The recent fix of the Archon DR exploit show people don't actually like the fight.

[Vahenir]

8 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Heres a thought.. make some content where enemies are only vulnerable to one damage type so people have to remod weapons.

Such difficulty. People have to swap two mods around on one of their weapons before the mission so it can deal blast damage which the boss is vulnerable to.

In all seriousness this would just be an inconvenience that adds nothing to the game in terms of difficulty/engagement. Just screwing people that forgot to swap their mods over to whatever arbitrary damage type is necessary for the mission.

 

As for the actual topic of the thread:

I cant say i disagree, the way the damage attenuation works just makes these bosses a fight of finding the exploit. Get lucky with the right team setup and they drop extremely fast. Get unlucky and its a 30 minute slog of pumping lead into the archons head.

If they really need to keep damage attenuation it should at the very least be applied more evenly. Right now it renders entire weapon categories useless for no other reason than it being applied unevenly. Like bring a sniper? Any indication it shouldnt work? No, but when you hit the boss its about as effective as harsh language. But on the other hand if you bring a shotgun with the same level of damage but in a lot of pellets? Well now you one shot the archon. Why?

Edited March 4, 2023 by Vahenir

[Quest]

lol the missions are literally impossible to complete in the first place, i just get randomly one-shot and can't revive myself. this game is way too hard

[Numerounius]

For me. I'd say the system highlights a major flaw in its current state. It doesn't reward creativity and instead rewards lack thereof, a reason why I hate Kahl as well.

 

I just want it to be a fun and efficient fight. It is a boss battle it should be vs the boss. Not vs an invisible known mechanic. It should take maybe 5-10 minutes to complete it with a comfortable loadout.  One claim the system was implemented for Liches/Sisters was because the hardest hitting weapon trivialized the content: Voidrig 4. Which as a result means that practically everything else gets punished HARDER because of it. This is BY DESIGN! Not by a bug.

 

My starting solution is to add more tiers. The upper tier is way too big and way too harsh on those that isn't Voidrig 4 and getting punished just as hard. E:And maybe fix all the interactions with the fight, both the busted ones and the terrible ones. Like the Cedo Multiplier not working or the stropha's damage output being reduced to be fractions of its unmodded damage.

Edited March 22, 2023 by XHADgaming

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

3 hours ago, Quest said:

lol the missions are literally impossible to complete in the first place, i just get randomly one-shot and can't revive myself. this game is way too hard

Meanwhile I solo them during work. Such impossiblity. Much hard.

Get mods you're missing, use a different Warframe that can survive and Crowd Control/Damage and Archon Hunts turn into just another day at the office.

 Best entry level Warframe to cake walk Archon Hunts is Revenant with Mesmer Skin. Can't one shot you if you're Immortal with an army of Thralls to keep refreshing your Immortality charges. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by (PSN)FunyFlyBoy

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 23 heures, XHADgaming a dit :

My starting solution is to add more tiers. The upper tier is way too big and way too harsh on those that isn't Voidrig 4 and getting punished just as hard. 

I'm all for higher difficulty tiers.

If you don't want power creep to be a problem, design your game without power creep instead of removing the effect of theory craft on any content that is meant to be hard OR embrace it and make difficulty that involve the use of said content and is designed around it.

Edited March 7, 2023 by lukinu_u

[android3162]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:44 PM, lukinu_u said:

The title is a bit confusing but please read, it will make sense.
In case you didn't know, Update 32.3 fixed a bug allowing the player to insta kill Archon by reverting the damage reduction (more details on the spoiler below for those intersted).
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Some enemies (including Archons) use a weird "DPS based" DR, that grow stronger as your DPS is higher to ensure the fight is roughly as long no matter your DPS. However, this weird reduction could actually be reverted by dealing 0 damage (through a Riven that have -100% damage or above) which would force the DR to adapt to said damage actually INCREASE the damage instead of reducing it, which would provide ridiculously high damage number when DoT status effect and their forced 1 damage kicks in and get multiplied by millions.

Fixing a bug is a normal thing and it's all good, except Archon hunt is what made it popular and this is the part that bother me and I want to talk about.

Scarlet Spear, on April 28, 2020 introduced Condrix, the frist enemy to feature this DPS based DR and the bug have been there since that day. It's almost 3 years.
Veilbreaker, on September 7, 2022 introduced Archon Hunt, which is is about 5 months.

You can say 5 months is very long and it's just a coincidence but you can only do one Archon Hunt per week so it takes time to identify and test the exploit, so I think it's relatively short, and why was it so short ? Because people don't like Archon fight and actually needed to find a workaround.
This bug was actually usable on Condrix, Orphix, Sisters of Parvos and their hounds, but said content was well tuned and nobody felt the need to skip the boring fight, which is why almost nobody invested in negative damage Rivens until Archon Hunt release.

In short, the DR doesn't make the fight challenging but simply long and boring, to a point where people just want to skip it.
There are many possible solutions but even before talking about them because I possibly don't have the right one, I just want to mention the issue because it needs to be adressed.

Possible solutions :

•   Reveal hidden contents

  • Revisting the DPS based DR to be more forgiving. It would still reduce your DPS but lower it less, to make good builds matter more.
  • Remove status cap on Archons to encourage a wider variety of weapons (by allowing status weapons to make use of DoTs).
  • Make the weakness/resistance kicks AFTER the DR and boost them to encourage specific builds against each Archon, it don't provide that much diversity but at least encourage each player to have a specific build per Archon and brings some uniqueness to how you need to approach the fight, like Eidolons and Orbs.
  • Completely remove the DPS based DR and replace it by a ridiculously high DR that wears over time. This would reward players that can pull out large damage outputs by making the fight shorter, while still giving it the desired artificial length and reducing the gap between good and bad builds.

   

This isn't really evidence of that. No matter what the content of the fight could possibly be, people would choose to use the fastest one-shot method, regardless of how fun it is. That's just an unchanging reality of gameplay content that you play multiple times to get rewards from. So far, there was no need to use negative damage to one shot Sisters of Parvos etc etc, it was very easy to do it without rolling a riven forever in multiple ways. If negative damage made those faster/simpler, people would have exploited them too - it has nothing to do with whether the fight feels good to play.
It's not relatively short in terms of time-taken either, the community always makes exploits for even unnecessary things immediately after updates - there's even Youtube channels that are popular for their random exploit videos.

The Archon fights are far from the perfect bossfight, but like they said in the Devstreams, they were not supposed to be (yet). They're just the bare minimum it takes to have a bossfight where "not taking damage" and "modding your weapons properly" matters. It's filler content released to keep us slightly busy while they actually Work on Duviri.

Edited March 22, 2023 by android3162

[BRZZAFK]

21小时前 , android3162 说:

"modding your weapons properly"

More like modding for specific way that dev overlooked. either do it properly or not at all. as current stand damage attenuations are just adding another layer of confusion to the piles for new player that's all.

Edited March 23, 2023 by BRZZAFK

[android3162]

On 3/23/2023 at 2:37 AM, BRZZAFK said:

More like modding for specific way that dev overlooked. either do it properly or not at all. as current stand damage attenuations are just adding another layer of confusion to the piles for new player that's all.

I was not talking about exploits like using Hek to one shot the Archon. If you mod your weapon properly, as intended by Devs, you will have a balanced experience fighting the Archons. It'll feel much slower than other bosses that go down in seconds rather than minutes, but that's the point.

[Quest]

On 2023-03-05 at 10:46 PM, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy said:

Meanwhile I solo them during work. Such impossiblity. Much hard.

Get mods you're missing, use a different Warframe that can survive and Crowd Control/Damage and Archon Hunts turn into just another day at the office.

 Best entry level Warframe to cake walk Archon Hunts is Revenant with Mesmer Skin. Can't one shot you if you're Immortal with an army of Thralls to keep refreshing your Immortality charges. 

Gonna keep it real with you, I was just having a bad day when I wrote that. They are indeed another day at the office.

The position I will stand by is that most weapons seem to do negligible damage to the boss. After months of doing these, I still have no idea how they work at all. It's always either someone one-shotting the Archon's health immediately or sitting there for 20 minutes firing at its head.

[RedDirtTrooper]

On 2023-03-04 at 2:50 AM, Drasiel said:

The community calls "damage-based DR" Damage attenuation.

The very first occurrence of damage attenuation was actually the Hemocyte from the first time Plaguestar happened. Where snipers went from nearly one-shotting the heads to being weaker than fast firing lower damage weapons. It's what helped create the Titania meta for that fight.

Nope, the Hemocyte was just a copy and paste of the Lephantis fight, and that mechanic was one of the biggest complaints about Lephantis when they added it. Lots of people had highly optimized sniper rifle builds in those days, and they were basically completely invalidated by the damage reduction, since you could kill it several times faster with any poorly modded automatic weapon. It was lazy game design then, and it's still lazy game design now. If you have to artificially break the rules of your game to try and prolong a boss fight, you're doing it wrong.

[CyDuck.UA]

I personally find Archon fights annoying because after a certain hotfix they started going into this invincibility/healing state too often with just a couple of seconds window to try to damage them regardless of the number of damage you dealt to them.