Supplementing Adaptation's Fickle Nature: More Defensive Mods for Modern Damage Environments - Suggestions

[CrownOfShadows]

Born out of a frustration with Adaptation's inconsistent nature, here are some suggestions I dreamed up for more reliable defenses. The goal here is not to power creep our defenses (although some of these suggestions do that because I got carried away) but rather to make our defenses more consistent. Some of these are meant to be mutually exclusive with Adaptation and with each other.

Some of these require more explanation. For now I'll just detail the way this Aura set is supposed to work: they don't apply to the whole team, but only to someone with an aura in the set mod. They also don't stack - two United Ramparts provide no more benefit than one. The basic idea is that if you have a 3000 hp Grendel on your team and you both have an aura in this set and you have like 300hp, you'll average your collective health such that you will both end up with like 1-2k (didn't actually crunch the math - that's just the idea).

Anyways, hit me with your thoughts and if you have any favorites or other ideas.

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by CrownOfShadows
Split into categories, updates to many of the numbers, mechanics and descriptions. Added Welter Set, Rapid Kit, Triumvirate, Attrition's Bite, Emaciation

[Pakaku]

Excess affinity to something non-exp related is an interesting idea, I'll give it that

[DrBorris]

It may not be the elegant solution, but adding more ways for us to "power-creep" our defenses through customization to counter the ever increasing enemy damage has a fair bit of potential. The problem I see this raising is it becoming too restrictive to our Warframe builds, I'd hate to see Warframe builds see the same homogenization that weapons builds have seen. 

I kinda like this idea. Make lemonade out of lemons, take the broken enemy scaling and use it as an opportunity for new customization/gameplay diversity.

Edited October 17, 2022 by DrBorris

[dwqrf]

While I do enjoy the display of imagination and the hard work to create all these mods, I think they are too strong, too weak, too situationnal, or overall too many. Imagine a build using most of those mods ! Having only a "few" defensive options will surely force a meta, between adaptation and rolling guard, but that's limited. Too many strong defensive options will let people build too tanky and ignore the spell casting for even more aoe weapons. 

 

While those mods are great in the actual meta ; my opinion to adjust the damage vs resistance meta would be to reduce all damage reduction to a cap of 50%, not allowing damage reduction to stack with each others (max : 50%, from all sources, spells, mods, etc), using just Armor as a second damage reduction on health only.

If enemies damage would also be nerfed down and scale more linearly, I believe that would work, and give less reason to abuse stacking damage reduction mecanics from spells, immortality, or Shield gating exploit.

This approach would be a nerf to overtanks and a buff for squishy, balancing the game, but nobody like nerfs...

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by dwqrf

[quxier]

Desperation Howl/Cloak -> 20 seconds cooldown is not consistent
Ennervating Blade -> armor per attack seems interesting, does it works with combo (and releated) mods?
Siege Breaker -> what is "surrounded"? 2 meters, 5 meters? and 17 opponents sounds like Infested or SP.
Anti Corpus/Infested/Grineer - 35% resistance is small
Insidious faith -> so you need to take 5x 30+% WHILE NOT DYING to get 3  sec invulnerability below 25%? Rolling guard makes it at each roll + cooldown. Then "insidious" stacks probably are removed after "3 sec invulnerability window" making it not very useful
Courageous faith -> sounds nice, not sure about values (too small?)
Starved Leech -> Sounds amazing... I would need to test it
Ghost shield -> sounds useful alternative to Quick thinking.

Deep Resolve -> so I have to die to get 10% damage resistance? I need other mods so... no thank you.
Prophet's Fear -> useless? In 20 seconds I think I will get any damage that current mission do.
Primed isolation -> solo player say hi :D
Primed Resistances -> does anyone uses that? When I want resistance I want all not single type.

 

[CrownOfShadows]

15 hours ago, quxier said:

Desperation Howl/Cloak -> 20 seconds cooldown is not consistent
Ennervating Blade -> armor per attack seems interesting, does it works with combo (and releated) mods?
Siege Breaker -> what is "surrounded"? 2 meters, 5 meters? and 17 opponents sounds like Infested or SP.
Anti Corpus/Infested/Grineer - 35% resistance is small
Insidious faith -> so you need to take 5x 30+% WHILE NOT DYING to get 3  sec invulnerability below 25%? Rolling guard makes it at each roll + cooldown. Then "insidious" stacks probably are removed after "3 sec invulnerability window" making it not very useful
Courageous faith -> sounds nice, not sure about values (too small?)
Starved Leech -> Sounds amazing... I would need to test it
Ghost shield -> sounds useful alternative to Quick thinking.

Deep Resolve -> so I have to die to get 10% damage resistance? I need other mods so... no thank you.
Prophet's Fear -> useless? In 20 seconds I think I will get any damage that current mission do.
Primed isolation -> solo player say hi :D
Primed Resistances -> does anyone uses that? When I want resistance I want all not single type.

 

Desperation Howl/Cloak - wdym, it's too long a cooldown you think? Or you'd want a different mechanic than a cooldown?

Ennervating Blade - Ah, you mean it increases with combo multiplier? Hm wasn't thinking that but that's interesting. Sounds good.

Siege Breaker - yeah idk on the range, would need testing of some kind. the number depends heavily on the range too. I was here thinking something like 15 meters but idk. Definitely geared for SP, especially getting caught in floods of enemies without any help

Anti-Faction - I agree they're low... if these are mutually exclusive with Adaptation, in which case I'd buff them to 65%+ for sure. If they can be used together with it then it should be okay, maybe even a bit too high.

Insidious faith - this is designed to create some forgiveness for hp regen builds, where you're taking constant damage to your health. I was experimenting with health gates and gray health and this was the result. I'm not especially happy with it but it's an idea.

Courageous Faith - hmmm maybe, depends what it can stack with I guess. Using it combination with other hp and armor mods seems pretty strong.

Deep Resolve - is designed to make you strong against whatever is killing you. Since we currently have no way to figure out what this is, this might be useful. I was imagining it working with something like Quick Thinking, so you get stacks when Quick Thinking triggers. After 4 deaths you should stop dying. Could boost it to like 25% per stack instead though. There's also a case to be made that some of these could be exilus.

Prophets Fear - is especially designed to work with Adaptation and other resistance mods, making it so you shouldn't die to one shots that you haven't built up any resistances against. So the idea is Prophets Fear keeps you safe when you're first trying to build up resistances to something, and then falls off fast as Adaptation takes over, and then when Adaptation is running it protects you from statuses that lose their stacks, so as Adaptation drops your defenses after having not refreshed a status for 20 seconds, this takes back over.

Primed Isolation - Having other Tenno around is a massive form of DR for multiple reasons, this is designed to help Tenno who wander or play solo, and is for all intents and purposes a superior version of Adaptation.

Primed Resistances - yeah these are largely useless, especially when you consider that Adaptation is basically all of these combined (with a bit of dice roll), but I think it's really weird that we don't have access to them if we want them, and they're here mostly to help round out the arsenal. (although oof the endo). Especially blast damage - as far as I know Adaptation is the only blast resistance in the game.

Edited October 18, 2022 by CrownOfShadows

[Frendh]

Survivability is easy with the current shield gating. There is no reason to make frames even tankier.

If shield gating is removed, then some of this can be considered.

[CrownOfShadows]

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

or overall too many. Imagine a build using most of those mods ! Having only a "few" defensive options will surely force a meta, between adaptation and rolling guard, but that's limited. Too many strong defensive options will let people build too tanky and ignore the spell casting for even more aoe weapons

Well, basically I want alternatives to Adaptation. Having a dozen+ choices, especially if they are mutually exclusive, seems like it would be great for build diversity.

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

While those mods are great in the actual meta ; my opinion to adjust the damage vs resistance meta would be to reduce all damage reduction to a cap of 50%, not allowing damage reduction to stack with each others (max : 50%, from all sources, spells, mods, etc), using just Armor as a second damage reduction on health only.

If enemies damage would also be nerfed down and scale more linearly, I believe that would work, and give less reason to abuse stacking damage reduction mecanics from spells, immortality, or Shield gating exploit.

This approach would be a nerf to overtanks and a buff for squishy, balancing the game, but nobody like nerfs...

You're probably right - a major overhaul of damage scaling and enemy scaling would help smooth out balancing... and eliminate a lot of the ridiculous stuff. I think that's probably too much work for DE to consider though, like you'd have to change so much stuff, from all the multipliers and crits and ability DR and augments and Helminth and ability dmg boosts and hp and armor scaling and arcanes - it's a rebalance of the entire game.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Well, basically I want alternatives to Adaptation. Having a dozen+ choices, especially if they are mutually exclusive, seems like it would be great for build diversity.

You're probably right - a major overhaul of damage scaling and enemy scaling would help smooth out balancing... and eliminate a lot of the ridiculous stuff. I think that's probably too much work for DE to consider though, like you'd have to change so much stuff, from all the multipliers and crits and ability DR and augments and Helminth and ability dmg boosts and hp and armor scaling and arcanes - it's a rebalance of the entire game.

While true, I was just talking about enemy damage vs our own resistance.

[CrownOfShadows]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

While true, I was just talking about enemy damage vs our own resistance.

Ah I see, you just meant specifically resistance numbers, like you wouldn't want Adaptation to stack past 50% - hmm... idk... even at 90% we take some tremendous damage.

We've got like 5 layers of defense overall: Ability DR, Shields + Resistances (& shield gate), Resistances, HP+Armor, Lethal Damage savers (quick thinking & stuff like rolling guard). I guess operator would be a 6th. Unfortunately resistances directly affect two lines of our defense.

If I had a choice I'd give us all more HP instead of resistances though, just so we could actually see the damage coming in. Right now we only feel it when all our defenses fail and when that happens it hits hard.

[dwqrf]

il y a 40 minutes, CrownOfShadows a dit :

If I had a choice I'd give us all more HP instead of resistances though, just so we could actually see the damage coming in. Right now we only feel it when all our defenses fail and when that happens it hits hard.

Yes, that's right, a Inaros with 10,000 HP has less EHP than Baruuk with 300 HP but 99.8% DR. The insane amount of stackable DR forces the devs to put insane amount of damage from enemies expecting you to use one, or many, tools to mitigate it, being a nightmare for those without these tools (players or warframes), or a breeze for those stacking DR or cheesing it.

Adding a cap to max DR from all source, to something less game breaking than 90%, (we could agree on some value between 10% and 50%), not including Armor, would give a chance to those who dont have those tools or would rather use Armor, life quantity, or the death cheats mods.

Having 90% DR from spell, + 90% DR from mods, + Armor, is too much.

Of course, enemy damage need to be scaled down to.

[PeridosPrime]

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

Survivability is easy with the current shield gating. There is no reason to make frames even tankier.

If shield gating is removed, then some of this can be considered.

You missed the point of these mods. 
OP’s suggesting new mods not because we need more survivability, but because we want more build diversity… just for fun. 

Like duh we already survive well enough with what we have now but most of our core survivability mods are just stat-increases with no interesting mechanics. Of course there are interesting mods like Carnis, Gladiator, and few Warframe augments but why not ask for more? 

[DrBorris]

2 hours ago, Frendh said:

Survivability is easy with the current shield gating. There is no reason to make frames even tankier.

If shield gating is removed, then some of this can be considered.

This makes no sense.

If shield gating is already good survivability, what would be wrong with more options? I assume you don't believe these options will be superior to shield gating, so these ideas exist as alternative for those people who don't want to deal with the high maintenance gameplay of shield gate builds. These things won't make someone using shield gating properly tankier because that person is already effectively invincible.

If shield gating was removed then it would make more sense to say these mods are too powerful and no "mandatory" for you to play. 

 

Also all of these replies nit-picking the balance of the mods are wild. Not to speak for the OP, but I don't think that's the point. What we are looking at here is a (very extensive) brain-storming session. All that matters here are the broad strokes, personally I love to see the good, bad, and ugly of someone's brain-storm because sometimes one person's bad idea can inspire another person's good idea. 

The more I've thought about it, the more I like this idea at its core. While it sounds nice to "simply" fix enemy damage scaling, I think this actually might be the better choice for the game as it adds some good flavor to the defensive modding of Warframes. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by DrBorris

[DeadVoid118]

11 hours ago, dwqrf said:

While I do enjoy the display of imagination and the hard work to create all these mods, I think they are too strong, too weak, too situationnal, or overall too many. Imagine a build using most of those mods ! Having only a "few" defensive options will surely force a meta, between adaptation and rolling guard, but that's limited. Too many strong defensive options will let people build too tanky and ignore the spell casting for even more aoe weapons. 

 

While those mods are great in the actual meta ; my opinion to adjust the damage vs resistance meta would be to reduce all damage reduction to a cap of 50%, not allowing damage reduction to stack with each others (max : 50%, from all sources, spells, mods, etc), using just Armor as a second damage reduction on health only.

If enemies damage would also be nerfed down and scale more linearly, I believe that would work, and give less reason to abuse stacking damage reduction mecanics from spells, immortality, or Shield gating exploit.

This approach would be a nerf to overtanks and a buff for squishy, balancing the game, but nobody like nerfs...

 

I don't like this idea, it would require a stupid amount of rebalancing. You've got Shield-gating, and Iron Skin, and Mesmer Skin. You've got frame-specific invincibilities as well, and even shields gets damage reduction at base.

Look at Nezha. Warding Halo gives 90% damage reduction, and its health scales off armor. It would have to be completely redesigned, as armor and damage reduction are redundant.

This would also just enforce a meta of heal tanks. You can easily get to 50% damage reduction with armor, that's only 300 armor, so either armor calcs need to change or practically any frame just helminths in Gloom. Plus, shields has innate 25% damage reduction and there are surely some ways to abuse that if damage reduction gets so heavily and ridiculously nerfed.

I don't think DE will make such a massive change this late in the game, the current system works well enough.

13 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Born out of a frustration with Adaptation's inconsistent nature, here are some suggestions I dreamed up for more reliable defenses. The goal here is not to power creep our defenses (although some of these suggestions do that because I got carried away) but rather to make our defenses more consistent. Some of these are meant to be mutually exclusive with Adaptation and with each other.

 

Some of these require more explanation. For now I'll just detail the way this Aura set is supposed to work: they don't apply to the whole team, but only to someone with an aura in the set mod. They also don't stack - two United Ramparts provide no more benefit than one. The basic idea is that if you have a 3000 hp Grendel on your team and you both have an aura in this set and you have like 300hp, you'll average your collective health such that you will both end up with like 1-2k (didn't actually crunch the math - that's just the idea).

Anyways, hit me with your thoughts and if you have any favorites or other ideas.

 

All I can say is, I would never use most, if not all, of these mods. A lot of them need to be heavily buffed or combined with multiple other mods here to possibly even begin to be considered by myself as build options. Most of these are terribly niche, and they're not good enough to justify replacing Adaptation even for builds centered on them.

I'm not looking for powercreep but I am looking for alternatives. None of these would be alternatives. These are, dangerously, only things I could slot in after Adaptation, and I don't want to see even more mod slots consumed by trying not to die.

[CrownOfShadows]

49 minutes ago, DeadVoid118 said:

I don't like this idea, it would require a stupid amount of rebalancing. You've got Shield-gating, and Iron Skin, and Mesmer Skin. You've got frame-specific invincibilities as well, and even shields gets damage reduction at base.

Look at Nezha. Warding Halo gives 90% damage reduction, and its health scales off armor. It would have to be completely redesigned, as armor and damage reduction are redundant.

This would also just enforce a meta of heal tanks. You can easily get to 50% damage reduction with armor, that's only 300 armor, so either armor calcs need to change or practically any frame just helminths in Gloom. Plus, shields has innate 25% damage reduction and there are surely some ways to abuse that if damage reduction gets so heavily and ridiculously nerfed.

I don't think DE will make such a massive change this late in the game, the current system works well enough.

All I can say is, I would never use most, if not all, of these mods. A lot of them need to be heavily buffed or combined with multiple other mods here to possibly even begin to be considered by myself as build options. Most of these are terribly niche, and they're not good enough to justify replacing Adaptation even for builds centered on them.

I'm not looking for powercreep but I am looking for alternatives. None of these would be alternatives. These are, dangerously, only things I could slot in after Adaptation, and I don't want to see even more mod slots consumed by trying not to die.

What if I don't want to shield gate, and I don't want to play Nezha or Revenant?

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

15 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

For now I'll just detail the way this Aura set is supposed to work: they don't apply to the whole team, but only to someone with an aura in the set mod. They also don't stack - two United Ramparts provide no more benefit than one. The basic idea is that if you have a 3000 hp Grendel on your team and you both have an aura in this set and you have like 300hp, you'll average your collective health such that you will both end up with like 1-2k (didn't actually crunch the math - that's just the idea).

I have 2 questions about these United mods:

1. Do multiple team mates need the same United Aura mod equipped for the effect to trigger, or will the effect work as long as any United Aura is equipped? Basically, if I have Bulwark and my team mate has Portcullis, will we both gain the effects of both mods?

2. For Rampart and Crenellation, are these pooled totals added to your total combo/health, or do they become the new total combo/health? So if I have max combo (220 hits) and I move into range of an ally who has no combo (0 hits), will I give them 110 combo from my pool to even us out or will they just gain combo at no cost to me?

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I have 2 questions about these United mods:

1. Do multiple team mates need the same United Aura mod equipped for the effect to trigger, or will the effect work as long as any United Aura is equipped? Basically, if I have Bulwark and my team mate has Portcullis, will we both gain the effects of both mods?

2. For Rampart and Crenellation, are these pooled totals added to your total combo/health, or do they become the new total combo/health? So if I have max combo (220 hits) and I move into range of an ally who has no combo (0 hits), will I give them 110 combo from my pool to even us out or will they just gain combo at no cost to me?

1. Yes, you've got it right, as long as you have one of the set you get all the benefits. The idea is you kinda sign up to pool stuff by equipping the set mod, it's like 'hey, let's pool resources, i'm in'. So even if you're running Portcullis and someone else is running Bulwark, you both get the effects of both - both your health/armor/shield is pooled and you both share lethal damage. So it basically is designed to average everyone, so that if the entire team is running this set, then they will all have nearly identical shield/armor/hp (i added 85% efficiency so that it's not perfectly even, you still retain some of your original build). Ideally, you'd all be running different versions to maximize the benefits. In that case, everyone shares lethal damage, combo counters, hp/armor/shields and resistances. Advanced pre-built squads could also choose frames to maximize this if they wanted - like they could bring a Hildryn to give everyone crazy shields, or a Valkyr to give everyone crazy armor. (Open debate if this would give Inaros shields idk, but Inaros for hp). This means you can make custom builds that cheap out on certain things if you know you'll get them from a teammate. That's probably the most power-creepy part of it, but it does require certain frames/mods so it's not totally free, and the exact averaging math obviously has some wiggle room.

2. Yeah the way I was envisioning it they become your new health. The combo would probably need to work slightly different however - instead of averaging everyone's combo it would probably replicate the highest combo to everyone, otherwise there's a really good chance nobody would ever get to full combo (because if someone's not at full, averaging would drag everyone else's combo down). So yeah, in your example, if your friend is at 0 combo, and you are at 12, and he wanders into your affinity range, he instantly has 12 combo. The same mechanic is probably true of resistances, but it might be more balanced to average those - not sure, that requires some deep-think.

A note on Portcullis, idk if it was obvious, but the 70% / 120% there is meant to be: you redirect 70% of your lethal damage to others, but they take 120% of that. So if you are taking let's say 1000 damage, 700 gets redirected and becomes 840 (if i did that math right) which is distributed across the set. So if your other 3 teammates are above 30% hp and are running the aura, they each take 280. This might need to be more like 400% or 600% idk, but it becomes more painful the less people are running it. Like if there's just two of you, that's 840 instead of 280, and if it's 600% the gap widens further. Still, there should be a noticeable cost to run it, we don't really want free immunity.

These are super strong auras on paper (a nice change tbh), and their negatives might need to be boosted or their buffs brought down, but that's kinda stuff you gotta figure out in testing. But it can open up mod slots in builds for other things if you coordinate well. Another note is that running them in a squad where nobody else is running them is a slight bummer, and we may want a universal set bonus that applies in that case so it's not totally useless.

Edited October 18, 2022 by CrownOfShadows

[DeadVoid118]

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

What if I don't want to shield gate, and I don't want to play Nezha or Revenant?

I think you may need to reread my post? I was talking about Revenant and Nezha in regards to someone else and their idea that damage reduction should be capped at 50%.

My issue with yours is that all the mods presented are weak in a bad way. For example, 5 armor per enemy hit with melee for 5 seconds. You would need to hit 60 times just to get 300 armor, all in 5 seconds.Unless the mod refreshes the duration of every stack every hit (in which case there are now other issues), it's a very weak mod that isn't even comparable to a static Umbral Fiber.

[CrownOfShadows]

42 minutes ago, DeadVoid118 said:

I think you may need to reread my post? I was talking about Revenant and Nezha in regards to someone else and their idea that damage reduction should be capped at 50%.

My issue with yours is that all the mods presented are weak in a bad way. For example, 5 armor per enemy hit with melee for 5 seconds. You would need to hit 60 times just to get 300 armor, all in 5 seconds.Unless the mod refreshes the duration of every stack every hit (in which case there are now other issues), it's a very weak mod that isn't even comparable to a static Umbral Fiber.

🙄 Your post was basically: "all your ideas suck and you should just shield gate and shut up" right? Or did I miss something?

[DeadVoid118]

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

🙄 Your post was basically: "all your ideas suck and you should just shield gate and shut up" right? Or did I miss something?

You missed a lot, apparently.

I never brought up nor compared to shield-gating, these extra mods are just bad compared to current survivability mods. They don't replace Adaptation (most of them, anyway), nor do they come close. A good portion of them are worse than slotting in an extra armor or health mod. I'm not saying the idea sucks, I would love more survivability mods I could use instead of Adaptatuon, but the problem is a lot of your suggestions are wildly underpowered.

[CrownOfShadows]

2 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

I never brought up nor compared to shield-gating

Actually you did, maybe you should go reread your own post

2 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

bad compared to current survivability mods

wildly underpowered.

Alright man, I get the sense you scrolled really fast and thought less than 0.5 seconds about any of them. Let me hold your hand through some of these:

1. Siege Breaker is superior to Adaptation because it instantly gives you 90% resistance to everything regardless of whether you've encountered it and without any ramp up time, the only limiting factor being having enough enemies around you. Actually, it probably needs a nerf.
2. Revival Scare may take longer to ramp up, but is also superior because once you have it maxed you have across the board 90% resistances that never fall off and have no condition. This also makes it superior to Adaptation and situationally even better than siege breaker. It too might need a nerf.
3. Plasma Armor for frames that ability spam this is superior to Adaptation because it too gives universal resistances, the only mechanic being using abilities often enough to keep it up. Oh and it prevents you from losing any armor too. In fact, I thought it was so strong I added the decay to balance it out. Depending on the conversion ratio and your efficiency, you could max out your resistances in just a few ability uses.
4. Primed Isolation is also superior to Adaptation. It caps out at 80% instead of 90%, but it comes with guaranteed base resistances. If you don't understand why that's so superior, then you have no understanding of why Adaptation kinda sucks. And it has a bit of status duration, which sure, might benefit from a slight increase, but calculating that is complicated.
5. Sentient Shockweave is designed for people who don't give a sh*t about shields and rely on hp, armor and hp regen. For those people, this is also superior to Adaptation for the same reason as the others: it's universal resistances with a slow, slow decay rate. It's Hunter Adrenaline for resistances.

Well, I'm counting 5 here, all superior choices to Adaptation, all with unique applications. Got a better idea? I'm all ears man. If you come up with something better I'll even add it into the op and credit you if you want.

I suppose you want to talk about the mods that are designed to help out Adaptation: that would be Prophets Fear, Deep Resolve, Prismatic Funnel and Perplexion Armor. The first two are straight bandaids to fix Adaptation. Don't like them? Fine. Fix Adaptation instead then, that's the whole point of them. Perplexion Armor, even though it has no actual resistance numbers, is a form of DR. If you need me to explain why, sigh, I will. How strong is it really? - that would take an all-night math session to figure out. Prismatic Funnel is designed to work with any of the Primed Resistances instead of Adaptation. I'll take a moment to explain why this is so strong for you because I doubt you'll figure it out. Let's say you're playing infested survival. You can equip Prismatic Funnel, tune it to Toxin, and then equip Primed Anti-Toxin and also even the Anti-Toxin aura. See where this is going? It's double DR in that scenario. It might actually be way too strong, you'd take almost no damage, which is why I lowered it from 85% to 65%.

Now let's talk about hp & armor shall we? Armor is not as good as resistances. That's just how the math on armor works. Now before we start, I feel obligated to point out that I nowhere said or even suggested that all these armor mods were mutually exclusive with things like fiber mods. I'm mentioning this because you seem to be assuming this based on what you said about Umbral Fiber. Rather a lot of these are designed to work WITH the existing armor options, not replace them, but a few certainly can;

1. Last Stand is a ridiculously strong mod. Think about how many frames can even reach 2000 armor for a second. Not only that, but it gives you 60% resistances across the board, which is really good especially if it's working with other resistance mods. This is massive double DR. Oh and you get some native hp regen too. It was so strong I thought - 'good golly, better make it less reliable' and put that cooldown on it. It will make even a small amount of hp go a long, long way. Slap it on any weak frame, and you suddenly have a super tank when you need it. Oh and just to mention this so you think about it, you can stack this with things like Arcane Guardian and other armor mods (LIKE UMBRAL FIBER) to put you in the 3.5k 4k armor range.
2. Brawler's Heart: so let's say you have 10 enemies in range. 10x50 = 500. That's 500 armor and 500 hp. Stop and think about what mods you would use to accomplish the same thing. Really. But wait, there's more. You also get 50% resistances out of that. That's better than Adaptation right there (if you understand why Adaptation sucks). But wait, there's more. What if you have 20 enemies in range? That would be 1000 hp and 1000 armor. IDK what kind of a dunce would say that's weak. Oh and that's also 90% universal resistance if we cap it. So guess what? This mod is actually way too strong lol. Because it's better than all the other resistance mods I listed in steps 1-5, if you meet the conditions. But wait. There's more. What if you have 30 enemies in range? Or 50? I'll let you figure out how weak that is. Should probably make this one mutually exclusive with a lot of stuff, and also nerf tf out of it.
3. Ghost Shield: on the subject of overpowered mods, let's talk about ghost shield. As long as you are taking health damage, you basically build up unlimited hp. Now I didn't really spell this out in the description, so that's my bad, but is there a cap? Actually, we should add one, because otherwise this just gives you infinite health lol, especially when you think about hp regen and gloom. How are you feeling about infinite health? Too weak? Anyways, I'd cap it at either 1x -3x your max hp.
4. The Faith Mods, Ennervating Blade and the Anti-Faction Resistance mods are meant as supplemental reinforcement for the tank enthusiast, nothing more. They aren't meant to be god mods or replace Umbral Fiber, but rather be used in addition to them like the saxum and amar sets. So if you want to criticize those, at least do it context. You homed in on Ennervating Blade (the ONE weak mod lmao), fine, it could probably use some stronger numbers. The Anti-Faction mods, as I mentioned with Quxier, could be buffed to be competitive with Adaptation and the other SIX Adaptation competitors, which AHEM would make NINE extremely viable Adaptation alternatives.

What else, oh Howl and Cloak - these are just fun survival tools meant as clutch escape mechanisms for weak frames. If you want god mods, these ain't it either. Oh and the Aura set is probably way too powerful too, especially since you could use it in combination with this stuff.,but I've already spent time detailing those. If you want to talk about the experimental mods too we can.

Edited October 18, 2022 by CrownOfShadows

[DeadVoid118]

3 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Actually you did, maybe you should go reread your own post

Allow me to point out that just prior to the sole mention of shield-gating in my original post I am quoting someone other than you. I didn't bring up shield-gating to you, nor did I compare your mods to shield-gating.

3 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Siege Breaker is superior to Adaptation because it instantly gives you 90% resistance to everything regardless of whether you've encountered it and without any ramp up time, the only limiting factor being having enough enemies around you. Actually, it probably needs a nerf.

16 enemies is a lot and there's no listed range. Good luck getting that many enemies around you and having them not die, not to mention you'll find that even with a 15 meter range it won't activate very often unless you're purposefully throwing yourself in the middle of a ball of enemies. I wouldn't expect a range beyond 30. The issue is the moment you're surrounded by 15 and not 16 you're going to die, because you don't have a whole 90% damage reduction anymore, or even any damage reduction from the mod.

3 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Revival Scare may take longer to ramp up, but is also superior because once you have it maxed you have across the board 90% resistances that never fall off and have no condition. This also makes it superior to Adaptation and situationally even better than siege breaker. It too might need a nerf.

Sure. I did say not all of them were weak at one point, but it does heavily depend on conversion rate. 90% reduction cap doesn't matter if you don't reach it for the whole mission.

3 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Plasma Armor for frames that ability spam this is superior to Adaptation because it too gives universal resistances, the only mechanic being using abilities often enough to keep it up. Oh and it prevents you from losing any armor too. In fact, I thought it was so strong I added the decay to balance it out. Depending on the conversion ratio and your efficiency, you could max out your resistances in just a few ability uses.

It doesn't mention how much that percentage is for conversion, and armor loss is such a rare thing and easily negated with status immunity which any frame can get with Helminth. You would certainly need a huge amount of ability spam to max this out, even ability frames aren't casting every second, and I'm assuming the conversion rate is 50% or something less. Even when maxing it out, unless you're immediately casting again you're immediately dropping in damage reduction, and the difference between 80% damage reduction and 90% is double damage. Enemies do 20% instead of 10%, the higher the damage reduction the more every percentage point matters.

Though, I do agree that again this could be another strong mod, though many things aren't mentioned that could easily murder this.

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Primed Isolation is also superior to Adaptation. It caps out at 80% instead of 90%, but it comes with guaranteed base resistances. If you don't understand why that's so superior, then you have no understanding of why Adaptation kinda sucks. And it has a bit of status duration, which sure, might benefit from a slight increase, but calculating that is complicated.

80% damage reduction means you take 20% damage, which is double the 10% from 90% damage reduction.

Adaptation isn't infallible, of course it has the flaw in its ramping damage reduction. You would take 540% damage to reach 90% damage reduction. This mod requires you not be near any fellow Tenno, which I think is antithetical to a coop game, but regardless, assuming the same rate as Adaptation, requires only 225% to reach 80% damage reduction. Once that damage reduction is reached, you do need a significant amount of attacks from enemies to reach an equilibrium where Adaptation becomes better.

I would agree that this mod is possibly stronger than Adaptation. However, my one critique is that it shouldn't encourage not playing with other people.

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Sentient Shockweave is designed for people who don't give a sh*t about shields and rely on hp, armor and hp regen. For those people, this is also superior to Adaptation for the same reason as the others: it's universal resistances with a slow, slow decay rate. It's Hunter Adrenaline for resistances.

It's 1/100th the build rate, granted from any damage, and decays every second you're not being hit for a max of 75% damage reduction. Remember how Adaptation was 540% damage to get to 90%? Well, hold on to your horses, because this mod blows that out of the water. By the time you get to significant damage reduction, you will have proven you can survive without this mod. That's how bad it is, and that's ignoring the decay or even the idea of a time limit.

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I suppose you want to talk about the mods that are designed to help out Adaptation: that would be Prophets Fear, Deep Resolve, Prismatic Funnel and Perplexion Armor. The first two are straight bandaids to fix Adaptation. Don't like them? Fine. Fix Adaptation instead then, that's the whole point of them. Perplexion Armor, even though it has no actual resistance numbers, is a form of DR. If you need me to explain why, sigh, I will. How strong is it really? - that would take an all-night math session to figure out. Prismatic Funnel is designed to work with any of the Primed Resistances instead of Adaptation. I'll take a moment to explain why this is so strong for you because I doubt you'll figure it out. Let's say you're playing infested survival. You can equip Prismatic Funnel, tune it to Toxin, and then equip Primed Anti-Toxin and also even the Anti-Toxin aura. See where this is going? It's double DR in that scenario. It might actually be way too strong, you'd take almost no damage, which is why I lowered it from 85% to 65%.

Now let's talk about hp & armor shall we? Armor is not as good as resistances. That's just how the math on armor works. Now before we start, I feel obligated to point out that I nowhere said or even suggested that all these armor mods were mutually exclusive with things like fiber mods. I'm mentioning this because you seem to be assuming this based on what you said about Umbral Fiber. Rather a lot of these are designed to work WITH the existing armor options, not replace them, but a few certainly can;

1. Last Stand is a ridiculously strong mod. Think about how many frames can even reach 2000 armor for a second. Not only that, but it gives you 60% resistances across the board, which is really good especially if it's working with other resistance mods. This is massive double DR. Oh and you get some native hp regen too. It was so strong I thought - 'good golly, better make it less reliable' and put that cooldown on it. It will make even a small amount of hp go a long, long way. Slap it on any weak frame, and you suddenly have a super tank when you need it. Oh and just to mention this so you think about it, you can stack this with things like Arcane Guardian and other armor mods (LIKE UMBRAL FIBER) to put you in the 3.5k 4k armor range.
2. Brawler's Heart: so let's say you have 10 enemies in range. 10x50 = 500. That's 500 armor and 500 hp. Stop and think about what mods you would use to accomplish the same thing. Really. But wait, there's more. You also get 50% resistances out of that. That's better than Adaptation right there (if you understand why Adaptation sucks). But wait, there's more. What if you have 20 enemies in range? That would be 1000 hp and 1000 armor. IDK what kind of a dunce would say that's weak. Oh and that's also 90% universal resistance if we cap it. So guess what? This mod is actually way too strong lol. Because it's better than all the other resistance mods I listed in steps 1-5, if you meet the conditions. But wait. There's more. What if you have 30 enemies in range? Or 50? I'll let you figure out how weak that is. Should probably make this one mutually exclusive with a lot of stuff, and also nerf tf out of it.
3. Ghost Shield: on the subject of overpowered mods, let's talk about ghost shield. As long as you are taking health damage, you basically build up unlimited hp. Now I didn't really spell this out in the description, so that's my bad, but is there a cap? Actually, we should add one, because otherwise this just gives you infinite health lol, especially when you think about hp regen and gloom. How are you feeling about infinite health? Too weak? Anyways, I'd cap it at either 1x -3x your max hp.
4. The Faith Mods, Ennervating Blade and the Anti-Faction Resistance mods are meant as supplemental reinforcement for the tank enthusiast, nothing more. They aren't meant to be god mods or replace Umbral Fiber, but rather be used in addition to them like the saxum and amar sets. So if you want to criticize those, at least do it context. You homed in on Ennervating Blade (the ONE weak mod lmao), fine, it could probably use some stronger numbers. The Anti-Faction mods, as I mentioned with Quxier, could be buffed to be competitive with Adaptation and the other SIX Adaptation competitors, which AHEM would make NINE extremely viable Adaptation alternatives.

What else, oh Howl and Cloak - these are just fun survival tools meant as clutch escape mechanisms for weak frames. If you want god mods, these ain't it either. Oh and the Aura set is probably way too powerful too, especially since you could use it in combination with this stuff.,but I've already spent time detailing those. If you want to talk about the experimental mods too we can.

Alright, here's my issue so I don't start picking apart every single mod, though I really could and of the mods, only the 3 I admitted to earlier could be replacements for Adaptation, I think the rest just don't compare unless there's some hidden magic numbers that are ridiculous.

I don't think these mods are inherently bad. They could be good, most of them, if you change the numbers. I also don't think they should be supplementing Adaptation. Adaptation generally already wants 2 other mod slots (Health and Armor), so that's 3/8 mods dedicated to survivability, and most of these mods will want that as well. If you have a tank you might drop armor, sure, but those are tanks and I thought the point was to improve the situation for all frames. I don't ever want more than 4/8 mod slots to be dedicated to survivability, and while that does leave 1 mod slot, I would prefer it also not be dedicated to not dying.

For example, your mod, Last Stand, has a very long cooldown of 90 seconds, and I'm assuming your buff doesn't last half that. That's a full 45 seconds of vulnerability where you lack any protections. That's death right there for most situations. It is worse than Adaptation because you just don't have on-demand protection, and protection needs to be on-demand. There's also the risk that an enemy will just insta-gib you before the mod activates by doing more than 15% of your health, but I think that should be the innate weakness of the mod to prevent it becoming overpowered. So, to fix this mod, the cooldown should be 20 seconds and the buff timer 10 seconds, for a vulnerability period of 10 seconds. Short enough that it might not last the combat encounter--or the Grineer hiding around the corner, you're only protected 50% of the time, but it's much more on-demand. I would maybe also make it instantly heal you to 100%, it would then be a potential replacement for Adaptation in my mind.

[CrownOfShadows]

13 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

Allow me to point out that just prior to the sole mention of shield-gating in my original post I am quoting someone other than you. I didn't bring up shield-gating to you, nor did I compare your mods to shield-gating.

16 enemies is a lot and there's no listed range. Good luck getting that many enemies around you and having them not die, not to mention you'll find that even with a 15 meter range it won't activate very often unless you're purposefully throwing yourself in the middle of a ball of enemies. I wouldn't expect a range beyond 30. The issue is the moment you're surrounded by 15 and not 16 you're going to die, because you don't have a whole 90% damage reduction anymore, or even any damage reduction from the mod.

Sure. I did say not all of them were weak at one point, but it does heavily depend on conversion rate. 90% reduction cap doesn't matter if you don't reach it for the whole mission.

It doesn't mention how much that percentage is for conversion, and armor loss is such a rare thing and easily negated with status immunity which any frame can get with Helminth. You would certainly need a huge amount of ability spam to max this out, even ability frames aren't casting every second, and I'm assuming the conversion rate is 50% or something less. Even when maxing it out, unless you're immediately casting again you're immediately dropping in damage reduction, and the difference between 80% damage reduction and 90% is double damage. Enemies do 20% instead of 10%, the higher the damage reduction the more every percentage point matters.

Though, I do agree that again this could be another strong mod, though many things aren't mentioned that could easily murder this.

80% damage reduction means you take 20% damage, which is double the 10% from 90% damage reduction.

Adaptation isn't infallible, of course it has the flaw in its ramping damage reduction. You would take 540% damage to reach 90% damage reduction. This mod requires you not be near any fellow Tenno, which I think is antithetical to a coop game, but regardless, assuming the same rate as Adaptation, requires only 225% to reach 80% damage reduction. Once that damage reduction is reached, you do need a significant amount of attacks from enemies to reach an equilibrium where Adaptation becomes better.

I would agree that this mod is possibly stronger than Adaptation. However, my one critique is that it shouldn't encourage not playing with other people.

It's 1/100th the build rate, granted from any damage, and decays every second you're not being hit for a max of 75% damage reduction. Remember how Adaptation was 540% damage to get to 90%? Well, hold on to your horses, because this mod blows that out of the water. By the time you get to significant damage reduction, you will have proven you can survive without this mod. That's how bad it is, and that's ignoring the decay or even the idea of a time limit.

Alright, here's my issue so I don't start picking apart every single mod, though I really could and of the mods, only the 3 I admitted to earlier could be replacements for Adaptation, I think the rest just don't compare unless there's some hidden magic numbers that are ridiculous.

I don't think these mods are inherently bad. They could be good, most of them, if you change the numbers. I also don't think they should be supplementing Adaptation. Adaptation generally already wants 2 other mod slots (Health and Armor), so that's 3/8 mods dedicated to survivability, and most of these mods will want that as well. If you have a tank you might drop armor, sure, but those are tanks and I thought the point was to improve the situation for all frames. I don't ever want more than 4/8 mod slots to be dedicated to survivability, and while that does leave 1 mod slot, I would prefer it also not be dedicated to not dying.

For example, your mod, Last Stand, has a very long cooldown of 90 seconds, and I'm assuming your buff doesn't last half that. That's a full 45 seconds of vulnerability where you lack any protections. That's death right there for most situations. It is worse than Adaptation because you just don't have on-demand protection, and protection needs to be on-demand. There's also the risk that an enemy will just insta-gib you before the mod activates by doing more than 15% of your health, but I think that should be the innate weakness of the mod to prevent it becoming overpowered. So, to fix this mod, the cooldown should be 20 seconds and the buff timer 10 seconds, for a vulnerability period of 10 seconds. Short enough that it might not last the combat encounter--or the Grineer hiding around the corner, you're only protected 50% of the time, but it's much more on-demand. I would maybe also make it instantly heal you to 100%, it would then be a potential replacement for Adaptation in my mind.

Well, even if you don't seem to have been able to come up with anything better I'm glad you see how strong these are (or could be)

On 2022-10-17 at 4:36 PM, DeadVoid118 said:

they're not good enough to justify replacing Adaptation even for builds centered on them.

None of these would be alternative

On 2022-10-17 at 10:19 PM, DeadVoid118 said:

all the mods presented are weak in a bad way.

20 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

these extra mods are just bad compared to current survivability mods. They don't replace Adaptation (most of them, anyway), nor do they come close. A good portion of them are worse than slotting in an extra armor or health mod

20 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

wildly underpowered.

When you finally got past your sweeping dismissals you managed to actually put out some constructive feedback, I'm proud of you.

Edited October 19, 2022 by CrownOfShadows

[CrownOfShadows]

I've updated many of the mods based on everyone's feedback, made some descriptions clearer, adjusted numbers, and broke them up into categories for easier viewing. If you have any updated feedback let me know.

[ShogunGunshow]

I thought that these would be cringe but I think a lot of these are interesting ideas. Numbers are whatever, those can be tweaked, but I like the concepts on display.