AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Tyreaus]

43 minutes ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

It looks that DE erased my posting  lol

When did you make it? It gets merged maintaining chronological order, so if you posted it yesterday, it might be some pages back.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 2 horas, (PSN)slightconfuzzled dijo:

Magnificante!! Great gameplay, and yeah, I like the comparison to Vauban. In my head she is like a mix of Vauban and Mag. 

Oh and your choice of music was dope too! I haven't watched the second clip yet though. Great stuff. 

The concept of the warframe is magnificent, I love the synergy it makes with any type of weapon as long as it has electrical damage. I like how it works with cernos prime. I think Pablo mentioned that it is a fusion of volt, vauban and mag in small strokes.

[ChaoticEdge]

6 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

When did you make it? It gets merged maintaining chronological order, so if you posted it yesterday, it might be some pages back.

my post got force merg for I wasn't even the same topic about "impact".  I think the dev needs correct their moderator which my suggestion is "improvement AI" and not AoE or impact from blast dmg of their side of topic.  It is annoying the moderator think I have same alibi with the other guy when my suggestion making AI better mechanic when we have players who use punch though for that counter for how is that same explosive do wide area of range.  Sometime it doesn't make any sense what they do, for sometime I keep on guessing that either they are guessing or they are assuming in guessing.  I always willing about to submit that ticket on their "issues statement" when the subject is not the same which I read their lotus guide 2.0 and their guide lines but I have the patient not get tick off of their action that easily. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 1 minuto, ChaoticEdge dijo:

my post got force merg for I wasn't even the same topic about "impact".  I think the dev needs correct their moderator which my suggestion is "improvement AI" and not AoE or impact from blast dmg of their side of topic.  It is annoying the moderator think I have same alibi with the other guy when my suggestion making AI better mechanic when we have players who use punch though for that counter for how is that same explosive do wide area of range.  Sometime it doesn't make any sense what they do, for sometime I keep on guessing that either they are guessing or they are assuming in guessing.  I always willing about to submit that ticket on their "issues statement" when the subject is not the same which I read their lotus guide 2.0 and their guide lines but I have the patient not get tick off of their action that easily. 

That topic seems interesting to me, I mean the AI thing.  Do you mean the AI of the enemies or the AI of the allies specifically?

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

43 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

The concept of the warframe is magnificent, I love the synergy it makes with any type of weapon as long as it has electrical damage. I like how it works with cernos prime. I think Pablo mentioned that it is a fusion of volt, vauban and mag in small strokes.

 

Agreed. Yeah, I imagine it would be quite fun with the Cernos Prime. Sometimes I'll temporary forget how well her 4 synergies with weapons, with electricity, then be surprised again with how effective it can be. 

Plus I really like that some of her abilities involve physics and have arcs and carry momentum. That is relatively unique, and brings in the potential for some skill shots, and rebounding your powers. Especially in Zariman with some of its multi level designs, and walkways and bridges. Being able to arc a volley up, then against a wall to carry down a hallway and seeing damage numbers pop up? Too sweet. 

I feel like her gameplay loop is just right, and I anticipate liking Styanax for similar reasons, as his ability loop seems similar (at least to how i play Gyre).

I do wish Alternox was a bit better independently. Not because I think its the worst weapon ever, just some of the last few Warframe weapons have been my favs (Epitaph, Cedo, Kompressa etc).

 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 23 minutos, (PSN)slightconfuzzled dijo:

Kompressa

That's just the secondary i use with her, viral + corrosive + elec effect proc works great..

[0_The_F00l]

Focus @CosoMalvadoNGand @(PSN)slightconfuzzled

Not talking about specific frame and weapon builds here (unless they relate to AoE changes)

Happy to have it in a different topic otherwise the derailers kinda win.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 12 minutos, 0_The_F00l dijo:

Focus @CosoMalvadoNGand @(PSN)slightconfuzzled

Not talking about specific frame and weapon builds here (unless they relate to AoE changes)

Happy to have it in a different topic otherwise the derailers kinda win.

Personally, the issue of the aoe and how the nerf bothers u all and all that is already boring for me, the change is going to arrive as soon as mid-September, whether u all like it or not. Leave if in some way you feel this nerf destroys your gameplay, that's it.

[0_The_F00l]

7 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Personally, the issue of the aoe and how the nerf bothers u all and all that is already boring for me, the change is going to arrive as soon as mid-September, whether u all like it or not. Leave if in some way you feel this nerf destroys your gameplay, that's it.

Uhhhh .... What ? I think you misunderstand me.

I am just requesting to stick to the topic , and not get sidelined , you wish to discuss gyre builds would be happy to do so , in a different topic.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 5 minutos, 0_The_F00l dijo:

Uhhhh .... What ? I think you misunderstand me.

I am just requesting to stick to the topic , and not get sidelined , you wish to discuss gyre builds would be happy to do so , in a different topic.

Ok, sorry for the misunderstood just learning the language :D

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Ok and sorry for the misunderstood 

No worries mate :)

[CharcoalNuggets]

Guess I just wanted to put my two cents in on this topic. I think the ammo nerf will work to make AOE weapons less spammy, but I don't think it'll change the usage rate too much. If the ammo change doesn't work, I think nerfing fire rate/reload speeds would be the more direct way to achieve what they want. Explosives dealing damage isn't the issue. Out-dpsing every other weapon in the game is though. The kuva bramma in particular stands out to me because its base charge speed is faster than the dread lol. I really think that if the base charge rate was like 1.1 or something a little higher it wouldn't have been nearly as much of an issue. I think they were getting towards something with the tenet envoy and the plasmor with the reduced fire rate/reload, unfortunately the zarr kinda slipped through that.

I don't think the usage rate is going to change all that much though because other weapons have simply been neglected. I've tried returning to some of the oldest weapons and using them on steel path alone as a sort of experiment, and my god it's painful. It should be noted that I wasn't using any special buffs or specific loadouts aside from mods since having to do that already kinda shows there's an issue. I was testing them on their own for comparison purposes. I think the reality is that we're also facing multiple problems here with armor DR even after the s-curve scaling changes. It's certainly doable, but the amount of time I'm just sitting there pounding bullets into a single enemy is crazy. The assault rifles that have kept up the best are (not surprisingly) the most recent kuva/tenet/prime rifles. The game balance will always be competing with infinite scaling and armor leaves relatively fewer options, while shields and health are perfectly manageable with whatever you want to do. 

Extra note that I want to mention since I've seen it being used as an example. The tonkor on release was scuffed because all explosions were bugged so that every hit was a headshot. Dealing 2x total damage can be the difference between chunking and one shotting. It wasn't noticed until then because every existing explosive was so garbage that you would just one shot yourself and only deal maybe 1/10th of the level 50 bombard's health. It's also important to note that the tonkor and simulor came around when the boltor/soma prime were king, so players were very eager for something new, which probably spiked the usage chart.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 3 minutos, CharcoalNuggets dijo:

Guess I just wanted to put my two cents in on this topic. I think the ammo nerf will work to make AOE weapons less spammy, but I don't think it'll change the usage rate too much. If the ammo change doesn't work, I think nerfing fire rate/reload speeds would be the more direct way to achieve what they want. Explosives dealing damage isn't the issue. Out-dpsing every other weapon in the game is though. The kuva bramma in particular stands out to me because its base charge speed is faster than the dread lol. I really think that if the base charge rate was like 1.1 or something a little higher it wouldn't have been nearly as much of an issue. I think they were getting towards something with the tenet envoy and the plasmor with the reduced fire rate/reload, unfortunately the zarr kinda slipped through that.

I don't think the usage rate is going to change all that much though because other weapons have simply been neglected. I've tried returning to some of the oldest weapons and using them on steel path alone as a sort of experiment, and my god it's painful. It should be noted that I wasn't using any special buffs or specific loadouts aside from mods since having to do that already kinda shows there's an issue. I was testing them on their own for comparison purposes. I think the reality is that we're also facing multiple problems here with armor DR even after the s-curve scaling changes. It's certainly doable, but the amount of time I'm just sitting there pounding bullets into a single enemy is crazy. The assault rifles that have kept up the best are (not surprisingly) the most recent kuva/tenet/prime rifles. The game balance will always be competing with infinite scaling and armor leaves relatively fewer options, while shields and health are perfectly manageable with whatever you want to do. 

Extra note that I want to mention since I've seen it being used as an example. The tonkor on release was scuffed because all explosions were bugged so that every hit was a headshot. Dealing 2x total damage can be the difference between chunking and one shotting. It wasn't noticed until then because every existing explosive was so garbage that you would just one shot yourself and only deal maybe 1/10th of the level 50 bombard's health. It's also important to note that the tonkor and simulor came around when the boltor/soma prime were king, so players were very eager for something new, which probably spiked the usage chart.

FUTURE CONSIDERATIONS

This AoE discussion on-stream was very lengthy and concluded in a conversation about other changes we considered, but that are not slated for Veilbreaker. We will be monitoring community feedback and the general roll-out of the above AoE rebalancing to see if we will continue with these:

Sure Footed and Primed Sure Footed

These mods were originally meant to negate enemy knockdowns, but found expanded purpose when we replaced self-damage with self-stagger and knockdown. We may eventually return these Mods to their original purpose by limiting knockdown resistance to enemies only. Alternatively, we are considering having the Primed version only reduce the intensity of self-stagger, reintroducing some amount of risk to close range explosives.

Again, these changes are not happening at this time, but were discussed on-stream as possibilities in the future.

Line of Sight

The next involved AoE weapons ignoring line-of-sight. Right now you can shoot enemies on the other side of walls and floors using large radial blasts. We have tested a change where only enemies close to the source of the explosion would be affected by the attack. That means if you shoot a Kuva Bramma at a wall with enemies behind it, only enemies within a certain range of the point of impact would be damaged.

Once again, this change is not in Veilbreaker! We will continue observing player behavior and make future changes accordingly.

Ammo Drop Changes

We also mentioned the possibility of making enemies killed by AoE weapons exclusively not drop Ammo for that weapon type -- so Bramma kills would not drop Primary Ammo -- thereby incentivizing you to use your full kit.

Should the current Ammo changes not be significant enough in impact, we will consider this system in the future as well.

https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-163-overview

[_LotusPrime_]

1 hour ago, CharcoalNuggets said:

 

I don't think the usage rate is going to change all that much though because other weapons have simply been neglected. I've tried returning to some of the oldest weapons and using them on steel path alone as a sort of experiment, and my god it's painful. It should be noted that I wasn't using any special buffs or specific loadouts aside from mods since having to do that already kinda shows there's an issue. I was testing them on their own for comparison purposes. I think the reality is that we're also facing multiple problems here with armor DR even after the s-curve scaling changes. It's certainly doable, but the amount of time I'm just sitting there pounding bullets into a single enemy is crazy

Yup , pretty much , there are like still dozens old primary and secondaries that need urgent buffs 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb CharcoalNuggets:

 I think the ammo nerf will work to make AOE weapons less spammy,

since when can you spam with bramma?!
it's only SOMEHOW playable with sp arcane and carrier. And even then I run out of ammo very quickly...

almost all aoe weapons are a bad joke. because either there is no damage or there are other problems.

And that's what happens when you don't play your own game and briefly test weapons against normal lvl 30 opponents...

[0_The_F00l]

5 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

since when can you spam with bramma?!

Ever since ammo mutation existed , so always.

5 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

it's only SOMEHOW playable with sp arcane and carrier. And even then I run out of ammo very quickly...

SP arcane makes it better , carrier is not needed if you use any other ammo mutation mod.

7 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

almost all aoe weapons are a bad joke. because either there is no damage or there are other problems.

Depends on which weapon you are talking about , or you have no idea how to mod them well if it's one of the top tier ones.

9 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

And that's what happens when you don't play your own game and briefly test weapons against normal lvl 30 opponents...

And you say that on the basis of ... What exactly ? A spy cam hidden in the DE employees place of work ?

[Dunkelheit]

Am 29.8.2022 um 21:14 schrieb _LotusPrime_:

I adressed your argument and didnt ignore it. 

 

You are looking for a dps race in a public matchmaking, that is not why most people do pubs, as, simple as, that 

 

If you dont like what i say, you dont like what i say, but dont lie because i exactly gave a fair counter argument, alright? 

 

Is it hard to be level headed in these forums or what, you post something on forums, someone adresses it, you dont like the way oerson adreesses to your initial post and then you say the person didnt adress it.... If you dont rxpect a possible counter response i dont know what to say

Ok, since you are so sincere, let me answer this:

I am not looking for a DPS race, I want to show you how oppresive and disruptive the gameplay is. Hence I take a Bramma and show you that, no matter what you pick, won't get a lot of kills up to a point that you are feeling useless in the mission. And tbh, the feeling is true, because if one guy uses a Bramma/Zarr, noone else in the group needs to do anything.

And I have expressed that point in a lot of postings adressed to you and I have seen others adress this as well. This is why I no longer want to discuss with you. I don't want to ruin your version of "fun", but Bramma/Zarr meta is ruining the fun for everyone else to a point where you just run to the exit to finish the mission. And this is not coop, this is solo with obstacles called teammates.

Honestly, if everyone loving that meta so much and seems to not be able to live without it would have played solo, noone would have adressed that problem. But what is the meta-defenders best advice? "play solo, lmao, then you can play as you want".

But the decision is already made, I am sorry that you feel so awful about it, but I can tell you, this is not the first nerf in Warframe nor in all the games. And life will go on.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb 0_The_F00l:

Ever since ammo mutation existed , so always.

SP arcane makes it better , carrier is not needed if you use any other ammo mutation mod.

Depends on which weapon you are talking about , or you have no idea how to mod them well if it's one of the top tier ones.

And you say that on the basis of ... What exactly ? A spy cam hidden in the DE employees place of work ?

I won't respond to that dude anymore, you are just talking any more. But his answers alone show that he is either not that experienced as he is describing in numerous postings here on the forums or he is using Lies, Strawmans and Gaslighting to get his point across.

There is only one single thing that might make me run out of ammo: If I shoot Bramma against a stationary void angel in Steel Path.

[0_The_F00l]

27 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

I won't respond to that dude anymore, you are just talking any more. But his answers alone show that he is either not that experienced as he is describing in numerous postings here on the forums or he is using Lies, Strawmans and Gaslighting to get his point across.

There is only one single thing that might make me run out of ammo: If I shoot Bramma against a stationary void angel in Steel Path.

I think the person in question feels that repeating half truths and spouting whole nonsense enough times will make others believe him.

This is not the first time I have spoken to such a person , and almost always they tend to confuse people ignoring them as acknowledging them.

I like to be clear so there is no doubt, and i have plenty of patience for tolerating such people , so each time they do spout rubbish i will call it rubbish.

[_LotusPrime_]

51 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

 

I am not looking for a DPS race

You are tho , even after reading your post unbiased , calmly , youre stilllooking for a dps race
 

 

51 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

how oppresive and disruptive 

same words and i asked before ... to whom they are oppressive and why , the answer is if the person out of nowhere outside of finishing the goal of the mission , if they are fixated on some sort of dps race
 

 

53 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

. Hence I take a Bramma and show you that, no matter what you pick, won't get a lot of kills up to a point that you are feeling useless in the mission. And tbh, the feeling is true, because if one guy uses a Bramma/Zarr, noone else in the group needs to do anything.

First its not true that 'Theres nothing left' because sometimes people kinda forget to  move the mobile defense key and sometimes they get absorbed too much in killing enemies in disruption that they ignore demolish marching towars conduits , so i dont agree on that 

SEcond , i told you before , i don't care about 'won't get lot of kills' its a pub match , most people are there to level up or get the new loot or relic and get out. I also told this before.
 

 

56 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

 

Honestly, if everyone loving that meta so much and seems to not be able to live without it would have played solo, noone would have adressed that problem. But what is the meta-defenders best advice? "play solo, lmao, then you can play as you want".

 

People wouldnt care much , killing enemies one by one is a chore that you need to kill dozens of them is boring , launchers make fissures go faster , in eso people dont even use launchers or in tridolons (okay necramechs an exception but witgout it people were doing just fine with volt and a sniper) 

As much as you like to think launchers 'disrupt' pubs , half the time its not even the case , if youre only referring to fissures then maaaaaaaaybe and thats maybe.

---

I dont care about a single whatever nerf ,  i care about the approach 

[Dunkelheit]

vor einer Stunde schrieb _LotusPrime_:

You are tho , even after reading your post unbiased , calmly , youre stilllooking for a dps race
 

 

same words and i asked before ... to whom they are oppressive and why , the answer is if the person out of nowhere outside of finishing the goal of the mission , if they are fixated on some sort of dps race
 

 

First its not true that 'Theres nothing left' because sometimes people kinda forget to  move the mobile defense key and sometimes they get absorbed too much in killing enemies in disruption that they ignore demolish marching towars conduits , so i dont agree on that 

SEcond , i told you before , i don't care about 'won't get lot of kills' its a pub match , most people are there to level up or get the new loot or relic and get out. I also told this before.
 

 

People wouldnt care much , killing enemies one by one is a chore that you need to kill dozens of them is boring , launchers make fissures go faster , in eso people dont even use launchers or in tridolons (okay necramechs an exception but witgout it people were doing just fine with volt and a sniper) 

As much as you like to think launchers 'disrupt' pubs , half the time its not even the case , if youre only referring to fissures then maaaaaaaaybe and thats maybe.

---

I dont care about a single whatever nerf ,  i care about the approach 

I have an idea:

Maybe running around doing nothing and carrying the key for mobile defense is super exciting for you, but not for other people? Maybe people play a shooter to actually shoot things?

So trying to shoot  things in a shooter does not work for me, because there is that one guy who instantly deletes everything on the map should be ok for everyone?

And you don't like the approach?

Sorry, but I really don't want to talk to you anymore, because I see not the slightest attempt to understand my perspective. And the worst is, I think you are intelligent/emphatic enough to see my point, but you just don't want to.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb _LotusPrime_:

SEcond , i told you before , i don't care about 'won't get lot of kills' its a pub match , most people are there to level up or get the new loot or relic and get out. I also told this before.

People wouldnt care much , killing enemies one by one is a chore that you need to kill dozens of them is boring , launchers make fissures go faster , in eso people dont even use launchers or in tridolons (okay necramechs an exception but witgout it people were doing just fine with volt and a sniper) 

As much as you like to think launchers 'disrupt' pubs , half the time its not even the case , if youre only referring to fissures then maaaaaaaaybe and thats maybe.
---
I dont care about a single whatever nerf ,  i care about the approach 

number of kills in useless statistics? that's a good joke!
especially many are not mr32 and they want exp. if the weapon doesn't do much damage, then i'm dependent on other players.

i have never had a complaint about aoe weapon in game and i have played more than 3k hours.
I don't even know how to do it...

but I imagine it like this:
someone gets fewer kills in stats after a great 5 minute mission and angrily exits the game with alt+f4. then he cries for hours and cannot sleep the whole night. in the morning he writes a hateful post about "nerf X". and of course he's right! because this is such an epic tragedy!

 

[0_The_F00l]

3 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

number of kills in useless statistics? that's a good joke!
especially many are not mr32 and they want exp. if the weapon doesn't do much damage, then i'm dependent on other players.

i have never had a complaint about aoe weapon in game and i have played more than 3k hours.
I don't even know how to do it...

but I imagine it like this:
someone gets fewer kills in stats after a great 5 minute mission and angrily exits the game with alt+f4. then he cries for hours and cannot sleep the whole night. in the morning he writes a hateful post about "nerf X". and of course he's right! because this is such an epic tragedy!

 

Oh yes , a much more epic tragedy than whatever it is that you are crying about.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 3 horas, Dunkelheit dijo:

I have an idea:

Maybe running around doing nothing and carrying the key for mobile defense is super exciting for you, but not for other people? Maybe people play a shooter to actually shoot things?

So trying to shoot  things in a shooter does not work for me, because there is that one guy who instantly deletes everything on the map should be ok for everyone?

And you don't like the approach?

Sorry, but I really don't want to talk to you anymore, because I see not the slightest attempt to understand my perspective. And the worst is, I think you are intelligent/emphatic enough to see my point, but you just don't want to.

His argument is always the same. ''I don't like this nerf because I don't like it and that's it''
It doesn't matter how we reason with these people, they don't care about logical reasons, much or less a healthy balance for the game, the only important thing for these people is that they can blow up everything without knowing how to play in the first place.

[(PSN)Mister_Sicky]

On 2022-08-29 at 11:47 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

Did you read what you wrote?

It's exactky what I meant , you are no longer enjoying warframe as a whole , the recent plans just gives you a reason to vent , you don't really care about the changes by the looks of it.

No I enjoy playing but much like any game if I work my butt off to get everything just the way I want it why would I think it's fine to just take it away or make it worthless.

Think about it this way.  You create a character on a sports game and get it top tier and suddenly after hours of playing they delete it or make it meaningless so you have to start all over again.  No thanks.