Why no hydroid rework?

[quxier]

25 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

43 minutes ago, quxier said:

 

oh that, yeah that was a direct nerf, cant stay in the air forever! anyways pls ignore zephyr, ivara, titania...

Ignore any frame with infused Yareli/Aquablades, that can use most weapons (melee too but it's less good).

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

48 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

cant stay in the air forever! anyways pls ignore zephyr, ivara, titania...

I'd assume the difference is that Zephyr and Titania are designed to be airborne frames, Ivara is designed to use her abilities from dashwires, and Styanax was designed to be an all-rounder spartan who can occasionally jump into the air and throw some spears.

[TKDancer]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I'd assume the difference is that Zephyr and Titania are designed to be airborne frames, Ivara is designed to use her abilities from dashwires, and Styanax was designed to be an all-rounder spartan who can occasionally jump into the air and throw some spears.

end result is just arbitrary inconsistency and lowered DPS on styanax

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

As fair I remember it was to prevent casting repeatably Javelins (4th) and staying in the air for infinity.

That's not a reason though.  Because that "reason" also needs a reason.  Why is it a bad thing for them to stay in the air longer?

The other thing they cited was that the animations "broke" when simulcasting other abilities during.  Thing is, there's so much going on and I'm focused on aiming, so I never noticed broken animations.  I just know that it felt much more fluid to be able to cast the other abilities while using his 4.  Staying in the air longer was cool, and hurt nothing.  

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

Just now, TKDancer said:

end result is just arbitrary inconsistency and lowered DPS on styanax

The end result is removing a playstyle the devs didn't want Styanax to have, which is fine. The problem is now that Final Stand is somewhat underwhelming, and DE isn't going to follow through and buff it, so it's going to remain that way.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

As fair I remember it was to prevent casting repeatably Javelins (4th) and staying in the air for infinity.

That's not a reason though.  Because that "reason" also needs a reason.  Why is it a bad thing for them to stay in the air longer?

That's what I said. Fully agree with you.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The other thing they cited was that the animations "broke" when simulcasting other abilities during.  Thing is, there's so much going on and I'm focused on aiming, so I never noticed broken animations.  I just know that it felt much more fluid to be able to cast the other abilities while using his 4.  Staying in the air longer was cool, and hurt nothing.  

I haven't heard about animations "broke" but I have not seen it as well.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

2 hours ago, TKDancer said:

cant stay in the air forever! anyways pls ignore zephyr, ivara, titania...

I'd assume the difference is that Zephyr and Titania are designed to be airborne frames, Ivara is designed to use her abilities from dashwires, and Styanax was designed to be an all-rounder spartan who can occasionally jump into the air and throw some spears.

Just because it was designed that way doesn't mean it's good. And the funny thing is... we can still make STyanax fly, cast slash and do much more with e.g. Aquablades.

 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

24 minutes ago, quxier said:

Just because it was designed that way doesn't mean it's good.

Depends how you define "good." If good simply means whatever pleases the most players, then it probably isn't good, but neither are a lot of the changes any game makes in general. If good means it fits with how the designers intended the frame to be played, then it obviously is good, because that was the entire point of the change. Even if you don't like the Styanax nerf, there was a clear goal behind it, and it accomplished that goal for the most part. 

24 minutes ago, quxier said:

we can still make STyanax fly, cast slash and do much more with e.g. Aquablades.

You'll have to elaborate on that interaction, because I'm not aware of how it works. Either way, Helminth by its nature defies how a frame is designed to be played; you're literally taking abilities from other frames and sticking them onto someone else. There's no way to stop Helminth interactions from changing how a frame is played, which is why most Helminth nerfs are for balance reasons.

[quxier]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

38 minutes ago, quxier said:

Just because it was designed that way doesn't mean it's good.

Depends how you define "good." If good simply means whatever pleases the most players, then it probably isn't good, but neither are a lot of the changes any game makes in general

I meant "good" in general sense. Not to hard not to easy to use. Powerful enough. Versatile (e.g. you can do many stuffs not just "hit one button room dies" kind of things). So on and so forth.

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

If good means it fits with how the designers intended the frame to be played, then it obviously is good, because that was the entire point of the change. Even if you don't like the Styanax nerf, there was a clear goal behind it, and it accomplished that goal for the most part. 

I wouldn't use good for how abilities/features fit certain frames. I would use something like "how GOOD it fits".

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

40 minutes ago, quxier said:

we can still make STyanax fly, cast slash and do much more with e.g. Aquablades.

You'll have to elaborate on that interaction, because I'm not aware of how it works.

Before nerf, Styanax/4th can cast all abilities (even Helminth's afair). So 4th doing slash damage, 1 could group and 2nd armor strip. Order were not important (1-3). It basically meant that you can fly for some time and in meantime damage, armor strip and group enemies. After nerf you could just damage (slash). However you can put damaging abilities like Aquablades and you can use all abilities AND even any mechanics.

That's just basically saying "you cannot have fun with it so you have to fix stuffs yourself". It's just makes frame worse "just because".

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Either way, Helminth by its nature defies how a frame is designed to be played; you're literally taking abilities from other frames and sticking them onto someone else. There's no way to stop Helminth interactions from changing how a frame is played, which is why most Helminth nerfs are for balance reasons.

It doesn't matter if Helmint defies something. There are much better possibilities so why not let frame use some "basic form" (just let it cast 1-3 abilities)? In my opinion there is no reason aside from "just because I want it that way".

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I haven't heard about animations "broke" but I have not seen it as well.

On his release, you could cast his other abilities while in his 4.  It made sense.  Cast the 4, cast 1, cast 2, profit.  They removed that functionality citing the animations breaking.  I never noticed it, and it's much less fluid now.  I'm honestly more miffed about this than the change to not letting him stay in the air.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

The end result is removing a playstyle the devs didn't want Styanax to have, which is fine.

How does that make it fine?  I don't care what the devs want, and I have no idea why so many of you are obsessed with someone else getting what they want.  They make it.  We support it.  Game doesn't exist without either group, which means it's not just their game.  It sounds so insane to me to hear people just use "it makes the devs happy" as an excuse for literally anything the players don't like.  It's not fine, because it removes the playstyle that players DID want.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

16 minutes ago, quxier said:

In my opinion there is no reason aside from "just because I want it that way".

That's the entire point of the change. Styanax wasn't designed to spend all mission in the air, and they didn't want that to be the way people played him, so they changed it. 

16 minutes ago, quxier said:

It doesn't matter if Helmint defies something. There are much better possibilities so why not let frame use some "basic form" (just let it cast 1-3 abilities)?

Ok let me clearly draw the distinction in how I view the reasons behind buffs/nerfs/reworks:

Balancing: X gets nerfed/buffed/reworked because X is too strong/weak.

Design: X gets nerfed/buffed/reworked because X is used in a way that conflicts with how the developers want the game to be played.

Other: Everything else, mainly technical reasons, like with Gyre's 4 or Grendel's enemy limit pre-rework.

The Styanax nerf (specifically the one that made you land before recasting) is a design nerf. DE didn't want Styanax to fly around, so they removed his ability to do so.

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

How does that make it fine?  I don't care what the devs want, and I have no idea why so many of you are obsessed with someone else getting what they want.  They make it.  We support it.  Game doesn't exist without either group, which means it's not just their game.  It sounds so insane to me to hear people just use "it makes the devs happy" as an excuse for literally anything the players don't like.  It's not fine, because it removes the playstyle that players DID want.

I don't have an opinion on the Styanax nerf because I didn't use him in the way that got nerfed. If people want to dislike the nerf, go for it. However, saying there was no reason for the nerf is just wrong. They removed his ability to stay in the air because they didn't want the Spartan to hover around death glaring enemies. As long as you understand that, hate on the nerf all you want.

[quxier]

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

56 minutes ago, quxier said:

In my opinion there is no reason aside from "just because I want it that way".

That's the entire point of the change. Styanax wasn't designed to spend all mission in the air, and they didn't want that to be the way people played him, so they changed it. 

And yet his 1st still probably do some hop so it's basically the same thing as 4th but more annoying way.

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

The Styanax nerf (specifically the one that made you land before recasting) is a design nerf. DE didn't want Styanax to fly around, so they removed his ability to do so.

Sure, but you can still do that with mods, moa and other stuffs. If they don't want us to "fly" with Styanax they would have to remove access to "flying gear". And remove above "bug". Yet they didn't.

[RottedApples]

On 2023-03-12 at 9:03 AM, Zabyr said:

And what? Well, she has better armor and health. And how does this prevent you from playing Hydroid? Atlas Prime also has a lot of armor and health, does it somehow prevent you from playing Oberon or Lavos?

as an oberon fan i do not compare myself to atlas in any way, or lavos for that matter. khora can do the same things hydroid does that's why the comparison was used, lavos and atlas cannot do the same things oberon does and oberon cannot do the same things they do (lavos and atlas also probably do different things between themselves but i don't play them much)

keep my frames name out ya f- mouth. anyway jokes aside i do think hydroid needs help/a rework and i get that you love your frame, i love my frame and I personally think oberon is the best thing in the game though i know people think he needs buffs.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 3/17/2023 at 8:54 PM, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

That's the entire point of the change.

Then the "point" of the change is some arbitrary whim by a dev that is basically saying "Have fun guys!  Wait, no, not like that."  It hurt nothing but someone's ego.

[(NSW)afterHours413]

Alright people, let me tell you how to fix Hydroid, all nice and easy-like.

1: Make all the abilities max by default, no charging.

2: Make tempest barrage strip armor, 200% strength = full strip.

3: Make undertow keep enemies that are trapped in it, and make it move faster with ability strength, like Ivara's infiltrate augment. Also fix the ungodly camera angle for it.

4: Make tidal surge steerable.

5: Make tentacle swarm something that more easily ensnares enemies, so you don't have to watch them flail about; Or make the tentacles act similar to zephyr's tornadoes?

6: If you're in undertow and cast tentacle swarm, make it so undertow will always relocate the body of the kraken to your puddle, or something of that sort.

7: tidal surge + tentacle swarm and undertow should drag MASSIVE SWATHS of foes into your puddle, allowing for MASSIVE damage ramp up. tempest barrage will strip the armor of anyone inside the puddle, essentially shredding them.

An idea you could also do is make undertow something similar to oberon's hallowed ground, maybe you could hold to cast an undertow puddle that you can periodically return to?

[SafestSephiroth]

On 3/18/2023 at 8:34 PM, (NSW)afterHours413 said:

Alright people, let me tell you how to fix Hydroid, all nice and easy-like.

1: Make all the abilities max by default, no charging.

2: Make tempest barrage strip armor, 200% strength = full strip.

3: Make undertow keep enemies that are trapped in it, and make it move faster with ability strength, like Ivara's infiltrate augment. Also fix the ungodly camera angle for it.

4: Make tidal surge steerable.

5: Make tentacle swarm something that more easily ensnares enemies, so you don't have to watch them flail about; Or make the tentacles act similar to zephyr's tornadoes?

6: If you're in undertow and cast tentacle swarm, make it so undertow will always relocate the body of the kraken to your puddle, or something of that sort.

7: tidal surge + tentacle swarm and undertow should drag MASSIVE SWATHS of foes into your puddle, allowing for MASSIVE damage ramp up. tempest barrage will strip the armor of anyone inside the puddle, essentially shredding them.

An idea you could also do is make undertow something similar to oberon's hallowed ground, maybe you could hold to cast an undertow puddle that you can periodically return to?

not bad! Good ideas :D

still can't believe the line that reworks don't affect playrate but wukong was one of the least-played warframes And Then he was so very much the most played warframe they nerfed him

in what world was pre-rework wukong ever going to be that popular?