Exilus Bullet Jump Mods Should be Separated

[Andele3025]

12 minutes ago, Twin_Fawn said:

I'm sort of confused. I pointed out that we already have a utility mod slot like the OP is asking for, which offers mods like "run faster, see farther, etc", but that the issue is that there are utility mods that simply dominate that slot.

What do you feel is extremely incorrect about that? ^^;

The quoted bit, that knockdown resist "isnt exilus level of functionality" when it was literally the 5th mod by DE stated to define exilus slot.

[cute_moth.npc]

15 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

The quoted bit, that knockdown resist "isnt exilus level of functionality" when it was literally the 5th mod by DE stated to define exilus slot.

PSF sort of isn't "exilus" level anymore.

Natural Talent is not considered an exilus mod because casting faster can increase DPS. 

Primed Sure Footed allows for an increase in DPS as well when the user can repeatedly fire at things that are normally too close to them without slowing their fire rate due to being knocked down, allowing the mod to be used offensively.

It is still an exilus mod, but because of the changes to self damage now allows the mod a huge offensive potential as well. That is not an exilus level of functionality.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

The quoted bit, that knockdown resist "isnt exilus level of functionality" when it was literally the 5th mod by DE stated to define exilus slot.

Correct obviously.  But it's almost a different game since then.  At least in the way it's played.

First, DE introduced Primed Sure Footed, taking the resistance to 100%.  Obviously taking something from partial resistance to infinite resistance can be problematic.  But at the time, it wasn't obvious.  There were a lot of people saying the mod was useful, but not that great for a milestone reward, and that Handspring was still more cost effective.

Then they introduced weapon exilus, which allowed an extra slot for ammo mutation mods.  This would become significant later...

Then they changed AoE self damage to the self stagger system, radically increasing the use cases for stagger immunity.  And at the same time, they increased AoE blast radius by  20%

Then they introduced the primed radius mods.  Enormous effect on range, on effectiveness, and on the appeal of self stagger immunity.

And all of this in the context of new ways to make these weapons more spammable, and players rediscovering the old ways.  And the introduction of Steel Path with its higher enemy counts.  In practice, PSF is a force multiplier for builds without stagger immunity.  It's conditional, but the scale is enormous.

DE's 2015 list of exilus mods will remain forever the same, but Warframe itself can't, won't, and hasn't.

 

[Andele3025]

4 hours ago, Twin_Fawn said:

PSF sort of isn't "exilus" level anymore.

Natural Talent is not considered an exilus mod because casting faster can increase DPS. 

Primed Sure Footed allows for an increase in DPS as well when the user can repeatedly fire at things that are normally too close to them without slowing their fire rate due to being knocked down, allowing the mod to be used offensively.

It is still an exilus mod, but because of the changes to self damage now allows the mod a huge offensive potential as well. That is not an exilus level of functionality.

Except that it by definition is exilus level not only due to DEs own words but also because nothing changed on functionality front.
And no it doesnt increase the DPS you can do with AOE weapons (also LMB/E/melee exists if you need to hit something within 5ft of yourself and quickmelee now is faster than it used to be because holster windup animation isnt part of it anymore) because it doesnt change effective maximum firing rate, count nor raw stats. Hypothetical compensation for what one can only assume is your lack of skill isnt a valid point when talking about mathematical values be it about PSF or anything else. As for the argument with NT (and Reload and Mag size mods) was that a average sub 8% dps difference in unrealistic situations and a sub 3% in realistic with only mechanically niche by their own design outliers isnt sufficient of a DPS difference to not make those mods not also exilus, that also more often are used for a utility reason.

[cute_moth.npc]

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

Except that it by definition is exilus level not only due to DEs own words but also because nothing changed on functionality front.
And no it doesnt increase the DPS you can do with AOE weapons (also LMB/E/melee exists if you need to hit something within 5ft of yourself and quickmelee now is faster than it used to be because holster windup animation isnt part of it anymore) because it doesnt change effective maximum firing rate, count nor raw stats. Hypothetical compensation for what one can only assume is your lack of skill isnt a valid point when talking about mathematical values be it about PSF or anything else. As for the argument with NT (and Reload and Mag size mods) was that a average sub 8% dps difference in unrealistic situations and a sub 3% in realistic with only mechanically niche by their own design outliers isnt sufficient of a DPS difference to not make those mods not also exilus, that also more often are used for a utility reason.

Yes, it does increase the DPS of an AoE weapon in close proximity - if you are not using PSF and fire in proximity to yourself, you will obviously stagger or fall over. PSF allows the user to use the mod in an offensive manner and eliminate the need for caution while using explosive weaponry entirely, wiping out groups in close proximity with rapid fire shots without losing efficiency. It is a mod with a non hypothetical, clearly offense based benefit in the current state of the game.

Yes, it is an exilus mod like I said before. And while the functionality of the mod did not change, the design of the game changed and wildly increased the scope of what the mod allows the user to do. That does not change the fact that like I said before, it is also far above what the other exilus mods do and its functionality is not equivalent. Please circle back to my original post, the point I made to the OP is that the feature they asked for (a slot for mobility mods) already exists, but it has been diluted by mods that offer things with a value far higher than other than mobility and utility offerings. You're saying I am "extremely incorrect" to state this?

[Andele3025]

12 hours ago, Twin_Fawn said:

Yes, it does increase the DPS of an AoE weapon in close proximity - if you are not using PSF and fire in proximity to yourself, you will obviously stagger or fall over. PSF allows the user to use the mod in an offensive manner and eliminate the need for caution while using explosive weaponry entirely, wiping out groups in close proximity with rapid fire shots without losing efficiency. It is a mod with a non hypothetical, clearly offense based benefit in the current state of the game.

Yes, it is an exilus mod like I said before. And while the functionality of the mod did not change, the design of the game changed and wildly increased the scope of what the mod allows the user to do. That does not change the fact that like I said before, it is also far above what the other exilus mods do and its functionality is not equivalent. Please circle back to my original post, the point I made to the OP is that the feature they asked for (a slot for mobility mods) already exists, but it has been diluted by mods that offer things with a value far higher than other than mobility and utility offerings. You're saying I am "extremely incorrect" to state this?

Yes.
Not only because its real dps value is 0 thus hypothetical compensation for what one can only assume is your lack of skill isnt a valid point, but because the exilus pool isnt diluted because nothing changed in their function (except for the one mod that got removed from exilus without its values buffed to be on average worth using in primary slot on anyone but grendel, inaros and maybe hildryn), mobility is still king on average as proven by stats of 1/10th of frames one is likely to see in parties being Wukong.

[cute_moth.npc]

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Yes.
Not only because its real dps value is 0 thus hypothetical compensation for what one can only assume is your lack of skill isnt a valid point, but because the exilus pool isnt diluted because nothing changed in their function (except for the one mod that got removed from exilus without its values buffed to be on average worth using in primary slot on anyone but grendel, inaros and maybe hildryn), mobility is still king on average as proven by stats of 1/10th of frames one is likely to see in parties being Wukong.

I see. Basically the entire current AOE meta, most of the community, all of the streamers (lol), the numerous threads covering the topic would disagree with you that the mobility mods are going to be king vs. PSF. You aren't convincing on this issue, sorry!

I'd also like to invite you to look at my profile which is a lot of Titania, Protea and Operator time. You can also go back through and find my posts where I like to make fun of people who shoot at their own feet in order to win, but that's a factual reality in this game. I don't use a lot of frames that would even use PSF, and haven't been arguing from a perspective of "oh no PSF is precious" at all, which makes me find it strange that you're on your second accusation that because I acknowledge what it does is not equivalent to the other Exilus mods that I must suck. 

That's neat. I like to have fun discussions though, and you're resorting to personal attacks. Thank you for the discussion.

[Kaggelos]

Personally im of the idea that most exilus mods regarding bullet jumping, latching, sliding, double jumps etc should somehow be merged into more coherent mods that are worth implementing into your warframes.

i wont get into specifics atm, too much hassle, but my point still stands i believe.

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Twin_Fawn said:

I see. Basically the entire current AOE meta, most of the community, all of the streamers (lol), the numerous threads covering the topic would disagree with you that the mobility mods are going to be king vs. PSF. You aren't convincing on this issue, sorry!

Posts of maybe 2-5% of players dont matter much just like before when people were whining that saryn or equinox or whatever other frame that all had not even a third of the play amount of post rework wukong speak volumes. Also TPlasmor, Cedo, Ignis Wraith, Nukor, Splicer and Pyr Prime all dont. Meanwhile getting to exit of a mission 15s~40s faster is always going to be more rewards.

And as said your lack of skill at not shooting outside of stagger rage is not a argument that PSF is magically giving guns extra max dps just as objectively and demonstrably the Xoris never gave exalted weapons any extra dps.

1 hour ago, Twin_Fawn said:

because I acknowledge what it does is not equivalent to the other Exilus mods that I must suck. 

Because you are stating something objectively and mathematically incorrect to which the only logical in good faith reasoning one can get from it is that you dont know how to aim (nor use q, since titania) to the point where for you it looks like it does. Why i even clarified that unlike NT or Reload, which hypothetically do in practice are too small of a difference to matter in the majority of cases or are a intentional modding factor of the frame or gun (or bows to be precise), it in optimal conditions both has no mathematical nor practical point.

1 hour ago, Twin_Fawn said:

That's neat. I like to have fun discussions though, and you're resorting to personal attacks. Thank you for the discussion.

Im not, my argument from the first line is still plain and simple, nothing changed about mechanical function of exilus mods other than the one that was removed from them and as the rest of the game and meta show, mission speed wins. If you have a problem with aoe, address that in a post about aoe rather than making a false dichotomy acting as if utility mods without changes magically ceased being utility.

[cute_moth.npc]

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Posts of maybe 2-5% of players dont matter much just like before when people were whining that saryn or equinox or whatever other frame that all had not even a third of the play amount of post rework wukong speak volumes. Also TPlasmor, Cedo, Ignis Wraith, Nukor, Splicer and Pyr Prime all dont. Meanwhile getting to exit of a mission 15s~40s faster is always going to be more rewards.

And as said your lack of skill at not shooting outside of stagger rage is not a argument that PSF is magically giving guns extra max dps just as objectively and demonstrably the Xoris never gave exalted weapons any extra dps.

Because you are stating something objectively and mathematically incorrect to which the only logical in good faith reasoning one can get from it is that you dont know how to aim (nor use q, since titania) to the point where for you it looks like it does. Why i even clarified that unlike NT or Reload, which hypothetically do in practice are too small of a difference to matter in the majority of cases or are a intentional modding factor of the frame or gun (or bows to be precise), it in optimal conditions both has no mathematical nor practical point.

Im not, my argument from the first line is still plain and simple, nothing changed about mechanical function of exilus mods other than the one that was removed from them and as the rest of the game and meta show, mission speed wins. If you have a problem with aoe, address that in a post about aoe rather than making a false dichotomy acting as if utility mods without changes magically ceased being utility.

The fact that PSF allows you to use an "exilus" mod in an offensive manner in a way which meshes very well with the current AoE meta and that this allows you to repeatedly fire at close range, blanketing an area while simultaneously running through it without falling over is neither objectively nor mathematically incorrect. You can try this in simulacrum by equipping the mod and trying to see how many close proximity shots you can get off in one minute if you like ^^

I did not bring up whether I feel PSF is a problem to me or not at all, the original post was "We already have an exilus slot for your movement mods already, it's just generally taken by one or two mods that are simply way more valuable than others"

You're still resorting to personal attacks? At this point, go touch grass please ^^

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Twin_Fawn said:

The fact that PSF allows you to use an "exilus" mod in an offensive manner in a way which meshes very well with the current AoE meta and that this allows you to repeatedly fire at close range, blanketing an area while simultaneously running through it without falling over is neither objectively nor mathematically incorrect. You can try this in simulacrum by equipping the mod and trying to see how many close proximity shots you can get off in one minute if you like ^^

Except its not using a mod in a offensive matter because it provides no damage, hypothetical compensation for what one can only assume is your lack of skill at aiming and/or using quick melee isnt a argument.

1 hour ago, Twin_Fawn said:

You're still resorting to personal attacks? At this point, go touch grass please ^^

Project as you will, it aint a argument.

[cute_moth.npc]

3 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Except its not using a mod in a offensive matter because it provides no damage, hypothetical compensation for what one can only assume is your lack of skill at aiming and/or using quick melee isnt a argument.

Project as you will, it aint a argument.

I love touching grass but there's nothing but snow outside right now. Going to have to settle for touching some of my houseplants.

Have a nice weekend!

[Caelum-Warblade]

Look I appreciate the discussion as it is an interesting topic that has expanded into what Exilus mods really should be and shouldn't be but I think relates into the power creep issues within Warframe ultimately.

 

If anyone is trying to belittle someone else for having a "lack of skill" you're adding useless words in your argument and undermining your ability to have a valid opinion in the first place. In a non competitive game, you're really just being a passive aggressive idiot that wants to argue/ be right despite not really arguing a decent case against how, yes PSF enables a player to not stagger and thus DPS will increase.

 

I can't believe I have to explain this but DPS is based around a mathematical number that accounts for ALL instances of damage.

 

When you stagger it quite literally stops you from continuing to output damage, thus slowing down/reducing your total DPS. In MMO's there are boss phases which effectively use abilities that (if you stand in their aoe) will hit you with debuffs to slow/stagger/stun your character that can ultimately lead to a player not being able to output enough DPS to damage through a phase in time causing a raid wipe for example. Just to be thorough, that also in this case can be applied to a player self stunning with their own weapons thus slowing down their ability to fire the next shot and that is one less shot doing less damage, equating to lower DPS.

 

This is not a hard concept to grasp, so yes, PSF absolutely is able to be used in conjunction with a weapon that is explosive to allow a player to use the explosive weapon more aggressively to actually deal more instances of damage thus equating to a higher DPS output.

 

Like I said, I like the discussion generally, but there's no sense in being toxic just because you disagree with someone else, lets focus on the actual points we're trying to make here and agree to disagree as you can see I did with one guy at the beginning of this thread.