Hystrix Prime is a trainwreck due to heavy nerf of Disposition

[(PSN)BMWWOW]

The Hystrix PRIME is literally worse than the regular Hystrix because of the insane NERF to the Riven Dispo.... you nerfed it too much, and therein I believe is something DE should really take into consideration:  How Much Is A Reasonable Nerf to Riven Disposition?

On my Regular Hystrix, with Riven Dispo 4, versus the Hystrix Prime with Riven Dispo 1.... the Prime does literally 20,000 Damage-Per-Second LESS.
Yes you read that correctly.  With a firing rate of 9.8 from Lethal Torrent, and a 72% Crit Chance from Creeping Bullseye, the REGULAR Hystrix is 100% Steel Path Worthy.
But when you dropped the buffs from the Riven to a THIRD of what they were due to the Riven NERF, the PRIME version of the Hystrix UNDER-PERFORMS the Regular version by 20,000 points DPS (not per shot, but overall in the course of all 9.8 shots in one second). 

That is WAAAYYYY to much a drop in damage, and hence bears the question: "WHY BOTHER USING THE PRIME VERSION EVER?"

I understand the idea of Riven Disposition.  In get it that it is intended to balance the game.

But I think there needs to be a serious consideration when Nerfing The Dispo of a Prime SO MUCH that it makes the PRIME version of a weapon WORSE than the non-prime.

Going from Dispo 4 to Dispo 1 on the Hystrix to H-Prime (and quite possibly other weapons?) is TOO MUCH of a drop / TOO MUCH of a Nerf.

Please take this into consideration - What is the point of the PRIME [ANYTHING]..?  The purpose is To be BETTER than the Regular Version... RIGHT?

A few points in Status Chance or Crit is nice on a Prime Item, but when you NERF the Riven Dispo THAT HARD, it has a 100% Counter-Productive effect, and leaves as the end result The Opposite of the Entire Point of being Prime.  

Please consider and adjust.  Thank you.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

1 hour ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

The Hystrix PRIME is literally worse than the regular Hystrix because of the insane NERF to the Riven Dispo.... you nerfed it too much, and therein I believe is something DE should really take into consideration:  How Much Is A Reasonable Nerf to Riven Disposition?

On my Regular Hystrix, with Riven Dispo 4, versus the Hystrix Prime with Riven Dispo 1.... the Prime does literally 20,000 Damage-Per-Second LESS.
Yes you read that correctly.  With a firing rate of 9.8 from Lethal Torrent, and a 72% Crit Chance from Creeping Bullseye, the REGULAR Hystrix is 100% Steel Path Worthy.
But when you dropped the buffs from the Riven to a THIRD of what they were due to the Riven NERF, the PRIME version of the Hystrix UNDER-PERFORMS the Regular version by 20,000 points DPS (not per shot, but overall in the course of all 9.8 shots in one second). 

That is WAAAYYYY to much a drop in damage, and hence bears the question: "WHY BOTHER USING THE PRIME VERSION EVER?"

I understand the idea of Riven Disposition.  In get it that it is intended to balance the game.

But I think there needs to be a serious consideration when Nerfing The Dispo of a Prime SO MUCH that it makes the PRIME version of a weapon WORSE than the non-prime.

Going from Dispo 4 to Dispo 1 on the Hystrix to H-Prime (and quite possibly other weapons?) is TOO MUCH of a drop / TOO MUCH of a Nerf.

Please take this into consideration - What is the point of the PRIME [ANYTHING]..?  The purpose is To be BETTER than the Regular Version... RIGHT?

A few points in Status Chance or Crit is nice on a Prime Item, but when you NERF the Riven Dispo THAT HARD, it has a 100% Counter-Productive effect, and leaves as the end result The Opposite of the Entire Point of being Prime.  

Please consider and adjust.  Thank you.

Oh boohoo. "My wiven is lower on new weapons than older weapons, stupid gun, you bewtter change this NOW!".

Dude, you have freaking known that all new weapons start with a .5 dispo. This is never going to be changed.

[GreyDeath789]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Dude, you have freaking known that all new weapons start with a .5 dispo. This is never going to be changed.

Riven disposition based on popularity is a horrible mechanic IMO. Yet it is what it is...however, if DE let us consume other riven for the same weapon to increase the stats so it is at least closer to the 'best' values that would be something... It sustains the economy as folks seek out the 'best' stats on a riven and then seek the riven that help improve those stats given the eventual 'rebalance' excuse by DE.

Instead, players work 'hard' to make a solid build for a weapon only to have the carpet pulled out from underneath them later.

 

[Gamma745]

12 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

players work 'hard' to make a solid build for a weapon only to have the carpet pulled out from underneath them later.

Isn't that the reason new weapons now start at lowest disposition? To prevent that from happening? They already tried to take your feelings into consideration.

[L3512]

The real trainwreck is the tiny magazine, slowish reload and the fact it does not deal elemental damage just procs.

[Zakkhar]

There was no nerf.

All new weapos start at 0,5 dispo. It has been like that for ages (since update from 2020, June 8)

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Riven_Mods

[(PSN)magusat999]

On 2022-08-22 at 2:22 AM, Zakkhar said:

There was no nerf.

All new weapos start at 0,5 dispo. It has been like that for ages (since update from 2020, June 8)

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Riven_Mods

Doesn't DE know that too? So when the weapon comes out and they see that the prime is actually hurt by this policy - they can make adjustments instead of just throwing it out there like that... cant they? The Prime should always be better than the regular, that's the point of Primes. So instead of having some static Riven policy, they can evaluate the effect of the disposition before rolling it out at the "standard" .5, and adjust accordingly. I think that's the point of OPs post, not being told how things are, but to describe a problem, and suggest a better way.

[Zakkhar]

3 hours ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

Doesn't DE know that too? So when the weapon comes out and they see that the prime is actually hurt by this policy - they can make adjustments instead of just throwing it out there like that... cant they?

It is their policy. The adjustment to dispositionn are made each new Prime Access, which is ~3months.

Weapon balance is not based on riven disposition. It is other way round. Riven disposition is based on weapon popularity, which direcly comes from how good the weapon is.

3 hours ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

The Prime should always be better than the regular, that's the point of Primes.

Says who? Why cant it be a sidedgrade? Anyway, it usually is better - statwise.

 

3 hours ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

So instead of having some static Riven policy, they can evaluate the effect of the disposition before rolling it out at the "standard" .5, and adjust accordingly.

And how do you propose they get the data about the popularity/overall power if it is not out yet?

Rivens original concept was to balance out weak/unpopular weapons. Not make powerful weapons even more powerful. You can still use it for the low dispo weapon.

3 hours ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

I think that's the point of OPs post, not being told how things are, but to describe a problem, and suggest a better way.

And i think his point was just venting. There is no problem to be described.

Wait 3+ months and see how the dispo rises.

Look at the previous releases:

Nagantaka. Normal 1,3, Prime on release 0,5, Prime now 0,8.

Scourge: Normal 1,2, Prime on release 0,5. Prime now 1,15

 

[(PSN)magusat999]

4 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

It is their policy. The adjustment to dispositionn are made each new Prime Access, which is ~3months.

Weapon balance is not based on riven disposition. It is other way round. Riven disposition is based on weapon popularity, which direcly comes from how good the weapon is.

Doesn't matter what their "policy" is. They can make a better "policy" that's why someone is making a post about how things fall through the cracks when you do something blindly.

The OP already knows how things work, and so do I. Neither of us asked for an explanation of how things "are". It doesn't matter how Weapon Disposition works - what matters is how to make it work better, so that it makes sense per the weapon.

4 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Says who? Why cant it be a sidedgrade? Anyway, it usually is better - statwise.

Says DE's marketing department ever since.. oh - when Primes first came out? Your talking like Primes have no meaning. They have always been marketed as "better then the regular in every way". I've never seen them advertised as "usually better" - and "usually better" is not good enough to call something a Prime. The very word "PRIME" means that it's better. They aren't called "Alternates" for a reason. And a "sidegrade" is wouldn't be called a "Prime".

 

4 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

And how do you propose they get the data about the popularity/overall power if it is not out yet?

Rivens original concept was to balance out weak/unpopular weapons. Not make powerful weapons even more powerful. You can still use it for the low dispo weapon.

By having a base standard, they don't need the popularity data. Overall power is easy to figure out through in-house testing. What they need to do, and if I am in line with the OP's post - is just make sure that the Prime is baseline better than the regular. That has nothing to do with popularity, and doesn't need to be. It's where the weapon will start, and that start - regardless of the parameters you pointed out, will be better than the original, non-Prime version.

Rivens were supposed to be to attract players to other weapons, not for "balancing" anything. And if we are going to have a Riven, it should make the weapon more powerful, even in a minor fraction - not as another way to nerf it. If that's the case - don't make a Riven for the weapon at all.

But again, here you are talking about the way things are. We know this - its about changing that.

4 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

And i think his point was just venting. There is no problem to be described.

Wait 3+ months and see how the dispo rises.

Look at the previous releases:

Nagantaka. Normal 1,3, Prime on release 0,5, Prime now 0,8.

Scourge: Normal 1,2, Prime on release 0,5. Prime now 1,15

If he was just venting, he wouldn't have offered a solution. Heck, even with no solution - because we all don't have a solution, but we can still see issues, that doesn't mean he was just "venting". Sounds like he wants an actual change to me - that sounds like more than just venting Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean the person isn't serious about their concerns. You don't see a problem, just means you don't see it - doesn't mean there isn't one.

Your proposal to wait is inapplicable in this case. You want something to be hot garbage while we gamble on whether it will be addressed in 3+ months. That's the "don't say, just pray" solution. No solution at all. Oh, MAYBE they will raise the disposition... Lets all hope...

No, I think these things should be discussed and considered right away. People want a usable item NOW, not sometime in the future... maybe. perfectly acceptable to complain about it right now, instead of sitting on your hands and praying through your rear end that a random event will happen and change it all out of thin air.

 

 

[Zakkhar]

31 minutes ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

The OP already knows how things work, and so do I.

I think we read different posts then.

 

32 minutes ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

It doesn't matter how Weapon Disposition works - what matters is how to make it work better, so that it makes sense per the weapon.

Best way to make it work better is to rant on forums about it. Oh, wait.

 

33 minutes ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

By having a base standard, they don't need the popularity data. Overall power is easy to figure out through in-house testing.

But the overall power is just a coefficient for popularity. The disposition relies on popularity, not power. There are plenty of overrated weapons that have low dispo because everyone uses them because popular youtuber made a video.

 

36 minutes ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

is just make sure that the Prime is baseline better than the regular.

And it usually is. Without taking rivens into account. Rivens aren't a must for a weapon to work and weapon never should be balanced around riven god rolls. Do you know the build variety based onn riven rolls? How do you expect to test it? And why test it at all, when it is being tested live by thousads of players that get the weapon and play with it?

39 minutes ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

Rivens were supposed to be to attract players to other weapons, not for "balancing" anything.

Exactly. Do you have schizophrenia by any chance? Because you have just contradicted your entire point.

41 minutes ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

If he was just venting, he wouldn't have offered a solution.

Would you be so kind and quote me that solution he is proposing? I dont see it.

43 minutes ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

Your proposal to wait is inapplicable in this case. You want something to be hot garbage while we gamble on whether it will be addressed in 3+ months.

If it is hot garbage, nobody will use it, hence low popularity, hence high dispo rise. But some people will use it because (surprise) not everyone picks a weapon based on the god roll riven they happen to own. Hell, many players do not even play the riven roulette. God forbid they had fun with the weapon, right?

45 minutes ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

People want a usable item NOW, not sometime in the future...

And it is totally usable now for everyone that doesnt own god roll riven for it. Otherwise, if they like the weaponn so much they can use normal version meanwhile.

[(PSN)manicmartz61]

On 2022-08-22 at 7:22 AM, Zakkhar said:

There was no nerf.

All new weapos start at 0,5 dispo. It has been like that for ages (since update from 2020, June 8)

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Riven_Mods

It's not a new weapon though, just a prime of an existing weapon. They are so scared of ' exploits or cheating ' everything gets 0.5 starts. Crazy imo. If the weapon is new ( like with styanax) then sure 0.5 riven dispo, but with a vanilla weapon being around for ages for it then to be primed at 0.5 is just silly.

[(PSN)GAV2482]

On 2022-08-22 at 5:36 AM, L3512 said:

The real trainwreck is the tiny magazine, slowish reload and the fact it does not deal elemental damage just procs.

Nothing wrong with the procs tbh