Echoes of Duviri - Community QOL Improvements & Changes

[(PSN)EntityPendragon]

2 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

From what I remember, when adding incarnons to existing weapons was originally talked about, it was said that the goal was to make old weapons more usable, but that isn't really the case. There isn't an increase in people using the Dual Toxocyst specifically for the base weapon, the Ceramic Dagger is just the new best stat stick, Braton/Burston incarnons are clones of the Acceltra, almost every build for the original incarnons is the same based around Devouring Attrition. People aren't making unique/original builds for these weapons, its the same builds being used on the same weapons because they are the absolute best Evolutions available for those weapons in most setups. Rivens will never be able to roll some absurd stat like +5m of punch through because these weapons will always be too popular to drop low enough for something like that to be possible

Don't really matter how much more people use them. Like you said it was to make them more useable, and it definitely succeeded (Mostly).

Personally think that rivens (Excluding melees for statsticks) are almost pointless. Maybe I just haven't experimented enough but they don't grant me the OOGA BOOGA numbers that I constantly look for. Not in the meta sense but ridiculously high numbers and devastating power just fills my monkey brain with joy. Rivens are not that great at that(considering that they were intended to be bandaid mods), Incarnons definitely fit that bill. 

Also Hate was pretty good? Ceramic dagger was just for heavy attack builds wasn't it( haven't looked into it too much), I think melees as a whole needs a bit of a lookover cause the complete opposite is starting to happen like the melee 3.0 era.

[IDystopiaI]

1 hour ago, (PSN)EntityPendragon said:

Don't really matter how much more people use them. Like you said it was to make them more useable, and it definitely succeeded (Mostly).

Personally think that rivens (Excluding melees for statsticks) are almost pointless. Maybe I just haven't experimented enough but they don't grant me the OOGA BOOGA numbers that I constantly look for. Not in the meta sense but ridiculously high numbers and devastating power just fills my monkey brain with joy. Rivens are not that great at that(considering that they were intended to be bandaid mods), Incarnons definitely fit that bill. 

Also Hate was pretty good? Ceramic dagger was just for heavy attack builds wasn't it( haven't looked into it too much), I think melees as a whole needs a bit of a lookover cause the complete opposite is starting to happen like the melee 3.0 era.

The base weapon getting more use felt more artificial/only a side effect of it being associated with an Incarnon weapon, and is only something being used just to be replaced as soon as possible in a mission.

My usecase for rivens isn't to make an already strong weapon better, it's just a really slot efficent mod for patching up a weapon without sacrificing something else. Normally I wouldn't touch a mod for reducing recoil unless the weapon absolutely needed it, but on a riven as a QOL option, its worth considering if something else on the riven replaces a mod I would have normally been using, or even bundled with other QOL options like + reload speed.

Then there's my personal fun goal of making a weapon hit fire rate cap, which should be tied to the refresh rate of the game, and making it usable in content. There's nothing practical about it, it's just some random fun made possible with the extremes of riven rolls on "bad" weapons. I'm really more of an outlier in this though unless somone got a Grakata riven and decided they wanted even more fire rate for a meme buildonly used once in a while.

Hate had issues where it self-staggered the user unless they were using Primed Sure Footed, not exactly what I would consider making a weapon usable. This did get changed eventually as far as I know, but it never should have been the case to begin with. There was also the bug where if you used all of the stalker weapons, you would crash. As for the Ceramic Dagger, it had the same self stagger issues the Hate did, meaning Primed Sure Footed was a requirement for using the weapon. As far as I know, the Evolution granting Crit Chance is still bugged and applies to abilities like Shattered Lash, so it's still the best possible choice for a stat stick weapon. I never bothered to check if the same bug applied to Exalted weapons.

*I would also rather see changes actually adressing issues with a weapon, something like a mod to convert semi-auto weapons to full auto, add a slight fire rate penalty if they think its a balance issue for some reason, or even just add the option under the accessability options in settings for anyone that needs it. Not waiting around for an Incarnon version that may never come, and being months away from having access to a fix. (Incarnon shop, but I don't remember seeing prices, and I don't see a reason to buy a fix when a macro can be made when you need it to acomplish the same task. Consoles would be on their own though if that were the solution)

Edited July 26, 2023 by IDystopiaI

[(PSN)EntityPendragon]

19 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

Hate had issues where it self-staggered the user unless they were using Primed Sure Footed, not exactly what I would consider making a weapon usable. This did get changed eventually as far as I know, but it never should have been the case to begin with. There was also the bug where if you used all of the stalker weapons, you would crash. As for the Ceramic Dagger, it had the same self stagger issues the Hate did, meaning Primed Sure Footed was a requirement for using the weapon. As far as I know, the Evolution granting Crit Chance is still bugged and applies to abilities like Shattered Lash, so it's still the best possible choice for a stat stick weapon. I never bothered to check if the same bug applied to Exalted weapons

Was using hate even with it's issue before it was fixed. As an unairu player, I was having a grand time with hate. Though not as potent as gun incarnons as I wished, still fun nonetheless.

 

22 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

The base weapon getting more use felt more artificial/only a side effect of it being associated with an Incarnon weapon, and is only something being used just to be replaced as soon as possible in a mission.

Sure, but I never would have expected Burston to do what it does without incarnon form or any other weapon that adapters have touched.

[Do_High_Go]

5 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

I was responding to a joke comment about giving the Viper an incarnon, and from context I was speaking specifically about how I mod my viper for max fire rate, and not wanting it nerfed/making the base weapon nerfed just to tack on an unrelated weapon. The rant section of that comment was on topic for what was said previously.

From what I remember, when adding incarnons to existing weapons was originally talked about, it was said that the goal was to make old weapons more usable, but that isn't really the case. There isn't an increase in people using the Dual Toxocyst specifically for the base weapon, the Ceramic Dagger is just the new best stat stick, Braton/Burston incarnons are clones of the Acceltra, almost every build for the original incarnons is the same based around Devouring Attrition. People aren't making unique/original builds for these weapons, its the same builds being used on the same weapons because they are the absolute best Evolutions available for those weapons in most setups. Rivens will never be able to roll some absurd stat like +5m of punch through because these weapons will always be too popular to drop low enough for something like that to be possible.

I don't think I've seen praise towards Incarnon Melee weapons being good (ignoring the Ceramic dagger, but that weapon could only get better from its initial stats). There was no shortage of complaints about how lackluster they were though because they weren't the next meta weapons.

The incarnon system doesn't fix a weapon being propped up by Rivens when there is currently a 7 week wait for a limited selection to come back into rotation, and the bonuses from Evolutions so far don't seem to be strong enough to compensate for the reduced Riven stats. And it also seems like the wait will only get longer as more incarnons are added, which can be an issue for anyone with limited time in an already grindy game mode.

General CC from sources like Gloom, Cold and Wisp's shock motes make landing headshots extremely easy, or just take the Scourge and force your shots to become headshots as long as you are aiming high enough.

As for the funny name weapon, people guessing/asking what it is actually comes up more often than you would think. Usually its just someone randomly guessing while waiting at extraction, and the few people that did guess it correctly either just finished grinding it for fodder or were founders running their own meme builds. If you can rename any melee weapon (not sure if it's limited to zaws), then the Arca Titron probably fits the name you used the best. 

 I understand now. Your concern lies in people using weapons for the Incarnon which causes Riven Dispo to drop, rendering the Rivens not as powerful as before and disrupting your builds. It is not an invalid concern, but that is just the nature of Rivens - they are "unstable" and depending how the meta or your sense of fun shifts, sometimes unreliable in the long term.

However, I would say what @(PSN)EntityPendragon said - Incarnon perks do prop up those weapons considerably in sense of in mission performance. It is an undeniable improvement that increases the weapon viability. Often the increase is substantial enough that even if the Riven disposition drops to minimum, the difference would be also minimal.

We are currently in what I see as "transition" period - Riven rebalancing of Incarnon ready weapons has not hit YET, so there is a whole bunch of crazy stuff you can play around with while it lasts. Do not get hung up on the state of things now, nor be afraid of what the future might bring - if you want to make fun for yourself, I am sure you can find more ways when the time comes. We all have our own quirky way to make meme builds that we enjoy.

I know people sometimes ask about the weapon with wacky name, I have been asked too. Yes it is more often than one would assume, but not that often to be a core point of naming a weapon. Currently you can rename any weapon - secondary, primary and melee, it is not limited to zaws and kitguns anymore. As for my weapon, it was actually Xoris, the name is like that because when i got it, the Corpus were getting some severe whiplash and sticking to ceilings all day, made a funny impression on me idk. Since then there was a physix "optimization" and now they flop violently on the ground, which is still funny enough for me to keep the name.

Speaking of weapon names and Incarnons, there is one mutual problem there - No longer can you just name weapons the original MK1 names, so you surprise people, because now they would just think you are actually using that MK1 weapon because Incarnon perks are stronger on it, and never bat an eye on how much damage it does. Incarnons ruined the fun of bamboozling people with MK1 named weapons 😆

[Neightrix]

Really liking the indirect Frost buffs. I don't suppose we'd take the opportunity slip in a couple more things like a to buff Icy Avalanche (numerically) or Avalanche casting speed?

[AxelFlussbach]

Could we please get vaulted relic filters for the relic UI (show no/only vaulted relics)? The information is already there, yet you make us press tab on every relic to check if it's vaulted.

People have asked for this for years and made UI suggestions, yet we have gotten no developer response.

...

[IDystopiaI]

1 hour ago, Do_High_Go said:

 I understand now. Your concern lies in people using weapons for the Incarnon which causes Riven Dispo

It's closer to the Amalgam Furax Body Count situation to me, there was never really any interest in the original weapon, the weapon just ends up worse off for being associated with something only tangentially related. Although, it's ultimately not that different from what you're describing, but a weapon without the incarnon adapter installed should be decoupled from a version of it actually making use of the incarnon stat changes. I don't care what the do with the disposition on the Incarnon Variant, could start at 0.5, copy the original weapon or jump all the way up to 1.55. They don't feel unique to me, and If I've used one of them there's a good chance there's another copy/paste version of it Braton/Burston, Soma/Boltor.

Random Pocket Mesa clip because I think this is fun/funny. (talking about going for the highest fire-rate possible earlier was probably a pretty good hint as to what they were, but the Twin Grakata's might have a higher effective fire rate)

Didn't know about the Xoris interaction, my other best guess would have been the Zenistar with the bugged skin because of the Broken Bull combo, which is pretty far off from your original reasoning for that name.

Edited July 26, 2023 by IDystopiaI

[Do_High_Go]

6 hours ago, Neightrix said:

Really liking the indirect Frost buffs. I don't suppose we'd take the opportunity slip in a couple more things like a to buff Icy Avalanche (numerically) or Avalanche casting speed?

 Or simply make it scale with armor a bit, since the Globe does.

[(PSN)BdotRASS]

On 2023-07-25 at 4:49 PM, BETAOPTICS said:

Pay-to-win how? It's not more different than buying gear from the market for things you can obtain in hours regardless. Whom do you win over even?

There's no standard definition of pay-to-win, it's often used to simply describe any pay-to-avoid-actually-engaging-in-any-way-with-the-game systems.

 

The key difference is that any traded gear still requires playing the game to get mods/arcanes to make said gear endgame viable. The incarnon weapons only need the most basic of modding to be incredibly powerful.

Making incarnons purchaseable is swiftly going to end up being a new-player plat trap, which is generally bad form. 

[[DE]Taylor]

Locking this thread as these changes have now made it onto the live build!