We need more stealth-based gameplay! (Here's what to do and here's why!)

[(XBOX)Mortis Carnifex]

Hello everyone! I haven't posted on here before, and I'm on mobile, so forgive any poor formatting. Tl:Dr at bottom.

I initially started playing Warframe because of the original ad "Ninjas Play Free" and that's what I expected from it. I remember taking the shortcut on corpus tilesets that let you completely skip elevators, The old wall run, and I remember getting my first Ash. Stealth has been my favorite aspect because I enjoyed dodge-rolling around enemies and doing the cutting throat thing. The "there's a blade suddenly through your chest" thing. The "I teleported behind you and removed your cloned kidney" thing. Very fun.

Anyway, after a short break I'm back! And all of a sudden people are speedrunning everything with the most outrageous explosive weapons possible. Even on Spy, they ensure that everything is very blown up. Obviously, can't stop people from using their Kuva whatever. It's fast and deadly and sometimes they have the decency of equipping mods like Hush or Suppressed.

Makes me miss when we (the space ninjas) wanted to be sneaky, and sneaky is good.

 

Firstly, being stealthy is actually somewhat challenging, especially when you have a full cell of uncoordinated Tenno. That challenge is a good chunk of what makes it fun. Ever just barely sneak past some guards in a Spy? Exhilarating. It's a lot better when you have a team of good sneakers though, if I'm slightly honest.

Secondly, there is a pretty big amount of game mechanics that encourage stealth, but not a lot of game to match it. Stealth take downs are available, but there's rarely any real reason to be sneaky other than personal choice. We can wall-run and wall-hang, but most maps feel like they aren't engineered for that (or with it in mind atleast). 

Lastly, we have weapons and Warframes that end up feeling lost. I've recently got myself a beautiful Baza Prime, but unfortunately I can't really justify bringing it for any high tier missions, mostly because of the odd MR29 guy who bullet-jumps past me with his damage cap explosive cannon. We also have Warframes who feel underwhelming in the current game climate. Banshee and Loki's passive, for example are pretty big ones. Banshee is naturally silent, and Loki is... really good at being a monkey? Hanging out? Ivara can pickpocket people? 

 

So...how do you fix something like that? Excellent question, I don't know. I don't really understand DE's game engine and I don't really know their stealth metrics. I also don't know what they have planned. I do have ideas that I hope someone from DE can utilize.

Introduce an Eximus that's highly resistant to AoE attacks/ Blast and is highly vulnerable to finishers and Puncture/Slash damage. Why? This prevents loud gameplay for stealth focused missions, creates a layer of complexity, and most melee weapons and stealthy shooty weapons deal puncture or slash damage. This would also allow more single target weapons to become useful as another thread pointed out they are losing their usefulness. 

Insert a new randomly appearing boss/enemy like Zanuka. The Corpus and Grineer have them, and the Syndicates have... something similar. Instead with this, make it where you need to take it down via stealth or a finisher. With the Operator, all players are capable of stealth using void mode. Why? Create a new, frightening foe to fight like old stalker vs new players. Have a new mini boss to defeat for the Infested or <spoiler faction>. Encourage new types of gameplay. 

Create new types of missions. Have a mission that's like an assassination, but there are multiple targets and they must be eliminated silently or with a finisher. Have a mission where you quietly infiltrate a ship with a railjack. Why? New mission types means gameplay variety. Railjack can diversify even more in gameplay. Players can finally utilize their stealthy builds and I can use my Shade again. 

With upcoming updates, allow more Operator sneaky gameplay just like in basically every main quest to date. Because the operator does not have 3000 shields, 2000 health, and 500+ armor, it's easy to die. So stealth is a main option. Why? You use your operator more, instead of once a mission and for fighting angry self-aware robots.

I fully believe stealth should be better utilized, and there isn't a lot of ways to do it in the current game.

That's all I've got for now. I'm very open to conversation, and I'm on discord if you'd like to chat. 

As promised TL;DR : I like stealth, the game has stealth aspects that are under-utilized and adding specific enemies + mission types can help create more stealth usage.

[Kainosh]

To improve Stealth there are only very few things actually needed: 

1)  Enemy detection indicators.    Just like Damage indicators, but with sound.    It would tell you if some enemy you do not see gets sus.

Because lack of special stealth HUD makes it much harder to track enemies, and that makes it slow and unreliable.

2)  Anti Invisibility Scanners.  Paint bombs.  AI that can utilize these.   Certain enemies must be equipped to fight stealth. There must be "Spotlights" that can reveal invisible Warframes.

Coz enemies have no means to fight invisible Frames.  Basically, if whole squad goes invisible, there is no retaliation. Enemies just stop attacking and run around.

3) Stealth lethal damage indicator.   Game should tell you if your stealth attack is going to kill.  

Also, I think that Melee stealth finishers should always be lethal.  It is just weird to see enemies stand up after such an elaborate killing move.

[(XBOX)Mortis Carnifex]

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

1)  Enemy detection indicators.    Just like Damage indicators, but with sound.    It would tell you if some enemy you do not see gets sus.

Because lack of special stealth HUD makes it much harder to track enemies, and that makes it slow and unreliable.

Actually if you use an enemy detection mod, you can tell where the enemy is, where they're looking, and how alerted they are. 

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

2)  Anti Invisibility Scanners.  Paint bombs.  AI that can utilize these.   Certain enemies must be equipped to fight stealth. There must be "Spotlights" that can reveal invisible Warframes.

Coz enemies have no means to fight invisible Frames.  Basically, if whole squad goes invisible, there is no retaliation. Enemies just stop attacking and run around.

I like an idea like this. Though, lasers already detect invisible people and most people can't be invisible long enough for it to be unfair. 

Spotlights like the Fortress spotlights, but it catches invisible frames?

[TheArmchairThinker]

You can make not going stealthy severely punishing if you want. Going loud on spy? Good luck, you only have 15 seconds the moment you open that vault door before the data gets deleted and cipher becomes unusable.

[Kainosh]

21 hours ago, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

Actually if you use an enemy detection mod, you can tell where the enemy is, where they're looking, and how alerted they are. 

Not when there are several floors.   And if you get distracted from minimap, you will not even notice, as there is no sound.

Nah, that kind of stuff must be visible either on the HUD, or projected by enemies themselves (like Deacons or cameras)

 

Also, Enemy pathing is very glitchy.  It can make them do sudden 360.   IMO, every tileset needs a specific "pathing" applied to it.   With patrol groups and stationary sniper units.  So that they never clutter in one spot or start spinning like crazy.

[Lutesque]

On 2022-04-19 at 9:56 AM, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

We can wall-run and wall-hang, but most maps feel like they aren't engineered for that (or with it in mind atleast).

The camera is also Terrible for this since you are technically Aiming and therefore are forced into a Zoomed in perspective when it would be Better if you were Zoomed Out instead.

On 2022-04-19 at 9:56 AM, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

Ivara can pickpocket people? 

Sadly Ivara can not Pick Pocket any enemy that's actually worth Pick Pocketing since DE special cased that feature to not work on those Enemies...

On 2022-04-19 at 9:56 AM, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

 

Introduce an Eximus that's highly resistant to AoE attacks/ Blast and is highly vulnerable to finishers and Puncture/Slash damage. Why? This prevents loud gameplay for stealth focused missions, creates a layer of complexity, and most melee weapons and stealthy shooty weapons deal puncture or slash damage. This would also allow more single target weapons to become useful as another thread pointed out they are losing their usefulness. 

Do this and people will just go back to Nuking with Warframe's....

On 2022-04-19 at 9:56 AM, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

Insert a new randomly appearing boss/enemy like Zanuka. The Corpus and Grineer have them, and the Syndicates have... something similar. Instead with this, make it where you need to take it down via stealth or a finisher. With the Operator, all players are capable of stealth using void mode. Why? Create a new, frightening foe to fight like old stalker vs new players. Have a new mini boss to defeat for the Infested or <spoiler faction>. Encourage new types of gameplay. 

What's to Stop them from Nuking it just like any other enemy ?

If it's the AoE Damage Resistance from before.... Then why do you want your Prefered Play Style at the Expensive of others.... ? 🤔

On 2022-04-19 at 9:56 AM, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

Players can finally utilize their stealthy builds and I can use my Shade again. 

Shade doesn't Work....

I don't think Shade has ever Worked... It's been Broken for the past 5 Years.... 😱

On 2022-04-19 at 1:15 PM, Kainosh said:

 

2)  Anti Invisibility Scanners.  Paint bombs.  AI that can utilize these.   Certain enemies must be equipped to fight stealth. There must be "Spotlights" that can reveal invisible Warframes.

Coz enemies have no means to fight invisible Frames.  Basically, if whole squad goes invisible, there is no retaliation. Enemies just stop attacking and run around.

This isn't going to encourage stealth.... It's just going to push more people into the AoE Meta.... Which I'm not even sure is possible at this point.... It's rare to see Loki and Ivara these Days....

Ash doesn't even have to bother because he can Kill everything that would See him Anyways....

On 2022-04-19 at 1:15 PM, Kainosh said:

3) Stealth lethal damage indicator.   Game should tell you if your stealth attack is going to kill.  

It shouldn't have to tell you.... In most games Stealth Attacks are Hard Coded to instantly kill anything you use them on....

On 2022-04-19 at 1:15 PM, Kainosh said:

Also, I think that Melee stealth finishers should always be lethal.  It is just weird to see enemies stand up after such an elaborate killing move.

Exactly....

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

You can make not going stealthy severely punishing if you want. Going loud on spy? Good luck, you only have 15 seconds the moment you open that vault door before the data gets deleted and cipher becomes unusable.

Which will drive people torwards the Wukong/Titania Meta....

Hell... It's already Faster to intensionally Trip some Security Measures than to go the long way around them.....

 

 

 

 

 

And with that.... I'm just going to leave this here 👀:

 

I will say.... Playing The New War.... DE is actually pretty good at Stealth Design especially considering how unstealth like Warframe is.... But since the whole Experience was Forced with no Toys and No Options it was extremely Frustrating....

 

[Room_17]

I like the stealth gameplay. Sneaking around and exploring the maps.

I would like to be able to farm Axi relics from spy, but that is only possible on Veil Proxima which takes a long time. Also weird going from a loud space battle to unalerted enemies on the ship you've been shooting.

Maybe insert better drop chance / drop loot on untriggered vaults. Kind of like Rescue got three stages of completion. Rescue/Stealth rescue/Kill all wardens.

 

A Primary / Secondary Arcane that gives silence and maybe bonus dmg to unalerted enemies. If I want projectile speed or ammo mutation on a weapon then I have to sacrifice dmg to silence the weapon.

 

I would like to use pet companions during stealth. Have some sort of don't attack and be quiet trigger.

 

Enemies that can throw some sort of paint bomb if they see multiple stealth kills, could be an interesting mechanic. Something you can react to and dodge.

Sensors / Guard towers with some sort of heat sensors that can detect invisible players and triggers the alarm if you're not careful.

[Sojufueled]

A slightly more generous stealth attack engagement distance and the return of some way to remove bodies would be a good start. Beyond that, there just isn't a ton of incentive to be sneaky, but I do remember when I first started relying on stealth kills to beat early missions and really caring about enemies making it to the alarms. It was fun. 

Mobile Defense is a mission mode that could easily be refreshed to encourage stealth. Instead of a bumrush at the point, patrols would come by to check it out and if you can silently eliminate them then all hell won't break loose. Sabotage is much the same.

[CephalonCarnage]

20 hours ago, Sojufueled said:

A slightly more generous stealth attack engagement distance and the return of some way to remove bodies would be a good start.

Its a point that is never addressed, what about the bodies? For stealthy missions, the bodies should aotumatically raise alarsm and that should bring down extra defences to prevent the tenno from getting to the objective. You can brute force it, but you'll make it much harder for yourself (as most missions shoudl have many ways to achieve the same result, you can stealth your way in and get an quick n easy objective completion, or blast your way in and then have to spend a while blasting away at barrier after barrier and hacking them open, mobile defence style). Everyone gets to do it their way.

I think the stealth modifier should be applied to most missions then - sabotage, but silent or with blast doors and console after console and reinforced reactor tubes. Exterminate by stealth too - you get 1 (distant) enemy target to kill, or you have to kill them all if you go in noisy and reinforcements get deployed.

etc.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

I agree, I have also talked about stealth been seen more in warframe. The problem is DE don`t make missions that evolve around warframes, most of the missions we have is killing, killing, killing ESO is the worst. As for what you said about operators unfortunately DE has removed void blast so they have no way of defending themselves and the focus changes don`t support operators only gameplay compared to now, what they should have done is keep the abilities we currently have and add the new ones to it.

One thing I would like to see is operators have void melee which can be summoned like Excalibur`s exalted blade and you can get bonuses depending on what weapon you use with what focus tree.

Even through I'm rubbish at stealth I love playing stealth, I use Ash to play stealth a lot coz his abilities fit that however Ash needs a revisit coz he has issues most ppl don`t know about and with some improvements he can get more playstyles and make him even better at stealth gameplay.

Here is an example:

Synergy: When Ash is invisible if he kills enemies with his 1,3 or 4, enemy bodies will disappear.

 

Here is a post I put up talking about stealth.

 

[(XBOX)Mortis Carnifex]

On 2022-04-20 at 10:02 AM, Lutesque said:

Do this and people will just go back to Nuking with Warframe's....

See, with the Eximus rework it's more difficult to simply nuke everything like before. 

On 2022-04-20 at 10:02 AM, Lutesque said:

If it's the AoE Damage Resistance from before.... Then why do you want your Prefered Play Style at the Expensive of others.... ? 

That's the thing, right now it's the AoE meta at the expense of others. Most people don't enjoy when other players fly through their missions exploding everything. Heck, players that do the explosions don't even like it. It's the "most efficient" thing to do. With Focus rework, and the number of frames in the game, it's extremely unlikely for someone to not have some way to open an enemy up to finishers. DE could just make you use a heavy attack to open it up to finishers when it gets low. 

[Lutesque]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

See, with the Eximus rework it's more difficult to simply nuke everything like before. 

Makes no Difference Really.... Making Things Harder to Nuke doesn't Change the Fact that that's still what the game Requires....

It's the same thing with Liches....before you could kill them Easily by Dealing alot of Damage to them.... Incomes Damage Attenuation and now you can kill them Easily by Dealing alot of Damage to them..... The main Difference is you no longer get to play how you want to play anymore....

The Eximus Reborn will be No Different because Killing Enemies one at a time is not a Thing in Warframe....

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

That's the thing, right now it's the AoE meta at the expense of others. Most people don't enjoy when other players fly through their missions exploding everything.

That just means the game needs a Better Matchmaking System.... It's not an excuse for either Group to ruin the fun for the others....

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

Heck, players that do the explosions don't even like it.

According to Who ? 🤔

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Mortis Carnifex said:

It's the "most efficient" thing to do.

You do realise some people like being Efficient Right ?

There's even entire Games built around Efficiency like Zoo Tycoon....

 

[Sojufueled]

21 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

 the bodies should aotumatically raise alarsm and that should bring down extra defences to prevent the tenno from getting to the objective.

They alert enemies at present. You used to be able to make them disappear in a cool animation by using melee channeling before it was removed.

[(XBOX)Mortis Carnifex]

14 minutes ago, Sojufueled said:

They alert enemies at present. You used to be able to make them disappear in a cool animation by using melee channeling before it was removed.

I miss that. Now the special lifts enemies into the air to make sure everyone knows