Nightwave challenges are too limiting

[PollexMessier]

I'm always really frustrated when I see one of these challenges
"Do 4 different bounties at x location"
Or
"Mine rare minerals, or fish, or animal captures at this specific location"
Basically every time one of these pops up I'm forced to do something that's completely worthless to me unless that last one is on deimos
I'm fine with bounty challenges forcing you to go to a specific location to do them, but forcing "Different" bounties is really annoying because if I want one specific reward from one specific bounty I can't target farm that reward and do the nightwave challenge at the same time. I know there's a way around this in all of the open worlds with an npc or terminal that allows you to select a different mission of the same type you were just doing, But Not the Zariman. In fact not only does the Zariman not let you run the same mission tier within a given rotation, it actually doesn't accept if you run the same mission tier on two different rotations like every other bounty challenge does ether. You have to run 4 different Tiers of zariman bounties to clear that challenge.
That little "Different" bounties caveat is incredibly annoying and shouldn't be there imo.

As for the other 3 that I've all kinda grouped together. Those should really be pretty obvious what makes them annoying. Forcing people to do these in specific locations will always result in massive swaths of players that gain absolutely nothing form them whatsoever. I have more ore, and fish, and animal tags from cetus and fortuna than I'll ever use. Every time I get those challenges they just feel like such a massive waste of time. Deimos on the other hand is pretty much always somewhat progressing you on something for doing practically anything in that area. and extra annoyingly I can't remember a single time nightwave's actually asked me to preform any of those activities on Deimos specifically. The one single area it would actually be helpful to me, and most other players.

The way these are setup feels like there's a level of intentionality to them to make them as unhelpful to the player in any way except getting nightwave standing as possible. Give us some freedom with these please. Nightwave's enough of a chore without forcing us into activities that give us nothing of value.

While we're here, asking for 4 bounties from weekly nightwave acts, but 3 missions, is really frustrating. Especially when bounties take anywhere from 10-20 minutes and most missions take between 1 and 5. There's a massive time disparity between the two. Makes the bounty one just feel like an even bigger middle finger than it already is. There's a significant amount of elite weeklies that are faster to accomplish than the 4 bounty normal weeklies even disregarding the "different" bounties requirement". In fact I'd argue nearly all of them are faster. The 4 bounties challenges are some of the longest nightwave challenges to do even with the "different" bounty requirement removed.

[Kaichi16]

nightwave is just a big excuse to not fix old content, forcing you to play it.

it's like DE is "paying" you to play something you dont want to.

i always skip those. bounties, conservation, mining, fishing, why the hell would i want to do that? for half a nightwave level? yeah, not doing it.

by the time i mine 6 rare minerals, i can open at least 10 relics and buy whatever i want with the plat i'll get from selling those items. 

[taiiat]

since you bring it up, it could perhaps be nicer if say.....

rather than "Mine a rare item 6 times on __ Landscape" - 4000pts

instead it could read:
"Mine a rare item on Landscapes. Mining on __ Landscape is worth double" - 300pts per rare Mine(double for __Landscape obv), up to a maximum of 7000pts

 

don't worry about the suggested Numbers too much, totally spitballing. the thought is just for rather than these chores to be "do this a few times, and get credit", it was like a recurring thing that you do it as much as you can be bothered doing, up to a limit. 

this would also be suitable for Nightwave to be built around not just passing the bar of reaching lv30 in a Season, but that there is actual use to completing as much as possible, for Players looking for something to do.
means that there'd kinda need to either be useful things to get past lv30, and/or the Nightwave Shop to have more useful things in it, possibly some high price (but not 'necessary') items that you'd generally only get if you were being highly, highly active.

[Drasiel]

I've complained of this exact thing before. Just let us pick any of the open worlds to get our stuff. I like the fishing and mining but hate that the game forces me to specific locations for it.

Oh and the reason you've never seen deimos come up as the location is because no acts for it actually exists. Both the POE and Vallis acts are independent unique acts.

Taiiat's suggestion would also be totally fine with me

[sunderthefirmament]

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Oh and the reason you've never seen deimos come up as the location is because no acts for it actually exists. Both the POE and Vallis acts are independent unique acts.

Yeah.  It seems like we only get the Isolation Vaults for NW bounty challenges on Deimos.

 

14 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Forcing people to do these in specific locations will always result in massive swaths of players that gain absolutely nothing form them whatsoever.

Agreed.  I would very much prefer these challenges to be condensed into "Complete X bounties" with the right-click help text pointing players towards Cetus, Fortuna, the Necralisk, or the Zariman.  The fishing, mining, and conservation ones could be similarly changed as well.  Adding serendipitous conservation on the Orb Vallis was a step in the right direction, but it didn't go far enough.

 

I get why DE has these specific places locked in, though.  It's probably supposed to lead to greater variety.  Variety doesn't mean much if the content isn't rewarding though.  And if people are playing Warframe in the first place, they probably have a higher than average tolerance for monotony and repetition.  Let us choose the location, even if we choose the same location every time.

 

Furthermore, letting us choose the location could help us avoid places that have longstanding bugs that DE seems to be incapable of fixing.  I don't like completing bounties on the Orb Vallis because I have to head back in to Fortuna every single rotation.  Why?  I'm trying to avoid that glitch that prevents "spy" consoles from being interactable on repeats.  This game has long since bloated past DE's capabilities to keep it polished and stable, so why force players to interact with content that the developers themselves have no intention of fixing?

[Drasiel]

6 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Yeah.  It seems like we only get the Isolation Vaults for NW bounty challenges on Deimos.

 

Agreed.  I would very much prefer these challenges to be condensed into "Complete X bounties" with the right-click help text pointing players towards Cetus, Fortuna, the Necralisk, or the Zariman.  The fishing, mining, and conservation ones could be similarly changed as well.  Adding serendipitous conservation on the Orb Vallis was a step in the right direction, but it didn't go far enough.

 

I get why DE has these specific places locked in, though.  It's probably supposed to lead to greater variety.  Variety doesn't mean much if the content isn't rewarding though.  And if people are playing Warframe in the first place, they probably have a higher than average tolerance for monotony and repetition.  Let us choose the location, even if we choose the same location every time.

 

Furthermore, letting us choose the location could help us avoid places that have longstanding bugs that DE seems to be incapable of fixing.  I don't like completing bounties on the Orb Vallis because I have to head back in to Fortuna every single rotation.  Why?  I'm trying to avoid that glitch that prevents "spy" consoles from being interactable on repeats.  This game has long since bloated past DE's capabilities to keep it polished and stable, so why force players to interact with content that the developers themselves have no intention of fixing?

I dunno the way warframe and randomness work together I'm not getting much variety, seems like only 1 in 5 fishing acts are for POE and It's almost always goddamn fortuna bounties. I want a break from orb vallis but goddamn nightwave always shoves me there.

[Frendh]

Fine the way it is. It populates places in a timed manner making it easier for new players to find others to join with.  Spreading it out has the opposite effect.

It is such a minor problem given the rewards.

"I only want to do things that benefit me, I do not want this challenge." It is a chore for many players, really. But still.

[Drasiel]

4 hours ago, Frendh said:

Fine the way it is. It populates places in a timed manner making it easier for new players to find others to join with.  Spreading it out has the opposite effect.

It is such a minor problem given the rewards.

"I only want to do things that benefit me, I do not want this challenge." It is a chore for many players, really. But still.

Aside from the bounty act which might be beneficial to the community, the fishing, mining, and conservations are absolutely not encouraging people to be more publicly available on specific open world because those acrs need to be done solo due to the trolling from other community members. 

You go into public free roam and other players will shoot the water so you can't fish. Try to do conservation? Someone will shoot the animals. Mining? They just have to stand in front of the rocks. To put the cherry on top you go into free roam, as host, someone joins and starts a bounty then reports you for leaching because you're not helping with the bounty. 

[Frendh]

21 hours ago, Drasiel said:

You go into public free roam and other players will shoot the water so you can't fish. Try to do conservation? Someone will shoot the animals. Mining? They just have to stand in front of the rocks. To put the cherry on top you go into free roam, as host, someone joins and starts a bounty then reports you for leaching because you're not helping with the bounty. 

It does not only affect public games. It is much easier to find people in recruit chat(PC) because they are going to do it for themselves any way. This decreases as the week progresses though.

[Drasiel]

1 minute ago, Frendh said:

It does not only affect public games. It is much easier to find people in recruit chat(PC) because they are going to do it for themselves any way. This decreases as the week progresses though.

If people are already using recruit chat there isn't much point in restricting the acts to a single open world. Especially since being in a group doesn't benefit you when you fish or mine, you only get what you catch or mine yourself.

Forcing everyone to go to the same place for conservation only has one benefit for matchmaking if you are using recruit chat: what a player wants doesn't matter so they'll go with you.

Allowing everyone to go whichever landscape they want for conservation has one negative for matchmaking if you are using recruit chat: a player who doesn't want the animals on that landscape will not ask to join.

[Frendh]

23 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

If people are already using recruit chat there isn't much point in restricting the acts to a single open world. Especially since being in a group doesn't benefit you when you fish or mine, you only get what you catch or mine yourself.

Of course it does. If there are twice as many people then it is twice as easy. Split between 3 worlds then it will be "three times" as hard.

This is really obvious when you look at radshares. First week of release it is super easy to find people for radshares. 3 months later it will often be a chore to get a full squad.

[Drasiel]

2 hours ago, Frendh said:

Of course it does. If there are twice as many people then it is twice as easy. Split between 3 worlds then it will be "three times" as hard.

This is really obvious when you look at radshares. First week of release it is super easy to find people for radshares. 3 months later it will often be a chore to get a full squad.

so to be clear you want mining, fishing, and conservation acts all limited to a single location every time even though performing those actions in a public squad will get you harassed or reported and even though two of those acts (fishing and mining) has no benefit or value for being in a squad because rewards are not shared, just so that you can find more people faster in recruiting chat for conservation?

I'm aware it's easier to find people the first week of prime access but I've never had a problem unless I've put off farming a prime for over a year and the relics have changed due to vaulting.

[Frendh]

5 hours ago, Drasiel said:

so to be clear you want mining, fishing, and conservation acts all limited to a single location every time even though performing those actions in a public squad will get you harassed or reported and even though two of those acts (fishing and mining) has no benefit or value for being in a squad because rewards are not shared, just so that you can find more people faster in recruiting chat for conservation?

There are a few people who like company.  But I think what is important is the new players. They do benefit from being in a squad.

[Drasiel]

31 minutes ago, Frendh said:

There are a few people who like company.  But I think what is important is the new players. They do benefit from being in a squad.

How do they benefit from being in a squad for mining and fishing?

[Frendh]

Just now, Drasiel said:

How do they benefit from being in a squad for mining and fishing?

Baits, being shown the good spots and help surviving first comes to mind.

[Drasiel]

6 minutes ago, Frendh said:

Baits, being shown the good spots and help surviving first comes to mind.

so the reason mid level and veteran players can't have a better system that allows flexibility is because we have to be responsible for teaching new players all about systems that should have their own optional tutorials, regardless of whether we want to or not?That seems kind of selfish. 

If you want to teach newbies how to perform these actions more power to you but I don't think that's a valid reason to make me farm another 267  charamote and synathids to add to my collection of completely uneeded fish.

[PollexMessier]

2 hours ago, Frendh said:

Baits, being shown the good spots and help surviving first comes to mind.

Your argument has several massive holes... The idea you're suggesting Essentially amounts to the specific scenario where a new player wanting to get certain materials from these tasks will... wait for a specific nightwave task to come up so they can team with someone who'll tech them how to do it and help them with it... Instead of just asking region, their clan, or looking it up and figuring it out themselves, so they can just get the materials they need when they need it themselves. Like almost everyone else who didn't have a friend walking them through the game does. Also assuming the player even starts to care about nightwave so early that they don't even know how to fish yet. Not one of multiple friends and new players I've helped get into the game even so much as mentioned nightwave to me. Understandably because they'd be way too busy progressing through the game to worry about going out of their way to do these menial tasks for rewards they know nothing about.

That's absurd. That maybe affects 0.01% of players for only the first nightwave they experience. That's not a great argument in favor inconveniencing the entire rest of the playerbase.

On the flipside this benefits new players far more than it could possibly harm them because it allows them to go farm for whatever they want or need instead of being pigeonholed into a location they don't need or want anything from.

[PollexMessier]

On 2023-01-15 at 4:11 PM, Drasiel said:

Aside from the bounty act which might be beneficial to the community, the fishing, mining, and conservations are absolutely not encouraging people to be more publicly available on specific open world because those acrs need to be done solo due to the trolling from other community members.

My suggestion to loosen up on bounties wouldn't even really harm it's current benefit in any significant way anyways, cus I said I'm fine with keeping the location of the bounty as a requirement, Any of the open world bounties pose some benefit to all players at all times with relics so you still get something besides nightwave standing out of it regardless of where it is. It's just the "different" bounties requirement I take issue with. In any of the open worlds where that would really matter for populating missions, There are ways around it with the ability to initiate alternate bounties from field npcs so it doesn't actually "help" there. It's really just an issue on the Zariman specifically where not only is that not an option, but it doesn't even seem to count doing the same tier of bounty after a refresh like every other one does. And as a late game location that's not really struggling with population issues.

None of the bounties are really tho. I almost never enter a bounty in public mode that doesn't get filled quick without nightwave's help. Cus a lot of the rewards from them are relevant through a large portion of the game. Especially now with crossplay operational and the amount of the userbase any given player can end up in a team with massively expanded. It feels more like future proofing than anything.
 

[Frendh]

12 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

That's absurd. That maybe affects 0.01% of players for only the first nightwave they experience. That's not a great argument in favor inconveniencing the entire rest of the playerbase.om.

What is absurd to me is when veteran players complain about trivial tasks they get rewarded for when there is a important minority who could use the help to stay and be part of the community.

[Drasiel]

13 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

My suggestion to loosen up on bounties wouldn't even really harm it's current benefit in any significant way anyways, cus I said I'm fine with keeping the location of the bounty as a requirement, Any of the open world bounties pose some benefit to all players at all times with relics so you still get something besides nightwave standing out of it regardless of where it is. It's just the "different" bounties requirement I take issue with. In any of the open worlds where that would really matter for populating missions, There are ways around it with the ability to initiate alternate bounties from field npcs so it doesn't actually "help" there. It's really just an issue on the Zariman specifically where not only is that not an option, but it doesn't even seem to count doing the same tier of bounty after a refresh like every other one does. And as a late game location that's not really struggling with population issues.

None of the bounties are really tho. I almost never enter a bounty in public mode that doesn't get filled quick without nightwave's help. Cus a lot of the rewards from them are relevant through a large portion of the game. Especially now with crossplay operational and the amount of the userbase any given player can end up in a team with massively expanded. It feels more like future proofing than anything.
 

I'd prefer to do bounties where I want but yeah just being able to repeat the same bounty would be more friendly to both new and veteran players alike. Although I assume the restriction was really put in place to prevent you from running just the first 3 stage bounty and clearing the act "too fast". That could be resolved more elegantly though compete 5 bounties X of which must be tier Y or higher

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

What is absurd to me is when veteran players complain about trivial tasks they get rewarded for when there is a important minority who could use the help to stay and be part of the community.

No it's absurd to place the obligation of helping new players onto veteran players. Changing the bounty only means that veterans aren't forced to the same location, any veteran who wants to help is still more than able to do so.

[PollexMessier]

6 hours ago, Frendh said:

What is absurd to me is when veteran players complain about trivial tasks they get rewarded for when there is a important minority who could use the help to stay and be part of the community.

Maybe they should just. I dunno... learn how to play the game and put the effort in to get the baits like everyone else? Like the game is designed for them to do.

It's worth noting that you don't even "need" bait to catch rare fish in the vallis (I'm not sure about the drift cus I never bothered with not using bait there). Rare fish can actually spawn in hotspots on the valis without bait. Bait just increases their spawn chance. Which means not forcing players to fish in specific locations is more accessible to new players because with the removal of that restriction there's no need to rely on another player or go through any standing grind just to complete this task.

There's no standing grind or player help necessary for mining or conservation in any location, outside of just a brief explination of the mechanics (Which is really something the game should give you but doesn't) so really the only thing you're arguing for here is just fishing. Which this change would remove the need to maintain a player population for to begin with. I have a friend that's been playing the game for a week they're perfectly capable of mining on their own. Going so far as to clear out the entire deimos map of ore veins multiple times by themselves while grinding for their necramech. They're legit more efficient at it when I'm not there helping them. And For animal captures lures aren't necessary when you can just find animals out and about without tracking them so all you need is the tranq gun to do the animal challenges.

If you're not capable of doing any of this stuff yourself without help you should probably be focusing on other parts of the game and getting acquainted with it's systems instead of worrying about nightwave challenges. Nightwave will be there for a long time, and it's rewards will always resurface eventually. It's better to learn the game at your own pace rather than rush to complete nightwave. If you're that worried about the team element you're probably not going to enjoy the game much without having actual friends that would play it with you and help you with this stuff, instead of relying on randos. And if it's that make or break for you than maybe just play a game that you enjoy more. (Not directed souly at you but also the other hypothetical players that would take this as a negative change for your given reasons)

Objectively these tasks would be more player friendly for all experience levels if they didn't have these restrictions. If you're speaking on behalf of other players you're severely underestimating people's ability to pick this stuff up, or overestimating how difficult it actually is to pick up. If you're just speaking for yourself... Chill out and take some time to learn how to play the game.

[Frendh]

On 2023-01-18 at 7:35 AM, PollexMessier said:

Chill out and take some time to learn how to play the game.

Yeah, please teach me.

On 2023-01-18 at 7:35 AM, PollexMessier said:

Objectively these tasks would be more player friendly for all experience levels if they didn't have these restrictions. 

It is a season pass where you get rewarded for doing tasks. There is nothing that says it needs to be player friendly.  Being trivial for veterans should be plenty.

 

On 2023-01-18 at 7:35 AM, PollexMessier said:

Maybe they should just. I dunno... learn how to play the game and put the effort in to get the baits like everyone else? Like the game is designed for them to do.

Telling people to learn to play the game when you yourself are asking for the game to be made convenient for things that benefit you.

[PollexMessier]

On 2023-01-19 at 2:00 AM, Frendh said:

Yeah, please teach me.

Mining: Get the mining lazer from the mining npc of Fortuna, it's the best one, the Cetus ones are a waste of standing. You can buy upgrades for this laser from the same npc. Equip it to your gear wheel, pull it out in any open world and it'll beep if there's ore nearby and mark where it is on your map, and your hud. Blue veins are gemstones, red or yellow veins are everything else. Other than that what you get from them is random. Once you find the vein, Aim at it to see the points you need to laser. As you laser a marked point a circular bar will appear that starts to fill up and you stop lasering when the bar's filled up as close to the center of the marked section of the bar as you can to get the most yield. Sometimes there'll be two marked areas, one of them smaller and near the end of the bar, hitting the smaller one will always give you a gem with a high chance of it being a rare one in addition to whatever ore the vein would've given you. Ore veins appear in larger numbers in caves or near major landmarks. Some gems will only ever drop in quantities of one no matter how good you do at the minigame, so if those are the only ones you're mining for it's a lot faster to not even bother with the minigame on blue veins and just swipe your laser across the points to mine them fast. Some people might find it faster to mine this way for everything. It definitely will be for just clearing the nightwave challenge.

Fishing: Get a spear from the fishing npc of the respective faction of the world you wanna fish in, put it on your gear wheel, and pull it out when you wanna fish same as the mining laser. All the spears work a little differently but they're not complicated to figure out except the Cetus spears which you can bypass any need to worry about learning with Volt's passive. Aim a little bit high and in the direction the fish is swimming to compensate for travel time and arc. Different fish spawn in different areas at different times of day and are affected by different bait. Just look this up on the wiki, there's nowhere in the game that tells you the exact details of every fish, and nobody cares to memorize all that. Bait is bought from the fishing npcs of each world for the types of fish in that world. Rarer fish only spawn near hotspot's which are indicated by a particle effect shown on the surface of the water which is different for each world (Ripples/splashes for the plains. Glowy and little jets of steam for the Vallis. An aurora looking thing for the Drift) and don't stay in one place for very long. Bait will only work when thrown in hotspots. The plains will not spawn rarer fish without bait, The Vallis will, I'm not sure about the Drift. Luminous dye bought from the fishing npc in Cetus will highlight fish when thrown into the water making fishing a lot easier, The sentinel Oxylus bought from the fishing npc in Fortuna will also do this along with marking hotspots on your map, Pharoma bought from the same npc as the dye will make fish less agitated when disturbing the water near them.

Animal conservation: Get the tranquilizer gun from the Fishing/animal npc in Fortuna. This is the only thing you need to clear this challenge (Ivara can actually do it without the tranq gun using sleep arrow. Equinox might be able to with their sleep ability as well I'm not sure). Same thing as the spears and lasers, gear wheel, pull it out to use it, exct. With it out and while aiming it'll beep if there's an animal nearby and highlight it in the same way scanners do. Hit the animal with 1-3 darts depending on the animal (generally bigger=more darts) without being noticed to get a perfect capture. This is much easier to do with a frame that has invisibility. There's no negative to using too many darts on a single animal besides needing to reload, so I usually just fire multiple to be on the safe side. Repeat till you clear the challenge. Some animals have a bit of a quirk like bolarolas which can only be tranqed on their belly. If you're hitting them with multiple darts and they won't go down this is probably why but very few animals are like this. Ignore the tracking indicators that appear on your map with the tranq gun equipped. You really only need to worry about those and the other conservation gear for collecting floof decorations or purposely farming son tokens from the Entrati on Deimos.

There ya go, all read up.

On 2023-01-19 at 2:00 AM, Frendh said:

It is a season pass where you get rewarded for doing tasks. There is nothing that says it needs to be player friendly.  Being trivial for veterans should be plenty.

And yet your argument against this change is that it's current state is player friendly in a different way. This statement only proves you're just being contrarian for the sake of it.

And It's not just trivial for veterans, its trivial for anyone that knows how these systems work, which anyone can figure out within a week or two of starting the game if they spend 5 minutes looking it up or just have any experience with tasks like this in rpgs at all.

On 2023-01-19 at 2:00 AM, Frendh said:

Telling people to learn to play the game when you yourself are asking for the game to be made convenient for things that benefit you.

... Your point? My suggestion comes from a place of experience of how these systems work and what would be an overall better experience, and it benefits literally everyone that plays the game, not just me. Your argument against it is "But some people don't know how to do it and don't want to bother working it out so they just wanna leech off players that did" And even for them, not being limited to what world they're allowed to clear these challenges in is still a positive.

[(PSN)ElGringoFuerte]

Il y a 1 heure, PollexMessier a dit :

Hit the animal with 1-3 darts depending on the animal (generally bigger=more darts) without being noticed to get a perfect capture. This is much easier to do with a frame that has invisibility

he can also fly over it with archwing and get close from above without being noticed 

[thetdw2000]

Don't forget the "Kill with x element" challenges that just end up either forcing you to swap some mods or are irrelevant because you're already using that element.

This is not a challenge that encourages changing up loadouts. If it were "kill 100 enemies with a sniper rifle" or "kill 100 enemies with a polearm" at least that would encourage you to perhaps try something new.