Do you guys think Warframe is F2P or P2W?

[Silligoose]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you cant actually skip those grinds. Someone else needs to do that specific grind before you can obtain the items. And no, it is a faulty line of thought to think DE profits from such items, since plat does not leave circulation just because it trades hands beteween players. DE doesnt profit until people buy things from their market so new plat needs to enter circulation. 

Again, none of it is sold by DE or circumvents a grind. Someone still needs to do it if you dont do it yourself. What you say also implies that as soon as a weapon or item is released in a game in an unintended state it would turn the game into a P2W game if that weapon can be obtained from the company or player to player trading. That is just silly to say the least. There are no actual P2W tied to conclave, it is just an abandoned mode, nothing else. Honestly, it is more P2W to be able to own your own server or have a great machine and host a match than anything the game provides. Which in itself is also a silly notion and more an example of why WF PvP should just get burried and be forgotten.

Can you give examples of where those have been used as negatives? Or where grind have gotten tweaked based on such mentization options. There is no grind in WF we can skip that is otherwise a long one and where the grind is based on the item being purchasable and dragged out because of that.

Nice you call wiki an encyclopedia, hard to not laugh about that, but anyways. You even ignore what it says. "for free who might otherwise hardly be able to access said items", right there in what you dug out on your own. It also mentions an advantage over their non paying peers. We gain no advantage over anyone else, nothing falls under "hardly be able to access" either in WF.

No WF isnt P2W since it isnt competative. Competative can be both PvP and PvE, no one said it has to be PvP exclusive. Immortal like I said have competative parts in both PvE and PvP that rewards paying players more since clocking in at rank 1-3 will reward you more in PvE encounters, aswell as having leaderboards with server first clear conditions and weekly payouts aswell for top positions. WF has none of that, there is nothing you gain an advantage at over non paying players. If you gain power, non paying players in WF will benefit from that extra power since you work together to clear content. And that would be if that extra fleeting power would actually matter for clearing the content. We pay to skip or pay for conveniance in WF, we pay to reduce what content is current to us, we pay to limit what we can do in a worthwhile way for a looter game, we pay to have content removed more or less.

 

 

My guy, you can skip the grind. I can skip the grind. In fact, I have skipped the grind. I'm one of the players that has bought plat from DE and spent that plat to attain certain assets within the game from others, such as Rivens and a part for Ash. DE made money when I bought that plat. I skipped the grind by buying that plat and using it to acquire gear. It odesn't matter if someone else had to grind the gear I acquired. I circumvented the grind by using real world money. DE made their money, regardless of who wound up grinding it. That's how they make money via player trade. That plat is not going to circulate between players indefinitely. Eventually someone is going to use some of it to buy something from DE via one of the various platsinks in this game, such as frame/weapon slots, boosters, Orokin catalysts, forma, timer skips etc. Some players simply stop playing with plat still in their accounts. As all this continues to happen, the cycle of players buying plat to acquire gear via trade, and players spending plat on assets for sale by DE directly, continues, and ensures plat continues to be introduced into the economy and taken out of the economy. Players buy plat. DE makes their profit. Players skip the grind. It is as simple as that. It is a beautiful p2w system DE has implemented, especially since they have managed to make some players think that, due to players also being able to benefit from this, it isn't p2w. Well done DE.

I believe Warframe's Kuva Weapon grind is as extended as it is due to Warframe's business model. Same goes for the Riven mod/Kuva farming system. Same goes for certain Arcanes. DE didn't make these assets tradeable to be nice. They didn't make the grind entailed extreme simply to give players something to do. It is all part of their business model. It is part of how they make money and it standard fare for a p2w model: Make a grind extreme, eg 60 hours for a max rank Arcane. Have a system by which players can use real world money to skip that grind. With Kuva weapons, they introduced new, very powerful weapons, with a pretty gruesome grind associated as well as some RNG stats via, and then just so happened to make them tradeable so their agents can make them some money 🙂 

Most people playing this game do not have the time to acquire godroll Rivens and certain max rank Arcanes - they are hardly able to access these items, because they don't have 50+ hours to spend grinding for it. Yes, money gives an advantage over non-paying peers, in that paying players can acquire in-game assets that affect performance faster than their free playing peers.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

We pay to skip or pay for conveniance in WF, we pay to reduce what content is current to us, we pay to limit what we can do in a worthwhile way for a looter game, we pay to have content removed more or less.

Players in some the p2w games you have mentioned, pay for the exact same thing.

If there are two games using the exact same p2w business model, and one has certain competitive elements, whilst the other doesn't, the business model doesn't suddenly change. The same principles are still applied. Naming the pve game's business model something else due to the lack of competitiveness is silly.

No need to kick good 'ol Wikipedia. It is an online encyclopaedia. 

We've reached an impasse.

[Nuada_2]

Warframe is the most F2P game I know. I have not spent a single Cent on it. Not interested in PvP...

Used to play Path of Exile before and there you have to spend money if you want to trade decently and have enough stash room. Actually decided not to play it until we have the possibility to earn stashes ingame.

So I really hope Soulframe´s monetarization will be the same as in Warframe.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

My guy, you can skip the grind. I can skip the grind. In fact, I have skipped the grind. I'm one of the players that has bought plat from DE and spent that plat to attain certain assets within the game from others, such as Rivens and a part for Ash. DE made money when I bought that plat. I skipped the grind by buying that plat and using it to acquire gear. It odesn't matter if someone else had to grind the gear I acquired. I circumvented the grind by using real world money. DE made their money, regardless of who wound up grinding it. That's how they make money via player trade. That plat is not going to circulate between players indefinitely. Eventually someone is going to use some of it to buy something from DE via one of the various platsinks in this game, such as frame/weapon slots, boosters, Orokin catalysts, forma, timer skips etc. Some players simply stop playing with plat still in their accounts. As all this continues to happen, the cycle of players buying plat to acquire gear via trade, and players spending plat on assets for sale by DE directly, continues, and ensures plat continues to be introduced into the economy and taken out of the economy. Players buy plat. DE makes their profit. Players skip the grind. It is as simple as that. It is a beautiful p2w system DE has implemented, especially since they have managed to make some players think that, due to players also being able to benefit from this, it isn't p2w. Well done DE.

I believe Warframe's Kuva Weapon grind is as extended as it is due to Warframe's business model. Same goes for the Riven mod/Kuva farming system. Same goes for certain Arcanes. DE didn't make these assets tradeable to be nice. They didn't make the grind entailed extreme simply to give players something to do. It is all part of their business model. It is part of how they make money and it standard fare for a p2w model: Make a grind extreme, eg 60 hours for a max rank Arcane. Have a system by which players can use real world money to skip that grind. With Kuva weapons, they introduced new, very powerful weapons, with a pretty gruesome grind associated as well as some RNG stats via, and then just so happened to make them tradeable so their agents can make them some money 🙂 

Most people playing this game do not have the time to acquire godroll Rivens and certain max rank Arcanes - they are hardly able to access these items, because they don't have 50+ hours to spend grinding for it. Yes, money gives an advantage over non-paying peers, in that paying players can acquire in-game assets that affect performance faster than their free playing peers.

Players in some the p2w games you have mentioned, pay for the exact same thing.

If there are two games using the exact same p2w business model, and one has certain competitive elements, whilst the other doesn't, the business model doesn't suddenly change. The same principles are still applied. Naming the pve game's business model something else due to the lack of competitiveness is silly.

No need to kick good 'ol Wikipedia. It is an online encyclopaedia. 

We've reached an impasse.

The first part I'm just not gonna bother with since you seem to think you are the norm when we already show that we approach the game differently between grind and purchases.

Very flawed thoughts regarding Kuva Weapons. The system was implemented without trading in mind. Valence was also introduced later to improve the system along with trading. It is very easy to cap a kuva or tenet weapon on your own now. They've made it easier and easier overtime aswell. If they based it on money they wouldnt have made it as easy as it is, nor would they have thrown Oull words at us. In reality, what you buy from other players is still only the precursor, nothing else, maybe a specific % stat for the damage aswell if you are a min-maxer. You still need to go through the rest of it on your own. The kuva/tenet system is probably one of the quickest I've ever experienced in a looter or arpg.

Do you have data for those "most" players? You also dont talk about an advantage over other players, you talk about an advantage over the game. All of it being optional content, there is no competition if someone goes this or that far. You also dont need a godroll or arcane to go far into the content which allows it. And again it all comes from another player that must have done the grind for it at one point for free and faced the RNG.

Yes, players in some p2w games do that. Which was covered way earlier. P2W automatically includes P4C and P2S, it does not mean that P4C and P2S = P2W.

But it is something else since there is no competition and no winning. You only "win" over the game content itself, and that is not the "win" P2W refers to, since that is about winning conditions over other players.

No wiki is wiki, moderated and changed by anyone. Or if you read somewhere on wiki that I was God you would believe that I was God? Yes wiki is useful at times but not always. Funny though that you still kinda ignored what the wiki actually said.

[Paradoxity]

10 minutes ago, CurrySodaPrimed said:

if i can spend 10 dollars to skip hours and hours needless grind

In another game, that may even make sense. 

In warframe, you're just as well served going to play something else if you wanna skip hours of grind. All warframe is is grind. There is no endgame or anything approaching a 'win' condition. There are no raids, no strikes, no dungeons, no bosses of note. There are no leaderboards for score, time, or world firsts in anything. (This actually may be untrue,  I seem to recall the dojo race course had leaderboards.) All you do- ALL you do- in warframe is grind. You grind to grind some more and when you're done with that grind you can go grind something else. Even with a hypothetically meta prefect optimum max build of warframe, weapons, pet, archwing, railjack, and whatever else, all there is to do with that is... well, I think I've made the point. 

Going "I want to skip this grind to get to that grind" is silly at best, and paying for it is... I'll say questionable, but that's only because I'd get in trouble for the more apt term. "Winning Time" is, quite possibly, the silliest notion there is so far to attempt to justify "Pay to win"- because at that point you're basically admitting that you're paying DE to not play the game. 

Warframe has so many issues with it it's unreal. There's enough that even coming back for a few days reminds me why I quit playing in the first place. However, I will also always give credit where it's due- they have far from the worst monetization system in place among online games in general, and are far from pay to win of any real stripe. If you want to know what actual factual pay to win looks like, go check out some of the PvP videos from Diablo Immortal. 

[Silligoose]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The first part I'm just not gonna bother with since you seem to think you are the norm when we already show that we approach the game differently between grind and purchases.

Very flawed thoughts regarding Kuva Weapons. The system was implemented without trading in mind. Valence was also introduced later to improve the system along with trading. It is very easy to cap a kuva or tenet weapon on your own now. They've made it easier and easier overtime aswell. If they based it on money they wouldnt have made it as easy as it is, nor would they have thrown Oull words at us. In reality, what you buy from other players is still only the precursor, nothing else, maybe a specific % stat for the damage aswell if you are a min-maxer. You still need to go through the rest of it on your own. The kuva/tenet system is probably one of the quickest I've ever experienced in a looter or arpg.

Do you have data for those "most" players? You also dont talk about an advantage over other players, you talk about an advantage over the game. All of it being optional content, there is no competition if someone goes this or that far. You also dont need a godroll or arcane to go far into the content which allows it. And again it all comes from another player that must have done the grind for it at one point for free and faced the RNG.

Yes, players in some p2w games do that. Which was covered way earlier. P2W automatically includes P4C and P2S, it does not mean that P4C and P2S = P2W.

But it is something else since there is no competition and no winning. You only "win" over the game content itself, and that is not the "win" P2W refers to, since that is about winning conditions over other players.

No wiki is wiki, moderated and changed by anyone. Or if you read somewhere on wiki that I was God you would believe that I was God? Yes wiki is useful at times but not always. Funny though that you still kinda ignored what the wiki actually said.

I don't think I'm the norm - I think most people do not spend a dime on Warframe. I'm showing how paying money allowed me to skip the grind, contrary to your statement. Idgaf who did the gruntwork. Neiter does DE. They made proft. I skipped the grind. Simple p2w working as intended.

Kuva Liches were introduced 31 Oct 2019. Kuva Lich trading was introduced about 15 days later. This was not a coincidence. It wasn't a spur-of-the-moment change either. The Kuva Weapon grind was far more insufferable back then as opposed to now. If memory serves, one couldn't even see what weapon the Lich would have prior to locking it in and if one didn't want that weapon, too bad. One had to complete that missions, try again and hope RNG smiles upon one. You are deluded if you think that grind wasn't affected by DE's plans to make those weapons tradeable between players so they can make more money. It being easier to farm those weapons now does not change how ridiculous the grind was. DE made their money.

The advantage paying players have over their peers is being able to attain gear faster. It is also an advantage one would have over oneself, if one decided to be a free player.

8 hours and 27 minutes. That's how long the average gamer plays each week | TechRepublic
Weekly hours video games by country 2021 | Statista
Based on various studies, the average gamer games for 8 - 12 hours per week. Depending on country it may be more, or less. On average, that means spending 5 - 8 weeks of grinding a max rank Arcane energize. ONLY grinding for that. No other missions, no other events, not other weapons, no other frames, no other games and that is IF they can  actually do 6x3's, which most can't. I feel pretty confident in saying most players are hardly able to access many of the items in this game locked behind the extreme grinds in Warframe. 

Even though p2s and p4c are both simply forms of p2w, p2w doesn't automatically include p2s or p4c. Ark: Survival Evolved is p2w, but doesn't have p2s or p4c options - it is p2w because players can buy expansions, that grant them access to acquire greater amounts of power, which they in turn can use to their advantage in either older PvE content, or against others in PvP, even if those other players do not have those expansions and thus do not have access to the more powerful assets.

Wikipedia cites references. Seeing as you want to go that route, time to cite your definition of p2w. While you are at it, cite where it is stated that most players adhere to what you consider p2w to be, since you are so sure most in the gaming community believe what you do.

Go ahead and change the page on free2play on Wikipedia, since you think it is so easy.

[(XBOX)MidlifeGamerAce]

On 2022-10-21 at 1:21 AM, AzureScion said:

Definitely not pay 2 win. In fact there are probably people farming platinum to be sold to others for real life cash so I'd say this game is borderline "paid to play"

Pay to Play means you either need to purchace the game or need to purchase content for the game every so often in order to advance in the game

On 2022-10-21 at 5:58 AM, Ambrosia_Rev said:

Well first you need to take a look at where plat originates from. Only through IRL money.

Plat from giveaways is not tradeable.

Time is the greatest resource of all and boosters, buying weapons/frames/mods for plat greatly save time.

Boosters are definitely p2w without a doubt.

~~Btw keep in mind that DE has also created a new ammo drop booster.~~ prolly meme

Boosters are not Pay to Win as you have the option to purchase the platinum, boosters, and special bundle packs (such as the prime access) for Pay to Wim they would have to require the purchase of something in order to advance through the games content

[Turboameeba]

On 2022-10-21 at 2:40 AM, mega_lova_nia said:

As an experienced warframe player, I'm more inclined to say that Warframe is F2P due to the nature of the game giving you a ton of resources, an easy accessibility to gear, and how you can enjoy the game and even finish it while there is no "predatory push" to buy premium currency with its fair economy, at least when compared to other games. However i found it surprising that there are some people that do think Warframe is P2W due to how you can buy gear with plat and knowing how grindy the game is and yes i do admit that boosters, using plat to buy gear, and regal aya can be seen as a "predatory push" to buy plat/premium currency. This made me wonder, judging by the situation that Warframe is in right now and compared to other games, do you guys think Warframe is F2P or P2W?

P2W does not mean there has to be a predatory push. It simply means you can use money get an advantage over others, which very much Warframe is. It's just not predatory.

[mycroft_]

I'd say it is absolutely predatory.

If you look deeper into the aspects of human psychology they take advantage of to make this game more addictive to susceptible people, you'd probably think so too.

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, CurrySodaPrimed said:

i think you stand to win a lot of time when you spend money in warframe that is what he trying to say, winning does not always involve pvp and competitive, in warframe case spending money will save you days and days of grind and waiting, it also save you from sitting on your chair staring at list of text to sell something, thats a wasted time they can be spent better like actually playing the game and the devs know that which why we never get auction house.

for me personally i treat time as more valuable than money, if i can spend 10 dollars to skip hours and hours needless grind i will do it, neet and kids might not but ppl with jobs and life see it differently, so i think warframe is p2w f2p game that abuse a lot of psychology blind spots to make money.  

And that is just pay to skip or pay for conveniance, nothing more, nothing less. P2W was coined since those terms did not suffice in competative game environments where you could pay for access to power over other players. And the reason why we wont get an AH is not due to some dev scheming, it is because it would require more data base capacity, it would also need to work in our current peer-to-peer setup. It would increase costs for DE in order for us to benefit more from being allowed to trade premium currency in the first place. Which most games do not even allow, or have extremely harsh limitation on it like in STO or NWO, and BDO iirc these days.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I don't think I'm the norm - I think most people do not spend a dime on Warframe. I'm showing how paying money allowed me to skip the grind, contrary to your statement. Idgaf who did the gruntwork. Neiter does DE. They made proft. I skipped the grind. Simple p2w working as intended.

Kuva Liches were introduced 31 Oct 2019. Kuva Lich trading was introduced about 15 days later. This was not a coincidence. It wasn't a spur-of-the-moment change either. The Kuva Weapon grind was far more insufferable back then as opposed to now. If memory serves, one couldn't even see what weapon the Lich would have prior to locking it in and if one didn't want that weapon, too bad. One had to complete that missions, try again and hope RNG smiles upon one. You are deluded if you think that grind wasn't affected by DE's plans to make those weapons tradeable between players so they can make more money. It being easier to farm those weapons now does not change how ridiculous the grind was. DE made their money.

The advantage paying players have over their peers is being able to attain gear faster. It is also an advantage one would have over oneself, if one decided to be a free player.

8 hours and 27 minutes. That's how long the average gamer plays each week | TechRepublic
Weekly hours video games by country 2021 | Statista
Based on various studies, the average gamer games for 8 - 12 hours per week. Depending on country it may be more, or less. On average, that means spending 5 - 8 weeks of grinding a max rank Arcane energize. ONLY grinding for that. No other missions, no other events, not other weapons, no other frames, no other games and that is IF they can  actually do 6x3's, which most can't. I feel pretty confident in saying most players are hardly able to access many of the items in this game locked behind the extreme grinds in Warframe. 

Even though p2s and p4c are both simply forms of p2w, p2w doesn't automatically include p2s or p4c. Ark: Survival Evolved is p2w, but doesn't have p2s or p4c options - it is p2w because players can buy expansions, that grant them access to acquire greater amounts of power, which they in turn can use to their advantage in either older PvE content, or against others in PvP, even if those other players do not have those expansions and thus do not have access to the more powerful assets.

Wikipedia cites references. Seeing as you want to go that route, time to cite your definition of p2w. While you are at it, cite where it is stated that most players adhere to what you consider p2w to be, since you are so sure most in the gaming community believe what you do.

Go ahead and change the page on free2play on Wikipedia, since you think it is so easy.

No you still just skip things. You still dont gain an upper hand over someone else.

It wasnt affected by DE's monetary plans. It was affected by very bad design decisions across the board and a very bullheaded developer at the time which I wont name. All in all though, the grind wasnt at all out of the ordinary for a game in this genre. It was inline with the initial RJ equipment grind, which also wasnt out of the ordinary. People just want things fed to them with a silverspoon, so both systems were made mindnumbingly simple and fast. Kinda like everything else that gets released in a somewhat good state, then gets nerfed to oblivion. If you think that was a rediculous grind I assume you've never played any other arpg or looter shooter.

How is that an advantage over someone else? How is the other player affected by what you have access to and they dont? It is all personal, since you cannot assume every other player would prefer skipping the grind to get something, since they might actually enjoy the gameplay chasing it. There is no must have scenario in WF like there is in a competative game. You buying say uhm Rev Prime straight out the door does not actually give you an advantage over someone still using just Rev while grinding for Rev Prime. And with weapons it also comes down to the game not being based on linear progression. 

Those players likely dont have their eyes on or care about arcanes in the first place, and it is doubtful they do any content where an arcane might be useful, nor would another player notice if they have one or not when they play together.

Nope they arent "simply forms of p2w", they are p2s and p4c. If they were forms of p2w we wouldnt need the term p2w in the first place lol. And no, Ark isnt p2w since you can chose not to play on servers that utilize expansions or even specific items, technology levels and so on. No one is forcing anyone to play on a server that uses expansions you dont have access to. Joining such a server and then complaining is on that player alone, no one else. And if they are part of a clan that runs the server then they should probably consider a new clan if their clannies wont build them those items.

I dont really need to cite anything, you can do a simple goggle search on "p2w definition" or similar and get several actual encyplopedias and dictionaries as results.

8 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

I'd say it is absolutely predatory.

If you look deeper into the aspects of human psychology they take advantage of to make this game more addictive to susceptible people, you'd probably think so too.

Such people are susceptible to everything though. You dont need much design to get such people addicted. They easily get addicted to the genre in this case, which in itself isnt created to be addictive or a cash cow. If the genre was based on bringing in money due to addicted people, games like Nyx and Diablo 1/2 would have had monetary setups tied to their gameplay loop. Same deal with games like Everquest, DaoC, SWG, Anarchy Online, WoW, FFXI, FFXIV and so on. They wouldnt settle with monthly subs to simply keep the servers running and the game updated. And the grind in WF is no worse than them.

 

[mycroft_]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Such people are susceptible to everything though.

You misunderstand.

Everyone is susceptible to operant conditioning.

[SneakyErvin]

19 minutes ago, mycroft_ said:

You misunderstand.

Everyone is susceptible to operant conditioning.

Well obviously we are since it is a foundation in "learning", but that is not what you said. You said "they take advantage of to make this game more addictive to susceptible people", which makes you imply we dont all fall under that "susceptible people" category that they specicially try to make the game more addictive to according to you. Which is why I and probably serveral others dont see anything odd, mischievous or corrupt in this game compared to other titles in the genre.

Or since you now seem to claim it was directed to everyone, does that mean D1/2 and all those other games that have no monetary gain beyond the initial buy are also predatory since they have gameplay system mechanics regarding loot that are practically as "harsh" or "worse" than WF? It couldnt just be that those games want people to have replayability doing something they enjoy doing, like chasing loot and slaughtering monsters in droves in an appealing setting?

[mycroft_]

Those games rely on it too - if you have a bunch of psychologically addicted users, it'll keep others buying new copies of the game who wouldn't if it was a ghost town.

D1/2 utilized dark patterns in gaming.

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, mycroft_ said:

Those games rely on it too - if you have a bunch of psychologically addicted users, it'll keep others buying new copies of the game who wouldn't if it was a ghost town.

D1/2 utilized dark patterns in gaming.

And how exactly would people know if they werent "ghost towns" when mostly people played solo or relied on only small groups of friends in peer-to-peer or LAN games? 

So then MUDs were also dark pattern games since most of them followed the same gameplay loop formula? Even though all of them were fully free? Torchlight, Elder Scrolls games and all other single player experiences with similar loot hunt mechanics are also dark pattern games then, even though they are literally ghost towns of 1 by being solo only. Legend of Zelda aswell. 

[Paradoxity]

23 hours ago, CurrySodaPrimed said:

decorating your hero is the end game, you can get there faster by spending money, gotta catch em all is more painless when you spend green money on the game, but yes you're correct, this game is nothing but grind on top of grind on top of other form of grinds that use grind powered propane tanks, you can skip all of that by spending money therefor its pay 2 win, what do you win? oh a ungodly amount of time that you could have spent doing a raid in destiny 2 or having a sweat fest in a competitive pvp game and that is more fun than whatever grind this game has to offer.

no i am paying de not to wait 3 days for whatever reason just to try out weapon or a frame i spent days farming for, i am actually paying them to not hold my time hostage, sure i can do something else while waiting but that start to piss me off once you attempt to build more stuff, also the game have all kind of fomo in its open world and having high mr will help by a lot! and how do you have high mr? oh right pay for ton of slots if you want to keep weapon you spent time farming and waiting for to build or just delete them and make more and god help you when you want a weapon or a frame you deleted back, you will have to do the same grind all over again alongside the waiting.

the game is not competitive, its brain dead horde shooter, that is why the focus so much on pay 2 skip schemes, its pay 2 win in a sense that you win a lot of time, and i mean lot and lot of time that would have been spent on pointless repetitive grind just to try out a new toy, they pay wall and time gate a lot of stuff that way and it works.

but do you know what is the worst of them all? Rivens, this one have it all, time gate, paid slots, rng on top of rng on top of another rng, gamble currency to roll the dice that is also required and used by many weapon and items recipes and grinding it is a big chore, no matter you argue for this one its the biggest pay 2 win you could ever think of, even if you say that you dont need a riven to play the game it does not change anything, if someone want to engage with it without paying money then there is so many rng and time gates involved its not even funny, you can go weeks without seeing a single riven, but guess what, you can shell out a handsome amount of premium currency and have it right away.

pay 2 win does not have to be just about pvp, as explained above this game pay 2 win condition is your time, and that far more valuable than anything else, its literally your very life ticking away fast with fiendish grind that can be skipped instantly with money.

Let me sum this up, ok? 

Let's pretend DE is a restaurant. An all you can eat buffet, even. 

They only serve mashed potatoes. Oh, they dress them up all different ways- some have salt and butter, some are garlic and cheese, there's even some sour cream and chive in there- but it's all mashed potatoes, all the time. You get four bowls at a time of these mashed potatoes, and in order to get more, you have to finish a bowl. When you do, you get another bowl of mashed potatoes, maybe even of a different flavor. 

What you're saying is that you 'win' at this restaurant by paying them to let you get more bowls of mashed potatoes before finishing your first bowls, because that saves time. 

 

 

 

 

[Silligoose]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No you still just skip things. You still dont gain an upper hand over someone else.

It wasnt affected by DE's monetary plans. It was affected by very bad design decisions across the board and a very bullheaded developer at the time which I wont name. All in all though, the grind wasnt at all out of the ordinary for a game in this genre. It was inline with the initial RJ equipment grind, which also wasnt out of the ordinary. People just want things fed to them with a silverspoon, so both systems were made mindnumbingly simple and fast. Kinda like everything else that gets released in a somewhat good state, then gets nerfed to oblivion. If you think that was a rediculous grind I assume you've never played any other arpg or looter shooter.

How is that an advantage over someone else? How is the other player affected by what you have access to and they dont? It is all personal, since you cannot assume every other player would prefer skipping the grind to get something, since they might actually enjoy the gameplay chasing it. There is no must have scenario in WF like there is in a competative game. You buying say uhm Rev Prime straight out the door does not actually give you an advantage over someone still using just Rev while grinding for Rev Prime. And with weapons it also comes down to the game not being based on linear progression. 

Those players likely dont have their eyes on or care about arcanes in the first place, and it is doubtful they do any content where an arcane might be useful, nor would another player notice if they have one or not when they play together.

Nope they arent "simply forms of p2w", they are p2s and p4c. If they were forms of p2w we wouldnt need the term p2w in the first place lol. And no, Ark isnt p2w since you can chose not to play on servers that utilize expansions or even specific items, technology levels and so on. No one is forcing anyone to play on a server that uses expansions you dont have access to. Joining such a server and then complaining is on that player alone, no one else. And if they are part of a clan that runs the server then they should probably consider a new clan if their clannies wont build them those items.

I dont really need to cite anything, you can do a simple goggle search on "p2w definition" or similar and get several actual encyplopedias and dictionaries as results.

I've played other arpgs and other loot games. Some also have ridiculous grinds. Just because some other games also have extreme grinds, doesn't mean Warframe doesn't have extreme grinds. These p2w loot games generally have extreme grinds as it serves as a means to entice players to spend money to engage with the p2w mechanics, by skipping those grinds.

I will say it straight: You are only fooling yourself if you think the extreme grinds in Warframe have nothing to do with the business model. You really think the extreme grinds are due to "very bad decisions across the board" and it just so happened to occur over and over and over? Sure buddy. All pure coincidence. Coincidentally the same types of "very bad decisions" just so happen to be implemented by other companies in their p2w loot games as well, that just so happen to be in the same genre as Warframe. Pure coincidence I tell you! It will be pure coincidence when DE decides to make Archon Shards tradeable as well and the timegating involved in acquiring these Shards will also be pure coincidence or, I suppose in your opinion due to "very bad decisions across the board" again. Wake up!

Claiming things like the players who don't have the time to farm items locked behind extreme grinds likely don't have their eyes on those Arcanes, or don't care about those Arcanes, is more crazy talk and claiming it is doubtful they do any content where such an arcane might be useful is downright ludicrous. You don't think a low MR player still doing base Star Chart would find max rank Arcane Energize useful? Of course they would! In fact, it would be more useful to them than it would be an endgame player like me, because unlike me, they don't have a myriad of energy replenishing options available.

Let's talk about Ark and your insane defence of its p2w mechanic: I like that game and I had fun in it, although the bugs are infuriating, but claiming it isn't p2w because players can choose to stay away from the official servers and in doing so avoid other players who gained an advantage by way of purchases is just more crazy talk. You may as well claim Overwatch 2 isn't p2w, because players can create private lobbies in which they only allow the free heroes to be playable. No. Both are p2w.

I know you think p2w games need to have competitive pvp. This is one of our main points of contention, but let's explore this again:

By your reasoning, Warframe was p2w years ago when Solar Rail Conflict was still a thing, as it was competitive pvp with tangible rewards. Solar Rail Conflict was eventually removed from the game, but even though Warframe's p2w business model didn't change, you think the game magically went from a p2w business model to something else. This is despite there still being a form of competitive pvp, because in your eyes, the pvp isn't popular enough, is imbalanced (not uncommon in p2w pvp games, such as the pokemon moba) and isn't given much attention by the devs.

You say you don't need to cite anything because one can simply google pay to win or pay to win definition. To lay this to rest, I did just that and I've posted the links below, along with the definitions in each link. I'm actually guessing you did google it and found what I did: Over and over the definitions given describe a game in which real-world money can be used to gain an advantage over non-paying players. It doesn't say adversaries. It doesn't say competitors. It doesn't say the game needs to be pvp and it sure as hell doesn't go into your arbitrary requirements for what is considered viable pvp elements in your eyes. It says other players. Your assertion that a game needs to have certain competitive elements in order for it to be p2w, is pure fabrication on your part as far as I see. Your assertion that the acquisition of said assets in a game need to be via direct purchase from the game is another fabrication. If you actually went through the links another player provided in this thread, or did a little bit of research, you'd have understood why in0game economies and mechanics that allow players to trade items with premium currency is an important mechanic that increases a game's profitability. You'll need to start citing those sources in which the "majority of the gaming community" is shown to adhere to the subjective trash definition of p2w you cling to and you'll have to cite a few, because thus far various sources are not backing your claims.

Funniest yet, the third search result (first second link below) lists Warframe as an example of a p2w game. So does the link last on the list below (it was on the second page of the google search results). The second third link discusses the various forms of p2w, including p2s (referred to as pay not to grind): 

PAY TO WIN (noun) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary "in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others".

What is Pay-to-win? (computerhope.com) "Pay-to-win, abbreviated as P2W, describes an aspect of a game where players are allowed to get an advantage with real-world currency to purchase in-game items. The pay-to-win structure is prevalent in both multiplayer online games through DLC (downloadable content) and mobile games through in-app purchases."

What Is "Pay-to-Win" in Video Games? (makeuseof.com) "In the simplest terms, "pay-to-win" describes a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money."

P2W | What Does P2W Mean? (cyberdefinitions.com) "P2W is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win," to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters)."

P2W Meaning Explained - What Are P2W Games? (esports.net) "This means that you’ll actually be buying things like loot crates or even skins to gain an advantage over other players who haven’t purchased the items."

Pay to Win – Meaning, Origin, Usage (digitalcultures.net) "Pay to win is an expression for games that promote themselves as “free to play” but offer purchasable content that puts buyers into a favorable position over their fellow players who are playing the game freely."

What Are Pay-to-Win Games? The Best and Worst of 2022 (gamedesigning.org) "Users and players willing to shell out a few extra bucks to access features that are normally unlocked as the game progresses can give some serious advantage, especially in online games."

You've got too many arbitrary lines squiggles in the sand to convince yourself Warframe isn't p2w. I have no idea why. Maybe you think you are above playing a p2w game because you view p2w games as shady/immoral/predatory and your ego won't allow you to accept that you have been doing so all along. You can keep sticking your head in the sand and try to ignore what is staring you square in the face: P2w games can be pvp and/or pve. Warframe has both pvp and pve. Warframe had pvp that would meet even your fabricated requirements to make it p2w years ago when it had competitive pvp. Warframe still makes use of the same business model it did back then and that specific form of pvp being removed actually has zero impact on whether it is p2w or not.

Not only has another poster provided links in this very thread to help you understand p2w business models, but there is a wealth of information available at your fingertips to delve into the subject matter so you can increase your understanding regarding it.

It is time for you to accept that not all p2w games are automatically bad. It is time for you to accept that your definition of p2w isn't held by the majority of the gaming community. It is time for you to accept that Warframe is p2w.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I've played other arpgs and other loot games. Some also have ridiculous grinds. Just because some other games also have extreme grinds, doesn't mean Warframe doesn't have extreme grinds. These p2w loot games generally have extreme grinds as it serves as a means to entice players to spend money to engage with the p2w mechanics, by skipping those grinds.

I will say it straight: You are only fooling yourself if you think the extreme grinds in Warframe have nothing to do with the business model. You really think the extreme grinds are due to "very bad decisions across the board" and it just so happened to occur over and over and over? Sure buddy. All pure coincidence. Coincidentally the same types of "very bad decisions" just so happen to be implemented by other companies in their p2w loot games as well, that just so happen to be in the same genre as Warframe. Pure coincidence I tell you! It will be pure coincidence when DE decides to make Archon Shards tradeable as well and the timegating involved in acquiring these Shards will also be pure coincidence or, I suppose in your opinion due to "very bad decisions across the board" again. Wake up!

Claiming things like the players who don't have the time to farm items locked behind extreme grinds likely don't have their eyes on those Arcanes, or don't care about those Arcanes, is more crazy talk and claiming it is doubtful they do any content where such an arcane might be useful is downright ludicrous. You don't think a low MR player still doing base Star Chart would find max rank Arcane Energize useful? Of course they would! In fact, it would be more useful to them than it would be an endgame player like me, because unlike me, they don't have a myriad of energy replenishing options available.

Let's talk about Ark and your insane defence of its p2w mechanic: I like that game and I had fun in it, although the bugs are infuriating, but claiming it isn't p2w because players can choose to stay away from the official servers and in doing so avoid other players who gained an advantage by way of purchases is just more crazy talk. You may as well claim Overwatch 2 isn't p2w, because players can create private lobbies in which they only allow the free heroes to be playable. No. Both are p2w.

I know you think p2w games need to have competitive pvp. This is one of our main points of contention, but let's explore this again:

By your reasoning, Warframe was p2w years ago when Solar Rail Conflict was still a thing, as it was competitive pvp with tangible rewards. Solar Rail Conflict was eventually removed from the game, but even though Warframe's p2w business model didn't change, you think the game magically went from a p2w business model to something else. This is despite there still being a form of competitive pvp, because in your eyes, the pvp isn't popular enough, is imbalanced (not uncommon in p2w pvp games, such as the pokemon moba) and isn't given much attention by the devs.

You say you don't need to cite anything because one can simply google pay to win or pay to win definition. To lay this to rest, I did just that and I've posted the links below, along with the definitions in each link. I'm actually guessing you did google it and found what I did: Over and over the definitions given describe a game in which real-world money can be used to gain an advantage over non-paying players. It doesn't say adversaries. It doesn't say competitors. It doesn't say the game needs to be pvp and it sure as hell doesn't go into your arbitrary requirements for what is considered viable pvp elements in your eyes. It says other players. Your assertion that a game needs to have certain competitive elements in order for it to be p2w, is pure fabrication on your part as far as I see. Your assertion that the acquisition of said assets in a game need to be via direct purchase from the game is another fabrication. If you actually went through the links another player provided in this thread, or did a little bit of research, you'd have understood why in0game economies and mechanics that allow players to trade items with premium currency is an important mechanic that increases a game's profitability. You'll need to start citing those sources in which the "majority of the gaming community" is shown to adhere to the subjective trash definition of p2w you cling to and you'll have to cite a few, because thus far various sources are not backing your claims.

Funniest yet, the third search result (first second link below) lists Warframe as an example of a p2w game. So does the link last on the list below (it was on the second page of the google search results). The second third link discusses the various forms of p2w, including p2s (referred to as pay not to grind): 

PAY TO WIN (noun) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary "in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others".

What is Pay-to-win? (computerhope.com) "Pay-to-win, abbreviated as P2W, describes an aspect of a game where players are allowed to get an advantage with real-world currency to purchase in-game items. The pay-to-win structure is prevalent in both multiplayer online games through DLC (downloadable content) and mobile games through in-app purchases."

What Is "Pay-to-Win" in Video Games? (makeuseof.com) "In the simplest terms, "pay-to-win" describes a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money."

P2W | What Does P2W Mean? (cyberdefinitions.com) "P2W is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win," to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters)."

P2W Meaning Explained - What Are P2W Games? (esports.net) "This means that you’ll actually be buying things like loot crates or even skins to gain an advantage over other players who haven’t purchased the items."

Pay to Win – Meaning, Origin, Usage (digitalcultures.net) "Pay to win is an expression for games that promote themselves as “free to play” but offer purchasable content that puts buyers into a favorable position over their fellow players who are playing the game freely."

What Are Pay-to-Win Games? The Best and Worst of 2022 (gamedesigning.org) "Users and players willing to shell out a few extra bucks to access features that are normally unlocked as the game progresses can give some serious advantage, especially in online games."

You've got too many arbitrary lines squiggles in the sand to convince yourself Warframe isn't p2w. I have no idea why. Maybe you think you are above playing a p2w game because you view p2w games as shady/immoral/predatory and your ego won't allow you to accept that you have been doing so all along. You can keep sticking your head in the sand and try to ignore what is staring you square in the face: P2w games can be pvp and/or pve. Warframe has both pvp and pve. Warframe had pvp that would meet even your fabricated requirements to make it p2w years ago when it had competitive pvp. Warframe still makes use of the same business model it did back then and that specific form of pvp being removed actually has zero impact on whether it is p2w or not.

Not only has another poster provided links in this very thread to help you understand p2w business models, but there is a wealth of information available at your fingertips to delve into the subject matter so you can increase your understanding regarding it.

It is time for you to accept that not all p2w games are automatically bad. It is time for you to accept that your definition of p2w isn't held by the majority of the gaming community. It is time for you to accept that Warframe is p2w.

Those links really dont say much, since only one of them is an actual dictionary. Most of the others touch very fringe things. One even uses skins as a p2w argument, and another uses DLCs. There are 2 of them that actually gets it right outside of the dictionary entry, which is the last one "serious advantage" and the third from the top "significant advantage". Neither of those apply to WF.

You keep ignoring that other players must grind whatever you buy that grants actual power. Like I said, base frames and weapons do not give any advantage aside from skipping the grind. Mods and everything else put into the weapons and frames bring the actual power. If you buy that power, someone else must have done the grind for it as I said before. That also means that you arent actually buying an advantage over other players, since you as a buyer are already behind the curve when you purchase that item which has been ground by someone else. You arent effectively skipping ahead of anyone, you are in effect catching up. And that is if we go by your most watered down definition of P2W. This again is proof of it being nothing but p2s or p4c in order to catch up to a point where others are at already, since you cannot buy that power directly when it is introduced to the game, unlike p2w where you can buy it the second it is patched in. Yes we can buy frames and weapons like that, but those do not provide any actual power on their own, nor are they guaranteed upgrades compared to what someone else uses, since the game is again not a linear game. Only in comparison to a normal version of the frame and weapon is it a power increase, but it is not significant at that point. It can even be a straight downgrade when it comes to weapons incase the normal version has a better disposition.

I also dont refuse to play p2w game, I play them but I dont spend in them, simple as that. But there is a large difference between WF and that. The WF PvP you talk about back then was balanced however. Heck it still is to a certain point where they dont always introduce brand new items to the mode, or simply remove them if they arent tuned. You still seem hung up on a severely bugged weapon that isnt intended to work like it does in Conclave, that does not make it a P2W item. If you base it on a bug it is like I aksed before, a game suddenly shifts to P2W whenever an items is bugged if it can be purchased some way, which you said no to.

Which poster posted links to P2W? I've only seen links to "dark pattern" methods in games, which has nothing to do with P2W.

[Silligoose]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Those links really dont say much, since only one of them is an actual dictionary. Most of the others touch very fringe things. One even uses skins as a p2w argument, and another uses DLCs. There are 2 of them that actually gets it right outside of the dictionary entry, which is the last one "serious advantage" and the third from the top "significant advantage". Neither of those apply to WF.

You keep ignoring that other players must grind whatever you buy that grants actual power. Like I said, base frames and weapons do not give any advantage aside from skipping the grind. Mods and everything else put into the weapons and frames bring the actual power. If you buy that power, someone else must have done the grind for it as I said before. That also means that you arent actually buying an advantage over other players, since you as a buyer are already behind the curve when you purchase that item which has been ground by someone else. You arent effectively skipping ahead of anyone, you are in effect catching up. And that is if we go by your most watered down definition of P2W. This again is proof of it being nothing but p2s or p4c in order to catch up to a point where others are at already, since you cannot buy that power directly when it is introduced to the game, unlike p2w where you can buy it the second it is patched in. Yes we can buy frames and weapons like that, but those do not provide any actual power on their own, nor are they guaranteed upgrades compared to what someone else uses, since the game is again not a linear game. Only in comparison to a normal version of the frame and weapon is it a power increase, but it is not significant at that point. It can even be a straight downgrade when it comes to weapons incase the normal version has a better disposition.

I also dont refuse to play p2w game, I play them but I dont spend in them, simple as that. But there is a large difference between WF and that. The WF PvP you talk about back then was balanced however. Heck it still is to a certain point where they dont always introduce brand new items to the mode, or simply remove them if they arent tuned. You still seem hung up on a severely bugged weapon that isnt intended to work like it does in Conclave, that does not make it a P2W item. If you base it on a bug it is like I aksed before, a game suddenly shifts to P2W whenever an items is bugged if it can be purchased some way, which you said no to.

Which poster posted links to P2W? I've only seen links to "dark pattern" methods in games, which has nothing to do with P2W.

Lmao they all repeat the same concept over and over. Even though I do dislike that some use subjective terms. I wasn't biased and didn't ignore those results. I simply posted the search results that didn't include Reddit or Quora. You thought googling "pay to win definition" would throw back result after result backing your fabrications, but where are those results? Where are the dictionaries you claimed would back your misconception? Doesn't seem as though you could find any of those.

Skipping the grind IS a big part of the p2w model lol. It is part of Overwatch 2's p2w model. It is part of Immortal's p2w model and it is part of WF's p2w model. You and the other guy yapping on about how the weapons and frames bought are base forms and thus do not contribute much real power is laughable, since weapons and/or frames are pieces within the puzzle that forms a final setup that dictates how much power a setup has. I'd expect that line of thinking from a new player that doesn't really understand just how much of an increase in power a weapon, or a frame, can have on a setup, just like some new players may not fully understand how certain mods can have a massive impact on a weapon's power, but then again we clearly also have long term players who lack that insight, potentially due to spending too much time on forums to remember how the game works. Oh well.

So, was Warframe p2w when Solar Rail Conflicts were still in the game, or not?

One of the links mentions even skins can be part of a p2w game, because get this, even skins can actually grant players a gameplay advantage, such as a ghillie suit in certain shooters 🙃

Seems you didn't look into dark patterns at all with a claim like that.😂

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Lmao they all repeat the same concept over and over. Even though I do dislike that some use subjective terms. I wasn't biased and didn't ignore those results. I simply posted the search results that didn't include Reddit or Quora. You thought googling "pay to win definition" would throw back result after result backing your fabrications, but where are those results? Where are the dictionaries you claimed would back your misconception? Doesn't seem as though you could find any of those.

Skipping the grind IS a big part of the p2w model lol. It is part of Overwatch 2's p2w model. It is part of Immortal's p2w model and it is part of WF's p2w model. You and the other guy yapping on about how the weapons and frames bought are base forms and thus do not contribute much real power is laughable, since weapons and/or frames are pieces within the puzzle that forms a final setup that dictates how much power a setup has. I'd expect that line of thinking from a new player that doesn't really understand just how much of an increase in power a weapon, or a frame, can have on a setup, just like some new players may not fully understand how certain mods can have a massive impact on a weapon's power, but then again we clearly also have long term players who lack that insight, potentially due to spending too much time on forums to remember how the game works. Oh well.

So, was Warframe p2w when Solar Rail Conflicts were still in the game, or not?

One of the links mentions even skins can be part of a p2w game, because get this, even skins can actually grant players a gameplay advantage, such as a ghillie suit in certain shooters 🙃

Seems you didn't look into dark patterns at all with a claim like that.😂

OW2 isnt P2W, since accessing a new hero is not positively an advantage over others. Just as in Battlefield and Battlefront games, you must like the item you use and utilize it properly, otherwise there is no actual power in it compared to another option within that category/class. For instance, I hate Reinhardt, Mercy and McCree, they just dont fit my playstyle, but I love Ashe, Moira and Orisa because they suit my playstyle. So someone being able to access Reinhardt or the others for cash would do nothing for me, since I would never use those picks anyway in competative because I would be a liablity for my team. And since unlocking heroes are guaranteed aswell through challenges a player can target the heros they really want before every setting foot in competative. And since MMR works as it does in OW, you having access to your favorite hero on day 1 as a free player in competative would help no one, it would very likely do the opposite.

A weapon or frame is only a very minimal part, mods decide how they perform and as I said, specific mods can also decide if a prime version is worse than the normal version of a weapon. So in such a case, wouldnt that mean the game is P2L i.e pay to lose since you pay for a downgrade, giving other players an "advantage" over you? And besides that, none of the old nor new powerful weapons are accessible through the market/access. Most of them are either obtained from clan, liches/sisters or as kitguns/zaws. Plus like I said, if you buy from another player you will not have an advantage, you will just have caught up to a norm.

Nope, why would it have been P2W back then?

Those arent just skins then. Just like the armor cosmetics in BDO arent skins, since they come with a multitude of different perks aswell, like increased xp, swim speed, hiding your name and a bunch of other things directly tied to power. I'd also like to know which shooter sells a ghillie suits that actually does anything worth a damn.

Of course I do, but pay to win is just one out of several dark patterns. It can have more in it depending on how the game is set up, but dark pattern is not synonymous with p2w. You can have a single player free game with more dark patterns than a game with p2w. You can have a game with access to everything PvE for free, with great and generous mechanics, but if you wanna PvP you can buy items or face a massive grind. At that point you'd have a p2w (dark pattern) game with potential FOMO (dark pattern) of PvP items and Complete the Collection (dark pattern) which is monetized through the PvP of the game. But you would also end up with a not strict P2W game since PvE and PvP would be seperated.

[Silligoose]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

OW2 isnt P2W, since accessing a new hero is not positively an advantage over others. Just as in Battlefield and Battlefront games, you must like the item you use and utilize it properly, otherwise there is no actual power in it compared to another option within that category/class. For instance, I hate Reinhardt, Mercy and McCree, they just dont fit my playstyle, but I love Ashe, Moira and Orisa because they suit my playstyle. So someone being able to access Reinhardt or the others for cash would do nothing for me, since I would never use those picks anyway in competative because I would be a liablity for my team. And since unlocking heroes are guaranteed aswell through challenges a player can target the heros they really want before every setting foot in competative. And since MMR works as it does in OW, you having access to your favorite hero on day 1 as a free player in competative would help no one, it would very likely do the opposite.

A weapon or frame is only a very minimal part, mods decide how they perform and as I said, specific mods can also decide if a prime version is worse than the normal version of a weapon. So in such a case, wouldnt that mean the game is P2L i.e pay to lose since you pay for a downgrade, giving other players an "advantage" over you? And besides that, none of the old nor new powerful weapons are accessible through the market/access. Most of them are either obtained from clan, liches/sisters or as kitguns/zaws. Plus like I said, if you buy from another player you will not have an advantage, you will just have caught up to a norm.

We've come to the point where the subjectiveness boils down to whether someone likes the assets not available? On top of that, a p2w game may not be p2w, depending on whether a player's personal performance with purchasable assets is better or worse, regardless of whether the asset in question is overtuned? 😂 Damn those lines in the sand are getting squiggly as hell now,

Things like frames have a minimal impact on power or performance? Lmao. We have frames that, at base, with no mods, can increase weapon damage multiple times over. We have frames that not only incapacitate the vast majority of enemies, but group them into a neat little pack that can increase performance to a very high degree due to making it far, far easier and more efficient to eliminate enemies en masse. We even have a frame (Octavia Prime) that can solo SP missions, such as Survival, just by way of her abilities. No mods. No Arcanes, No Operator boons. No need for any weapons at all - I did not fire a single shot, nor did I use my melee at all and yes, I also killed the Acolyte for some SE.

Time for you to spend a little less time on the forums and a little more time in the game, because you clearly have no idea how massive an impact things like weapons and frames can have on performance at all. It is enormous. 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, why would it have been P2W back then?

Warframe had extreme grinds. Warframe had competitive pvp elements. Those grinds could be bypassed by way of real world money. Players could gain an advantage over others within pvp by having access to more power, faster.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Those arent just skins then. Just like the armor cosmetics in BDO arent skins, since they come with a multitude of different perks aswell, like increased xp, swim speed, hiding your name and a bunch of other things directly tied to power. I'd also like to know which shooter sells a ghillie suits that actually does anything worth a damn.

Purely cosmetic items, such as skins, that can be acquired by way of real world money and can give paying players an advantage over non-paying players, are p2w items. A ghillie suit that simply makes it harder for an opponent to see one due to it being used in suitable terrain (just visual, no statistical perks), is a p2w item, even though it is cosmetic only.

On 2022-11-05 at 3:42 PM, SneakyErvin said:

I've only seen links to "dark pattern" methods in games, which has nothing to do with P2W.

 

On 2022-11-05 at 5:15 PM, Silligoose said:

Seems you didn't look into dark patterns at all with a claim like that.😂

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Of course I do, but pay to win is just one out of several dark patterns. It can have more in it depending on how the game is set up, but dark pattern is not synonymous with p2w. You can have a single player free game with more dark patterns than a game with p2w. You can have a game with access to everything PvE for free, with great and generous mechanics, but if you wanna PvP you can buy items or face a massive grind. At that point you'd have a p2w (dark pattern) game with potential FOMO (dark pattern) of PvP items and Complete the Collection (dark pattern) which is monetized through the PvP of the game. But you would also end up with a not strict P2W game since PvE and PvP would be seperated.

Hang on. You went from saying dark pattern methods in games have nothing to do with p2w, to saying: "Of course I do, but pay to win is just one of several dark patterns."? You just completely contradicted yourself and flipped your view on the matter 180 degrees, but still tried to maintain that you knew what you were talking about with your original statement.

I'm going to be more serious now, because it is time for some real talk. I believe it is wise for people to be open minded regarding their viewpoints and information that may contradict those viewpoints. It is wise to allow oneself to take in new information, to truly consider the information presented and to be able to adjust one's viewpoint if merited, even if that adjustment leads to a complete 180. I see it as a good trait to have that can lead to greater wisdom, insight, growth and prosperity and I honestly hope it is a trait you nurture.

Unfortunately, another trait was showcased: It appears your pride/ego didn't allow you to concede that your previous statement was inaccurate. Instead of just conceding that, you now try to perpetuate the notion that you were right on both accounts, despite completely contradicting your previous statement. This is a negative trait you should rid yourself of. It may be due to various factors, some of which can have greater negative effects moving forward. I won't go further into the subject here, as this is simply a game's forum.

Due to the negative trait you've just shown, I'm of the opinion that even if you ever conclude that your original stance regarding what p2w constitutes was inaccurate, even to the point where it completely contradicts your original stance, you won't admit that to be the case. Instead, you will attempt to perpetuate that you were right all along anyway. Our dance has come to an end.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Silligoose said:

We've come to the point where the subjectiveness boils down to whether someone likes the assets not available? On top of that, a p2w game may not be p2w, depending on whether a player's personal performance with purchasable assets is better or worse, regardless of whether the asset in question is overtuned? 😂 Damn those lines in the sand are getting squiggly as hell now,

Things like frames have a minimal impact on power or performance? Lmao. We have frames that, at base, with no mods, can increase weapon damage multiple times over. We have frames that not only incapacitate the vast majority of enemies, but group them into a neat little pack that can increase performance to a very high degree due to making it far, far easier and more efficient to eliminate enemies en masse. We even have a frame (Octavia Prime) that can solo SP missions, such as Survival, just by way of her abilities. No mods. No Arcanes, No Operator boons. No need for any weapons at all - I did not fire a single shot, nor did I use my melee at all and yes, I also killed the Acolyte for some SE.

Time for you to spend a little less time on the forums and a little more time in the game, because you clearly have no idea how massive an impact things like weapons and frames can have on performance at all. It is enormous. 

Warframe had extreme grinds. Warframe had competitive pvp elements. Those grinds could be bypassed by way of real world money. Players could gain an advantage over others within pvp by having access to more power, faster.

Purely cosmetic items, such as skins, that can be acquired by way of real world money and can give paying players an advantage over non-paying players, are p2w items. A ghillie suit that simply makes it harder for an opponent to see one due to it being used in suitable terrain (just visual, no statistical perks), is a p2w item, even though it is cosmetic only.

 

Hang on. You went from saying dark pattern methods in games have nothing to do with p2w, to saying: "Of course I do, but pay to win is just one of several dark patterns."? You just completely contradicted yourself and flipped your view on the matter 180 degrees, but still tried to maintain that you knew what you were talking about with your original statement.

I'm going to be more serious now, because it is time for some real talk. I believe it is wise for people to be open minded regarding their viewpoints and information that may contradict those viewpoints. It is wise to allow oneself to take in new information, to truly consider the information presented and to be able to adjust one's viewpoint if merited, even if that adjustment leads to a complete 180. I see it as a good trait to have that can lead to greater wisdom, insight, growth and prosperity and I honestly hope it is a trait you nurture.

Unfortunately, another trait was showcased: It appears your pride/ego didn't allow you to concede that your previous statement was inaccurate. Instead of just conceding that, you now try to perpetuate the notion that you were right on both accounts, despite completely contradicting your previous statement. This is a negative trait you should rid yourself of. It may be due to various factors, some of which can have greater negative effects moving forward. I won't go further into the subject here, as this is simply a game's forum.

Due to the negative trait you've just shown, I'm of the opinion that even if you ever conclude that your original stance regarding what p2w constitutes was inaccurate, even to the point where it completely contradicts your original stance, you won't admit that to be the case. Instead, you will attempt to perpetuate that you were right all along anyway. Our dance has come to an end.

Maybe you should research how OW2 actually works. Competative is the mode where things matter. All new players, free or those that buy the game must both go through 50 wins in non-competative to access competative. At that same time a free player will have all heroes unlocked since due to the MMR which is based on ELO, you'll more or less need that many matches to get your 50 actual wins to move onto competative. You can also play mystery heroes during this part, where every hero is already unlocked no matter what if you wanna test all heroes and roles. It is also likely the easiest mode to get your things done in, since it randomizes heroes and roles after every death, so even if you are brand new you might end up versus a vet on a hero they really cant play. Another benefit is that there is no cap per hero/role, so even if someone else RNGs the class you might hope to try, you can access it aswell at the same time.

And how is any of that an advantage over other players? Say you bought Octavia prime and then went to solo SP. Yep, I can sure see all the other players in your solo game feeling uhm outperformed? I mean seriously man. And yeah we have frames that can incapacitate the enemy, like a Slowva or Spamshee. Oh wait, you just paid to make everything for everyone you are grouped with go slower, you just paid for worse efficiency since you have no clue about your frame or how people prefer to play the game. You see my point, buying something in WF is not a guaranteed power increase over anyone else. 

Yes they have massive impact, when modded. At base they have very little impact.

Warframe has the same grinds now, they arent massive. And what could people buy that was so powerful and so rare from other sources in the game? Care to give some examples?

Could you give an example of a game where a ghillie suit is sold that does nothing but change your cosmetic appearance?

I said one dark pattern is P2W itself, that isnt the same as P2W matching all patterns or that all games with dark patterns are P2W, or that dark patterns overall describe P2W. For instance, if someone mentions that a game is P2W alarm clocks will sound and a person will think that it probably isnt the only dark pattern in the game. However, if someone says a game has dark patterns, the first thought is not that it is P2W since that is just out of a multitude of possible patterns.

I'm not sure what part of the statement you think was incorrect. There was no direct links to anything P2W aside that small single part of the dark patterns listed, which in itself had no actual concrete self formulated thought regarding why WF would have that dark pattern either. It was just a regurgitated link to someone else opinion, similar to when people post a YT video as a discussion starter.

If P2W would change globaly in public opinion I'd follow the terminology accepted by the masses at that point. Also, what you say is very odd coming from you, since you do exactly what you imply I would do if the roles were reversed. You sit here in this thread and claim your opinion is right when it goes against the public opinion and implementation of the definition. So I guess pots and kettles, stones in glass houses and all that.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

In warframe,

Person A can play entirely free and get nearly everything in the game. It is going to take them thousands of hours and days of sitting in trade chat or with their hand stuck up in the air in maroo's bazaar, but, eventually, they can get it all (well known founder exception noted.)

Person B can spend money and just buy most things directly from the cash shop, skipping the grind for many materials, and even all the annoying quests for frames like Yareli and Nidus.

Some people here call what person B did "paying to win" because they were able to spend money to advance their character. Some others just call that "pay for convenience or skip", which, in my book, are just euphemisms for Pay to Win.

Just because there isn't any pvp of consequence, does not change the effect, and what I consider to be the main impact of the term P2W. P2W is anything that grants an advantage (be it faster acquisition of things a free player can get, or unique money-only things) over a player who has not chosen to spend money.

Very simple in my eyes.

[Zimzala]

It's almost as if things are never black and white and the world does not, in fact, fit into a bunch of pre-described boxes in a neat fashion to sppease those that don't like 'messy'.

Imagine that.

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Maybe you should research how OW2 actually works. Competative is the mode where things matter. All new players, free or those that buy the game must both go through 50 wins in non-competative to access competative. At that same time a free player will have all heroes unlocked since due to the MMR which is based on ELO, you'll more or less need that many matches to get your 50 actual wins to move onto competative. You can also play mystery heroes during this part, where every hero is already unlocked no matter what if you wanna test all heroes and roles. It is also likely the easiest mode to get your things done in, since it randomizes heroes and roles after every death, so even if you are brand new you might end up versus a vet on a hero they really cant play. Another benefit is that there is no cap per hero/role, so even if someone else RNGs the class you might hope to try, you can access it aswell at the same time.

And how is any of that an advantage over other players? Say you bought Octavia prime and then went to solo SP. Yep, I can sure see all the other players in your solo game feeling uhm outperformed? I mean seriously man. And yeah we have frames that can incapacitate the enemy, like a Slowva or Spamshee. Oh wait, you just paid to make everything for everyone you are grouped with go slower, you just paid for worse efficiency since you have no clue about your frame or how people prefer to play the game. You see my point, buying something in WF is not a guaranteed power increase over anyone else. 

Yes they have massive impact, when modded. At base they have very little impact.

Warframe has the same grinds now, they arent massive. And what could people buy that was so powerful and so rare from other sources in the game? Care to give some examples?

Could you give an example of a game where a ghillie suit is sold that does nothing but change your cosmetic appearance?

I said one dark pattern is P2W itself, that isnt the same as P2W matching all patterns or that all games with dark patterns are P2W, or that dark patterns overall describe P2W. For instance, if someone mentions that a game is P2W alarm clocks will sound and a person will think that it probably isnt the only dark pattern in the game. However, if someone says a game has dark patterns, the first thought is not that it is P2W since that is just out of a multitude of possible patterns.

I'm not sure what part of the statement you think was incorrect. There was no direct links to anything P2W aside that small single part of the dark patterns listed, which in itself had no actual concrete self formulated thought regarding why WF would have that dark pattern either. It was just a regurgitated link to someone else opinion, similar to when people post a YT video as a discussion starter.

If P2W would change globaly in public opinion I'd follow the terminology accepted by the masses at that point. Also, what you say is very odd coming from you, since you do exactly what you imply I would do if the roles were reversed. You sit here in this thread and claim your opinion is right when it goes against the public opinion and implementation of the definition. So I guess pots and kettles, stones in glass houses and all that.

I focussed a little on Warframes and their unmodded power to illustrate the foolishness of claiming Warframes have a minimal impact on power of setups, even if unmodded. Naming the potential for anti-synergistic setups that may lead to worse performance, doesn't change the nonsense claim you had made, not does it change the p2w nature of this game.

I can see you wish to continue going in circles, but at this point I'd simply be repeating myself and while it has been fascinating to see the reasoning you've used, I'm simply not interested in going in circles anymore.

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I focussed a little on Warframes and their unmodded power to illustrate the foolishness of claiming Warframes have a minimal impact on power of setups, even if unmodded. Naming the potential for anti-synergistic setups that may lead to worse performance, doesn't change the nonsense claim you had made, not does it change the p2w nature of this game.

I can see you wish to continue going in circles, but at this point I'd simply be repeating myself and while it has been fascinating to see the reasoning you've used, I'm simply not interested in going in circles anymore.

I'm not the one trying to change a definition in the end, that is you. So the going round in circles simply starts at the point where you wont accept the given definition of the term among the wider public. I'm simply saying you are wrong, which you are. And since you use your own definition of what you think p2w is, you are wrong about WF aswell as a seperate case.

2 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

In warframe,

Person A can play entirely free and get nearly everything in the game. It is going to take them thousands of hours and days of sitting in trade chat or with their hand stuck up in the air in maroo's bazaar, but, eventually, they can get it all (well known founder exception noted.)

Person B can spend money and just buy most things directly from the cash shop, skipping the grind for many materials, and even all the annoying quests for frames like Yareli and Nidus.

Some people here call what person B did "paying to win" because they were able to spend money to advance their character. Some others just call that "pay for convenience or skip", which, in my book, are just euphemisms for Pay to Win.

Just because there isn't any pvp of consequence, does not change the effect, and what I consider to be the main impact of the term P2W. P2W is anything that grants an advantage (be it faster acquisition of things a free player can get, or unique money-only things) over a player who has not chosen to spend money.

Very simple in my eyes.

The bolded parts is the problem. This isnt a "my opinion" thing, this is about a defined term.

It is kinda like a few specific countries in recent happenings calling their open enemy "terrorists" when in reality they are just enemies in all out war. It doesnt change based on opinion, it is through their actions wether or not they are actually terrorists. Same as with crimes of war, you have a defined term of what it actually is, yet a certain someone applies those laws towards foreign mercs fighting for his enemy but not when he utilizes the same methods on his own side. It isnt a matter of opinion, it either is or isnt based on definitions set by the "general public".

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Just because there isn't any pvp of consequence, does not change the effect, and what I consider to be the main impact of the term P2W. P2W is anything that grants an advantage (be it faster acquisition of things a free player can get, or unique money-only things) over a player who has not chosen to spend money.

Very simple in my eyes.

I think after 10 pages we can no longer reasonably call this question simple.

For example, I do not align with your perspective.
It, ultimately, asserts that the Developer of said game shouldn't make money for having done so.
Everyone doesn't want, care about, or feel they need cosmetics, or a massive arsenal of stuff.
A player electing to play for free should have to spend their time working for the stuff in the game. A player, electing to plug money into the game, should expect to see a return on that investment without it providing an unfair advantage.
The difference being that a free player should expect to be on the same footing with a paying player as it relates to power, progression, and advancement with both having to have worked to get there.
By being a free player you are trading your time and presence for the privelege to actually play the game. The paying player is paying money to the devs because they worked to make the game.
That's, literally, the most a Free player should expect...

The whole reason why F2P games became a thing in the first place was to entice players to try the game risk-free (that they nromally wouldn't have tried) long enough for them to be willing to plug money into the game they enjoy and to pump up concurrent player count to keep the game from feeling empty.

It seems with the subsequent generations of gamers that the concept of what F2P has moved from privilege to expectation and why it came to be has been forgotten or lost for people (and there appears to be many) to be arriving at the conclusion of P2W being an expression of equal in all things. 

That isn't, and never has been, the case.

With respect, P2W definitions like the one posed are, ostensibly, meaningless as all games fit that definition. I do not align with the opinion that all games are P2W because then P2W would have no actual meaning.