The Sacrifice's Operator vs. Umbra mission is still one of the worst quests in an MMO, and it sets an abysmal precedent for anyone who finishes The War Within.

[bad4youLT]

5 hours ago, Lutesque said:

 

Yet the game does nothing to clue you in on this.... 

In case you didn't notice... Focus isn't Properly integrated into the game... You have go out of your way to upgrade your Focus.... So Naturally alot of players simply never bothered because ESO and Eidolon Hunts are Toxic Cesspits of Frustration....

If quests are going to require these things... Then they should be locked behind them similar to The New War....

An Example would be Locking the Sacrifice behind 1500 Hydrolyst Captures and 50 rotation C ESO runs.... 

Then you can be Absolutely certain that anybody doing The Sacrifice isn't going to run into those Issues.... Obviously that's never going to happen because even DE knows they can't convince alot of people to put up with that type of content just for a quest....

Both Magus Vigor and Husk are dirt cheap, easy to get and are tradable offering enough EHP even with out focus. 

Which is also easy to find sense player needs to grab Mote Amp from Onkko. 

Eidolon hunts arent toxic if you stick to pubs and your suggestion of thousands of runs is well over exadurated. 

Focus is introduced to the player post Second Dream which would and should naturaly lead player to wounder how to partake in the system. 

If you didnt, well thats your fault. 

[Orrion_the_Kitsune]

Same old Warframe fandom apologia, not at all worth responding to. Grow a few neurons and we'll talk.

[Orrion_the_Kitsune]

7 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

Both Magus Vigor and Husk are dirt cheap, easy to get and are tradable offering enough EHP even with out focus. 

Which is also easy to find sense player needs to grab Mote Amp from Onkko. 

Eidolon hunts arent toxic if you stick to pubs and your suggestion of thousands of runs is well over exadurated. 

Focus is introduced to the player post Second Dream which would and should naturaly lead player to wounder how to partake in the system. 

If you didnt, well thats your fault. 

I'm not sure if you know this (probably not because you're not doing content on a new account) but you can get to The Sacrifice easily without finishing Saya's Vigil and getting access to amps. It's not your fault, you probably aren't the type to make a new account to test it out. Yes, dude, let me spend a long time leeching off of other players in one set of content because a badly-designed quest suddenly popped up. The only reason you're brown-nosing DE is because you've already spent so much time playing the game that you can't fathom when things need to change for the better. That's not my problem.

[Redeye]

1 hour ago, Orrion_the_Kitsune said:

Grow a few neurons and we'll talk.

...wow. Moving on:

In my opinion, if it's not already the case, people should be guided more explicitely to Says's Vigil whenever they can do it - I'm sure it's already the case though - and then to Onkko once they can enter the room/cavern. I have two accounts and I had to do the Sacrifice without any amp (even the mote one), any operator arcane or focus, and I wouldn't recommand this for anyone. It's  doable but far from being an enjoyable experience. But that was on me as I deliberately disregarded the fact that I could ease things up.

However, if you've been given the opportunity to get arcanes, an amp by being directed towards it and did the same as I did, I'm sorry but you should blame your choices instead of the quest design. As it was said before Magus husk and vigor are easily obtainable. Before you say anything, you should know that some people here including me fought the Teralyst when he first came out, with the mote amp because that's the only one we had day one.

If we did it, then I'm fairly sure other Tenno can, even solo if you don't want to be carried and even more so if you already have a solid experience in other games, as you claimed. If you can't deal enough damage once the shield is down or if lures can't survive, you aren't picking the right weapons/warframe and/or need to forma/mod some more. This isn't the game's faullt either as it's content you're not supposed to do early. You still can, but it won't be easy which is to be expected.

So all in all, I wouldn't say it's bad quest design, but rather not enough directions given. If it's still as I remember as I don't think you're explicitely told to go and see Onkko. Maybe a warning before starting the quest as we had for TNW could do, telling you that you might want to visit Onkko and get better gear before starting the quest.

[Orrion_the_Kitsune]

3 hours ago, Redeye said:

...wow. Moving on:

In my opinion, if it's not already the case, people should be guided more explicitely to Says's Vigil whenever they can do it - I'm sure it's already the case though - and then to Onkko once they can enter the room/cavern. I have two accounts and I had to do the Sacrifice without any amp (even the mote one), any operator arcane or focus, and I wouldn't recommand this for anyone. It's  doable but far from being an enjoyable experience. But that was on me as I deliberately disregarded the fact that I could ease things up.

However, if you've been given the opportunity to get arcanes, an amp by being directed towards it and did the same as I did, I'm sorry but you should blame your choices instead of the quest design. As it was said before Magus husk and vigor are easily obtainable. Before you say anything, you should know that some people here including me fought the Teralyst when he first came out, with the mote amp because that's the only one we had day one.

If we did it, then I'm fairly sure other Tenno can, even solo if you don't want to be carried and even more so if you already have a solid experience in other games, as you claimed. If you can't deal enough damage once the shield is down or if lures can't survive, you aren't picking the right weapons/warframe and/or need to forma/mod some more. This isn't the game's faullt either as it's content you're not supposed to do early. You still can, but it won't be easy which is to be expected.

So all in all, I wouldn't say it's bad quest design, but rather not enough directions given. If it's still as I remember as I don't think you're explicitely told to go and see Onkko. Maybe a warning before starting the quest as we had for TNW could do, telling you that you might want to visit Onkko and get better gear before starting the quest.

I like this suggestion. As far as I can tell - and I've been paying close attention to every quest, the order in which I do it, and even minute details like how you can unlock the Void, do a certain story mission, and then take the back way into Sedna while skipping the junction until you feel like doing the junction (because the story mission unlocked the respective node in the Void) and so far, there's pretty much nothing that'd tell you to do Saya's Vigil if you hadn't already done it; the closest thing to a warning comes from Ordis, once you have already started the mission, and while there are passing references to the Quills, there's nothing suggesting to you from either a gameplay or story perspective that upgrading your Operator is a good idea. A simple warning when trying to start either The Sacrifice or it's final mission would suffice to fix this, akin to "This mission is doable without an upgraded Amp, but it is not recommended. Finish Saya's Vigil and visit The Quills to upgrade your Amp" is a nice idea.

I'll digress a bit, the mission is easy even with a R0 mote amp. There's a trick: you see that white tree? You can jump onto it, or the platform surrounding, and then blast Umbra as he aimlessly wanders around. I have a tendency to break games I play, and because I'm used to simplistic AI, one of my first thoughts upon blasting him with the amp and seeing it do minuscule damage was "Ah so it's one of those fights." As Umbra ran at me, I was quickly thinking of the best way to solve this problem... and I saw the tree, void dashed into it, and came across this bug/feature. You might die trying to stun him once you deplete his shield, because unlike most other enemies a stun doesn't actually stop him from acting even if he plays the animations, but otherwise it's trivial to beat Umbra. My criticism wasn't that this was difficult, because it wasn't. The straw man that I was criticizing the difficulty is people who did have difficulty, projecting their experience onto mine. I have an asymmetrical experience with every game I play, so it's very silly to respond to me like you would someone criticizing Dark Souls, and even in the Souls game, the 'Git Gud' meme was just that: a meme people began to take seriously because they're idiots. As an even funnier aside, if they fixed the tree bug, DE would also end up fixing a number of other things about the mission anyway.

Yes, I know you can kill Eidolons without an upgraded amp. I killed the one in Saya's Vigil without any amp at all. I don't want to leech, that's all.

[bad4youLT]

3 hours ago, Orrion_the_Kitsune said:

I'm not sure if you know this (probably not because you're not doing content on a new account) but you can get to The Sacrifice easily without finishing Saya's Vigil and getting access to amps. It's not your fault, you probably aren't the type to make a new account to test it out. Yes, dude, let me spend a long time leeching off of other players in one set of content because a badly-designed quest suddenly popped up. The only reason you're brown-nosing DE is because you've already spent so much time playing the game that you can't fathom when things need to change for the better. That's not my problem.

Sayas vigil is mandatory quest for players progression in the game dou to cetus and plains of Eidolon nodes placed right before Mars junction. 

Problem here is that this can be by passed by taxi or other means as I noticed new players get confused as to why they get stuck by unintentionaly skipping said quest. 

[Orrion_the_Kitsune]

2 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

Sayas vigil is mandatory quest for players progression in the game dou to cetus and plains of Eidolon nodes placed right before Mars junction. 

Problem here is that this can be by passed by taxi or other means as I noticed new players get confused as to why they get stuck by unintentionaly skipping said quest. 

It is straight-up not mandatory, my friend. This is a fact. All that you need to do to 'skip' it, intentionally or unintentionally, is not click on Konzu's fourth dialogue option. Since not doing something is way easier than doing it, and it's presented as completely optional, it's easy to understand why people may not do it.

[bad4youLT]

43 minutes ago, Orrion_the_Kitsune said:

It is straight-up not mandatory, my friend. This is a fact. All that you need to do to 'skip' it, intentionally or unintentionally, is not click on Konzu's fourth dialogue option. Since not doing something is way easier than doing it, and it's presented as completely optional, it's easy to understand why people may not do it.

If you skip is dialog or ignore the quest the path to Mars junction will remain locked. 

Sayas vigil is mandatory because of how it works, simple by going into plains from cetus will not unlock Eurasia ( mobile defense). 

Player has to do Sayas vigil because it makes Plains of Ediolon node count as missions complete unlocking Eurasia which is essential for Mars junction path progression. 

Problem here is that this can be skiped by taxi which is what I often see new players ask as they get stuck on Earth not understanding why they cant continue star chart. 

[Orrion_the_Kitsune]

2 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

If you skip is dialog or ignore the quest the path to Mars junction will remain locked. 

Sayas vigil is mandatory because of how it works, simple by going into plains from cetus will not unlock Eurasia ( mobile defense). 

Player has to do Sayas vigil because it makes Plains of Ediolon node count as missions complete unlocking Eurasia which is essential for Mars junction path progression. 

Problem here is that this can be skiped by taxi which is what I often see new players ask as they get stuck on Earth not understanding why they cant continue star chart. 

This is also not true. The Mars junction requires you to finish the quest Once Awake, which only requires you to have finished Vor's Prize. You know, that mission you do at the start of the game? That's it's only requirement. Also, you don't need to do Saya's Vigil to get completion for Plains, you need to do one bounty (the starting one, specifically - it's a scaling bounty and can be done at any time) and bounties do not require you to have finished Saya's Vigil.

[Redeye]

27 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

Player has to do Sayas vigil because it makes Plains of Ediolon node count as missions complete unlocking Eurasia which is essential for Mars junction path progression.

Isn't just doing a random bounty marking the node as completed? It was, last time I checked. It's been a long time since I did it myself but I've helped a handful of new players recently and I'm fairly sure it hasn't changed.

Regarding the player being told that the quest is available and since the only two conditions to make it so is be MR1 and do one bounty on PoE, I'm assuming that the notifications they added in their last new player experience would do it, but again, I won't be able to verify it.

I'm 99% sure you're not told explicitely to go see Onkko though, which isn't normal in my opinion as it just basically unlocks amps. I mean, bar what Orrion said, which isn't really what I'd call a clear instruction given by the game. It's even more of a problem because between the moment you finish SV and the moment you are able to make Onkko's cave's door open, people will probably have completely forgot about SV, since you can't do this before you are done with TWW.

[bad4youLT]

2 minutes ago, Redeye said:

Isn't just doing a random bounty marking the node as completed? It was, last time I checked. It's been a long time since I did it myself but I've helped a handful of new players recently and I'm fairly sure it hasn't changed.

Regarding the player being told that the quest is available and since the only two conditions to make it so is be MR1 and do one bounty on PoE, I'm assuming that the notifications they added in their last new player experience would do it, but again, I won't be able to verify it.

It doest, completing bountie wont unlock Eurasia. 

During Sayas vigil quest at one point you are required to go into Plains from your navigation which proceeds with objective, upon objective completion you exit Plains via special exit only avialable during the quest. 

And that is what makes Plains Of Ediolon node count as mission complete and unlocking Eurasia node for the player. 

[bad4youLT]

18 minutes ago, Orrion_the_Kitsune said:

This is also not true. The Mars junction requires you to finish the quest Once Awake, which only requires you to have finished Vor's Prize. You know, that mission you do at the start of the game? That's it's only requirement. Also, you don't need to do Saya's Vigil to get completion for Plains, you need to do one bounty (the starting one, specifically - it's a scaling bounty and can be done at any time) and bounties do not require you to have finished Saya's Vigil.

Il make video specially just for you on new account once Im amble to access my PC 

[Lutesque]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

You might have to explain your other statement about how focus isn't "properly" integrated into the game when it very well is.

It isnt.... If it was then people wouldn't doing New War With Mote Amps....

11 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

. The game gives you a focus lens to start your journey, slap that onto any rank 30 weapon/frame and you're good to go. ESO and Eidos are bonus areas for Focus.

You just Proved my Point...

Outside Eidolons and ESO there is Definitely No Such Thing as Focus.... 

Even Kuva is better integrated than Focus is.... It drops in more places and has more Content Associated to it beyond two Toxic Game Modes.... Including Nightwave.... 

Focus may aswel just be as Isolated as Conclave.... Atleast conclave has the decency of night being required to Enjoy Story Quests.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Redeye]

5 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

Il make video specially just for you on new account once Im amble to access my PC 

Care to do the same about what unlocks the nodes after Cetus/PoE? I'm fairly sure you're wrong on this one. I also did a quick search and found a post on reddit and a wiki discussion stating that it just needed you to complete a bounty to mark the node as completed. Here's the reddit one:

Oh also, 

2 hours ago, Orrion_the_Kitsune said:

it's very silly to respond to me like you would someone criticizing Dark Souls, and even in the Souls game, the 'Git Gud' meme was just that: a meme people began to take seriously because they're idiots.

I'm afraid that you misinterpreted what I meant here. Then again, english isn't my first language and I'm doing too many things at a time for the few braincells that I have left while I'm writing here. 🙃

I'm not telling you to git gud. I'm telling you that if the game offers you the opportunity to get better gear for one of its aspects and that you chose not to go for it knowing that your operator was as tough as wet paper and has a nerf gun for a weapon, then it's on you if you're struggling later on.

That goes for you, me, anyone in this game and even in other games. But that's provided that the game tells you explicitely enough first, without going as far as holding your hand. Hence my suggestion.

[Lutesque]

10 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

Both Magus Vigor and Husk are dirt cheap, easy to get and are tradable offering enough EHP even with out focus. 

I have those on my Newbie Account....

They make Zero Difference in most Content.... After all without Focus they are Squishier than Every Warframe except one of Them....

10 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

 

Eidolon hunts arent toxic if you stick to pubs and your suggestion of thousands of runs is well over exadurated. 

Duh....

And no... They are extremely Toxic....

This isn't just a Player Behaving Badly Thing.... Toxicity is Integrated into their Design.... 

What did you think was gonna happen when you have an Extremely Rewarding Game Mode with a Time Limit and Requires Co-Operation ? Why don't you take longer than 30 Seconds to Place your Shard in the Shrine and See For Yourself...

Most recently... Not even Two Days Ago... I juumped into an Eidolon Hunt (not to actually Hunt Eidolons But to get Cores).... And had an MR 25 Player Join me.... Then Leave after he loaded in....

Presumably because he looked at my Loadout and MR and Assumed I would be useless (He was Right)....

I see this sort of thing happen all the time.... Shoot a Synovia before Any Lures are Charge ? "Player Has Left".... 😐 

Summon a Mech ? "Player Has Left"....

And those are just the decent examples.... There's no shortage of people who are more than Willing to Throw Insults and vocally take their Frustrations out on their Team Mates.... That's just how Eidolons are and have Always been....

 

10 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

Focus is introduced to the player post Second Dream which would and should naturaly lead player to wounder how to partake in the system. 

Just because it should.... Doesn't mean it does....

Iike I said.... It points torwards two of the most Toxic Game Modes in Warframe.... Ofcourse Players never bothered with that Headache.... And then Here comes The Sacrifice that Punishes you for it And The New War That Punishes you for Bothering to Do Focus....

10 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

If you didnt, well thats your fault. 

3 hours ago, Redeye said:

 

In my opinion, if it's not already the case, people should be guided more explicitely to Says's Vigil whenever they can do it - I'm sure it's already the case though - and then to Onkko once they can enter the room/cavern.

I'm glad you bring this Up because It turns out you can Do Saya's Vigil LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before The War Within.... The Quest literaly becomes Available after Completing The First Bounty and surprise surprise alot of people actually Do do this.... 

After Completing The Quest you get an Email That Tells you to Come back after The War Within.... Using the Same Confusing jargon in The New War so Naturally People Didn't Understand it and even if they Did they Forgot because Theyre are like 7 Whole Planets Between Saya's Vigil and The War Within....

Why isn't this Quest Unlocked AFTER the War Within....🤨 ?

3 hours ago, Redeye said:

 

However, if you've been given the opportunity to get arcanes, an amp by being directed towards it and did the same as I did, I'm sorry but you should blame your choices instead of the quest design.

You do realise.... Giving you a lense doesn't automatically mean you know how to do Eidolons Right....

 Not only That.... It doesn't even Direct You torwards ESO because it's not mentioned any where that you get a Focus Resonance Orb at the Start Of Each Zone so how would a player even  know that they are suppose to be doing ESO ? Especially at MR 4 where they probably aren't Equiped to even simply Survive in ESO....

Last but not least.... If the game actually does Manage To Succeed in getting you there....you the find out it's just a Toxic Cesspit....

Im my case I was confused the First Time I did ESO because I barely Got any Focus....

Turns out I had to Use Saryn or Mesa for that to Actually Work....

It Sucks.... It all Sucks... Which is why people don't Do it until they Suffer through The Sacrifice First....

 

[Redeye]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Not only That.... It doesn't even Direct You torwards ESO because it's not mentioned any where that you get a Focus Resonance Orb at the Start Of Each Zone so how would a player even  know that they are suppose to be doing ESO ? Especially at MR 4 where they probably aren't Equiped to even simply Survive in ESO....

Last but not least.... If the game actually does Manage To Succeed in getting you there....you the find out it's just a Toxic Cesspit....

Im my case I was confused the First Time I did ESO because I barely Got any Focus....

Turns out I had to Use Saryn or Mesa for that to Actually Work....

It Sucks.... It all Sucks... Which is why people don't Do it until they Suffer through The Sacrifice First....

You're only talking about focus. I was mainly talking about amps and arcanes here, but this can apply to focus aswell. You're talking about SO/ESO as if it's the only way to make decent focus, and I'm sure you know that it's not. I'm not even sure that it's the most efficient way, and that's coming from someone who has everything maxed and unlocked focus-wise.

You do not need to farm like a madman until you reach the daily cap every day of the week if you want to get the basic perks unlocked in order to ease your fight in the sacrifice.

What confuses me even more in what you're saying is that when I think about perks that would do that in the focus tree, I think about the hp and armor boost first. Maybe some others could also help - mainly the unbindable ones - then I remember that you mentioned that the Magus arcanes we were talking about did little to nothing.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

You do realise.... Giving you a lense doesn't automatically mean you know how to do Eidolons Right....

I... Uh. I'm sorry mate, this makes as much sense to me as "giving you a tablespoon of sugar doesn't automatically mean that you know how to build a PC". While the statement makes sense and is undoubtedly true, I'm kind missing the point here. Care to elaborate? 😅

[bad4youLT]

1 hour ago, Redeye said:

Care to do the same about what unlocks the nodes after Cetus/PoE? I'm fairly sure you're wrong on this one. I also did a quick search and found a post on reddit and a wiki discussion stating that it just needed you to complete a bounty to mark the node as completed. Here's the reddit one:

 

 

You are correct , it seems that either DE changed something or I forgot something over the years .

 

 

Here's a video showing that I was wrong 

[Redeye]

Thank you for verifying and letting us know. At least we're sure on this one now. 🙂

[(XBOX)Rez090]

4 hours ago, Orrion_the_Kitsune said:

I killed the one in Saya's Vigil without any amp at all.

Why did you even engage it at all?

 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

It isnt.... If it was then people wouldn't doing New War With Mote Amps....

You just Proved my Point...

Outside Eidolons and ESO there is Definitely No Such Thing as Focus.... 

Even Kuva is better integrated than Focus is.... It drops in more places and has more Content Associated to it beyond two Toxic Game Modes.... Including Nightwave.... 

Focus may aswel just be as Isolated as Conclave.... Atleast conclave has the decency of night being required to Enjoy Story Quests.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Pretty sure you start messing with the focus system before ever even starting with an amp. You're literally given a lens right after Second Dream, fairly certain most players will either ask in chat what they do with them, watch any of the numerous youtube videos discussing the focus system, they visit the forums to ask or they visit the wiki. If players are somehow using mote amps in TNW, then that is on them for not returning to Onkko and creating themselves a new amp.

 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

You do realise.... Giving you a lense doesn't automatically mean you know how to do Eidolons Right....

 Not only That.... It doesn't even Direct You torwards ESO because it's not mentioned any where that you get a Focus Resonance Orb at the Start Of Each Zone so how would a player even  know that they are suppose to be doing ESO ? Especially at MR 4 where they probably aren't Equiped to even simply Survive in ESO....

Last but not least.... If the game actually does Manage To Succeed in getting you there....you the find out it's just a Toxic Cesspit....

Im my case I was confused the First Time I did ESO because I barely Got any Focus....

Turns out I had to Use Saryn or Mesa for that to Actually Work....

Lenses have nothing to do with eidolons. You don't need to run eidolons to use lenses. Nothing needs to direct players to ESO because without LENSES you are not going to gain an ounce of focus. You probably barely got any focus your first time because you were probably solo and not getting enough kills.

[Orrion_the_Kitsune]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Why did you even engage it at all?

 

Pretty sure you start messing with the focus system before ever even starting with an amp. You're literally given a lens right after Second Dream, fairly certain most players will either ask in chat what they do with them, watch any of the numerous youtube videos discussing the focus system, they visit the forums to ask or they visit the wiki. If players are somehow using mote amps in TNW, then that is on them for not returning to Onkko and creating themselves a new amp.

 

Lenses have nothing to do with eidolons. You don't need to run eidolons to use lenses. Nothing needs to direct players to ESO because without LENSES you are not going to gain an ounce of focus. You probably barely got any focus your first time because you were probably solo and not getting enough kills.

Because I can.

Assuming that players would start trying to find out what Amps are because they were given a focus lens - something tradable and trivial - is a stretch at the best of times, and...

...lenses have nothing to do with The Sacrifice. The focus grind to get the +Health and +Armor nodes is immense, far longer still than if you just rushed The Sacrifice with an empty tree. It takes about 896,568 focus to get both nodes maxed, split across two schools. This is the key point you're missing: by the time you get to The Sacrifice, start the quest and figure it out that you need both Way-Bound nodes to not get one-shot, it'd take you longer to unlock them than it would to trudge through the quest.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

10 minutes ago, Orrion_the_Kitsune said:

Because I can.

Assuming that players would start trying to find out what Amps are because they were given a focus lens - something tradable and trivial - is a stretch at the best of times, and...

...lenses have nothing to do with The Sacrifice. The focus grind to get the +Health and +Armor nodes is immense, far longer still than if you just rushed The Sacrifice with an empty tree. It takes about 896,568 focus to get both nodes maxed, split across two schools. This is the key point you're missing: by the time you get to The Sacrifice, start the quest and figure it out that you need both Way-Bound nodes to not get one-shot, it'd take you longer to unlock them than it would to trudge through the quest.

I'm assuming most players would look at amp parts and arcanes when they first visit Onkko. Also, you don't even need to unlock the focus nodes you mention to fight Umbra. I fought Umbra with barely a node unlocked in the Naramon school, I wasn't getting one-shotted by him. Maybe you should've invested a bit of time into getting some arcanes from Onkko.

[Orrion_the_Kitsune]

23 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

I'm assuming most players would look at amp parts and arcanes when they first visit Onkko. Also, you don't even need to unlock the focus nodes you mention to fight Umbra. I fought Umbra with barely a node unlocked in the Naramon school, I wasn't getting one-shotted by him. Maybe you should've invested a bit of time into getting some arcanes from Onkko.

I'm not assuming that, so that's our fundamental disagreement. I have no reason to think a new player would spend three days grinding Vomvalysts or leeching Eidolon runs enough to get either Husk or Vigor ranked up to a level where it'd have a meaningful impact, while you're assuming they would because it was easy for you to do so.

[OmegaVoid]

This fight is not a gear check.

I did The Sacrifice with a Mote Amp, no Operator Arcanes... and Focus Skills aren't necessary (I honestly can't remember if I'd unlocked any at that stage).

Initially I tried going toe-to-toe with Umbra, and I got Slash Dashed mercilessly. Since that clearly wasn't working, I spent a bit of time running away from him, trying to figure out a workable tactic. And I noticed a few things (which I'm putting under a spoiler 'cos I think it's more fun if you figure the fight out for yourself) ...

Spoiler

• the room you do this fight in has multiple elevation levels, connected by stairs
• Umbra has no ranged weapons, and will only Slash Dash you if you're on the same level
• Umbra don't jump

...and the penny dropped. 😃

Just get up on a balcony, go Operator and zap 'im with your Amp while he runs all the way around to the stairs, and up the stairs, and when he gets to the top of the stairs, just zip off the balcony... you can kite him all over the room like this, constantly wearing down his shields while staying out of danger.

I actually think it's a great fight, because while you can crush it quickly and easily with upgrades, if you understand the design of the fight it's also simple to beat with minimal gear, just not so quick.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2022-03-07 at 2:38 PM, bad4youLT said:

Here's a video showing that I was wrong 

Gotta respect this. Lesser folk would have gone Mysteriously Silent on their findings.

 

On 2022-03-07 at 7:38 AM, Orrion_the_Kitsune said:

I'm not sure if you know this (probably not because you're not doing content on a new account) but you can get to The Sacrifice easily without finishing Saya's Vigil and getting access to amps. It's not your fault, you probably aren't the type to make a new account to test it out. Yes, dude, let me spend a long time leeching off of other players in one set of content because a badly-designed quest suddenly popped up. The only reason you're brown-nosing DE is because you've already spent so much time playing the game that you can't fathom when things need to change for the better. That's not my problem.

On 2022-03-07 at 3:06 PM, Orrion_the_Kitsune said:

Because I can.

Assuming that players would start trying to find out what Amps are because they were given a focus lens - something tradable and trivial - is a stretch at the best of times, and...

...lenses have nothing to do with The Sacrifice. The focus grind to get the +Health and +Armor nodes is immense, far longer still than if you just rushed The Sacrifice with an empty tree. It takes about 896,568 focus to get both nodes maxed, split across two schools. This is the key point you're missing: by the time you get to The Sacrifice, start the quest and figure it out that you need both Way-Bound nodes to not get one-shot, it'd take you longer to unlock them than it would to trudge through the quest.

Yeah, I have personal experience on both sides of the equation. I had my normal account which was geared to the teeth, and of course Edgecalbur was no issue at all.

I've also bum-rushed through the story questline on bare minimum of no Focus or Amp and it turns out, the gear isn't necessary, the focus isn't necessary. As @OmegaVoid quite rightly points out, getting all the gear only lessens any need for engaging those neurons and figuring out the details: If you walk into him you will die. If you mindlessly try to crutch on Void Mode and fail to observe that Edgecalibur specifically attacks through that typical protection, yes, you will die.

If, however, you observe and account for the fact you can't just Nope your opponent with immunity, you can win the fight without dying, provided you maintain distance instead, using the elevation of the tile obviously goes a long way to help that, but even that isn't necessary. It's still a drawn-out battle of attrition, but not through unavoidably dying constantly, it's through waiting for the tickle-damage and non-Amped shared resource pool recovery after needing to Void Dash away.

And the fight, being perfectly doable at that level, is also why there was never any real argument for able-bodied players against New War locking you into its fights; there's already been practice and proof you can operate (literally) under harder limitations and weaker gear than you're guaranteed to have during the quest... and those who win by facetank attrition alone should know they're in need of more practice before another commitment.

[Orrion_the_Kitsune]

31 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Gotta respect this. Lesser folk would have gone Mysteriously Silent on their findings.

 

Yeah, I have personal experience on both sides of the equation. I had my normal account which was geared to the teeth, and of course Edgecalbur was no issue at all.

I've also bum-rushed through the story questline on bare minimum of no Focus or Amp and it turns out, the gear isn't necessary, the focus isn't necessary. As @OmegaVoid quite rightly points out, getting all the gear only lessens any need for engaging those neurons and figuring out the details: If you walk into him you will die. If you mindlessly try to crutch on Void Mode and fail to observe that Edgecalibur specifically attacks through that typical protection, yes, you will die.

If, however, you observe and account for the fact you can't just Nope your opponent with immunity, you can win the fight without dying, provided you maintain distance instead, using the elevation of the tile obviously goes a long way to help that, but even that isn't necessary. It's still a drawn-out battle of attrition, but not through unavoidably dying constantly, it's through waiting for the tickle-damage and non-Amped shared resource pool recovery after needing to Void Dash away.

And the fight, being perfectly doable at that level, is also why there was never any real argument for able-bodied players against New War locking you into its fights; there's already been practice and proof you can operate (literally) under harder limitations and weaker gear than you're guaranteed to have during the quest... and those who win by facetank attrition alone should know they're in need of more practice before another commitment.

You can also sit on top of the tree in the center and win the battle while AFK, without dying once. You're probably not clever enough to use verticality to your advantage, though. You, and a lot of people here, misinterpret my argument and I assume it is because you're too stupid to understand it (ignorance before malice, etc.) Before you use the "Git Gud" argument, do some research on the history of the meme. That meme is used to make fun of people like you.

I'll put it in nice, simple language so you can understand it with your functional neuron: this fight is one of those things that can be easy or difficult, and is bad regardless. I'm sorry you have trouble understanding that. They could have taken the quest in many other interesting directions, and they chose "sit there and shoot them for five minutes" when The New War shows that they are very willing to design interesting gameplay segments people will only see once or twice simply because said segments are interesting, and yet they chose this for The Sacrifice which is, lore-wise, one of the most important quests in the game.

People like you take my argument, extrapolate it out to fit your own insecurity, and then IMAX your stupidity for all to see as the cherry on top. That isn't my problem. I'm more annoyed that you're wasting my time with your brain-dead arguments, if you can't tell. If this was the zombie apocalypse, you'd be the last thing on a zombie's mind. If that hurts your feelings, don't act like a moron.