Exilus Bullet Jump Mods Should be Separated

[Caelum-Warblade]

Exilus Bullet Jump mods like Firewalker/Ice Spring/ Toxic Flight/Lightning Dash etc should be a separate and free upgrade for every Warframe. The Exilus bullet jump mods don't offer any major advantage and offer only slight improvements but at the same time allow for a little more customization to each Warframe aesthetic. Similar to how in the Plexus for Railjack there are Battle mods and Utility mods, Warframes should have the same system for things that add minor utility that don't negatively impact the balance of the game in any significant way.

[(NSW)Greybones]

What’s wrong with them being an option for when we don’t need all the power mods?

[cute_moth.npc]

I mean, that's what an Exilus mod is supposed to be and that's why we have an Exilus slot.

It's just that some "Exilus" stuff doesn't really make small differences. PSF as the big example is not an exilus level of functionality but it goes in that slot so bye to all of that other stuff lol ^^;

[Caelum-Warblade]

10 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What’s wrong with them being an option for when we don’t need all the power mods?

So the dilemma is that not all Exilus mods are equal and some of them provide staggering boosts where as some are just almost never going to get used due to them not providing anything significant in comparison, like for example:

Trading Primed Sure Footed for a Bullet jump mod is not at all worth it, especially the further you go in Warframe the more each bonus from the mods you put in those 10 slots matter.

 

Sacrificing functionality like that shouldn't have to exist when they've shown with the Plexus that they're willing to split the cost of mods across different systems that also add to the functionality overall.

 

It enhances your gameplay and not in a way that makes you further overpowered but extends capability in small ways that are satisfying, plus it allows them more creative freedom in level design as they can start to implement larger area's due to the larger bullet jumps etc etc, there's a list of reasons why I think this would be a good change but those are just a few!

10 hours ago, Twin_Fawn said:

I mean, that's what an Exilus mod is supposed to be and that's why we have an Exilus slot.

It's just that some "Exilus" stuff doesn't really make small differences. PSF as the big example is not an exilus level of functionality but it goes in that slot so bye to all of that other stuff lol ^^;

I mean not really when there are some very clear differences in mods that add pretty significant boosts, the drift mods can add about 15% power strength which is actually staggering on some Warframe abilities.

 

I think you guys are missing the point that mods that are more of trivial bonus's like Firewalker don't need to not get used because there's more functional mods to put in their place, I'm saying the system should make use that they exist and have their own specific spot that allows all Warframe players that little bit more unique flare and hell if they wanted they could even make ranking them up tied to achievement based systems that require effort to earn that extra little boost. Just a thought!

 

Example: Leveling up the Firewalker Bullet jump having an achievement system while having it equiped in it's "Bullet Jump Slot" and killing enemies with Heat Damage or other various achievementsthat are heat based! The same applies to other various Bullet Jump mods.

[(NSW)Greybones]

9 minutes ago, Caelum-Warblade said:

So the dilemma is that not all Exilus mods are equal and some of them provide staggering boosts where as some are just almost never going to get used due to them not providing anything significant in comparison, like for example:

Trading Primed Sure Footed for a Bullet jump mod is not at all worth it, especially the further you go in Warframe the more each bonus from the mods you put in those 10 slots matter.

 

Sacrificing functionality like that shouldn't have to exist when they've shown with the Plexus that they're willing to split the cost of mods across different systems that also add to the functionality overall.

 

It enhances your gameplay and not in a way that makes you further overpowered but extends capability in small ways that are also satisfying yet not overpowered, plus it allows them more creative freedom in level design as they can start to implement larger area's due to the larger bullet jumps etc etc, there's a list of reasons why I think this would be a good change but those are just a few!

Your value of PSF is very different to mine. I took Prime Shred when the option came up, so I still don’t have it; when I do get it, equipping the Bullet Jump mods instead of PSF won’t be a problem, because the value just isn’t there for me. I’ll agree that not all Exilus mods are created equal, but that’s subjectively a problem when not all playstyles are equal either; if they adjusted those bullet jump mods to be more interesting, I wouldn’t mind, but they don’t need to compete with PSF

You’re using PSF to, what, AoE to your hearts content and not have to worry about consequences?

[Caelum-Warblade]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Your value of PSF is very different to mine. I took Prime Shred when the option came up, so I still don’t have it; when I do get it, equipping the Bullet Jump mods instead of PSF won’t be a problem, because the value just isn’t there for me. I’ll agree that not all Exilus mods are created equal, but that’s subjectively a problem when not all playstyles are equal either; if they adjusted those bullet jump mods to be more interesting, I wouldn’t mind, but they don’t need to compete with PSF

You’re using PSF to, what, AoE to your hearts content and not have to worry about consequences?

Your points are totally fair but I think you're missing my point.

 

This post is not specifically about Prime Sure Footed, that was just an example but I also mentioned the drift mods as well and I'm more focusing on the fact that having Bullet Jump mods be separate and in their own category would ensure they actually do get used by more of the player base and to allow for players to use other mods in conjunction with them and it doesn't take away from a build nor provide any major advantage that is detrimental to the function of Warframe as a whole.

 

I do agree that you're right about not all playstyles being equal but you haven't really said anything that really counters my argument for why it wouldn't be a detriment to have the Bullet Jump mods be in their own category.

 

Using PSF also isn't always just about being able to AoE to one's hearts content, some of us just got tired of the drag animation being spammed from grineer/infested mobs about 1000 hours ago.

 

All the previous statements aside, I really don't understand why people are seemingly against this idea when the idea is to increase player diversity?

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Caelum-Warblade said:

Your points are totally fair but I think you're missing my point.

 

This post is not specifically about Prime Sure Footed, that was just an example but I also mentioned the drift mods as well and I'm more focusing on the fact that having Bullet Jump mods be separate and in their own category would ensure they actually do get used by more of the player base and to allow for players to use other mods in conjunction with them and it doesn't take away from a build nor provide any major advantage that is detrimental to the function of Warframe as a whole.

 

I do agree that you're right about not all playstyles being equal but you haven't really said anything that really counters my argument for why it wouldn't be a detriment to have the Bullet Jump mods be in their own category.

 

Using PSF also isn't always just about being able to AoE to one's hearts content, some of us just got tired of the drag animation being spammed from grineer/infested mobs about 1000 hours ago.

 

All the previous statements aside, I really don't understand why people are seemingly against this idea when the idea is to increase player diversity?

Probably because you won’t like what I have to say in counter to your argument

If you want to equip bullet jump mods you’re going to need to take a knock on power and may need to start engaging with lower-level content, and this is by design. What I’m seeing with your suggestion is some sort of plea for customisation in content that is designed to start requiring more consideration given to power and less consideration given to customisation. If you were playing nothing but Steel Path or something, you’re definitely dealing with a game mode that is designed for minimum customisation; our most varied builds find their place in the Star Chart, whereas SP is a mode designed to require a certain amount of optimisation at the cost of customisation

You’re probably better off asking for the bullet jump mods to be different

[Caelum-Warblade]

25 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Probably because you won’t like what I have to say in counter to your argument

If you want to equip bullet jump mods you’re going to need to take a knock on power and may need to start engaging with lower-level content, and this is by design. What I’m seeing with your suggestion is some sort of plea for customisation in content that is designed to start requiring more consideration given to power and less consideration given to customisation. If you were playing nothing but Steel Path or something, you’re definitely dealing with a game mode that is designed for minimum customisation; our most varied builds find their place in the Star Chart, whereas SP is a mode designed to require a certain amount of optimisation at the cost of customisation

You’re probably better off asking for the bullet jump mods to be different

Again you're still missing my point, "You’re probably better off asking for the bullet jump mods to be different" that's quite literally what I'm asking for.

 

It's not so much about me liking or disliking your points, I'm being objective about trying to raise a point that is for genuinely improving the game. I think we fundamentally have different viewpoints on the game design choice on this matter and that's fine, but I think you're wrong and you think I'm wrong and both are fine.

 

What's your reasoning for why someone "needs to take a knock on power and may need to start engaging with lower-level content" that makes literally no sense in terms of a game built around having varied content for players to enjoy. If a player chooses to play lower content that's great, if a player chooses to play higher level content great, both get to enjoy having their fancy bullet jump and have their builds focused in the direction they feel like playing, all parties win. Your suggestion forces a player to engage in a way they perhaps do not wish to and is a limiting mechanic.

 

You're suggesting a trivial and arbitrary rule, but I do appreciate that you're contributing an opinion and a different perspective, it's just subjective however and I subjectively think you're wrong.

 

In my opinion there's no reason to limit player creativity if it doesn't impact the game negatively and you've yet to tell me a reason why it is better to not have this than to not have this.

 

You'll actually find as you go to do longer steel path missions, it encourages more creativity and the player finding out how they want to tackle "end game".

Also, if they've already introduced the Subsume system with Warframe abilities, a bullet jump mod is not going to break the camels back.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You’re using PSF to, what, AoE to your hearts content and not have to worry about consequences?

Prime sure footed is one alternative for "long Protea's death". I've picked other options (e.g. Firewalker or Gloom) but PSF is still valuable option some people.

And what's "long Protea's death"? Consider this situation like this:

- you go into Temporal Anchor (4th ability) with not negative Duration

- you do some stuffs (takes e.g. 3/4 of your time)

- then some heavy gunner knocks you down and you get killed

- you rewind yourself (TA's rewind) and end up with low HP/shield

- you get stunlocked for short time but you are still vulnerable for attacks

- you get killed

If such situations happen then it sucks because you have just wait for your death. I don't mind dying but I hate when it's prolonged.

13 hours ago, Twin_Fawn said:

I mean, that's what an Exilus mod is supposed to be and that's why we have an Exilus slot.

Exilus slot is just one slot. I heard people put Prime sure footed here. I like to put Rush (45% speed afair). I rarely have place for something other than "my favorite mods". Even Amar sets (for heavy attack teleportation) is put in the frame that is not heavily forma'ed.

[(NSW)Greybones]

56 minutes ago, Caelum-Warblade said:

Again you're still missing my point, "You’re probably better off asking for the bullet jump mods to be different" that's quite literally what I'm asking for.

 

It's not so much about me liking or disliking your points, I'm being objective about trying to raise a point that is for genuinely improving the game. I think we fundamentally have different viewpoints on the game design choice on this matter and that's fine, but I think you're wrong and you think I'm wrong and both are fine.

 

What's your reasoning for why someone "needs to take a knock on power and may need to start engaging with lower-level content" that makes literally no sense in terms of a game built around having varied content for players to enjoy. If a player chooses to play lower content that's great, if a player chooses to play higher level content great, both get to enjoy having their fancy bullet jump and have their builds focused in the direction they feel like playing, all parties win. Your suggestion forces a player to engage in a way they perhaps do not wish to and is a limiting mechanic.

 

You're suggesting a trivial and arbitrary rule, but I do appreciate that you're contributing an opinion and a different perspective, it's just subjective however and I subjectively think you're wrong.

 

In my opinion there's no reason to limit player creativity if it doesn't impact the game negatively and you've yet to tell me a reason why it is better to not have this than to not have this.

 

You'll actually find as you go to do longer steel path missions, it encourages more creativity and the player finding out how they want to tackle "end game".

Also, if they've already introduced the Subsume system with Warframe abilities, a bullet jump mod is not going to break the camels back.

Mainly my stance is I want to see you limited, and then you figure yourself out from there, instead of being a demigod that sacrifices nothing for the privilege of power. To build for Steel Path is going to cost customisation, as it should, because it’s meant for optimal builds. Optimal builds will not have space for customisation

Right now those mods are a fine replacement for when we don’t need all the power, and your suggestion sounds like a personal preference instead of something objectively healthy for the game; to turn those mods (and other similar options ) into intrinsic effects for the sake of build customisation in game modes that aren’t designed to facilitate build customisation, you’ll be removing the already tenuous incentive for players to engage with the game and its combat instead of building for free power and treating the game like some kind of Dynasty Warriors, where gameplay is a snooze and the only thing to do is grind

edit: Hmm. Honestly, it was a struggle to think of a response because it draws upon an aspect of Warframe that I’m not sure is common knowledge

[(NSW)Greybones]

10 minutes ago, quxier said:

Prime sure footed is one alternative for "long Protea's death". I've picked other options (e.g. Firewalker or Gloom) but PSF is still valuable option some people.

And what's "long Protea's death"? Consider this situation like this:

- you go into Temporal Anchor (4th ability) with not negative Duration

- you do some stuffs (takes e.g. 3/4 of your time)

- then some heavy gunner knocks you down and you get killed

- you rewind yourself (TA's rewind) and end up with low HP/shield

- you get stunlocked for short time but you are still vulnerable for attacks

- you get killed

If such situations happen then it sucks because you have just wait for your death. I don't mind dying but I hate when it's prolonged.

Hm. That sounds interesting; I always figured PSF will find its use in something outside of “Shoot AoE at feet and live in Steel Path”. Honestly I sometimes wonder  whether I should have gone with it just to try and do something interesting with it, but altering attributes of my gun with Prime Shred was too tempting

[Caelum-Warblade]

33 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Mainly my stance is I want to see you limited, and then you figure yourself out from there, instead of being a demigod that sacrifices nothing for the privilege of power. To build for Steel Path is going to cost customisation, as it should, because it’s meant for optimal builds. Optimal builds will not have space for customisation

Right now those mods are a fine replacement for when we don’t need all the power, and your suggestion sounds like a personal preference instead of something objectively healthy for the game; to turn mods (and other similar options ) into intrinsic effects for the sake of build customisation in game modes that aren’t designed to facilitate build customisation, you’ll be removing the already tenuous incentive for players to engage with the game and its combat instead of building for free power and treating the game like some kind of Dynasty Warriors, where gameplay is a snooze and the only thing to do is grind

Okay so here's something we agree on, we both want the player to be limited however, it's in what way you and I believe the limitations should exist that differs.

Placing an arbitrary constriction on the Bullet Jump mod being in it's own category does nothing to affect gameplay in a way that makes a player overpowered nor does it make the game harder, it just removes/inhibits limitations placed on flavor and diversity.

If you want limitations, think of the Orphix missions and add content that actually denies us the use of our full powers, I love that, but for general gameplay, this suggestion about a simple bullet jump mod change and when we have access to the Subsume system, this just isn't a very compelling argument.

You also said: "your suggestion sounds like a personal preference instead of something objectively healthy for the game" and yet you go on to state initially "my stance is I want to see you limited, and then you figure yourself out from there, instead of being a demigod that sacrifices nothing for the privilege of power." That is a preference and yet you're basing your argument (which you've still yet to objectively make a concrete argument against this suggestion) off of your preference and harping on me for having mine... this makes no sense?

Bullet jump mods don't make you a demigod, they literally just add animation effects to your jump, a slight difference in distance, aim glide/wall latch duration and an elemental effect which does negligible damage anyways. You've also presented not a single point that shows how this change would negatively affect Warframe as a whole and why the bullet jump mods being treated differently and having their own spot on a Warframe would harm the game.

You don't need to limit a player in this way to objectively make the game better, you simply need to add new/interesting mechanics for players to work around that allows them the best amount of player freedom & creativity. Like I mentioned, this also opens up new options for level design where through the progression of improving one's bullet jump, they can now access area's in different ways than they were able to before hand thus also giving a sense of progression.

Also, you still haven't countered any of this:

Point number 1: There's no reason to limit player creativity if it doesn't impact the game negatively and you've yet to tell me a reason why it is better to not have this than to have this.

 

Point number 2: If they've already introduced the Subsume system with Warframe abilities, a bullet jump mod is not going to break the camels back.


At this point I think you're just disagreeing for the sake of it, which is fine if you don't "like" my points due to your preference, but at least come up with a reason in how making the bullet jump mods their own thing would actually hurt the game rather than benefitting it and don't complain about me stating my preference and basing solid arguments off of it when you're disagreeing based on yours, that's just hypocritical.

[(NSW)Greybones]

43 minutes ago, Caelum-Warblade said:

Point number 1: There's no reason to limit player creativity if it doesn't impact the game negatively and you've yet to tell me a reason why it is better to not have this than to not have this.

 

Point number 2: If they've already introduced the Subsume system with Warframe abilities, a bullet jump mod is not going to break the camels back.

Point 1: What creativity are you even talking about? I thought you were talking about creativity with builds at first, but I’m beginning to think you’re treating the bulletjump mods as some sort of particle effect changer, instead of a mod that might see use or even shine in different builds

Point 2: I’ll give you that a bullet jump mod being treated differently may not break the camel’s back. It’s the nature of your suggestion to make some mods an intrinsic, costless thing while freeing up the player to destroy themselves with fewer incentives to trade out the excessive power that’s destroying them that that I’m arguing against.

43 minutes ago, Caelum-Warblade said:

You also said: "your suggestion sounds like a personal preference instead of something objectively healthy for the game" and yet you go on to state initially "my stance is I want to see you limited, and then you figure yourself out from there, instead of being a demigod that sacrifices nothing for the privilege of power." That is a preference and yet you're basing your argument (which you've still yet to objectively make a concrete argument against this suggestion) off of your preference and harping on me for having mine... this makes no sense?

What are you looking for in a concrete argument against your suggestion? In order to engage with some of the Star Chart in a capacity to experience a fight, those mods are incentive. Hell, when searching for the fight, those mods can be a reward to equip. And they take the place of the power mods that we’d normally equip to get through higher-level content gating

I don’t know if you even know what I’m talking about; your suggestion would, what, leave those mod slots blank? “Whoops, want to fight level 40s but I got nothing to equip because what I’d equip is already perma-equipped because someone wanted to be able to customise themselves in Steel Path and beyond without paying anything for it. Nothing except… mods to increase my damage and my health”

 

 

Something just occured to me; do you have any idea if those bulletjump mods are worth keeping separate?

[Caelum-Warblade]

14 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Point 1: What creativity are you even talking about? I thought you were talking about creativity with builds at first, but I’m beginning to think you’re treating the bulletjump mods as some sort of particle effect changer, instead of a mod that might see use or even shine in different builds

Point 2: I’ll give you that a bullet jump mod being treated differently may not break the camel’s back. It’s the nature of your suggestion to make some mods an intrinsic, costless thing while freeing up the player to destroy themselves with fewer incentives to trade out the excessive power that’s destroying them that that I’m arguing against.

What are you looking for in a concrete argument against your suggestion? In order to engage with some of the Star Chart in a capacity to experience a fight, those mods are incentive. Hell, when searching for the fight, those mods can be a reward to equip. And they take the place of the power mods that we’d normally equip to get through higher-level content gating

I don’t know if you even know what I’m talking about; your suggestion would, what, leave those mod slots blank? “Whoops, want to fight level 40s but I got nothing to equip because what I’d equip is already perma-equipped because someone wanted to be able to customise themselves in Steel Path and beyond without paying anything for it. Nothing except… mods to increase my damage and my health”

 

 

Something just occured to me; do you have any idea if those bulletjump mods are worth keeping separate?

Thank you for specifically answering those points. 

So first off, with regards to your first point:

"Point 1: What creativity are you even talking about? I thought you were talking about creativity with builds at first, but I’m beginning to think you’re treating the bulletjump mods as some sort of particle effect changer, instead of a mod that might see use or even shine in different builds"

 

I see the Bullet Jump mods as interesting enough to add to Warframes and to add small changes to little mechanics that Warframes have that don't pose any major threat to the overall gameplay of Warframe. When I'm talking about creativity, I'm saying that the Exilus slot has several more mods that are more useful and as such will most likely prevent players from utilizing those mods, so why not get the best of both worlds in allowing freedom in player build choice and to have the ability to improve different aspects of Warframes.

 

Secondly with regards to your second point:

 

"Point 2: I’ll give you that a bullet jump mod being treated differently may not break the camel’s back. It’s the nature of your suggestion to make some mods an intrinsic, costless thing while freeing up the player to destroy themselves with fewer incentives to trade out the excessive power that’s destroying them that that I’m arguing against."

 

That's why I'm not arguing for things like the drift mods to be separated or any mods that could potentially cause a major power creep in ways that would further destabilize the beast that Warframe already is, I think it's very particular mods like Bullet Jump mods that fit the criteria of, beneficial but not overpowered or significantly game changing that could be put in a Utility slot for example similar to how the Plexus operates for your Railjack. I also am not suggesting as many slots for your Warframe like the Railjack I'm only recommending one that augments movement in small ways.

 

Finally with regards to the rest of your statements:
 

"What are you looking for in a concrete argument against your suggestion? In order to engage with some of the Star Chart in a capacity to experience a fight, those mods are incentive. Hell, when searching for the fight, those mods can be a reward to equip. And they take the place of the power mods that we’d normally equip to get through higher-level content gating

I don’t know if you even know what I’m talking about; your suggestion would, what, leave those mod slots blank? “Whoops, want to fight level 40s but I got nothing to equip because what I’d equip is already perma-equipped because someone wanted to be able to customise themselves in Steel Path and beyond without paying anything for it. Nothing except… mods to increase my damage and my health”

Something just occured to me; do you have any idea if those bulletjump mods are worth keeping separate?"

 

What I'm looking for in terms of a concrete argument is, How would making Bullet Jump mods a separate category that get their own specific slot for Warfames damage/negatively impact the game rather than enhance it? I'm not saying that Drift mods or things like Primed Sure Footed should get their own cost, that would be Ludacris, I'm simply saying, numerous mods in the Exilus category are wasted and don't end up seeing nearly any use and it's honestly a shame because it's resources that are already in the game so why not use them?

 

And honestly at this point I have no idea what you're talking about (like what was your little rant I put in bold above even about because it veers way off of what I'm suggesting) because I think you've either missed my point completely or somehow we've veered onto a totally different page of specifically what we're talking about which is why I defined what I think would benefit the game numerous times.

I will state once more just to make certain you absolutely understand what I'm asking for, The Bullet Jump mods are not important enough to be justified being used in the Exilus slot or regular Warframe slots, but they should be incorporated into a separate mod slot under a "Utility" slot like how the Railjack Plexus has Utility slots". 

 

Finally, yes those Bullet Jump mods are worth keeping separate even if just to at least use the effort that was put into giving all of them their own unique effect when jumping and the fact that the resources are in the game, why not use it? 

 

Regardless of this, remember I do agree, I want Warframe to not have a massive power creep and I'm also still waiting for challenging end game content to allow me to really sink my teeth into what this game has to offer, because we can both agree Warframe has an enormous amount of potential.

[(NSW)Greybones]

35 minutes ago, Caelum-Warblade said:

Thank you for specifically answering those points. 

So first off, with regards to your first point:

"Point 1: What creativity are you even talking about? I thought you were talking about creativity with builds at first, but I’m beginning to think you’re treating the bulletjump mods as some sort of particle effect changer, instead of a mod that might see use or even shine in different builds"

 

I see the Bullet Jump mods as interesting enough to add to Warframes and to add small changes to little mechanics that Warframes have that don't pose any major threat to the overall gameplay of Warframe. When I'm talking about creativity, I'm saying that the Exilus slot has several more mods that are more useful and as such will most likely prevent players from utilizing those mods, so why not get the best of both worlds in allowing freedom in player build choice and to have the ability to improve different aspects of Warframes.

 

Secondly with regards to your second point:

 

"Point 2: I’ll give you that a bullet jump mod being treated differently may not break the camel’s back. It’s the nature of your suggestion to make some mods an intrinsic, costless thing while freeing up the player to destroy themselves with fewer incentives to trade out the excessive power that’s destroying them that that I’m arguing against."

 

That's why I'm not arguing for things like the drift mods to be separated or any mods that could potentially cause a major power creep in ways that would further destabilize the beast that Warframe already is, I think it's very particular mods like Bullet Jump mods that fit the criteria of, beneficial but not overpowered or significantly game changing that could be put in a Utility slot for example similar to how the Plexus operates for your Railjack. I also am not suggesting as many slots for your Warframe like the Railjack I'm only recommending one that augments movement in small ways.

 

Finally with regards to the rest of your statements:
 

"What are you looking for in a concrete argument against your suggestion? In order to engage with some of the Star Chart in a capacity to experience a fight, those mods are incentive. Hell, when searching for the fight, those mods can be a reward to equip. And they take the place of the power mods that we’d normally equip to get through higher-level content gating

I don’t know if you even know what I’m talking about; your suggestion would, what, leave those mod slots blank? “Whoops, want to fight level 40s but I got nothing to equip because what I’d equip is already perma-equipped because someone wanted to be able to customise themselves in Steel Path and beyond without paying anything for it. Nothing except… mods to increase my damage and my health”

Something just occured to me; do you have any idea if those bulletjump mods are worth keeping separate?"

 

What I'm looking for in terms of a concrete argument is, How would making Bullet Jump mods a separate category that get their own specific slot for Warfames damage/negatively impact the game rather than enhance it? I'm not saying that Drift mods or things like Primed Sure Footed should get their own cost, that would be Ludacris, I'm simply saying, numerous mods in the Exilus category are wasted and don't end up seeing nearly any use and it's honestly a shame because it's resources that are already in the game so why not use them?

 

And honestly at this point I have no idea what you're talking about (like what was your little rant I put in bold above even about because it veers way off of what I'm suggesting) because I think you've either missed my point completely or somehow we've veered onto a totally different page of specifically what we're talking about which is why I defined what I think would benefit the game numerous times.

I will state once more just to make certain you absolutely understand what I'm asking for, The Bullet Jump mods are not important enough to be justified being used in the Exilus slot or regular Warframe slots, but they should be incorporated into a separate mod slot under a "Utility" slot like how the Railjack Plexus has Utility slots". 

 

Finally, yes those Bullet Jump mods are worth keeping separate even if just to at least use the effort that was put into giving all of them their own unique effect when jumping and the fact that the resources are in the game, why not use it? 

 

Regardless of this, remember I do agree, I want Warframe to not have a massive power creep and I'm also still waiting for challenging end game content to allow me to really sink my teeth into what this game has to offer, because we can both agree Warframe has an enormous amount of potential.

Your suggestion would remove available options when a player searches for the fight instead of obliterating everything. That’s the thing that is a detriment to the game.

But of course you have no idea what I mean, because in typical Warframer fashion, Warframe doesn’t have any fight to give outside of Steel Path. I think this argument has reached an impasse, because I’m coming from a playstyle that deals in attributes of Warframe that it feels like you have no or very little idea of. Such a shame that these resources are unused; I find a use for them as an option for use in the Star Chart, but they’re not worth equipping for the standard Warframer.

Look, I really don’t want to end on a dour note, but my god, the frustration of trying to reach across the gap between our playstyles and talk to someone who thinks there’s only one real way to play; that’s true frustration. There are the simplest of concepts I can’t even bring up, like “Usefulness of ‘Garbage mods’” or “Fighting in the Star Chart” or “In-mission balance”, because there’s like, so little in common between the fighting playstyle and the obliterating playstyle, and the obliterating playstyle definitely doesn’t have room for the Bulletjump mods, wheras because the fighting playstyle is practically an opposite, the Bulletjump mods may find a place (depending on the build), and they may absolutely find a place in both the Exilus slot or standard slots alongside other Exilus.

edit: Obliterating playstyle? Optimal build playstyle? I don’t know what to call it; the playstyle that makes everything way too easy

[Caelum-Warblade]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Your suggestion would remove available options when a player searches for the fight instead of obliterating everything. That’s the thing that is a detriment to the game.

But of course you have no idea what I mean, because in typical Warframer fashion, Warframe doesn’t have any fight to give outside of Steel Path. I think this argument has reached an impasse, because I’m coming from a playstyle that deals in attributes of Warframe that it feels like you have no or very little idea of. Such a shame that these resources are unused; I find a use for them as an option for use in the Star Chart, but they’re not worth equipping for the standard Warframer.

Look, I really don’t want to end on a dour note, but my god, the frustration of trying to reach across the gap between our playstyles and talk to someone who thinks there’s only one real way to play; that’s true frustration. There are the simplest of concepts I can’t even bring up, like “Usefulness of ‘Garbage mods’” or “Fighting in the Star Chart” or “In-mission balance”, because there’s like, so little in common between the fighting playstyle and the obliterating playstyle, and the obliterating playstyle definitely doesn’t have room for the Bulletjump mods, wheras because the fighting playstyle is practically an opposite, the Bulletjump mods may find a place (depending on the build), and they may absolutely find a place in both the Exilus slot or standard slots alongside other Exilus.

edit: Obliterating playstyle? Optimal build playstyle? I don’t know what to call it; the playstyle that makes everything way too easy

I agree that this argument has reached an impasse, but at the same time, I don't really see it necessary to keep restating my stance awaiting for you to provide an actual argument against me without veering off topic.

 

You're coming off as pompous in this retort and at this point you're being reductive to the conversation basically trying to snub the validity of the arguments I've made probably because you don't have anything constructive to add at this point and that's okay to disagree, but you haven't really stated anything to disprove what I've stated. 

 

I don't want to leave this on a sour note either, and I can agree to disagree, but you've not said a single thing to tell me how Bullet Jump mods would harm the game by being put into a separate category and you're just prattling on about an array of issues rather than staying on topic.

 

I wish you the best in your time with Warframe, I stand by my opinion that the game would benefit from the changes I've suggested and think your arguments haven't lead to anything that could make an actual argument otherwise. Bullet Jump mods do not affect power creep in any harmful or negative way, and if they did, then explain how they do and form an actual argument against this, I'm still waiting.

[DoomFruit]

I'm probably one of those rare sort who consider bullet jump mods to be mandatory. A bit like punchthrough on non-explosive weapons. Mobility is its own reward, the added bonus of free CC on every jump (ice, fire, lightning procs) is just icing on the cake. Give me a maxed out elemental bullet jump mod and I'll beat Wukongs in a race to the exit.

[Tiltskillet]

18 hours ago, Caelum-Warblade said:

Exilus Bullet Jump mods like Firewalker/Ice Spring/ Toxic Flight/Lightning Dash etc should be a separate and free upgrade for every Warframe. The Exilus bullet jump mods don't offer any major advantage and offer only slight improvements but at the same time allow for a little more customization to each Warframe aesthetic.

If it's simply an aesthetic thing, it seems like the appearance/attachments tab is a more straightforward and flexible route.   We could have a bullet jump effects menu right under ephemera, and DE could reuse the assets from these mods.  And come out with new ones to acquire in some fashion.

Spoiler

Although I have to say, almost my first reaction to this thread was "Nerf Prime Sure Footed", lol.   Bad Tiltskillet, bad!

 

[Numerounius]

I think you underestimate just how much mobility you can get from adding one on, on all of my speed builds I have: Rush. sprint boost, infested mobility, bullet jump mod(can only equip one at a time), Telos Boltace, Agility and Consequence., Which I have on my Strength/duration mirage / Kuva Bramma build that can clear just about anything reasonably including Steel Path, it isn't a hassle to put on and actually presented me with a unique build opportunity that I am 99.9% sure nobody else has thought of.

 

For the bullet jump mods specifically they can go into any slot including the normal slots along with having them in each of the polarities make them a pretty good candidate to add onto a build's mod slot that would need to be polarized for a different loadout which can also be applied to the other exilus mods as well. Plus you fail to bring up mobilize and the other exilus utility mods that improve stuff like air glide, friction along with the other bullet jump mods other than the elemental ones. All of which are useful outside of barebones stuff which I have also attempted to account for in my builds.

 

This argument should be applied to the peculiar mods not the bullet jump mods since those provide no tangential gameplay benefit other than enlarging a target or putting flowers on someone. And the proposed "solution" just sounds like all of the cosmetics we already have in the game so I am a little bit confused as to why you are going through this effort for something that you think sounds like plays a bigger role than it actually does.

[Caelum-Warblade]

29 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

If it's simply an aesthetic thing, it seems like the appearance/attachments tab is a more straightforward and flexible route.   We could have a bullet jump effects menu right under ephemera, and DE could reuse the assets from these mods.  And come out with new ones to acquire in some fashion.

  Hide contents

Although I have to say, almost my first reaction to this thread was "Nerf Prime Sure Footed", lol.   Bad Tiltskillet, bad!

 

Honestly not a bad suggestion as an alternative for this in terms of the cosmetic, but I do think that adding Utility slots would allow us to further augment the capabilities of Warframes a bit as well so I'd still personally like it if we could incorporate them on a different slot for Warframes as I think the added effects from these mods could add to Warframes!

As for your second comment I laughed when I saw that, absolutely hilarious and honestly, I'm not opposed to them reducing Prime Sure Footed to a 90 percent or less, I think that we shouldn't have an absolute negate of CC for us, but I will admit it is nice! (Well, it's 99.9 but still) 

[Caelum-Warblade]

9 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

I think you underestimate just how much mobility you can get from adding one on, on all of my speed builds I have: Rush. sprint boost, infested mobility, bullet jump mod(can only equip one at a time), Telos Boltace, Agility and Consequence., Which I have on my Strength/duration mirage / Kuva Bramma build that can clear just about anything reasonably including Steel Path, it isn't a hassle to put on and actually presented me with a unique build opportunity that I am 99.9% sure nobody else has thought of.

 

For the bullet jump mods specifically they can go into any slot including the normal slots along with having them in each of the polarities make them a pretty good candidate to add onto a build's mod slot that would need to be polarized for a different loadout which can also be applied to the other exilus mods as well. Plus you fail to bring up mobilize and the other exilus utility mods that improve stuff like air glide, friction along with the other bullet jump mods other than the elemental ones. All of which are useful outside of barebones stuff which I have also attempted to account for in my builds.

 

This argument should be applied to the peculiar mods not the bullet jump mods since those provide no tangential gameplay benefit other than enlarging a target or putting flowers on someone. And the proposed "solution" just sounds like all of the cosmetics we already have in the game so I am a little bit confused as to why you are going through this effort for something that you think sounds like plays a bigger role than it actually does.

Ayee I appreciate the argument presented and perhaps I am underestimating the speed benefit these mods can give to frames or maybe it's understated but I think that in regards to how much they really impact things, it's negligible. I understand the Bullet Jump mods can be socketed into any slot (Aura aside) and that they can already be utilized, I'm simply suggesting a way to use them in conjunction with the mod slots we have and revamping what kinds of slots are used for what and how to allow augmentation of Warframes in different ways that are meant to enhance and diversify gameplay and add to the differences from player to player while still preserving what little "balance" Warframe still has.

 

It's not so much that I forgot about the other Exilus mods like you mentioned rather it just wasn't my aim, the subject of different slots in general for Utility itself is I guess the first circumstance to consider and if it's a good idea or not and then the second becomes, well what can we make Utility without damaging the moment to moment gameplay of Warframe. I think that there's numerous mods that don't see usage that could fit into this criteria which is partly the intention of why I think this would be a beneficial change for Warframe in general! 

 

As for the Peculiar, technically it's not wrong that adding some of those aren't directly harmful to the gameplay of Warframe, I think that those in particular are significantly different with their intent of application than the Bullet Jump mods for example, so I won't really delve too far into that subject but it's an interesting one to consider.

 

If overkill were to be defined in Warframe, I sincerely doubt Bullet Jump mods would be high on that list in terms of the things we add to our Warframes that make them overkill.

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, Caelum-Warblade said:

Honestly not a bad suggestion as an alternative for this in terms of the cosmetic, but I do think that adding Utility slots would allow us to further augment the capabilities of Warframes a bit as well so I'd still personally like it if we could incorporate them on a different slot for Warframes as I think the added effects from these mods could add to Warframes!

Ah, yeah.  I have to admit, my actual -first- reaction (before the PSF thing) was, "I don't know why anybody cares much about these effects I can barely see.  [shrug] Buuut... I sure would enjoy a bonus 25% bullet jump / roll velocity on all my frames without using a slot."

I don't know though.  In the bigger picture, I think we're already more than sufficiently mobile at baseline. 

[quxier]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Mainly my stance is I want to see you limited, and then you figure yourself out from there, instead of being a demigod that sacrifices nothing for the privilege of power. To build for Steel Path is going to cost customisation, as it should, because it’s meant for optimal builds. Optimal builds will not have space for customisation

Right now those mods are a fine replacement for when we don’t need all the power, and your suggestion sounds like a personal preference instead of something objectively healthy for the game; to turn those mods (and other similar options ) into intrinsic effects for the sake of build customisation in game modes that aren’t designed to facilitate build customisation, you’ll be removing the already tenuous incentive for players to engage with the game and its combat instead of building for free power and treating the game like some kind of Dynasty Warriors, where gameplay is a snooze and the only thing to do is grind

edit: Hmm. Honestly, it was a struggle to think of a response because it draws upon an aspect of Warframe that I’m not sure is common knowledge

Sacrificing some "power" for another might be fine to some degree. However you need to take into account how good those "bullet jump mods" are. You don't bullet jump very often so it's little waste of mod slots. If this was for rolls... oh boy I would put it on my double nerfed Xaku build.

I think I've put it in build because I have one free mod slot. It was long time ago. Nowadays I would put this "put enemies into sleep while in the air" mod.

 

Steel path requiring "optimal" builds is reason why I don't like it. We have so many mods and we won't use them. Non-SP can have some freeedom at least.

[(NSW)Greybones]

37 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sacrificing some "power" for another might be fine to some degree. However you need to take into account how good those "bullet jump mods" are. You don't bullet jump very often so it's little waste of mod slots. If this was for rolls... oh boy I would put it on my double nerfed Xaku build.

I think I've put it in build because I have one free mod slot. It was long time ago. Nowadays I would put this "put enemies into sleep while in the air" mod.

 

Steel path requiring "optimal" builds is reason why I don't like it. We have so many mods and we won't use them. Non-SP can have some freeedom at least.

Non-SP has all the freedom, spread out across all of its level tiers. To use those mods will require a sacrifice to power, and so often that power is unneeded to complete the content in the first place. Those mods are an option for when we don’t need all the power/An option for customisation when we meet the power requirement and we’re looking over our build and going “Hmm. I don’t need any more power for this fight; what else can I equip?”

I’m not sure how often you bullet jump, but I do it plenty in combat, and a little in between combat clusters (usually sprinting is a lot less frantic and I don’t miss resources or overshoot doors or whatever)

edit: All this talk about these mods has piqued my curiosity about build options that may utilise them more

real late edit: 🤔 The further we get away from obliterating everything, the more those mods have value. Bulletjump mods aren’t going to compete with a power-specialised Warframe, taking a Steel Path build into Star Chart content; the thought that they will is a little silly (although they still may have use). But the more we lose our power and get closer to the fight where we have to actually move to survive? That’s potentially a different story (depending on preference)

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

However you need to take into account how good those "bullet jump mods" are. You don't bullet jump very often so it's little waste of mod slots. If this was for rolls...

They work on rolls too.