ! I prefer give a vaulted prime part, 2 rares rivens and Some rares mods VS a vitality rk0 Than accept  even 1 plat. When I said TRADE ... I mean wtt, a basic Trade without any Plat. As I said I Agree.
3. About Fairness... yeah, I agree with you too. But I don't what Iuv said " "Fairness" would be, equal effort for equal reward. " because what effort mean ? Only the time of play, the quality of your play ? Like in some PVP where you are rewarded with only KILLS ... a excellent player leveling up faster than a ultra-low-skill player like me is it fair ? Being lucky is it fair ? a damn hard question

Second shot DealerOfAbsolutes, I must said you got me at Darvo Crowns 👍. Love the name but the concept need to be polish !!! Like quxier said "What OP suggesting needs some work but it's good idea. We have Orphix event with similar idea. It was good."

Third and last Zoh_Veldae, Before anything I must thank you for not full quoting my post (It is a rare attention, I thanks people when they do 🙏)

• About the mispelling : I'm french, tired and when I re-read my self I did not find strenght to correct it. I did a bit "divert some of the time" but I'm already bad in my own language, hope there is not too much left.
• About the colors : Texting does not carry voice intonation, nor what I found interresting. So When I see a big mass of letters, my mind said : 😱. But I really appreciate that you did not make a one paragraph HEAVY BLOCK of text : I really appreciate this. Inbetween : We play warframe... the most colored game ever, I cannot text in B&W ... really, I can't 😝
• About frustration : At the opposite of what you said "that I am incapable of feeling frustrated at my efforts not being properly rewarded like any other player would,", I think lot of players have too much frustation. Like I said, we remember more the bad part than the whole. A bit like the "Survivorship bias" ... if your selection of what happen is wrong/bias, the conclusion cannot be right !

About your concept and why I don't accept it and still agree with quxier...

• If we follow the "Kela De Thaym Assassination Medal" exemple, we will have ONE TOKEN per warframe... with 48 Warframe, it's a way tons of token collections we got here. I don't wish to debate more about the problem but it's *in the actual state* a worst solution.
• Using an universal token like what DealerOfAbsolutes, suggest feel fun but is a worst implementation because you will have to take in account the NEW PLAYER experience and all his starchart/MR/Quest accessibility to determine what can be exchange, what cannot.
• As quxier, recall : The Orphix's mecanic was a very good one ! A good example to follow ...

Generaly speaking, lot of ideas are good but you need to come and post a FULLY explain and detaillled solution of what you mean. Not only a "I got an good idea, can you Implement this by doing all the details jobs, pretty please ?". It is the same as Creating a new Warframe : a 10 minutes croquis and a dozen words won't just be enough for it to be implement or even attract the attention of the devellopers...

What you need Zoh_Veldae, is to Create a post with each warframe case by case to understand fully what your idea mean. If you can do it for at least the original's ones that are tied to a BOSS, it will be great... I don't want to tell you STOP HERE : but more a Break a leg! and DO BETTER. (but not my le please 😝)

 

Good luck 👍 and have nice day, 🤗

PS : will reread later, its' diner time

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

24 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

 Oh, lot of replies...

Please stop. If you don't have any CONSTRUCTIVE feedback, if you don't have any intention of trying to help improve the idea, just move on. You're not helping even one tiny bit. If you don't like the idea, either try help improve it, or simply ignore the topic and move on. You're basically trolling at this point.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

27 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Generaly speaking, lot of ideas are good but you need to come and post a FULLY explain and detaillled solution of what you mean

(Couldn't add this to my reply)

No we don't. We not game developers. That's not our job, that's DE's job.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, RLanzinger said:

About Fairness... yeah, I agree with you too. But I don't what Iuv said " "Fairness" would be, equal effort for equal reward. " because what effort mean ? Only the time of play, the quality of your play ? Like in some PVP where you are rewarded with only KILLS ... a excellent player leveling up faster than a ultra-low-skill player like me is it fair ? Being lucky is it fair ? a damn hard question

I don't think effort is right word to use. But what they meant by:

Quote

Fairness" would be, equal effort for equal reward

is that achieving in game goals like killing bosses means same reward. For example any player that kills Lephantis get Nyx Neuroptic for the first time.

"Effort" is not good word to use because we are not born equal. There are situations, health issues etc that affects our performance hence our "effort" is bigger or smaller. Should you just get whole frame instead of 1 part just because you don't have 1 finger? Nope. Or should you get 1 part every 2 runs just because you are using better machine? Nope.

 

Sure, you can take into account effort to increase rewards but that's up to DE, I guess.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, RLanzinger said:

about RNG, it's pseudo because no computer can generate pure randomness unless you correct the weight probability of each number with their frequencies. Thus attaining a true Randomness. But this need to define and stocks all your RNG results : it's overcomplicated.

It won't be true randomness. It would be still some formula & some data calculated from another formula.

Achieving true randomness is simple but not worth the effort in those cases. And there can be errors while reading or converting data.

True randomness can be achieved by simply reading user interaction:

- clock time

- mouse position

 

[RLanzinger]

Oh dear quxier "True randomness can be achieved by simply reading user interaction:"  "clock time" and "mouse position"... is NOT TRUE. Clock time WAS already use an give poor since 90' and not random result and mouse position neither because it follow the poisson's distribution because your mouse is mainly centrered in your screen (and more in a FPS/TPS game). 🤓

I you want true Random, here's a thread-constructive way :

1. Choose you range of number 1 to 6 : Number array {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6}
2. Assign probability to each one P1 = 1 ... P2 = 1. Data Array {1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1}
3. Each time you generate a number, rise it's Data array factor ie if RNG (1 to 6) = 5 then {1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1}
4. ...
5. After some time the data array will be like this {1, 5, 12, 24, 20, 7}
6. The trick is to divise the probability by the number of iterations which get you a stats arrays {65,9%, 13,2%, 5,5%, 2,7%, 3,3%, 9,4%}

This way, the more one number is obtaint, the less is probability will be the next time. We can achieve true random with a pseudo-random generator 🤯

And I hear well "We not game developers.". BUT this level of math is what any highschooler know about statistics and angry against RNG player know what a statistics mean...

 

As (PSN)iuvenilis very well said let's be MORE constructive HOW TO BE CONSTRUCTIVE : 🧐

Imagine not having number but NEKROS WARFRAME PART, -mainly because I know a guy who did 80+ runs to get his, I only need a bit less than 20.... -:

• Part arrays will be { Chassis Blueprint, Neuroptics Blueprint, Systems Blueprint)
• Data array at start will be {1, 1, 1} equal probability
• Stats array at start will be {33,3%, 33,3%, 33,3%}
• ...after some missions, the number of blueprint you own will be lie 4 chassis, 12 neuro but still 0 system
• Data array will be change accordingly {1+4, 1+12, 1+0}
• Stats array will become will be {15,7%, 6,0%, 78,3%} -hey Zoh_Veldae, colors are usefull, aren't they ?

This way is FAR more elegant and easy to implement than an army of tokens...It is base one the numbers of blueprint you have in stocks, no market, no extra-extra token.

The only problem, each player will have a different drop...🙄

 

Can someone be more constructive than that ??? 🤪

[timedieaway]

I dont think RNG is the most important element in this game,but pleasure and happiness.Some resources have already been collected with a big number,but others seem to disappear with great efforts.Some funny jokers think trade and platinum are keys to solve anything,but how to get something can't be traded or bought in market.Although  we respect the rules,trading our game account seem to be a more efficient way.I don't encourage to use similar methods,but i also don't agree with some jokers.

[quxier]

9 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

Oh dear quxier "True randomness can be achieved by simply reading user interaction:"  "clock time" and "mouse position"... is NOT TRUE. Clock time WAS already use an give poor since 90' and not random result and mouse position neither because it follow the poisson's distribution because your mouse is mainly centrered in your screen (and more in a FPS/TPS game). 🤓

That's why I said that there could be errors.

Although about mouse position it's interesting info I haven't considered. Thank you for this.

9 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

1.  

This way, the more one number is obtaint, the less is probability will be the next time. We can achieve true random with a pseudo-random generator 🤯

The thing you described (I don't fully get it but that's for later) is step by step instructions hence not truly random. If given enough power/memory I can reproduce your results. Randomness means unpredictable. Given any number of numbers from random input I CANNOT GUESS NEXT ONE. Pseudo RNGs just emulates it. They make them "good enough". For example for generators that generate numbers from 1 to 5 you may make e.g. knowing 30 numbers would let you know 31+. On other hand some cryptographic PRNGs would require much more numbers to guess next numbers. So you either have found a bug or have expensive machine to calculate next numbers, hence appears to be unpredictable.

10 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

• Choose you range of number 1 to 6 : Number array {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6}
• Assign probability to each one P1 = 1 ... P2 = 1. Data Array {1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1}
• Each time you generate a number, rise it's Data array factor ie if RNG (1 to 6) = 5 then {1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1}
• ...
• After some time the data array will be like this {1, 5, 12, 24, 20, 7}
• The trick is to divise the probability by the number of iterations which get you a stats arrays {65,9%, 13,2%, 5,5%, 2,7%, 3,3%, 9,4%}

10 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

• Part arrays will be { Chassis Blueprint, Neuroptics Blueprint, Systems Blueprint)
• Data array at start will be {1, 1, 1} equal probability
• Stats array at start will be {33,3%, 33,3%, 33,3%}
• ...after some missions, the number of blueprint you own will be lie 4 chassis, 12 neuro but still 0 system
• Data array will be change accordingly {1+4, 1+12, 1+0}
• Stats array will become will be {15,7%, 6,0%, 78,3%} -hey Zoh_Veldae, colors are usefull, aren't they ?

What you are describing seems to be something like WoW/Warcraft 3 method:

Quote

So what we decided to do was we took a page out of Warcraft 3, which had a very elegant design which they referred to as 'progressive percentages.' ...In Lich King, every creature that is part of the collection quest has the item 100% of the time, but we do a progressive system where we up the chance the player [gets the item] each time he kills it.

However I don't get how you get those numbers.

Let's take 15.7%. We have 16 runs (4 runs yielded Chassis, 12 Neuro). So:

- 100% / 16 = 6.25%

- 33% / 16 = 2.08125%

None equals 15.7% (even close enough). Am I missing something?

However this method doesn't guarantee drop till some huge percentages. It has constant ratio of % growth. It's not very elegant. You can introduce some variable but that's has problems you have described.

 

[RLanzinger]

ohoho quxier,

I was never interestining in WOW but this "What you are describing seems to be something like WoW/Warcraft 3 method: " is truly EVIL. More the reason why I don't like this game mechanics. But No, the method I propose is way opposite of that.

What "Andrew Pyzdek" said is basically : "The drop rate was change from 35% to ...

1. 28% after 0 fail attempt to get the item
2. 52% after 1 fail attempt to get the item
3. 75% after 2 fail attempt to get the item
4. 100% after 3 fail attempt to get the item "

And this is a pretty meanie way to force luck... and I thanks you for this infos.

Did I say, I was not a very bad but awfully bad with pedagogy as a teacher ?

What my  this method for ? Usually any pRNG is not fair : example with my excel test a RNG for 1 to 6 a thousand times (a Dice of 6 basically):

Numbers	iterations
1	128
2	166
3	163
4	168
5	182
6	190

A thousand sample is low but you can still the same thing with higher number, this why we called it PSEUDO rng, it's never perfectly random... What I propose will not force the numbers to be perfectly fair every 10-20 times but will slowly lessen the difference by using weighted variables.

 

About the way I obtain the number, when I said "divise the probability by the number of iterations" it not very clear an elegant (my fault). A little excel will be better than explaining the formula for most. And you can reproduce it easily...

	Data	Items	Data'	Stats
			Data / (1+items)	Data' / sum of Data'
Chassis Blueprint	1,00	4	0,2	15,7%
Neuroptics Blueprint	1,00	12	0,076923077	6,0%
Systems Blueprint	1,00	0	1	78,3%
Sum			1,276923077	100,0%

 

Now Let's change the Data by the ORIGINAL Drop tables percentiles of 33,333%; the numbers in stats column will be ... the same.

Now Let's change the Data by KHORA drops, and some corrections (by adding a cross multiplication) :

	Data	Items	Data'	Stats
			Data / (1+items)	Data' * (sum of Data / sum of Data')
Chassis Blueprint	8,33%	4	0,01666	3,45%
Neuroptics Blueprint	9,09%	12	0,006992308	1,45%
Systems Blueprint	11,28%	1	0,0564	11,69%
Main Blueprint	11,28%	0	0,1128	23,38%
Sum	39,98%		0,192852308	39,98%

 

Do you see the difference now and the value for getting a Khora Main blueprint ? it is not as FLAWED as wow's method, but by this it mitigate the Pseudo RNG by forcing it to be a better RNG.

Lets try this on a absurd level ... with 120 RUNS and 0 Khora Systems Blueprint

	Data	Items	Data'	Stats
			Data / (1+items)	Data' * (sum of Data / sum of Data')
Chassis Blueprint	8,33%	20	0,003966667	1,31%
Neuroptics Blueprint	9,09%	30	0,002932258	0,97%
Systems Blueprint	11,28%	0	0,1128	37,18%
Main Blueprint	11,28%	70	0,001588732	0,52%
Sum	39,98%		0,121287657	39,98%

 

You still don't have a 100% chance like in wow to get it but a way better ... and more over, you can reset yourself the correctives stats by selling the Blueprint.

 

Hope this will help you understanding these tricky maths. (tricky by my own fault 🙄)

[Zoh_Veldae]

Updated original post for better understanding.

[RLanzinger]

Just Roaming around when... Oh an post udpated. and Very well done.

I don't have time to comment but :

1. VERY GOOD JOB for the full details 👍👍👍 (this deserve a +1 Like)
2. Updating the original post is a good thing, thks for "easying" the read. 👍
3. The "excess medals could be sold for credits" could really help new players, best side idea ! Really love this one

Now clearly I understand a lot more what you Imagine, I'm not 100% for it but as it made me remember the almost forgetten and ignored "Challenges" like "Savior of Neptune". My instinct tell me it is good start.

I'll come back later for more details.

 

Zoh_Veldae, This is very good job indeed 😉, yo quxier what da ya think ?