Editted: Eximus enemies feel kinda good

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

Slight Praise Post

Let me just say, BRAVO DE for bringing in Overguard and the eximus changes, the experience is intense! I died 10 times TODAY in steelpath FAIRLY because of Slow reflexes and misjudgements!!! Its been sooooo long since ive felt a death in warframe was of my own fault and not because my warframe couldnt take enough hits from the enemy, or because i didnt camp.

Felt like an actual warrior where you have to think out your moves because the enemies are really deadly and same attack wont always work!

Instead of simple shooting ducks in a barrel. Mindlessly spamming and shooting 

Edit: Unfortunately, there are some really grave issues....

Some issues i have started noting from people in the comments below and from doing more test runs myself, is that overguard enemies actually do scale and CC frames are suffering greatly from it.

Originally I thought i read in the patch notes that they didnt scale which i felt made things extremely fair. Afterall to survive in most of Warframes high level content you really need to have a way to keep all enemies under your control, whether that be through sheer damage, tanking, and crowd control. So if the overguard enemies were not scaling, i could see it sort of balance them out to me as theyd be easy to take out, but dangerous if they go unnoticed for too long

Unfortunately they do scale, which honestly makes some high level game modes feel unplayable with most Crowd Control warframes. Its most noticeable in SP disruptions where you have this huge tanky enemy to chase, while these eximus units are completely gunning you down. The enemies scale very fast too making the damage of those stray bullets really just force you out the gamemode, and you just have to helplessly fail it. Atleast much faster than you would before

Adding another way to helplessly make players fail a mission is quite horrid. Marks the difference between challenge and simply stopping player progression.

Challenge is when there is a lesson to be learned so that you can continuously overcome an obstacle(s). The more things to learn, the more you have to remember, and the faster you have to remember, the more "challenging" things become. This is what people who like challenge chase after, and what they mean when they ask for difficulty

When theres no lessons to be learned to get you to overcome an obstacle, ig Scaling Overguard against Crowd Control Warframes, then no challenge has been created. It just makes sure you fail the mission faster.

Please take note of that DE, and rework either Overguard, Warframe Combat, or both with these ideas in mind. 

__________

Aside from that, i just wanted to applaud the effort being made towards challenge man. Instead of feeling like im just farming, i felt like i was actually fighting too, and winning that fight. I hope to see more of that, and far less of simple "endurance stoppers", thanks so much!!! Cant say i love these people enough man

[sunderthefirmament]

Over all, I think it's a decent addition to the game, though it could still use some tweaking.  Amps need to be far more effective vs. overguard, perhaps with % based damage so they remain relevant.

 

I also don't love how having an Ancient Healer around suddenly means that my Garuda can't use her 1, even just to jump to enemies and create a shield.  DE should make overguard prevent the CC parts of the ability if it's a multifaceted ability like Garuda's 1, not just disable the ability entirely.

[Pizzarugi]

The one thing I can certainly say that I like about Overguard is the guardian eximus. Three indestructible rotating barriers is the first mechanics-based defense we've seen in a very long time and I'd like to see more of it.

Beyond that, I don't think making CC worse, in a game where DPS and nuke is the meta, was a great idea. I like Revenant for a lot of reasons, but now I have no reason to play any other frame thanks to his thralls still being able to distract the eximus which is among the closest thing to CC we've got that still works on them. Nyx, Nekros, Xaku, Caliban, and Nidus as well.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

The one thing I can certainly say that I like about Overguard is the guardian eximus. Three indestructible rotating barriers is the first mechanics-based defense we've seen in a very long time and I'd like to see more of it.

Beyond that, I don't think making CC worse, in a game where DPS and nuke is the meta, was a great idea. I like Revenant for a lot of reasons, but now I have no reason to play any other frame thanks to his thralls still being able to distract the eximus which is among the closest thing to CC we've got that still works on them.

I feel that but thing about CC in its current state is that it takes all the challenge out the game often times.

Limbo, cc vauban, cc slow nova, you dont play those warframes for cc if youre looking for challenge. CC has to be balanced before we can really talk about allowing it

Like you said, revenant cc is more challenge inviting, so is nyx, just use her energy as survivability through shield gate, run out of energy, rip but if you use her right, you live forever

 

Need an idea that keeps them from turning the game into an infinite pause menu

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I feel that but thing about CC in its current state is that it takes all the challenge out the game often times.

Limbo, cc vauban, cc slow nova, you dont play those warframes for cc if youre looking for challenge. CC has to be balanced before we can really talk about allowing it

As many Saryn and Mesa mains have told me over the years: Damage is a CC in an of itself. Why lock a room down when you can just nuke them all dead?

By making Overguard immune to CC, and some can even share that to nearby allies, you're only cementing the nuke meta since eximus isn't resistant or immune to high damage spikes.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

27 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

As many Saryn and Mesa mains have told me over the years: Damage is a CC in an of itself. Why lock a room down when you can just nuke them all dead?

While true, the game is still playable or still a game.  You still need to move around and stay on your guard in high level content, and the pressure intensifies the higher the rounds go, to where you really need to start making the best decisions to keep your damage output high enough

CC warframes? The overpowered ones?  No. They are able to stop all pressure in the game forever, especially limbo. Challenge removers. Its like running through a game where all the ai is actually turned off, and you are just there, poking the enemy

27 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

By making Overguard immune to CC, and some can even share that to nearby allies, you're only cementing the nuke meta since eximus isn't resistant or immune to high damage spikes.

I shed no tears over that. Challenge > no functioning enemies anywhere

I think variety is good, but it has to be implemented in a way that doesnt ruin/shutdown the game. Nukers stop doing that at some point, CC frames? Pfft. Need a better design

[Pizzarugi]

  

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

While true, the game is still playable or still a game.  You still need to move around and stay on your guard in high level content, and the pressure intensifies the higher the rounds go, to where you really need to start making the best decisions to keep your damage output high enough

CC warframes? The overpowered ones?  No. They are able to stop all pressure in the game forever, especially limbo. Challenge removers. Its like running through a game where all the ai is actually turned off, and you are just there, poking the enemy

  

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I shed no tears over that. Challenge > no functioning enemies anywhere

What challenge? If a nuke frame blows up the entire room, it's effectively the exact same thing.

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I think variety is good, but it has to be implemented in a way that doesnt ruin/shutdown the game. Nukers stop doing that at some point, CC frames? Pfft. Need a better design

What point do they stop doing that? When a mission reaches the point everyone extracts anyway?

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

What challenge? If a nuke frame blows up the entire room, it's effectively the exact same thing.

 

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

You still need to move around and stay on your guard in high level content, and the pressure intensifies the higher the rounds go, to where you really need to start making the best decisions to keep your damage output high enough

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

What challenge? If a nuke frame blows up the entire room, it's effectively the exact same thing.

Meaning enemies scale in health and damage, nukes frames dont, atleast not as fast as the enemies do. Meaning you eventually fall off

[Pizzarugi]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

You still need to move around and stay on your guard in high level content, and the pressure intensifies the higher the rounds go, to where you really need to start making the best decisions to keep your damage output high enough

What do you consider to be "high level content"? Steel Path? Nuke frames still dominate. Endurance runs where enemies are level 1000+? Nobody cares about that and the game wasn't designed for that level of play, otherwise there'd be more rewards for it.

For real, the closest thing to a reward that endurance runners get is a John Prodman poster.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

10 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

What do you consider to be "high level content"? Steel Path? Nuke frames still dominate. Endurance runs where enemies are level 1000+? Nobody cares about that.

Oh i get what you mean, yes some nuke frames need a reduction in damage, ig octavia 💀💀💀 shes broken

If you want to argue that then thats good, thats challenge inviting and i love that idea. Im thinking we are just talking about nukes as in simply high damage over a large radius. The frames damage will always fall off, cc never does

Yea im on your side if thats what you want to argue. Nerf the absurd damage numbers of some nuke frames. Or make them work for absurd damage, in a way thats like a reward you can use sometimes instead of all the time

Sounds dope

[Pizzarugi]

18 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Oh i get what you mean, yes some nuke frames need a reduction in damage, ig octavia 💀💀💀 shes broken

If you want to argue that then thats good, thats challenge inviting and i love that idea. Im thinking we are just talking about nukes as in simply high damage over a large radius

Yea im on your side if thats what you want to argue. Nerf that absurd damage numbers of some nuke frames

Yes, "nukes" tend to imply massive damage in a huge range such as Saryn, Mesa, or even Octavia. High single-target or small area DPS frames like Garuda or Revenant are nowhere nearly as problematic since they can't press one button to kill every enemy in the room.

That being said, surely you can agree that the current implementation of enemies with Overguard only reinforces this meta since it makes everything else, including CC, less viable?

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

That being said, you have to agree that the current implementation of enemies with Overguard only reinforces that meta since it makes everything else, including CC, less viable.

Yeah i agree, but its not as bad as letting cc dominate the game, nor is it as bad as letting both cc and nukes compleletly remove all challenge from the game.

[Pizzarugi]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Yeah i agree, but its not as bad as letting cc dominate the game, nor is it as bad as letting both cc and nukes compleletly remove all challenge from the game.

I think there's a miscommunication here. I'm saying Overguard is reinforcing the nuke meta which is removing all challenge from the game and making everything else less viable. :P

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

24 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I think there's a miscommunication here. I'm saying Overguard is reinforcing the nuke meta which is removing all challenge from the game and making everything else less viable. :P

Yeah youre forgetting this:

1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Oh i get what you mean, yes some nuke frames need a reduction in damage, ig octavia 💀💀💀 shes broken

If you want to argue that then thats good, thats challenge inviting and i love that idea. Im thinking we are just talking about nukes as in simply high damage over a large radius. The frames damage will always fall off, cc never does

Yea im on your side if thats what you want to argue. Nerf the absurd damage numbers of some nuke frames. Or make them work for absurd damage, in a way thats like a reward you can use sometimes instead of all the time

Sounds dope

Meaning i dont want nukes to obliterate content, but Its certainly much better than CC doing it though, i dont think theres anything more boring than trying to kill a horde of spongy enemies who arent moving. Might as well fight the wall, it doesnt move and can take a load of hits too

Atleast with nukes you can kill the enemies. If you dont like killing enemies, i dont know why youre playing warframe. Its literally its whole purpose for existence, even cc warframes need guns so they can kill

Hence the reason i say nukes are better for the game than cc

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

13 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I think there's a miscommunication here. I'm saying Overguard is reinforcing the nuke meta which is removing all challenge from the game and making everything else less viable. :P

I tend to agree - whilst I'm enjoying some aspects of the changes (the right sort of mission on sortie with eximus stronghold can cap my daily focus in one go) it has, I feel, reduced choice of playstyle. I play almost exclusively solo so this is just my personal feedback - Warframe offers us multiple ways to play; whilst I enjoy raining fire down on my enemies I also like completing objective based missions through controlling the battlefield. Not everything had to be destroyed on sight in order to suceed.

With this change that option is lost at higher levels as the tougher enemies make a beeline for the objective (whilst continuing to cast their abilities). Therfore the option is now down to "which enormous gun do I take". 

I'm not sure I'm qualified to suggest how his might be changed (if it were to be changed at all), but as a general comment I feel that, overall, there has been a reduction in choice across the different game modes.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cotton Tail said:

I tend to agree - whilst I'm enjoying some aspects of the changes (the right sort of mission on sortie with eximus stronghold can cap my daily focus in one go) it has, I feel, reduced choice of playstyle. I play almost exclusively solo so this is just my personal feedback - Warframe offers us multiple ways to play; whilst I enjoy raining fire down on my enemies I also like completing objective based missions through controlling the battlefield. Not everything had to be destroyed on sight in order to suceed.

With this change that option is lost at higher levels as the tougher enemies make a beeline for the objective (whilst continuing to cast their abilities). Therfore the option is now down to "which enormous gun do I take". 

I'm not sure I'm qualified to suggest how his might be changed (if it were to be changed at all), but as a general comment I feel that, overall, there has been a reduction in choice across the different game modes.

True. But i dont see how 1 likes the idea of just running through the mission as limbo 

Why not just ask for a skip button on the mission you know? You arent playing it. Or better, play against low level enemies. If you arent going to fight the enemies why play against higher level ones? Outside of rewards that is. Those lower level enemies will not destroy the objective in time i assure you, even with a weaker gun thats modded

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

Because I'm not skipping the mission. If DE gives us the tools to take an alternative route to completing a rescue, mobile defence, capture etc. then I believe it's quite a valid playstyle. Just because it isn't your preferred style doesn't mean I'm not playing it.

[Pizzarugi]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

True. But i dont see how 1 likes the idea of just running through the mission as limbo 

Don't enemies with Overguard hard-counter Limbo? I've seen people making threads saying they ignore Limbo's phasing and can still shoot and damage him even while he's banished. And here's the kicker: He can't shoot at them while he's banished to damage them back, he has to get out of it and expose himself to even more danger to knock the Overguard out.

That's going from countering his CC to straight up making him worthless since he no longer has any kind of defenses.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cotton Tail said:

Because I'm not skipping the mission. If DE gives us the tools to take an alternative route to completing a rescue, mobile defence, capture etc. then I believe it's quite a valid playstyle. Just because it isn't your preferred style doesn't mean I'm not playing it.

You arent engaging in the fight. Limbos bubble does all the work and plays the mission for you. Thats what i mean by you not playing it

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

13 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Don't enemies with Overguard hard-counter Limbo? I've seen people making threads saying they ignore Limbo's phasing and can still shoot and damage him even while he's banished.

That's going from countering his CC to straight up making him worthless since he no longer has any kind of defenses.

I dont know but if it is, thats a problem with a simple fix. 

Funny in the meantime, never liked limbos. Ill never let go all the times he forced me to play melee only with his random bubbles, still has annoying bannished enemies and enemies stuck at the edge rift. Rip sucka

[XAN3MK]

The overguard addition did absolutely nothing in terms of challenge. It just reinforced the skew towards frames that didn't need excessive CC to survive, while frames that depended on it need to be shelved or depend on additional gimmicks to get by.

Overguard or no overguard, an Eximus dies either way to 6 digit numbers - and you don't even need a specific frame to do that.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

20 minutes ago, XAN3MK said:

The overguard addition did absolutely nothing in terms of challenge. It just reinforced the skew towards frames that didn't need excessive CC to survive, while frames that depended on it need to be shelved or depend on additional gimmicks to get by.

Overguard or no overguard, an Eximus dies either way to 6 digit numbers - and you don't even need a specific frame to do that.

Excessive cc quite literally makes the game extremely easy? Its excessive right lol? How is it not harder that you have to down the eximus enemies whilst keeping up your cc against other enemies? 

Doesnt make sense

It has given other warframes a better light, but certainly has invited some more challenge as well. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

Blink twice if you're in danger and being forced to say these things.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

32 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Blink twice if you're in danger and being forced to say these things.

No i stand firmly by it. I dont enjoy playing games with less than 2 braincells active, mindlessly spamming abilities. Puts me to sleep. Need something that gets you to think a little, overguard enemies do just that. And since they dont scale, you can get away with squishy frames against them