Making Caliban viable

[kushemon]

Caliban seems to be really underperforming in Steel Path and in general; as is evident in both his pick rate and noticable when playing him.

Here are my suggestions that would make him viable, but not broken (at least in my opinion):

1. Make his 3 (Lethal Progeny) recastable even when his aspects are still alive. Just like Nekros' 4, reseting their duration and health.

2. Make his 4 (Fusion Strike) have the same animation as his 2 (Sentient Wrath) or at least the same AOE effect that it possesses. Sending out a radial wave around Caliban that stips the armor of his enemies. To replace the grouping effect it has, it could pull the enemies struck to the centre just like Gyre's 2 (Coil Horizon). To make this grouping effect not too broken, this would only work if the enemies are already affected by his 2 (Sentient Wrath)

I don't feel like adjusting his 1 (Razor Gyre) will make any substential difference, as it will still never see any use outside of Helminth placeholder.

I feel like they wouldn't be too hard for DE to implement, but would make Caliban much more enjoyable and viable, yet not broken.
What are your thoughts on these possible changes?

[quxier]

11 minutes ago, kushemon said:

I don't feel like adjusting his 1 (Razor Gyre) will make any substential difference, as it will still never see any use outside of Helminth placeholder.

By adjusting status chance, damage & being able to cast 4th you can do a lot with slash. Here is more:

 

[kushemon]

12 minutes ago, quxier said:

By adjusting status chance, damage & being able to cast 4th you can do a lot with slash. Here is more:

 

What's your opinion on the other changes? Would it be a change for the good or nah?

[quxier]

23 minutes ago, kushemon said:

What's your opinion on the other changes? Would it be a change for the good or nah?

Yeah, they are good but imho not enough.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, kushemon said:

What are your thoughts on these possible changes?

The suggestion for his 3 is nice but it's also largely addressable through better UI elements.  And it has  much bigger problems.  Progeny blocks player movement and projectiles and they're hard to see through.  But at the same time, they often get pulled beyond a useful range.    I don't -think- their shield restore affects allies, which is something I'd love to see even at a reduced effect.  (We'll probably get it as an augment eventually. :/ )

Changing Fusion Strike's AoE shape could be helpful, but it isn't necessary.  (Interestingly it does sometimes affect targets behind Cali anyway.)  Personally I'd rather it kept its character but worked better.  Its vortex effect barely functions, too often units are untouched by its defense strip and knockdown, the fall-out field is difficult to see, and it could use a bit more base range and/or duration.

I know you didn't feel like Razor Gyre is even worth the effort to think about (honestly, I often feel the same way) but I'm surprised you didn't have any ideas for Sentient Wrath.   Do you think it's fine?  I think it needs help more than Fusion Strike, and unlike Razor Gyre just a couple of number changes and a removal of the target limit  would  do the job.  A lot of people would say just replacing the lift with a stationary CC is enough.

[Venefik]

 I wish they'd rework his 1st into some other reference to sentient units. I don't even know why his 1 mimics conculysts when he already summons these. Like, are we lacking sentient references to choose from? Hm, no, not really. We have healer sentients, shield sentients, lesser sentients, boss sentients, heavy artillery sentients, even summoner sentients. We even have sentients that love transforming into rubedo formations.

 The sentient frame looks more like the conculyst frame.

 I also would have loved if he used some type of other reference, not to any drone in specific but their technology and what not. As an example, he could deploy a mini Orphix to weaken enemies in a similar fashion that was used on warframes. It could disable the abilities of enemies in a certain radius around it, similar to Silence, and debuff the damage they deal or whatever.

 I feel like his theme wasn't really explored that much. Which is a shame, me and my friend were so hyped for the sentient frame, because we love most sentient units and gear. But I feel like he is really underwhelming in regards to the theme of sentients at least.

 Edit: Yes his 3rd should be refreshable, I agree 100% with op there. I don't mind it being expensive and have low duration if you could keep them alive forever by recasting, and keeping them up would keep all 3 of them at "the cost of one". Maybe this would even allow for an Infection build where you'd debuff enemies with his 2nd and 4th for the sentients to kill them. Maybe. I even feel like this change could open up the possibility of an augment for the sentients to scale, like stealing enemy levels over time and what not.

 Also, replacing the lifted status with another form of cc seems like a large quality of life improvement.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Venefik
I went off topic and forgot about the main discussion. Oops.

[kushemon]

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

The suggestion for his 3 is nice but it's also largely addressable through better UI elements.  And it has  much bigger problems.  Progeny blocks player movement and projectiles and they're hard to see through.  But at the same time, they often get pulled beyond a useful range.    I don't -think- their shield restore affects allies, which is something I'd love to see even at a reduced effect.  (We'll probably get it as an augment eventually. :/ )

I never noticed this, since I never encountered these problems. I mostly play solo and only really use them for cc (threat level) and their shield regen.
What you are suggesting could probably help him.

 

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Changing Fusion Strike's AoE shape could be helpful, but it isn't necessary.  (Interestingly it does sometimes affect targets behind Cali anyway.)  Personally I'd rather it kept its character but worked better. Its vortex effect barely functions, too often units are untouched by its defense strip and knockdown, the fall-out field is difficult to see, and it could use a bit more base range and/or duration.

This is because instead of the beams armor stripping, its the fallout that is created at the end of the cast. The fallout is created either at the end point of the beams or on whichever surface they were touching when you finished the cast (Wall, Ground). Meaning that you can only get the full, armor stripping, effect if you cast from mid air and aimed at the ground, so that you can actually influence where the fallout is created (but then you can't hit as many enemies with it). This is the main reason I wanted to change it to something like a wave his second ability has.

 

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I know you didn't feel like Razor Gyre is even worth the effort to think about (honestly, I often feel the same way) but I'm surprised you didn't have any ideas for Sentient Wrath.   Do you think it's fine?  I think it needs help more than Fusion Strike, and unlike Razor Gyre just a couple of number changes and a removal of the target limit  would  do the job.  A lot of people would say just replacing the lift with a stationary CC is enough.

To be honest, I don't like Razor Gyre at all. It "binds you down" and you can't shoot, slash or parkour at all while using it, which are core concepts of warframe. Using the ability feels dull and constraining, for a meager payout at that. Maybe if it was like a singe, quick cast of rotating and dealing massive slash damage around him in a single second (like atlases punch, fast, recastable) I would look upon it more favourably.

[kushemon]

2 hours ago, Venefik said:

 I wish they'd rework his 1st into some other reference to sentient units. I don't even know why his 1 mimics conculysts when he already summons these. Like, are we lacking sentient references to choose from? Hm, no, not really. We have healer sentients, shield sentients, lesser sentients, boss sentients, heavy artillery sentients, even summoner sentients. We even have sentients that love transforming into rubedo formations.

 I also would have loved if he used some type of other reference, not to any drone in specific but their technology and what not. As an example, he could deploy a mini Orphix to weaken enemies in a similar fashion that was used on warframes. It could disable the abilities of enemies in a certain radius around it, similar to Silence, and debuff the damage they deal or whatever.

This sounds like a neat idea, as long as it wouldn't restrain him to a stationary gameplay. If you're thinking of deploying the "mini orphix" and others as Wisp deploys her nodes or Citrine her crystal, that would be pretty disappointing. If the mini orphix moved along you just as the aspects do now and weakened/slowed/silenced enemies along the way, it would be a pretty rad change.

2 hours ago, Venefik said:

 Also, replacing the lifted status with another form of cc seems like a large quality of life improvement.

Definitely agree, the ragdolls are atrocious. Maybe stunning or blinding them? Perhaps that would be too op. A stagger that can lead to a grouping pull from his new 4 (as I've mentioned in the original post) would probably do the best job.

[Qriist]

On 2023-04-27 at 2:52 PM, kushemon said:

1. Make his 3 (Lethal Progeny) recastable even when his aspects are still alive. Just like Nekros' 4, reseting their duration and health.

I'd like holding the button to summon/replenish a full squad in one go, with the approriate energy cost applied.

 

There is also no reason for Caliban's summons to be timered AND killable. Pick a lane!

[PsiWarp]

Well for starters...

• Razor Gyre to ignore vacuumed pickups as obstructions to its line-of-sight. Loot blocking an ability from working properly is clearly a bug.
• Razor Gyre's transitions could be smoother, like Grendel's Pulverize letting him keep moving around while in animation.
• Enable Lethal Progeny and Fusion Strike during Razor Gyre. With their defenses stripped, even enemies in Steel Path can die to Conculyst smacks.
• When teleporting to a target in Razor Gyre, make all Conculysts do their spin attack and teleport back to Caliban to attack that target and anything else nearby.
• Make enemies glow brightly in Caliban's energy colors when Lifted by Sentient Wrath.
• Hold-cast Lethal Progeny to top-up to the 3 Conculyst cap for an extra energy cost.
• Fix Fusion Strike not visible as a client. I wanna see how large the fallout zone is.