Revenant is getting buffed to become unkillable again!

[Leqesai]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

If that change does happen it makes zero sense to omit it in these cases.

The same problem exists but it's just narrowed down to where the community is pushed to a select few warframes that skirt around the problem.

It's a purposed change but if it does happen It's logical to also assume this change is also apart of it. I wouldn't discount it considering it was literally one of the first potential changes they listed off.

And omitting abilities like Mesmer Skin etc isn't healthy or addressing the issue fully. If you address it you have to do it across the board vs just 1 mod. The result is pretty clear to see if they don't apply it.

https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2016/04/24/association-fallacy/

Just because they're discussing changes to Primed Sure Footed does not mean they're proposing changes to abilities that negate stagger. Again, this is why I asked for you to share evidence to support your claim. If you have hard evidence to support them proposing the changes you're suggesting that's one thing. What you're doing is something different.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

19 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2016/04/24/association-fallacy/

Just because they're discussing changes to Primed Sure Footed does not mean they're proposing changes to abilities that negate stagger. Again, this is why I asked for you to share evidence to support your claim. If you have hard evidence to support them proposing the changes you're suggesting that's one thing. What you're doing is something different.

It's a safe assumption. Why even go through changing PSF then if your not going to do this along with it?

It's completely rational to think this. Because your not fixing the problem really at this point. Your just shifting a PSF meta to an ability meta and your not really accomplishing anything.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

It's a safe assumption. Why even go through changing PSF then if your not going to do this along with it?

It's completely rational to think this. Because your not fixing the problem really at this point. Your just shifting a PSF meta to an ability meta and your not really accomplishing anything.

Because then you have to use a nonmeta frame to abuse AoE. Rn, everyone uses wisp, protea, and Wukong who are not equipped with immunity to stagger in their abilities. If they use helminth to ignore stagger, they no longer can subsume anything else, like dispensary or energized munitions. 

So out of those three only protea can still mindlessly abuse AoE and ignore the ammo nerf.

Now in terms of tank frames, ignoring AoE stagger would be a big bonus to them because nobody else could do it, making them even more meta than being hard to kill, as they would still have the abusive playstyle of AoE. 

If course, those frames typically don't have big damage AoE abilities, making it a lot more balanced.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

Also of note when Revenant receives this change:

Styanax will be available to everyone. His #3rd ability Rally Point not only provides energy to teammates but also grants Shields on kills and Assists.

Which just plays right into his passive which also feed into his passive granting more Crit Chance being based on his shields and overshields.

So I think when Veilbreaker drops I'd argue Styanax+ Pilliage is going to be an insane setup. It's a more active and compelling way to play compared to either Inaros and Revenant. 

 

Since when was Styanax a tank frame? Equinox has the same ability and look how tanky she is... 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Since when was Styanax a tank frame? Equinox has the same ability and look how tanky she is... 

A Hoplite/Spartan themed warframe that isn't a tank? The gameplay showed he had at least 1850 shields and generally for reveals these are unmodded stats.

Considering his passive is based off shields/overshields I'd make the safe bet he's some kind of shield tank. Not to mention his 3rd ability.

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Now in terms of tank frames, ignoring AoE stagger would be a big bonus to them because nobody else could do it, making them even more meta than being hard to kill, as they would still have the abusive playstyle of AoE. 

Which is why they'll likely want to avoid it. It makes sense to do it from every angle when they said that they don't want to completely make it usable.

But having a select set of warframes that excel with it is also something they'd really like to avoid. Your just creating a shift more then actually fixing the problem.

[Leqesai]

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

It's a safe assumption. Why even go through changing PSF then if your not going to do this along with it?

It's completely rational to think this. Because your not fixing the problem really at this point. Your just shifting a PSF meta to an ability meta and your not really accomplishing anything.

It is not rational to assume based on false logic. The way you're connecting the dots here is not logical. 

Take the tin-foil hat off and come back to the subject once the changes you believe are coming actually come, so you can let the development team know why the changes do/don't meet your expectations.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

A Hoplite/Spartan themed warframe that isn't a tank? Really?

Considering his passive is based off shields/overshields I'd make the safe bet he's some kind of shield tank. Not to mention his 3rd ability.

Which is why they'll likely want to avoid it. It makes sense to do it from every angle when they said that they don't want to completely make it usable.

But having a select set of warframes that excel with it is also something they'd really like to avoid. Your just creating a shift more then actually fixing the problem. 

No I'm not because as I said, tank frames don't do as much damage. 

People don't see a need to tank if they can spam shield gate. 

So in reality, we have unkillable saryn with ability vs unkillable Revenant with rocket launcher (which if you were paying attention, AoE would potentially get a line of sight nerf with the supposed sure footed nerf). 

Therefore you are basically choosing extra survivability or extra damage through walls.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

8 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It is not rational to assume based on false logic. The way you're connecting the dots here is not logical. 

Take the tin-foil hat off and come back to the subject once the changes you believe are coming actually come, so you can let the development team know why the changes do/don't meet your expectations.

If you don't  want to make the assumption that DE either:

1) Apply it if they decide to go through with or 

2) Make the change after they see the data reflected in usage

Then that's downright being naive. If it moves toward this direction then changes will eventually happen.

[Leqesai]

24 minutes ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

If you don't  want to make the assumption that DE either:

1) Apply it if they decide to go through with or 

2) Make the change after they see the data reflected in usage

Then that's downright being naive. If it moves toward this direction then changes will eventually happen.

It isn't naive to avoid making baseless assumptions...

[Tiltskillet]

40 minutes ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

It's a safe assumption. Why even go through changing PSF then if your not going to do this along with it?

It's completely rational to think this.

It's completely rational to think it's a possibility.  It's also completely rational to think it possibly doesn't happen that way when DE had the opportunity but didn't mention anything else in the stream.

Either one is plausible; both are just guesses.  I'm inclined to believe that no mention of self-stagger immunity from abilities was just an accidental omission in comments that were necessarily brief.   But I won't be surprised if I'm wrong.  (If they ever address self stagger immunity at all, which I wouldn't place more than 50/50 odds on.)

 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

13 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It isn't naive to avoid making baseless assumptions...

I wouldn't think so. If it happens....at least I won't be surprised.

Or upset.

[0_The_F00l]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Since when was Styanax a tank frame? Equinox has the same ability and look how tanky she is... 

Did someone say Equinox ?

(Compares abilities ) 

Equinox has channeled energy cost associated with her mend (and an additional cost per enemy in the radius if her 3 is active as well), while styanax has energy regen over a fixed duration.

Styanax has the better ability purely if you compare mend and rally.

Equinox also is much more complex overall so while the comparison is not really wrong , there is a reason why equinox has it harder.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

And yet Revenant still isn't a very popular frame. Inaros Prime is used more (I wonder why 🤔) 

Rhino has aged poorly I agree but I'm still picking him over Revenant just because Roar exists. ⁸But then in this case, I'd also pick Nezah over Rhina so this is neither here or there. Point is: I'm taking either of these warframes over Revenant.

And Hildryn

And Inaros

Or Lavos as you pointed out 

Or even Nyx.

And now Styanax will exist with these changes coming out. And guess what? 

I'm picking him too. Even with this change which is a good change I'd take any of them over Revenant.

Because Inaros has a low skill ceiling, is a very simple frame to pick up and play etc. That isnt the same as being the best at something.

And if you take either of those frames over Rev for tanking you probably havent played Rev outside of reaching 30. Lavos that I absolutely love, which became my replacement for Rev still doesnt have the tanking that Rev did. At a certain point he will get 2-shot. Rev's only drawback was the introduction of the massive density in Steel Path versus the ranged factions, but since that will be solved with the changes he will be back on top. And if you pick Rhino for Roar you should probably look into subsuming Roar on some other frame that invests in strength, since you really dont need the higher damage buff that normal Roar provides. Lavos is my Rhino, insane strength, insane range, meaning I buff myself and everything else within 50 meters or so with a respectable buff while also knocking all enemies flat on their hiney, leaving them with a forced puncture debuff aswell due to the augment. Which also gives #4 a free status to scale with. Sure Rev wont be as group friendly with his Roar if subsumed, but it will still provide a respectable damage buff to him that helps his #3 and #4 greatly along with whatever weapons he use. It will just have baseline range and duration.

So you rather play Nyx with a kit that practically does nothing outside of tanking if the augment is slotted? An augment that also severely limits her movement, meaning required operator use, which gives downtime on damage. Seems more and more like you never touched Rev at all. Because he is practically Nyx without any drawbacks, with added movement potential and an AoE clear skill.

[Tiltskillet]

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

21 hours ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

And yet Revenant still isn't a very popular frame. Inaros Prime is used more (I wonder why 🤔)

Expand  

Because Inaros has a low skill ceiling, is a very simple frame to pick up and play etc.

Also easier to get, especially before the Sentient core standing boosts.  (Which only happened toward the end of 2021 if Rels is looking at the released usage stats.)

And primed, so even easier until he was vaulted a month ago, and still cheap now.  As well as drawing players that prefer to minimize their investments into non-primes.

Of course, the intimation that one prime is obviously a better tank than another because it's more popular is...problematic, to put it kindly.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Of course, the intimation that one prime is obviously a better tank than another because it's more popular is...problematic, to put it kindly.

I mean just look at Wukong Prime. If anything it's just gravitating to the things that require the least amount of effort. Which is probably also why you see Inaros also being more popular, you can be extremely lazy.

 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you rather play Nyx with a kit that practically does nothing outside of tanking if the augment is slotted? An augment that also severely limits her movement, meaning required operator use, which gives downtime on damage. Seems more and more like you never touched Rev at all. Because he is practically Nyx without any drawbacks, with added movement potential and an AoE clear skill.

Oh I've used Rev. But my Nyx build just gets more things done. Even with the limitations I'm taking it over Rev. 

I've used Rev but generally anything he brings overall there's other options available that require less effort or investment. And every time I use him I'm left with this feeling.

I mean at this point were just arguing taste. I'm just not a fan, which is perfectly fine.

Am I going to check him out when Veilbreaker drops again? Absolutely I want to see personally how it works out. But I also feel like my usage won't move very much either afterwards.

[DeadVoid118]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

Oh I've used Rev. But my Nyx build just gets more things done. Even with the limitations I'm taking it over Rev. 

I've used Rev but generally anything he brings overall there's other options available that require less effort or investment. And every time I use him I'm left with this feeling.

I mean at this point were just arguing taste. I'm just not a fan, which is perfectly fine.

Am I going to check him out when Veilbreaker drops again? Absolutely I want to see personally how it works out. But I also feel like my usage won't move very much either afterwards.

This very much sounds to me like someone who doesn't understand Revenant. I don't see how he requires tons of investment or effort, especially not more than Nyx of all frames.

It's fine and fair if you prefer Nyx, but I would never say Nyx requires less investment than Revenant.

To be fair, the Overguard stuff really changed things, and I can understand if most of someone's experience with Revenant is post-Eximus changes. But, that should be fixed soon. I definitely recommend trying him out again after the changes.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

Oh I've used Rev. But my Nyx build just gets more things done. Even with the limitations I'm taking it over Rev. 

I've used Rev but generally anything he brings overall there's other options available that require less effort or investment. And every time I use him I'm left with this feeling.

I mean at this point were just arguing taste. I'm just not a fan, which is perfectly fine.

Am I going to check him out when Veilbreaker drops again? Absolutely I want to see personally how it works out. But I also feel like my usage won't move very much either afterwards.

Nyx has an energy drain tho. That means she can't use half of the main energy gaining methods, like Zenurik and energy pads. 

So explain how she is easier to mod for a new player than revenant (who only requires power strength to function.)

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)RelsWhisper said:

I mean just look at Wukong Prime. If anything it's just gravitating to the things that require the least amount of effort. Which is probably also why you see Inaros also being more popular, you can be extremely lazy.

 

That doesn't mean they are better at tanking, the usage rate is more about Wukong and Inaros being better for steel path and low duration arbitrations. 

When we are talking about the best frames for tanking, we are specifically referring to frames who can last the longest absorbing incredibly high amounts of damage.

Very different from best tank overall in which things like convenience, difficulty in acquiring, and secondary utility all take a part I'm determining.

[George_PPS]

On 2022-08-31 at 9:52 PM, George_PPS said:

Ahhhhhh!  SHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! Stop commenting and let this post sink!!! Or “you know the thing” will happen ! 

Why are people still replying to the thread??? You all want the next "balance" targeting anything that has high survivability? Keep this thread up and up and that will become the next complaints of players who like to find faults of any powers. 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

13 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Why are people still replying to the thread??? You all want the next "balance" targeting anything that has high survivability? Keep this thread up and up and that will become the next complaints of players who like to find faults of any powers. 

Hello, thank you for replying to the thread, it is now at the top of "general discussion" as it is anytime someone responds to it.

[Tiltskillet]

34 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

49 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Why are people still replying to the thread??? You all want the next "balance" targeting anything that has high survivability? Keep this thread up and up and that will become the next complaints of players who like to find faults of any powers. 

Hello, thank you for replying to the thread, it is now at the top of "general discussion" as it is anytime someone responds to it.

Yeah, people.  Stop replying to the thread--we want it to disappear from page 1.

Please reply "Stop the thread bump!" or "Together, we can stop this train!" or "Upl0rdYT will be defeated!" if you agree.  I will be sure to do so periodically as well. 

 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yeah, people.  Stop replying to the thread--we want it to disappear from page 1.

Please reply "Stop the thread bump!" or "Together, we can stop this train!" or "Upl0rdYT will be defeated!" if you agree.  I will be sure to do so periodically as well. 

 

Then please tell RelsWhisper that "best tank overall' is not equal to "best tank."

Oh and an fyi, I finally started building my Garuda prime so expect a thread about her in a few days. I've seriously been looking forward to her for multiple reasons I will be sharing in that post.

[Tiltskillet]

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

 

Oh and an fyi, I finally started building my Garuda prime so expect a thread about her in a few days. I've seriously been looking forward to her for multiple reasons I will be sharing in that post.

tl;dr: "Garuda is WTFBBQOP" ? :P

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

tl;dr: "Garuda is WTFBBQOP" ? :P

She better be BBQ OP