It's been over 3 years. Let us use the Universal Medallion for this or get us a better solution.

[Binket_]

... And I get it. You want people to work for the skins. I'm no stranger to this.
I have Rank 3 (Tempest) in the Conclave.
Mostly through sheer tenacity and stubbornness.
I'm aware what effort is.

The reason I preface saying this is because Conclave is absolutely miserable to play.
I have given it the "Good 'ol College Try" unlike many others who may post about this, unfortunately it is still a very arduous experience that I wish I could streamline.
... but just to recap on why it's a terrible experience:

• Balancing that makes very little sense. With no way to try these weapons out in a reliable, it often results in blind picks and praying one can figure it out.
  Stats on weapons can vary greatly and sometimes feel like they were randomly generated.
  This is leaving players often needing to build a weapon just for this one mode, often of which they aren't sure if it's worthwhile.
• Latency issues galore. Making shots that are already hard to master due to the inherent scuffed design even more frustrating to figure out.
• Aimbot does exist. Making any attempt to fight fair a moot point and victory ends up feeling hollow when most encounters give the sensation that it keeps happening.
  Getting a successful kill feels like nothing when the enemy can score ten more on you without even batting an eye.
  With how fast Warframes can be and how irksome the weapon balancing is? 
  It's very easy to get miss cues to tell if it's an aimbot, a bug, a glitch or just some really broken tactic. (I.E. Wolf Sledge)
  Especially if the party using illegal means is being cautious about accidental exposure.
  ^{I should add, pretending it doesn't exist only makes the problem worse. You can even google it yourself if you don't believe it exists, It's not hard to find and it's within the first few results. If it's that easy to find, it's that easy for them to use it, which means there IS going to be someone using it for whatever reason they see fit.  
  I shouldn't have to remind players that they risk getting rightfully banned if they choose to use it, but I will put this here anyway to make it doubly clear.}
• Design that inherently cripples players new to the mode, regardless of skill or playtime outside of Conclave.
• Since it's so rarely played by the community, not even the Wiki thinks it's worthwhile to update itself on such. Making info to help support yourself and improve and scarce resource, often at risk of being heavily outdated.
• Some mods aren't even acknowledged enough to the point where they either fail to do anything or outright detriment the user.
  Examples being ones like "Recover" which just lowers the healing from Health Orbs by 25% for... no upside to use.
  It used to give health back when you landed a kill, but it doesn't anymore for reasons I cannot find.
  Another example is "Mortal Conduct" which does nothing, since Channeling doesn't exist anymore.
• The only mode where a majority (not all) of these issues are exempt... is Lunaro.
  The one where it removes mods, weapon and Warframe choices across the board, effectively forcing everyone to fight on equal footing,
  Lunaro rarely gets players as well, usually devolving into a 1v1 scenario should somebody else run into your session. A match of which that is guaranteed to be one-sided.
• While this may not be as valid as a point to make, the tales that new players may hear of player having their Warframe accounts permanently banned for "farming Conclave standing with a friend" instills a sense of concern.
  That a very likely false positive can trigger when you're simply choosing to have casual fun with a friend certainly leaves people to leave Conclave by the wayside.
  Warframe is no stranger to incredibly broken bugs, including ones that can affect entire accounts. This is widely known.
  Late 2022 was an example of this where many PC players were falsely permanently banned over a server hiccup. While this was corrected by the staff team, it wouldn't be a huge leap of logic to say a similar occurrence can happen to a player over less in Conclave. Especially due to it's PvP nature.

I don't play Warframe to get actual physical headaches from this grind.
I didn't enjoy it at the start and- to nobody's surprise- I'm still not enjoying it despite my tenacious efforts.
I've had some cool matches in Lunaro once or twice, but that's when I was with a large group of friends and it was a spur of the moment thing.
I've hardly been able to get consistent match that makes it worthwhile to play. Even when I do, it's usually not for long. Be it somebody has to leave or someone just tired.

 

So let's put down the facts.
It's been well over 3 years since that infamous tweet about Universal Medallions and Conclave that got [DE]Steve's immediate attention.
Now, if it were for reasons besides hollow pride and excess vanity? Yeah, I'd understand to some degree.
But as far as I can see-- that's the only reason riven.
It's not reason enough. We want to enjoy your game, but this mode is- for a very, very large majority of your playerbase- just isn't worth it.
When people found Operator frustrating, it's usually because it either breaks some immersion of theirs or they simply find it obtuse to control.
However, we usually return to our Warframe rather quickly.
When people found Railjack infuriating, it was because it shipped with hundreds of very, very evident bugs.
The continued frustration lies within it's potential going untapped now, which is a topic for another post.
When people farm Necramechs, it's usually the RNG that bugs them more than anything. Also because it's required for a quest that really didn't need it unlocked.
The Necramech itself can easily be moved aside for most players. As all situations where once can use it leaves it as "optional", barring the one quest where it is required for a small portion that leaves players questioning as to why it was even needed.
When people find Waverider obtuse and pointless, it's because it feels like it's not getting much done. The problem is amplified due to it's insistence on K-Drive, a system that is outclassed by so many other transportation methods and gear.
The comic is artistically cool, but by the time players have finished the K-Drive chore-list, it's nothing but exposition that gets drowned out by their impatience. 

But those things are already made and exist.
You now lack the opportunity to change them without breaking more things in the process or have yet to find an elegant solution in a way that will be sustainable for the long-term.

Universal Medallions and Conclave is not one of those situations.
That is a setting you can add with a vendor screen and a blurb added to a choice-selection textbox.
This can be done quite easily for no- or so little that it's considered negligible- downsides.

With Universal Medallions, new players have an optional route for entry and play.
Yes, it will mean that players can get access to the Conclave Skins without ever stepping foot in it.
... But- for the sake of hypothetical examples- let's calculate how many Medallions we'd need to reach our goal without even touching the mode once.

To recap on what a Universal Medallion is:
A Universal Medallion gives 1000 Standing in any Syndicate of choice. (Except Conclave currently, which is what this post is addressing) 
It is obtained from Disruption at a 5% chance from the "C Rotation" on any applicable planet besides Mars.
While Disruption can easily repeat the C rotation multiple times in a row, it requires 3 rounds done and no more than 2 Conduits can be destroyed for it to count.
Very few Syndicates will get much use out of this and will hardly make it worthwhile to grind for this relatively obscure item.
Simaris' Sanctuary can get 1k standing from scanning just a few 10 or so unalerted enemies. Quadruple that from a Synthesis Target and an additional uncapped bonus after fully completing it.
Ventkids will grant far more standing for doing K-Drive tricks in a fraction of the time. While this is annoying to players, it's hardly enough to justify a Universal Medallion.
Ostrons/Solaris United/the Entrati all have ways of cashing in relevant items to gain standing at a much faster pace or performing helpful with varying difficulty. Not only does this provide variety to player, but does so with more potency overall.
The Quills take items that can be in a variety of locations around the Starchart for Standing, making it very little hassle to achieve the standing needed.
Vox Solaris is notoriously troublesome to gain standing for. However, the items that give such standing are usually worth far more than what the Universal Medallion is capable of.
The Holdfasts take an item strictly gained in their relevant area, be it from bounties or simply hunting stray instances of them down. However, not only can these be bartered for by using other applicable resources, but the quantity you can find of said items is vast. This is also usually taken care of by a fellow player while the rest of the squad handle the selected mission at hand.
The Six Relay Syndicates not only have their own versions of similar medallions, but gain standing passively through mission progression. While the Universal Medallion can bypass the Daily Standing limit this way, so can the respective Medallions for a given Syndicate. Syndicate Medallions are guaranteed a set amount of spawns per their respective mission whereas Universal Medallions are random drops.

The Required Amount of Universal Medallions for Conclave would be:

• 1000 standing = 1k, for clarity.
• Rank 0 to Rank 1 requires 5k standing.
• Rank 1 to Rank 2 requires 22k standing.
• Rank 2 to Rank 3 requires 44k standing.
• Rank 3 to Rank 4 requires 70k standing.
• Rank 4 to Rank 5 (max) requires 99k standing.
• For a total of 240k standing just to reach the rank required to buy the Conclave Skins.
• Each Conclave Weapon Skin requires 50k standing.
  Assuming a player wants ALL 33 Conclave Weapon Skins, that's 1650k standing.
  Well over a million, something that would take large amounts of time to do in all Syndicates as is.
• Even with a player having LR2, they can only get 32.5k standing per day in doing this.
• This requires one to spend 1890 Universal Medallions over roughly 57 days. Around 2 months worth of Medallions assuming you hit cap every day consistently.
• This not factoring the Syandana, Armor Sets, Sigils, Mods and other miscellaneous items. Only Weapon Skins.

In addition to this, other notable details include:

• Arbitrations, Sorties and Archon Hunts with Disruption won't grant the Universal Medallions. 
  This due to them either overwriting the drop table with their own or simply negating the drops entirely.
  Players would need to actively look for them in either Relic Missions or Disruption normally. Making this a dedicated objective.
• Conclave Missions are not affected by your Daily Cap, encouraging you to play the mode if you want more standing.
  You can still play Conclave for the bonus standing and get whatever you didn't finish for that day by Universal Medallions!
• The Celestia Syandana requires clearing the Conclave Missions for it's full effect.
  Players who purchase it will be unable to receive it's full effect unless they participate in conclave.
• The Riv Elite-Guard Armor Set can be bought with Platinum. The fact that this cannot be done for the other two lesser armor sets is frankly baffling.
• Exilus Warframe Adapters, Excalibur, Mag and Volt can be obtained from outside the Conclave with ease.
• While mods can be obtained from playing the mode, the pool of mods is limited and half of them are for specific weapons.
  It's very likely you'll get a mod that just isn't useful for you or is for a weapon that you don't have and can't justify using outside of the Conclave.

 

My point in illustrating this is that it would be equally respectable to those who have grinded Conclave, for the effort required here.
The prestige is not "lost" by doing this
Players will have to choose if they want to either bite the bullet and fight in the arena... or take an alternative time-consuming path.
The argument that it makes the rewards "less valuable" is frankly a moot point. It has been and it will continue to be until it is remedied or an alternative solution to it is found.

That's all I'm asking for.
Hope this is considered internally by the staff team for a bit, if all else.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

The only thing I want from Conclave is the Karak skin for my Kuva Karak, but I'm not touching PvP for that. In fact, I hate and actively avoid PvP of any kind in all games I play, so I'm very happy Warframe doesn't force PvP on us.

That said, if the skins would be purchasable for Platinum, just like the Riv Guard armor, I'd be happy to spend it.

[0bsi]

Problem is that conclave is just not enticing enough, especially for players who haven't done it before, and especially hearing that it's almost impossible to get a public match.  Even if universal medallions were usable (which I agree, they should be), it's still not incentive enough to do conclave.

[Binket_]

41 minutes ago, 0bsi said:

 Even if universal medallions were usable (which I agree, they should be), it's still not incentive enough to do conclave.

Well, the idea here is precisely that.

Not enough people have incentive to do Conclave as is.
But that's no excuse to bar Universal Medallions from use.
I'm fairly certain the persona who originally made that infamous Tweet wasn't thinking long-term... or much past "I got these, but you can't have them!"

By adding Universal Medallions, there's not only more people looking to increase it-- but there may be people looking to give it a shot once they have access to those mods that make it a tad bit more fair.

[Tyreaus]

I would personally push for trading over Universal Medallions, so that time spent in the mode is better conserved. Somebody has to spend the time to get those items, after all. And it's a little more important for Conclave to keep a playerbase, since you can't run Conclave solo, at all. You need other players for it to function. So anything that can at least try to maintain the playerbase, while also giving players who dislike PvP a "way out", is the best solution IMO.

(For that reason, I'd also suggest uncapping standing gain. You want people in the games, but if people are standing capped, they likely move on. It's only daily, but it still makes the playerbase fluctuate and diminish more than it needs to.)

[----Legacy----]

I'd advocate for Conclave to get more enticing rewards to encourage players to play it. Back when the rework was announced, some people were very liud and up in arms demanding that "If pvp gets to offer rewards these should only be cosmetics"; DE bent over backwards and went along with it, turned out cosmetic rewards aren't enticing enough and people still ask for alternative ways to get them despite having no impact on the gameplay.

8 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Some mods aren't even acknowledged enough to the point where they either fail to do anything or outright detriment the user.
Examples being ones like "Recover" which just lowers the healing from Health Orbs by 25% for... no upside to use. It used to give health back when you landed a kill, but it doesn't anymore for reasons I cannot find.

Recovering up to 150 HP on kill is definitely a huge bonus that justifies lowering the effectiveness of HP orbs. Of course, you won't get much mileage from it if you can't kill other players, but that issue isn't something DE can fix.

You may also be unable to find the reasons of the change from "heal on hit" to "heal on kill" simply because the mod has never been changed; it's been "heal on kill" since its introduction.

8 hours ago, Binket_ said:

While this may not be as valid as a point to make, the tales that new players may hear of player having their Warframe accounts permanently banned for "farming Conclave standing with a friend" instills a sense of concern.
That a very likely false positive can trigger when you're simply choosing to have casual fun with a friend certainly leaves people to leave Conclave by the wayside.
Warframe is no stranger to incredibly broken bugs, including ones that can affect entire accounts. This is widely known.

Oh yeah, i totally forgot about the bug that forces players to take turns killing each other to complete objectives and makes them to harass and insult anyone who joins the same public lobby without being affected by it (hence not engaging in the kill trading bug) over the chat. Those players being warned by support is definitely a false positive. Silly me!

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'd advocate for Conclave to get more enticing rewards to encourage players to play it. Back when the rework was announced, some people were very liud and up in arms demanding that "If pvp gets to offer rewards these should only be cosmetics"; DE bent over backwards and went along with it, turned out cosmetic rewards aren't enticing enough and people still ask for alternative ways to get them despite having no impact on the gameplay.

I don't think it'd be too controversial to at least add evergreen rewards (kuva, relics, relic openings, aya, void traces, endo even, etc.) and healthy resource gain randomized through the Starchart. We got the seldom-updated, end-of-match drop table to play with. Good potential to flood players with goodies and entice them to play, or at least make it less regrettable (i.e. less "I could've gotten all this Kuva / relics / endo / etc. instead").

I know I'd play a lot more if I could get relics and kuva and the like dumped on my face each game. And if I could bust relics each game, too? Sign me up. Fissures? What are those?

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Recovering up to 150 HP on kill is definitely a huge bonus that justifies lowering the effectiveness of HP orbs. Of course, you won't get much mileage from it if you can't kill other players, but that issue isn't something DE can fix.

You may also be unable to find the reasons of the change from "heal on hit" to "heal on kill" simply because the mod has never been changed; it's been "heal on kill" since its introduction.

I think they're talking about how the mods currently only list the -25% effectiveness from Health Orbs. So far as I can figure, it still functions, they just have a bugged description.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Tyreaus

[----Legacy----]

5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I don't think it'd be too controversial to at least add evergreen rewards (kuva, relics, relic openings, aya, void traces, endo even, etc.) and healthy resource gain randomized through the Starchart.

That kind of evergreen rewards would definitely be welcome, even more now that Steel Path Honors are capped. 

One could argue that capping them in conclave wouldn't be needed due to the syndicate standing cap serving the same purpose since the main reason why these were capped in SPH is the player ability to stockpile endless amounts of Steel Essence and use it all at once in extreme cases (at least for conclave would need to bank after reaching syndicate cap in order to farm some more).

5 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I think they're talking about how the mods currently only list the -25% effectiveness from Health Orbs. So far as I can figure, it still functions, they just have a bugged description.

Ngl, it's been so long since i last changed weapon mods in the conclave arsenal that didn't even notice the bugged descriptions.

[Binket_]

11 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I would personally push for trading over Universal Medallions, so that time spent in the mode is better conserved.

While I would be fine with this personally, DE's issue seems to stem from it being exclusive "rewards" for those have toiled for them.
That in of itself is respectable, I'm fully on board with that.

The problem is that Conclave... doesn't feel like it justifies such. That's what I was making this post for.
The old excuse they had just doesn't hold up.
Trading would open the cosmetics to all and people would still have to earn them-- but it would also fall in a similar to a lot of other "coveted items" where it's always easier to just buy them rather than farm.

Frankly put, trading means the price is up to the player. It can be anywhere from 0 Platinum to 1mil+ Platinum.
However, people are going to undercut and adjust their prices.
And at the end of the day, Platinum is extremely easy to come by when you're good at trading. No matter what, THOSE grinds (usually the ones with the fastest payout) will come out on top.

It's a fine idea on paper, but not quite the ideal solution overall.

7 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'd advocate for Conclave to get more enticing rewards to encourage players to play it.

Recovering up to 150 HP on kill is definitely a huge bonus that justifies lowering the effectiveness of HP orbs. Of course, you won't get much mileage from it if you can't kill other players, but that issue isn't something DE can fix.

While that does supplement the problem, it won't entirely solve it.
Point is, Conclave has it's players. That's fine, let them play. I have no issue with it if it's not harming anyone.
... but a lot of us find it extremely frustrating and the removal of Universal Medallions was incredibly short-sighted.

As for the HP Recovery mod, yes. I'm aware of it's PRIOR function.
However, somewhere it got that removed and it no longer provides that healing on kill.
Only giving the negative health recovery from Health Orbs.

As for the rest of that quote I snipped out... I have no idea what that is contextually.
By all means elaborate if needed.

6 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I think they're talking about how the mods currently only list the -25% effectiveness from Health Orbs. So far as I can figure, it still functions, they just have a bugged description.

If it's only the description, that'd be understandable to a degree.
However, I don't have the mod on me- as I would have to be able to afford it and be willing to buy it- so I can't verify that.
In addition, it also harkens back to much of the mode have terrible documentation. Leaving many newer players very confused.

[Tyreaus]

42 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

One could argue that capping them in conclave wouldn't be needed due to the syndicate standing cap serving the same purpose since the main reason why these were capped in SPH is the player ability to stockpile endless amounts of Steel Essence and use it all at once in extreme cases (at least for conclave would need to bank after reaching syndicate cap in order to farm some more).

TBH, I think we could do both: stockpiles in Teshin's shop the player can choose (limited by standing gain) and an end-of-match reward dump that's always available but more random. Cause the current system has a few downsides:

One, that all the rewards are capped by standing means players can run out of reasons to play Conclave—pretty quickly, in some cases. And PvP, more than PvE, really needs players. Can't solo PvP, after all.

Two, the way things work now is great if you're good at the mode. We don't need to give those low-rung players the keys to a Lexus, but you want to give them something pretty good to keep them around despite getting smashed. As above: PvP really needs players. Especially the low-skilled ones, so those new to the mode have a smoother entry.

Having end-of-round evergreen rewards gives players of all sorts of skill levels a solid reason to keep playing. And it does so without treading new ground—see Kuva Survival and how you can still go ham on that forever and ever. Selectable stockpiles in the Conclave shop is just icing on that cake.

[Pakaku]

Am I the only one who still hasn't found more than one or two medallions ever since they were added? If my luck is any indication, allowing them for use would be completely harmless...

Edited March 19, 2023 by Pakaku

[----Legacy----]

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

While that does supplement the problem, it won't entirely solve it.
Point is, Conclave has it's players. That's fine, let them play. I have no issue with it if it's not harming anyone.
... but a lot of us find it extremely frustrating and the removal of Universal Medallions was incredibly short-sighted.

I think it's worth keeping in mind that universal medallions were never removed from conclave; these were never enabled to be used in there in the first place.

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

As for the HP Recovery mod, yes. I'm aware of it's PRIOR function.
However, somewhere it got that removed and it no longer provides that healing on kill.
Only giving the negative health recovery from Health Orbs.

Are you entirely sure it's not an UI bug, as Tyreaus pointed? Last time i played the HP regen on kill function was working as intended; especially since the regen over time stops if you take any hp damage.

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

As for the rest of that quote I snipped out... I have no idea what that is contextually.
By all means elaborate if needed.

If you mean this:

11 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

20 hours ago, Binket_ said:

While this may not be as valid as a point to make, the tales that new players may hear of player having their Warframe accounts permanently banned for "farming Conclave standing with a friend" instills a sense of concern.
That a very likely false positive can trigger when you're simply choosing to have casual fun with a friend certainly leaves people to leave Conclave by the wayside.
Warframe is no stranger to incredibly broken bugs, including ones that can affect entire accounts. This is widely known.
Late 2022 was an example of this where many PC players were falsely permanently banned over a server hiccup. While this was corrected by the staff team, it wouldn't be a huge leap of logic to say a similar occurrence can happen to a player over less in Conclave. Especially due to it's PvP nature

Oh yeah, i totally forgot about the bug that forces players to take turns killing each other to complete objectives and makes them to harass and insult anyone who joins the same public lobby without being affected by it (hence not engaging in the kill trading bug) over the chat. Those players being warned by support is definitely a false positive. Silly me!

I'm pointing towards how most if not all of the players who get either banned or warned by support only tell half the story and -when it comes to conclave- normally omit the part where they were win trading when an entirely foreign player joined trying to play normally, so their response is to harass the foreign player through chat or by teaming (in ffa) trying to make them leave so they can go back to win trading.

Your post reflects on that by mentioning bugs, false positives, etc. instead as horror stories that keep players away from conclave, washing the image of players who were most likely reported to support with enough proof to grant a warning or even end up banned.

[Binket_]

7 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'm pointing towards how most if not all of the players who get either banned or warned by support only tell half the story and -when it comes to conclave- normally omit the part where they were win trading when an entirely foreign player joined trying to play normally, so their response is to harass the foreign player through chat or by teaming (in ffa) trying to make them leave so they can go back to win trading.

I imagine that was the case for some, but it can affect players who are innocent in that regard too.
Context is important and sadly it's scenarios like Conclave- due it's low traffic and being glossed over by DE- where context is often forgotten or ignored.

I wouldn't put it past an automated system or a disheveled fresh-hire to ban accounts over less.
Examples of such only serve to reinforce that it can happen.
When it can happen, it will happen if you roll the dice enough.
Conclave is rife with situations that fit that descriptor.

Eventually, you will hit the "negative jackpot" for a lack of a better word.

14 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Are you entirely sure it's not an UI bug, as Tyreaus pointed?

As I followed up:
If that is true? It's a poor way of documentation that leaves only confusion in the process.
There's a bunch of other examples as well or just simply things that are too vague in nature.

2 hours ago, Pakaku said:

Am I the only one who still hasn't found more than one or two medallions ever since they were added? If my luck is any indication, allowing them for use would be completely harmless...

Primarily why I mentioned how many it requires to do such a task.

With how many it requires and the time you'd need to even cash them all in by Medallions alone, it's starting becoming clear in perspective.
I imagine a large majority of players will probably such a task at hand and if shove whatever stray Medallions they get in there as a sort of "it's progress" mindset.

Which is perfectly fine as it stands, but as a whole? It's anything but game breaking.

24 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I think it's worth keeping in mind that universal medallions were never removed from conclave; these were never enabled to be used in there in the first place.

Still, they were very much planned- and intended- to be added.
It was only after one person mentioned it in a Tweet that Steve reconsidered the usage of them.

If anything, I'd say that's close enough if all else.
Considering that adding them back in takes equal- if not less- effort than removing them to begin with?
They may as well add it back in. There's plenty of benefits for doing so with the only reason against such is... effort.

Effort that- for the most part- is often dubiously defined at best.
I've seen other posts mentioning some "effort"-related rewards being made easier to get, yet DE is perfectly fine with those instances.
For example, Nezha being originally a Sortie Reward.
If Sorties- from way back when they were still mildly challenging content at least- can have such a notable prize moved to such an easily accessible locations as a Dojo Research?
The cracks to show in the reasoning given... and they were already quite present to begin with.

Here is the original Forums Update post that even says that Nezha was going to be a Permanent Sortie Reward.
However, just one mainline update (19.0) later... he was moved to the Dojo.
So the hard work of those who toiled in Sorties for roughly a year to obtain this Warframe was for naught, I take it?

This is less to remark on a double standard and more to show that DE can easily address this.
The problem lies either somewhere in DE's internal staffing with someone pulling some strings.
... or that such a simple fix to something that could take no more than 30 minutes- only to add it in with some other QoL functions as a hotfix- is far too much to ask for.

Either one shows a situation that isn't very bright.
I don't want to look at DE with scorn and I don't think they would like me to either.
I ask no credit, only that it's done properly.

 

[----Legacy----]

On 2023-03-19 at 5:57 AM, Binket_ said:

I imagine that was the case for some, but it can affect players who are innocent in that regard too.
Context is important and sadly it's scenarios like Conclave- due it's low traffic and being glossed over by DE- where context is often forgotten or ignored.

I wouldn't put it past an automated system or a disheveled fresh-hire to ban accounts over less.
Examples of such only serve to reinforce that it can happen.

When it can happen, it will happen if you roll the dice enough.
Conclave is rife with situations that fit that descriptor.

Eventually, you will hit the "negative jackpot" for a lack of a better word.

On 2023-03-19 at 5:57 AM, Binket_ said:

 

 

No. Players who get a ban or warning because of conclave misbehavior is because someone else saw them doing bad (like harassing in chat or win trading) and reported them with proof of it (video evidence, chat screenshots which can be verfiied by DE's internal logs, etc).

False positives are a PvE thing where players can go on and on with automated gameplay and gather humongous amounts of resources which ends up automatically flagging their sessions as suspicious and usually giving them a temporary trade ban.

Both are clearly different things, so stop mixing apples with toluene.

On 2023-03-19 at 5:57 AM, Binket_ said:

Still, they were very much planned- and intended- to be added.
It was only after one person mentioned it in a Tweet that Steve reconsidered the usage of them.

Still these were never added, so talking about a "removal" is dishonest since the only purpose of doing it is to abuse a buzzword.

That said, blaming a single player just because Steve replied to them is disingenuous when it's known that DE also checks the subreddit and lots of people in there were celebrating the removal of conclave due to the possibility of finally getting a PvE way to obtain PvP standing.

On 2023-03-19 at 5:57 AM, Binket_ said:

If anything, I'd say that's close enough if all else.
Considering that adding them back in takes equal- if not less- effort than removing them to begin with?
They may as well add it back in.

They can't add "back" something was never removed in the first place.

Seeing how conclave doesn't have an ui to exchange tokens for standing, suddenly adding one to cash in tokens obtained through PvE gameplay would have been odd, even more when not many changes were being made to conclave at the time and an old request has been giving the weekly 50K standing from challenges be through tokens instead since it's directly delivered to the player's account when the message is open, making it go to waste for players anywhere between 83K to 132K standing.

That said, I wouldn't mind universal medallions being added to conclave as long as conclave was also given a broder set of rewards, like turning conclave standing into Steel Essence, directly into end game resources (like Kuva) and of course, the 50K standing from weeklies being delivered in medallions instead (if these were universal medallions even better).

On 2023-03-19 at 5:57 AM, Binket_ said:

I've seen other posts mentioning some "effort"-related rewards being made easier to get, yet DE is perfectly fine with those instances.
For example, Nezha being originally a Sortie Reward.
If Sorties- from way back when they were still mildly challenging content at least- can have such a notable prize moved to such an easily accessible locations as a Dojo Research?
The cracks to show in the reasoning given... and they were already quite present to begin with.

You got a false equivalence in there:

>Nezha is a warframe, with mastery and a particular gameplay attached, so having just a daily attempt to get one of his parts is an arbitrary way to lock mastery and gameplay away from players which pushes towards getting the frame with platinum; this can be seen as a predatory practice and there's precedent of DE removing those.

>On the other hand, you have skins that aren't available through the market, offer no mastery progression and bear no change in how the player uses the weapon to which these belong; there's precedent of DE keeping this kind of rewards tied to specific content, sometimes even making them unobtainaible if the content through which these were obtained is removed (like Trial Sekharas)

So, once again, stop mixing apples with toluene. It's unhealthy.

Edited March 20, 2023 by ----Legacy----
Clarification and emphasis

[Binket_]

Appears we've reached a standstill there.
So I'll just manage the small fry bits before jumping to the main concern.

2 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

False positives are a PvE thing where players can go on and on with automated gameplay and gather humongous amounts of results which ends up automatically flagging their sessions as suspicious and usually giving them a temporary trade ban.

The point was that it can happen.
And I'm going to blunt, I don't trust DE when it comes to managing things like account restrictions.
Just from the number of past examples they've had... _{(that I am choosing to skip strictly so I don't hit by a DE edit hammer or worse, censorship is a "wonderful" thing isn't it?)}
... yeah, I still wouldn't put it past someone to assume some risk in there.
As they say "Caution is the better part of valor."

Besides, it's more of a "low-mid tier" priority in this whole topic.

2 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Still these were never added, so talking about a "removal" is dishonest since the only purpose of doing it is to abuse a buzzword.

As in directly added in an update? Yeah, fine.
It wasn't "removed", just cancelled.
... which in the context of concern here? It's effectively the same thing.
It was far enough along that it was a last-minute removal which means it was a hastily-made decision over potential- not absolute- outcry from a very, very small subsection of the community that- in all honesty- would probably see very, very little change in the mode overall from it. As was mentioned already.

2 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

They can't add "back" something was never even removed in the first place.
Seeing how conclave doesn't have an ui to exchange tokens for standing

That is an extremely moot point.
The UI used for such is the same for all syndicates. 
All you would have to address is adding a button onto Teshin's already existing multi-prompt box.
What it would say is "Trade Medallions for [Syndicate] Standing" with square brackets being the "Conclave" in this case.

The code is already there for the most part. If it isn't directly in there, all DE has to do is call the "Syndicate Medallion Menu" and add one for Conclave.
A majority of said code will most likely end up very similar to the Ventkids and Simaris screens of the same effect.
If anything, it's even easier to add it now compared to back than since all the possible design quirks surrounding have most likely been ironed out.

To say they "can't add it back" is on par to say "they're too stupid to"-- and as much as DE fumble in certain aspects? That's not one of them.
We're dealing with a team of humans here, while they make mistakes... I think they can manage a prebuilt menu just fine.

2 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

so having just a daily attempt to get one of his parts is an arbitrary way to lock mastery and gameplay away from players which also pushes towards getting the frame with platinum instead can be seen as a predatory practice

I'm going to excuse you on that one, since you probably didn't think that through.
Are you- and this is a genuine question- telling me that a "single attempt a day" chance at a frame part justified that?

I mean, y'know... we do have frames that tend to take "more than one day" to obtain you know.
Just ask Vox Solaris where to get Baruuk in a timely manner. Than ask Solaris United where to start.

If anything, the single-attempt a day will be the same mindset as Archon Shards.
A whole "Keep doing it, you'll get it eventually" with DE maybe scuffing the odds in our favor after a few months.

Even more frames exist that have obscenely tedious grinds that most players will bypass with Platinum.
For instance, I know I sure did buy a spare Citrine. Why? 
Because grinding anywhere else for the Platinum needed was just faster.
 ... and while I still grinded one out for Helminth, I'm not gonna stick around for ages.
The farm itself was getting on my nerves fast.
It took nearly 16 hours just to get the shards for Citrine herself, not even the weapons associated with her.
By the time I finally got her? I just said "In that time, I can grind enough random items and earn double the plat needed to buy her."
So I did that. Verbatim. I bought her and some other Deluxe Bundle I had my eyes on at the time.
I than used the constructed one from the grind to throw into Helminth.

This is also not factoring in the "exclusives" from her bundle that will taunt you until you buy it.
If you already have Citrine and a spare-- the only reason to buy that entire bundle is just the cosmetics.
Even if you gift it to another players, that's still a hefty price for just a single decoration most times. What if you want multiple of that decor?
You have to...

• Buy the bundle, skip the grind. Leaving new stuff to do behind.
• Do the grind, only to than get a useless batch of the same gear that you already have... all because you didn't buy the bundle to get the gear first.
  (This is especially annoying when there's a part of the bundle you can't get normally by just... gifting it. Essentially forcing the first option if there's remotely anything you want in it.)

... there's plenty more too in terms of "Warframes that you may as well buy if you have little patience"

• Equinox is excessively annoying by coming in what is essentially twice the amount of pieces dropped from a boss with a Forma to combine 'em once you do get the parts.
• Ash and Oberon got sent to Railjack, often to the annoyance of a lot of players I hear. Ash especially due to the Corpus nodes.
• Hell, Styanax requires several weeks to unlock, what with Kahl's Garrison having to level up a week at a time.
  Also assuming you didn't buy anything else of interest using the stock currency from running his missions.

The game has plenty of "predatory practices", but we often roll with it because it's obvious in video games that some characters/upgrades/equipment/etc. will take some unusual shifts in effort. Especially for Live-Service games as it ebbs and flows as the company watches what makes the game tick.
I can't say I like some of their grinds, but I understand that effort is to be put in for a lot of them. Some little, some lot.
A request to make a normally effort-exclusive item obtainable by a less jarring, more reliable way is hardly asking much, I'd hope.

For that matter, Styanax is only 175 Platinum and comes with a Warframe Slot and Orokin Reactor. _{(Effectively making it 135 Platinum for the Warframe alone.)}
I can make 175 Platinum very easily.
Spare Arcanes, Nightwave Tradables, useful mod drops... plenty of places to make some trading stock-- sometimes without it being intentional.
These Conclave Skins cannot be bought by Platinum. If they are to be, it would most likely be done through trading.
Which as I've mentioned in other replies, trading has fluctuating prices and/or can even be just given out for free in some cases. Nullifying the concept of "effort" entirely.
It's not unthinkable in a scenario of making it tradable for a player to have completely maxed Conclave standing, only to buy a Conclave skin so they can gift it to a friend who hasn't even stepped foot in a match, let alone have the standing required.

If we really want to say "But those are Warframes!" as a justified excuse, what about old event rewards?
Paracyst Zebra Skin from killing 100 Tar MOAs in Operation: Mutalist Incursions?
Lacera Scorn Skin from clearing 15 waves of both Corpus and Acolytes in Operation: Shadow Debt?
Fluctus Rahk Skin from completing 3 Fomorian Sabotages in Operation: Eyes of Blight?
All of these? Given right back out plenty of times. Most of the time as just filler rewards.
Personally? While I do like them coming back myself, there is a bit of sour taste in my mouth since they're just... given out with seemingly little regard.

If "the effort of work in Conclave" is what's preventing this as using DE's own reasoning... what would we need is to emulate a same- or greater- amount of effort is made to be considered "satisfactory".
However, I don't know what madman would say 1890 Universal Medallions at a 5% drop rate each from a very specific mission is "not even close" for effort.
Yes, it's not "Conclave Effort", but it still takes time. A lot of it. Time. Dedication. Effort.
All in one focused task for a single reward that most players would see as excessive. "For the tryhards" as they might put it.
I don't think anybody wants to do Ventkid's chores involving K-Drives, but you don't see the Tony Hawk-Warframe Hybrid players up in arms about it, asking to keep Ventkid rewards exclusive.

All this is said because you seem to be missing the point. I'm not talking about "exclusivity", I'm talking about effort involved for earning it.
If you want to keep Conclave things exclusive... that's a moot point, since DE has shown numerous times in numerous ways that they can change it on a whim.
Keyword: "On a whim".
Frankly put, this solution is designed for one quick and easy way for DE to make this more widely acceptable.

• Effort required to gain enough Syndicate Medallions on it's own is already massive.
• Conclave standing is still usually better to be gained through the mode itself, with ways to bypass Daily Standing Limits included.
• This provides an alternative method for players who can't seem to find Conclave lobbies.
• It will also give them access to mods that may even the playing field slightly.
  Also encouraging fresh-install newbies to wait and hone their skills a bit more before entering.
• This also gives DE an excuse to go in add extra rewards to work towards. Such as the evergeen rewards that people replied with. _{(To which this idea I very much support.)}
• This level of coding doesn't even need to change that much, nor does it need new fancy new graphics. All the things we need already exist and are very applicable with very little time spent.

In conclusion:
"If this doesn't work, I don't know what will... but unless someone can manage a better idea, this is all we're getting."

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

The point was that it can happen.
And I'm going to blunt, I don't trust DE when it comes to managing things like account restrictions.
Just from the number of past examples they've had... _{(that I am choosing to skip strictly so I don't hit by a DE edit hammer or worse, censorship is a "wonderful" thing isn't it?)}
... yeah, I still wouldn't put it past someone to assume some risk in there.
As they say "Caution is the better part of valor."

Besides, it's more of a "low-mid tier" priority in this whole topic.

And that's the issue. You're focusing on an assumptions which might as well be a conspiracy theory while i'm talking based on my own experience with those players.

Back in the day i saw plenty of players behaving as i just pointed only to later see their posts on reddit about how support warned them "for playing conclave" while entirely omitting the part where they were harassing anyone who joined "their" public lobby willing to play normally. This includes a warframe partner and a founder with moderation perms who made a video explaining how toneasily get conclave standing and started the whole deal of conclave boosting, and both of them disappeared shortly after people started being warned by support (not even banned) for doing the exact same thing as them.

With that in mind, assuming that those players were victims of a false positive is straight up hypocrisy and that's why that point cannot take flight since what makes a difference between those who got warned (or banned) usually boils down to unrelated players joining their match; plenty of those horror story posts had comments from people who recognized to be doing the same to farm conclave standing and never had any issue since nobody unknown ever joined them.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

As in directly added in an update? Yeah, fine.
It wasn't "removed", just cancelled.
... which in the context of concern here? It's effectively the same thing.
It was far enough along that it was a last-minute removal which means it was a hastily-made decision over potential- not absolute- outcry from a very, very small subsection of the community that- in all honesty- would probably see very, very little change in the mode overall from it. As was mentioned already.

Once again you focus on assumptions; just like there were PvE players who agreed to keep pvp rewards obtainable only through PvP even if it meant nevwr getting these themselves, there also are PvP players who see positive value in having universal medallions enabled in conclave, as you may have seen in this post already and i'm not talking about people who got the skins and never touched conclave again, but instead about people who remain active in conclave despite having everything it has to offer.

You keep basing your point solely on assumptions.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

That is an extremely moot point.
The UI used for such is the same for all syndicates. 
All you would have to address is adding a button onto Teshin's already existing multi-prompt box.
What it would say is "Trade Medallions for [Syndicate] Standing" with square brackets being the "Conclave" in this case.

This isn't moot when you keep in mind that conclave is the only syndicate from which you can't obtain tokens, reason why giving it an UI to redeem tokens doesn't make any sense unless it got its own tokens added. 

As you may have seen it's not about "muh development resources" as you tried to make it look.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

I'm going to excuse you on that one, since you probably didn't think that through.
Are you- and this is a genuine question- telling me that a "single attempt a day" chance at a frame part justified that?

Oh, i thought that through and yes, i think it's justified.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

I mean, y'know... we do have frames that tend to take "more than one day" to obtain you know.
Just ask Vox Solaris where to get Baruuk in a timely manner. Than ask Solaris United where to start.

And here we go mixing apples with toluene for yet another false equivalence.

Sorties have a daily limit of 1 (one), and a dilluted reward pool. In the best scenario a player could get Nezha in 3 days, but in the worst one they could have gone full weeks or months without getting that last one BP needed to complete their set and build the frame.

And you're comparing that with a progression system where, once the player reaches certain status, gets the ability to pick either BP from the rewards pool. 

It isn't about the time required to get the frame but instead about the randomness involved.

Your citrine talk won't make me change the stance in here since the grind is huge -i agree- but the way to obtain her mixes both, progression (crystals) and RNG (rotation rewards) working in tandem. Farming the plat may be faster, yes, but you won't be tied to a single daily chance to obtain what you need to build her (while possibly getting countless duplicates of the other parts) like was a possibility for Nezha back when in its days as sortie reward.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

If we really want to say "But those are Warframes!" as a justified excuse, what about old event rewards?
Paracyst Zebra Skin from killing 100 Tar MOAs in Operation: Mutalist Incursions?
Lacera Scorn Skin from clearing 15 waves of both Corpus and Acolytes in Operation: Shadow Debt?
Fluctus Rahk Skin from completing 3 Fomorian Sabotages in Operation: Eyes of Blight?
All of these? Given right back out plenty of times. Most of the time as just filler rewards.
Personally? While I do like them coming back myself, there is a bit of sour taste in my mouth since they're just... given out with seemingly little regard.

Yet another false equivalence since -as you pointed- those were all event rewards, but as such these only became available  during a brief period of time and DE eventually decided to bring them back in a different way.

On the other hand, conclave skins are there, avilable all the time to anyone who jumps into the mode. Their availability isn't over, so there's no point on asking to bring them back like the event rewards you mention.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

I don't think anybody wants to do Ventkid's chores involving K-Drives, but you don't see the Tony Hawk-Warframe Hybrid players up in arms about it, asking to keep Ventkid rewards exclusive.

I wonder if nobody asking for Ventkid rewards has anything to do with these same Ventkid rewards only having a point when doing Ventkid chores which -as you pointed- i don't think anybody wants to do either.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

All this is said because you seem to be missing the point. I'm not talking about "exclusivity", I'm talking about effort involved for earning it.

It's not about the exclusivity as you point either. It's about having something that encourages players to engage with the mode. Adding ways to bypass the mode only makes the population issue worst since now people gets an alternative way to the rewards with no need to engage with the mode.

Of course, as pointed above, i'm ok with medallions being enabled to use in conclave as long as certain conditions are met, such conclave getting evergreen rewards and Teshin's 50K standing from doing all 3 weeklies being delivered in universal medallions instead only to players above syndicate rank 3 (this last detail is important, believe it or not)

Edited March 21, 2023 by ----Legacy----
Typo

[Binket_]

Unless one of us missing something- which I don't how we could- this is simply in going in circles.

So let me rephrase, for one last attempt:
Conclave is a flawed mode. People can like it all they want, but to most? It remains just another content island, one of which that is filled to the brim with gaps and pitfalls.
This is because of it's inherent design being very difficult to grasp and even harder to get into reliably.
It may seem simple to a Frequent Conclave player, but trying to grasp anything without someone taking months to train them is nigh impossible.
I've given this mode a shot. I've genuinely tried to experience it in a way that is satisfying.
I've tried Cephalon Capture, I'm tried Team Deathmatch, I've tried Free-for-all and I've even tried Lunaro.
Each one has too many issues for it to be a fun experience. Assuming you can find a game within a relatively stable ping-range, of course.
If someone new finds them enjoying the experience, they are a VERY rare breed. We call these "outliers."
The gamemode is less toil and more tedium when you realize you are outmatched, everytime.

While it is technically fully possible to grind the required standing through sheer stubborn grit and just taking loss after loss, it's not a very fun way to do so and most players will realize it's become mentally taxing as a chore. Backing off and just ignoring the mode.
... and if the true grind you want to wish upon others is simply them becoming cannon fodder for months-- possibly years on end?
Just to get a fancy gun or a half-working Syandana?
Joining matches until they can finally find someone at a bigger disadvantage to take advantage of? All for a surplus bonus to a hollow goal?
That's something I cannot agree with. Simply put.

No player wants to constantly feel like they're designed to feed someone else's high score.
No player that is playing Conclave for what it's intended that is.

The good outweigh the bad of putting in the options for Universal Medallions. Beyond just a way to get Conclave standing.
The only thing I see- to this day- for it being against is that hollow sense of pride.
Where you have to suffer some arbitrary nonsense because... someone else did?
"Git gud" isn't even a valid response here to that. Yet I figured it's the first thing people think of when it comes to something PvP related.
When the odds are rigged so hard against you- be it by poor ranking systems, builds that you have no access to or just being on the wrong side of the internet connection- that getting better isn't even an option because you can't know where you even went wrong to begin with shows that the system is working against it's own self.
You have to "get good" to get rewarded, but getting good requires the rewards... but since you can't get the rewards, you're stuck having to struggle until you get lucky.
The only way out of the paradox of a system is either extreme tedium or blind luck. By no merit of the player itself.

By adding Universal Medallions, players who know some portion of the game can rank up and get some crucial mods in a way that isn't throwing themselves into some player who- for all we know- is a coinflip for being an aimbot user.
Yes, it means a select few will probably level up the Conclave without touching the mode once.
... but to the players who already play the mode? Frequently and well at that?
Not only will they get far more standing far faster, but the amount of effort to acquire that many Universal Medallions to even achieve a palpable amount can only be described as "excessive".
Which- as a result- would make Conclave itself still a far easier option to get the "exclusive reward" that are unique to that mode.

Now, can more rewards and systems be added to make the experience slightly more tolerable? Of course, absolutely it can!
We all know how DE updates things now. It won't get improved unless a relating function can be updated. ^{(Just look at Shade Prime)}
So, Universal Medallions that already have a set use, interface and rare source means that it's the perfect candidate for a solution that makes a lot of people happy with very few truly upset.

... or am I missing something else here?

[----Legacy----]

On 2023-03-20 at 11:50 PM, Binket_ said:

So let me rephrase, for one last attempt:
Conclave is a flawed mode.

I think the biggest flaw of conclave is being the only part of the game where game knowledge, mechanical skill and strategy must be used in tandem to win on top of being the only part in the whole game where losing is an actual possibility.

Pretty much everything else in the game is decided in the arsenal screen, failing a mission is a much harder challenge than archon hunts or endurance SP since in both a single player half asleep can carry a whole squad.

Warframe players are too used to jump in the battlefield, so the moment where they are put against other players on even terms (yes, mods make a very small difference but player skill still trumps gear choices) leaving the mechanical side of skills as the main difference ia bound to make the mode feel flawed since there's no more 99.99% damage reduction on demand with infinite energy and unlimited ammo for AoE weapon with insane explosion radius.

But when players refuse to see their own flaws, of course it's much easier to blame the game mode instead.

[Tyreaus]

3 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I think the biggest flaw of conclave is being the only part of the game where game knowledge, mechanical skill and strategy must be used in tandem to win on top of being the only part in the whole game where losing is an actual possibility.

Personally, I think the biggest flaw is that it tries too much to look like PvE.

Like, you hop into a Dog Days event and a lot is different. You still have your parkour, but your health is different, you don't have abilities, you don't have your usual arsenal, everything's wetter for some reason, and there's this lady talking in my ear and she is on something. It might not be particularly harder compared to regular PvE, but it's different enough to break expectations and preconceptions.

Meanwhile, Conclave seems like does it's darnedest to look and feel as close to PvE as possible. You have modding (which is heavily nerfed), abilities (also heavily nerfed), arenas that might look shockingly familiar to anyone playing Index, and many of the same arsenal goodies you've ever had. It's great...if you want to maintain the expectations players carry from PvE. Fine if they're actually that similar, but when they're not, you're just welcoming disappointment and frustration.

As much as we might like to blame players, at the end of the day, they're the audience. You don't win Pulitzers by blaming an audience for not liking a book; you win Pulitzers by understanding and writing for that audience. (Insofar as one can without abandoning one's core vision, of course. There's always give and take.)

[Binket_]

20 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Personally, I think the biggest flaw is that it tries too much to look like PvE.

It's that in which it loses vision of what it wants to be.

You can't make Warframe PvP while trying to emulate what Warframe already is.
Because- as people have said already- PvE is an entirely different beast that has been powercreeped so far into an extreme.
Where AFK'ing content is a norm, we're so powerful that very little can kill us once we get going.

Which means there's a lot of the systems that are- in essence- flawed.

• Modding makes those with them have advantage. Even if it's a small advantage, that's still a much larger margin compared to PvE.
• Skill often seems unparalleled when it comes to fighting others in Conclave.
  To the point where just being in line of sight at times feels like you get hit with a laser of sniper bullets.
  Often leaving players wondering "What the hell did I even do wrong? Was there anything I did wrong?"
• Your movement is very restricted from what you feel normally. 
  So while it is still fast, you're often feeling like you know where to go-- just that you can't.
• Combine with sometimes outdated or insufficient information with no way to test the differences of gear?
  You end up forced to turn to the grindstone makes fighting veteran players a nightmare even further.
  We have the Simulacrum to test such weaponry and abilities for PvE, such thing does not exist for PvP.
• "Simply use it" isn't an excuse when you can barely hold your own as is.
  If you want to say "than use what works", that just encourages people to use things that are either incredibly annoying to fight against or are just outright broken with no remorse. Which ends up making a frustrating experience for everyone involved, as vets will get tired of fighting the same kits on repeat- no matter how easy it is- that style of problem happens in more games than just Warframe.

However you put it, it's not something I'd recommend to anyone. Not even to people 100% on board with giving it a shot.
I've gotten to Rank 4 with halfway to Rank 5 now, but it wasn't by any means an enjoyable experience.
In fact, a lot of it was just running into the same players who would teabag you on a kill, ending a match with nearly 100% accuracy.
I don't care how good a player is, 100% accuracy on weapons like the Braton, Karak or similar weapons is nothing short of "sketchy".

While it's entirely possible to get the standing for the Weapon Skins, only the most determined are gonna get them.
All without enjoying a single second of it.
I only suffer through this because I know there's a method to do it with minimum effort. Usually weeklies by Lunaro and picking off the easy dailies.
It's not enjoyable for the most part, it's not even something I care to "get good" at, it's not something I going to consider bragging rights...
... I'm doing this strictly for some skins on certain weapons that don't have other options. That or the options given lack quality.

That's just my reasoning though. Other players will probably have little to none reasons for doing it and see no reason to stay in the mode.
If some players wanna cry "skill issue" at this, fine. It was never a contest of skill to begin with.
The entire grind can be done. Quite easily.
It's just anything but fun to those who aren't already dedicated to the mode entirely, one that is built to be a shadow of it's sibling.

The least we can do is stop pretending the skins are actually something with merit and just let us play the game normally.
Universal Medallions offer an option that can be an incredibly slow burn to those who don't want to put up with Conclave's myriad issues.
Nothing is lost, some to be gained, everyone is a happy camper.

[----Legacy----]

3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Conclave seems like does it's darnedest to look and feel as close to PvE as possible. You have modding (which is heavily nerfed), abilities (also heavily nerfed), arenas that might look shockingly familiar to anyone playing Index, and many of the same arsenal goodies you've ever had. 

And that's the odd thing.

In PvE players can usually win while semi afk, then expect to do the same in pvp, which of course is an expectation impossible to meet. 

That said, i'd be ok with the removal of modding; however abilities are exact same as in PvE from a mechanical point of view (biggest changes are a few effects) and given their power in PvE, of course nerfs make entire sense; same apllies to arsenal since the idea is to minimize the incidence of randomness in encounters in order to emphasize player skill instead.

3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

It's great...if you want to maintain the expectations players carry from PvE. Fine if they're actually that similar, but when they're not, you're just welcoming disappointment and frustration.

And here's the issue. PvE puts players in a power fantasy where failing a mission is a much bigger challenge than completing them

> We are able to kill or disable entire hordes of enemies by just snapping our fingers so our weapons rarely ever require to be shot.

> When we shoot them, a couple of bullets are usually enough to kill anything, and even when we need more shots enemies move slowly or can be entirely disabled, so little to no aiming is still required.

> We are unkillable machines who can facetank whatever the game throws at us, and when we can't, we have access to a plethora of ways to negate the damage or heal back up to 100% EHP almost instantly (usually both at the same time) so no need to learn how to move either.

> We might as well have endless energy in PvE so powers can be spammed mindlessly with little to no consequence for it, and something similar happens with ammo but only on levels high enough.

So you end up with PvE players who jump into PvP expectimg to be the same ubermachines of death they are in PvE even though they

-Don't know how to move

-Can't aim

-Don't know how to manage resources (ammo and energy)

Simply because these 3 concepts are key to survive in PvP, but are easily trivialized in PvE.

And then those same players blame the already toned down mobility as the reason why they can't do much in conclave and request to reduce it even further or straight up get it removed.

So yes. The issue remains on having a PvE side that's too easy (players aren't used to defeat) and trivializes key concepts for combat, hyperinflating expectations of (bad) players about themselves and leading them to (imminent) disappointment and frustration, (as you mention) after being given a reality check even by slightly better players.

Edited March 23, 2023 by ----Legacy----

[Tyreaus]

7 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The issue remains on having a PvE side that's too easy (players aren't used to defeat) and trivializes key concepts for combat, hyperinflating expectations of (bad) players about themselves and leading them to (imminent) disappointment and frustration, (as you mention) after being given a reality check even by slightly better players.

While you're not wrong, I think the root is simpler: not doing enough to break expectations when they should be. Sure, one fix for that is to create an expectation of higher difficulty in PvE and let that carry over instead. But things like Dog Days and Veilbreaker, arguably Eidolons too, show you can have wildly different experiences with different levels of difficulty. And it's not always via mechanics: aesthetics play in a lot.

Take out modding. We can agree on that. Personally I think it makes more of a headache than it's worth, especially with holster mods turning the likes of Grakata into lasers. Set up a new arsenal screen in the Conclave console. Same function, new location, new look. That alone is a big change. Change up names and looks from PvE counterparts. Nothing major: just a different HUD can go a long way, and "different" Warframes and weapons—some prefixes, maybe Conclave skins by default, or other Void-like texture overlays?—would carry different performance expectations. And we may as well have every Conclave weapon unlocked for players if modding is gone, so that'll push the different feel further. No more PvE farming to get weapons and all that.

We could go extreme and have Conclave-specific Warframes and weapons that are completely different from PvE and tailor-made for PvP, rather than just reskins with tweaked names. But I also don't think it necessary to go that far.

That's not a panacea, granted. Some will insist on expecting the same easy gameplay from _most PvE. But there's always going to be somebody who just doesn't get it no matter what you do. The goal is minimization, not elimination.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

It still blows my mind that the devs so rarely listen to any of us, but one tryhard tweets steve about how conclave is his life's only purpose (even though he wasn't even max rank, lmao) and steve just caves instantly and now we can't even slowly grind up the standing through those useless medallions.  

What's even better, is that the skins those weapons are for don't even matter to me anymore.  I wanted those Akstelleto skins so bad back when those were actually considered strong.  Now they've been not only powercrept, but actually nerfed because of status changes, to the point where they're only really decent in starchart.  So none of the skins even matter anymore.  That's how long this fight has been going.

[----Legacy----]

On 2023-03-25 at 10:59 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

It still blows my mind that the devs so rarely listen to any of us, but one tryhard tweets steve about how conclave is his life's only purpose (even though he wasn't even max rank, lmao) and steve just caves instantly and now we can't even slowly grind up the standing through those useless medallions.  

It minds my blows to see people who still think that DE bent over backwards because of a single tweet rather than having a decision already made at that point even though there's been many other times where a much bigger fuss still hasn't accomplished anything (like Hema requirements). 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

44 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

 

It minds my blows to see people who still think that DE bent over backwards because of a single tweet rather than having a decision already made at that point even though there's been many other times where a much bigger fuss still hasn't accomplished anything (like Hema requirements). 

God I wish they'd block people from posting these obnoxious gifs.  You seriously act like because you have a snarky gif in your response that you're automatically correct.  And because you're just going to respond with another, you're just going on ignore.  Less annoyance for us both, I'm sure.

Oh, and them siding with one dude making a fuss about his conclave "achievements" is literally in line with the reasoning they gave for not fixing the Hema requirements.