The Rhino buffs: I am concerned, as a hardcore Rhino main, and once a revenant lover.

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 1, 2023

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

Yet it scales how far…?

So thats where your assumptions come from huh?

IDystopiaI · August 1, 2023

4 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Im telling you bud it really doesnt, the whole "infinite invulnerability" is just a huge misconception that comes from so many people misunderstanding and overvaluing what the shield gate does and just jump to assumptions that very wrong. Il say it again, you can feel free to this shield gate "abuse" yourself and you will very quickly see that it is nowhere near as op as you think it is.

At what point in this do I not effectively have "infinite invulnerability"? This goes all the way to level cap, the amount of damage taken in any single hit/1.3s interval is irrelevant and Shields + Energy are easily recovered before the previous Gate ends.

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 1, 2023

20 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

At what point in this do I not effectively have "infinite invulnerability"? This goes all the way to level cap, the amount of damage taken in any single hit/1.3s interval is irrelevant and Shields + Energy are easily recovered before the previous Gate ends.

Ok, so now do this without garuda. Yea sure theres a few frames that can shield gate better than others can, however that does not mean all frames can do the same. People like to ignore everything else about shield gating besides the invulnerability and all it leads to is ridiculous exaggerations like this.

edit:

Also, btw garuda has extra invulnerability frames while casting her abilities (aside from bloodletting) that other frames dont have.

(NSW)Greybones · August 1, 2023

9 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Ok, so now do this without garuda. Yea sure theres a few frames that can shield gate better than others can, however that does not mean all frames can do the same. People like to ignore everything else about shield gating besides the invulnerability and all it leads to is ridiculous exaggerations like this.

Just a heads up, you seem super adamant and passionate about this thing. I can respect that you really really like it regardless of what it is, so I’m going to drop out of this back and forth. I agree that DE don’t seem to be inclined to remove the synergy options presented anytime soon despite what those options do

IDystopiaI · August 1, 2023

You said not possible to be immortal which is exactly why I made that as extreme as possible. I also had some other points in another comment I made earlier, but you either didn't see it or just didn't want to answer any of them.

Why does increasing base shields, which most people would consider a buff, suddenly mean you can't survive content? Something as basic as that, which most people would consider a buff should not be hinder your survivability. Taking advantage of something like that points towards some other underlying issue being covered up, like the lack of an actual way to not instantly die. Before the addition of Overguard to enemies, CC from abilities like Bastille, or invisibility would be the only way to comfortably make it to level cap. Why is there no actual way to survive content? Instead of asking for an actual fix you just keep pushing that "Shield Gating isn't invulnerability" and ignoring everything else being said to you about why it's not good for the game as it currently is.

1 hour ago, IDystopiaI said:

Shield Gating is just hiding the fact that we are lacking survivability options in the game past a certain point, and instead of actually addressing how much damage enemies do/better survival options, abusing shield gating is being pushed as as the solution. The shield actually breaking and preventing damage from bleeding over along with the brief grace period for you to process what is actually going on isn't the issue, it's the extent this can be chained to provide immunity to all incoming damage.

If you don't believe me, here's a clip where I am effectively immortal without actually making use of survival mods outside of the ones commonly used in shield gating. There really isn't a point where I'm actually close to dying, and I even bother making use of any other survival mechanics available to me like Status, CC, or Abilities.

When abusing shield gating, actually modding for survivability is detrimental, if DE gives Augur mods/Brief Respite the same treatment as the Rakta Dark Dagger, all of my survivability is gone. If DE add a Shield aura that functions similarly to Physique, my build is useless. A Shield Blessing from a Relay might be enough to push my build to the point where I can't recover enough Shield to refresh my Shield Gate. That's how fragile a build is if it is entirely based around abusing a mechanic in a way it was not intended to be used. Survival should not go from Immortality to instantly dead just because you gained a little base shield capacity and just shows that this is a band-aid for a problem we never got an actual solution to.

DE also doesn't seem to have an answer to survivability at higher levels, short of a rework of enemy damage, which is probably why we will be stuck with Shield Gating instead of a fix for the foreseeable future. People that are against Shield Gating generally just want better changes to survivability and not something that feels like a band-aid cheesing content.

Sojufueled · August 1, 2023

I'd argue dying is very rarely a failstate in Warframe anyway. You lose when you can't DPS fast enough to protect objectives or get life support.

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 1, 2023

2 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

You said not possible to be immortal which is exactly why I made that as extreme as possible. I also had some other points in another comment earlier but you either didn't see it or just didn't want to answer any of them.

Why does increasing base shields, which most people would consider a buff, suddenly mean you can't survive content? Something as basic as that, which most people would consider a buff should not be hinder your survivability. Taking advantage of something like that points towards some other underlying issue being covered up, like the lack of an actual way to not instantly die. Before the addition of Overguard to enemies, CC from abilities like Bastille, or invisibility would be the only way to comfortably make it to level cap. Why is there no actual way to survive content? Instead of asking for an actual fix you just keep pushing that "Shield Gating isn't invulnerability" and ignoring everything else being said to you about why it's not good for the game as it currently is.

Now its one thing to talk about the lack of other survivability option and say there should be more, but to pin shield gating as the problem and that because its its so much better than all other options for lvl cap content mind you is a bit absurd considering shield gating was the answer to the lack of survivability for high lvl content prior.

IDystopiaI · August 1, 2023

45 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Now its one thing to talk about the lack of other survivability option and say there should be more, but to pin shield gating as the problem and that because its its so much better than all other options for lvl cap content mind you is a bit absurd considering shield gating was the answer to the lack of survivability for high lvl content prior.

It's always been implied that lack of survival options is the issue, and that the reliance on shield gating was a band-aid. It's also constantly brought up that "Inaros is a bad frame because it can't do level cap" because he can't shield gate. That should make it pretty obvious that there is an underlying issue with survivability. I'm also not the first person in this thread to bring this issue up.

Because you wanted it, here's another example of where you get Invulnerability from Chaining Shield Gating. It's less stand around and do nothing than the Garuda one because it's relying on Exodia Brave for energy management.

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 1, 2023

1 hour ago, IDystopiaI said:

It's always been implied that lack of survival options is the issue, and that the reliance on shield gating was a band-aid. It's also constantly brought up that "Inaros is a bad frame because it can't do level cap" because he can't shield gate. That should make it pretty obvious that there is an underlying issue with survivability. I'm also not the first person in this thread to bring this issue up.

See everyone brings up this whole "health tanking cant do lvl cap" argument and in my honest opinion its utter nonsense. 1st off hardly any player will ever get remotely close to reaching lvl cap in the 1st place and most of those dont not even get to the point where health tanking falls off so this whole lvl cap being the standard is just absurd. 2nd inaros is not a bad frame because he cant shield gate, hes a bad frame because his abilities suck, before shield gating was a thing inaros was garbage and now after it was added he is still garbage and he didnt receive the fancy new mechanic most other frames got. 3rd before shield gating was added in order to do a lvl cap run you to relay on hard ccing every single enemy at every given moment and/or hide in a corner of the map behind a frost bubble/volt shield, and let me tell it me personally I find it way more fun to be able to move around freely and cast a wide variety of abilities than hiding in one single corner of the map behind a bubble/shield.

1 hour ago, IDystopiaI said:

Because you wanted it, here's another example of where you get Invulnerability from Chaining Shield Gating. It's less stand around and do nothing than the Garuda one because it's relying on Exodia Brave for energy management.

Genuinely, nice idea however you arent actually tanking anything nor relying shield gating at that point as you are ccing everything preventing the enemies be able to shoot at you in the 1st place. Might work out decently well in an actual mission tho with the lengthy setup time would be quite risky and you would be have to be mindful of your surroundings.

Silligoose · August 1, 2023

15 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

With health tanking you use dr to reduce the time it takes for you to die giving you time to heal yourself back to full, with shield gating you use the 1.3 gate to reduce the time it takes for you to die giving you time to fully restore your shields back to full. Tell me what exactly so different about the two.

The upper limit of performance in terms of durability players can realistically attain via health tanking is set ie there is a point at which health tanking (and healing of said health) will be overwhelmed, be it by way of initial damage exceeding total health, or DPS exceeding healing capabilities.

The upper limit of performance in terms of durability players can realistically attain via Shield Gating builds doesn't exist - there is no limit. There is no point one can reach where it will no longer work and due to how it functions and the game's mechanics, there never will be one. No amount of damage output from enemies, by way of burst or sustained damage, can kill a player as long as the Shield Gating mechanic can be used. The only way to kill a player that uses a Shield Gating tactic proficiently is to prevent them from using it, or to bypass it.

15 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

The dude literally took damage during that clip you showed took a few hits to his health and only survived because they were only lvl 117, not only that but the molt decoy was doing all the work and not the shield gating thats why I said it was a bad showcase.

He shows his build has Adaptation so he can take a shot to make it more comfy for encouraged content (SP up to rotation C), but the main source of survivability in that build is the Shield Gating mechanic - you can see how fast the health drops prior to Shield Gating being activated.

15 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

So answer me this, is it more active to press a button to restore your shields every time they break or to one button at the start then never care again? Tell how that gameplay was more active playing than inaros. Also you never answered my question in my last post which was, if you fall under half health would you or would you not press a button to health back to full either via ability or other source?

You keep trying to ignore the actual talking points and trying to divert away from them, especially when I've shown some of the statements you made to be incorrect. The point of contention isn't whether some Shield Gating builds tend to have more active playstyles as compared to some non-Shield Gating builds, but rather you putting forth this idea that Shield Gating builds necessitate a "hyper active" playstyle, which they don't. I've already provided you with an example of that and that example didn't even make use of the stronger cc options we have available.

To answer your question: It depends on the loadout, the content I'm doing and the situation I'm in when health falls below half.

15 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

I feel This video does a good job of going over what exactly shield gating is in comparison to health tanking, I encourage you watch through it all.

I like some of that creator's videos. They do a lot of research and effort and can help broaden one's knowledge on the game, but there isn't really anything I'm not aware of in this specific video. Biggest issue for me is that while he likes to focus on the positives of Shield Gating, he doesn't seem to consider the negative impact it has, which is what you are doing as well.

You praise a mechanic that fails in its primary function (it does NOT prevent all one-shots), whilst also bringing about a myriad of imbalances. In its current state it is not a good mechanic. The more active, more reactive playstyle it encourages could have been attained by way of better balancing of the game, specifically in terms of comparative frame durability, which would've left the game in a much healthier state.

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 1, 2023

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

The only way to kill a player that uses a Shield Gating tactic proficiently is to prevent them from using it, or to bypass it.

If you run out of energy in a shield gate build you die. Stop ignoring that. In a shield gate build you are turning your energy into another health bar, you are not magically invincible.

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

He shows his build has Adaptation so he can take a shot to make it more comfy for encouraged content (SP up to rotation C), but the main source of survivability in that build is the Shield Gating mechanic - you can see how fast the health drops prior to Shield Gating being activated.

The fact is he took damage. If shield gating supposedly makes completely invulnerable than how did he take any damage at all.

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

You keep trying to ignore the actual talking points and trying to divert away from them, especially when I've shown some of the statements you made to be incorrect. The point of contention isn't whether some Shield Gating builds tend to have more active playstyles as compared to some non-Shield Gating builds, but rather you putting forth this idea that Shield Gating builds necessitate a "hyper active" playstyle, which they don't. I've already provided you with an example of that and that example didn't even make use of the stronger cc options we have available.

Again, the video you linked the dude was using molt which is a very strong cc as it draws in enemy aggro meaning much less chance of you being shot as long stand in the way. You also ignore the fact that cast of molt to refresh the shield gate so if you where to put yourself in a situation like this where you spam your abilities that much to face tank you will out of energy extremely fast. The fact is every time you take a hit in a shield gate build to a forced to react to it or the next one kills you yet you ignore this.

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

I like some of that creator's videos. They do a lot of research and effort and can help broaden one's knowledge on the game, but there isn't really anything I'm not aware of in this specific video. Biggest issue for me is that while he likes to focus on the positives of Shield Gating, he doesn't seem to consider the negative impact it has, which is what you are doing as well.

There is no negative impact, literally only good things have come out of shield gating. Those who think otherwise do not understand what the mechanic is and ignore all that goes into shield gating and hyper fixate and overvalue the invincibility window it gives. All you shield gate haters dramatically exaggerate the invincibility window and honestly getting ridiculous, go ahead and try that yourself go ahead and face just through raw shield gate ability spam and see how long you last. Health tank builds require far less effort to maintain and guess what they work perfectly fine in all relevant content and are all passive dont even need to think much about them whereas shield gating requires more effort as every time you take a hit you need to react and is only better than health tanking and is only in extremely high lvls like 1K plus which hardly any player will ever bother going to in the 1st place.

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

The more active, more reactive playstyle it encourages could have been attained by way of better balancing of the game, specifically in terms of comparative frame durability, which would've left the game in a much healthier state.

So, you do realize if they instead buffed "comparative frame durability" than these immortality builds would even easier to obtain than what you claim now? I guarantee people would be demanding nerfs to gloom and other life steal effects due to the sheer amount of healing that comes with those. Having a mechanic that demands you to react in order to stay alive is far more balanced than one that allows you to achieve the same thing but completely passively.

VibingCat · August 1, 2023

I like this change. Finally my Rhino won't get oneshotted by high level Toxic Ancients.

IDystopiaI · August 1, 2023

13 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Ok, so now do this without garuda. Yea sure theres a few frames that can shield gate better than others can, however that does not mean all frames can do the same. People like to ignore everything else about shield gating besides the invulnerability and all it leads to is ridiculous exaggerations like this.

edit:

Also, btw garuda has extra invulnerability frames while casting her abilities (aside from bloodletting) that other frames dont have.

I kind of made it a point to avoid using her 1 to avoid any extra survivability from both the shield and invuln period, while also using her 4 as brief as possible to mark enemies/minimize invulnerability and it shows with how few enemies I was actually able to mark with the debuff (who is going to level cap with Garuda without actually making use of her 4th ability?). Blood Altar's invuln is so short and it already instantly resets my shields that the invuln period might as well not exist.

6 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

If you run out of energy in a shield gate build you die. Stop ignoring that. In a shield gate build you are turning your energy into another health bar, you are not magically invincible.

The fact is he took damage. If shield gating supposedly makes completely invulnerable than how did he take any damage at all.

Again, the video you linked the dude was using molt which is a very strong cc as it draws in enemy aggro meaning much less chance of you being shot as long stand in the way. You also ignore the fact that cast of molt to refresh the shield gate so if you where to put yourself in a situation like this where you spam your abilities that much to face tank you will out of energy extremely fast. The fact is every time you take a hit in a shield gate build to a forced to react to it or the next one kills you yet you ignore this.

There is no negative impact, literally only good things have come out of shield gating. Those who think otherwise do not understand what the mechanic is and ignore all that goes into shield gating and hyper fixate and overvalue the invincibility window it gives. All you shield gate haters dramatically exaggerate the invincibility window and honestly getting ridiculous, go ahead and try that yourself go ahead and face just through raw shield gate ability spam and see how long you last. Health tank builds require far less effort to maintain and guess what they work perfectly fine in all relevant content and are all passive dont even need to think much about them whereas shield gating requires more effort as every time you take a hit you need to react and is only better than health tanking and is only in extremely high lvls like 1K plus which hardly any player will ever bother going to in the 1st place.

So, you do realize if they instead buffed "comparative frame durability" than these immortality builds would even easier to obtain than what you claim now? I guarantee people would be demanding nerfs to gloom and other life steal effects due to the sheer amount of healing that comes with those. Having a mechanic that demands you to react in order to stay alive is far more balanced than one that allows you to achieve the same thing but completely passively.

There are enough ways to regen energy now that maintaining it is a a non issue.
There are still some sources of damage that will not kill you at level cap. You don't need to play perfect to survive with Shield Gating.
Why ignore parts of a warframe's kit in an endurance mission? Is the only thing an ability is good for refilling your shields?
We lack survivability, this has been ignored in favor of a band-aid solution. The trickledown effect of this is that objects also lack survivability, and a rework of enemy damage is probably required to resolve this. Isn't it fun when an Eximus decides it want's to 1-shot the objective through a barrier? We can't CC it in any way either thanks to Overguard.
I've shown that I'm effectively invulnerable to all damage while deliberately using the warframe's kit poorly to make a point, and then you tell me to do it again because using Garuda is unfair for that example. You've made other complaints about using a warframe's abilities for other things besides refilling shields; the complaints about Shield Gating are that there are ways to abuse it to the point you can't die.
"All you shield gate haters dramatically exaggerate the invincibility window and honestly getting ridiculous, go ahead and try that yourself" I have multiple times, you're leaving out the fact that it's even easier in a public setting* more about this at the end of this comment.
+1k isn't exactly High level anymore thanks to how fast Duviri Scales. It wasn't high level before the endurance enemy scaling rework either, I could reach that in Disruption before they capped level increases to +5/round.
I'd be happy to have a nerf to Gloom, I'm tired of missions feeling like Simulacrum. Better Survivability does not equal immortality. Who cares about Life Steal? What's the point if you're dead before you can make use of it? Lots of other ways to restore Hp anyways, although it is much faster to restore large chunks of shield than it is to restore Hp. Why do you seem so against any other form of survival that isn't Shield Gating? At least the other mechanics tend to have some interaction with objectives whereas Shield Gating an Excavator is effectively impossible (are you expecting Gating in the form of RNG canisters spawns?). Shield Gaiting is a simple loop that can be automated with a Macro. It doesn't need to know the current state of the game, it only requires an ability to refill your shields every 1.3s. The only requirement is for you to refill your energy enough for the next ability cast.

11 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

See everyone brings up this whole "health tanking cant do lvl cap" argument and in my honest opinion its utter nonsense. 1st off hardly any player will ever get remotely close to reaching lvl cap in the 1st place and most of those dont not even get to the point where health tanking falls off so this whole lvl cap being the standard is just absurd. 2nd inaros is not a bad frame because he cant shield gate, hes a bad frame because his abilities suck, before shield gating was a thing inaros was garbage and now after it was added he is still garbage and he didnt receive the fancy new mechanic most other frames got. 3rd before shield gating was added in order to do a lvl cap run you to relay on hard ccing every single enemy at every given moment and/or hide in a corner of the map behind a frost bubble/volt shield, and let me tell it me personally I find it way more fun to be able to move around freely and cast a wide variety of abilities than hiding in one single corner of the map behind a bubble/shield.

Genuinely, nice idea however you arent actually tanking anything nor relying shield gating at that point as you are ccing everything preventing the enemies be able to shoot at you in the 1st place. Might work out decently well in an actual mission tho with the lengthy setup time would be quite risky and you would be have to be mindful of your surroundings.

There is a Hard Limit where health gets one shot, there is no grace mechanic absorbing infinite damage, and Last Gasp has it's issues like trying to find enemies to kill in a squad setting without enemy radar.

Being able to survive harder content is becoming more relevant with the release Duviri, where it doesn't take an excessive amount of time to reach lvl +2000 enemies, yet we're still getting poorly thought out band-aid decrees and more damage for some reason even though that isn't the issue. "+500 Armor on Finisher for 10s" (1500 for warframe). The only ways we are opening up enemies to finishers is if RNG gives us a weapon or a warframe that can open up enemies to a finisher. Ground finishers do not work, making this decree effectively useless. A fix to warframe durability (and objective) is especially important here because we don't have any effective means of survival in the Circuit. If the band-aid of Chaining Shield Gaiting/Shield Gating in general were not in place, we may have already had a solution to this problem. Instead, the mentality has been "just use Shield Gate to survive", which is not healthy for the game.

Here's the same thing as before with CC immune enemies mixed in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K_wvJ6fnQQ

No option in Simulacrum for continuous spawning of enemies to replace the killed ones, which is a requirement for Exodia Brave to function, much easier to maintain in an actual mission.
1/4 enemies as Eximus seemed reasonable to me, most people would probably move to another area with fewer Eximus if they got too dense.
"You're still using CC". If you're going to continue be that picky about me making use of soft grouping/CC abilities that enemies can quickly recover from, you're entirely ignoring that you should be making effective use of your full kit in endurance missions. My abilities are cast within 1.3s, I maintain my energy and never take health damage. The only point I slow down casting abilities is so that I can pick off the last few enemies that wander away, and in a regular mission, I would have a constant flow of enemies coming to me.
Grouping abilities are great for both increasing how many kills you make in a short period of time, as well as filtering weaker enemies away from the Eximus so that I can target them specifically.

Generally whenever someone that Chains Shield Gating for survival tells you to "Try it yourself" because they don't think you can do it, they're leaving out the fact that it becomes significantly easier in a public setting, often hiding the fact that there is an cap to the number of attacking enemies, and depending on the enemies used reduces the cap. I chose fast firing hit-scan enemies for my testing so I'm at the upper limit for this cap of concurrent enemies attacking at the same time, which would be ~5-6. In a public setting, you're realistically only going to have 1-2 enemies trying to hit you at a time making avoiding damage much easier. The number of attacking enemies cap is pretty obvious to anyone that plays Harrow for his 4. Try bringing him to a mission solo and you will never have any issues capping damage on it, next bring it to a public mission (without an animal companion, melee bypasses this attacking enemy cap) and get outside of Affinity Range so that you are the only one given immunity. Chances are you struggle to take enough damage to hit the threshold required for +50%/+200% Crit Chance. Add in accidently picking up a Wisp Shock mote and I'm lucky if an enemy even hits me while I'm standing still for the 16s of Covenant's invulnerability phase with a 271% duration build. The same concept applies to shield gating and the lack of enemies targeting you to deplete your shields. Add in priority targets, and you've drastically increased how easy it is to survive with shield gating because you are no longer the focus of nearby enemies the majority of the time.

You also have a habit of trying to change the topic to something else in a lot of your responses instead of responding directly to points brought up.

Silligoose · August 1, 2023

3 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

If you run out of energy in a shield gate build you die. Stop ignoring that. In a shield gate build you are turning your energy into another health bar, you are not magically invincible.

It is not that I'm ignoring that it could happen. It just almost never does. You keep talking about it as though it is some big deal, when it isn't in an actual run. I might run out in Disruption with the energy siphon debuff, or if I get smacked with some energy-leeching attack, which just doesn't happen very often at all. Even when it happens, it doesn't mean I die. It means adjust my play, potentially go to my second line of defense, potentially play a little safer, because now I can't actually facetank as I would with Shield Gating. With some setups I have an abundance of energy orbs lying around. With some others I have greater levels of energy regen. It is a little weird that you think running out of energy is something that happens a lot with a Shield Gating build. It wasn't much of a concern prior to Archon Shards and is even less of a concern now.

3 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

The fact is he took damage. If shield gating supposedly makes completely invulnerable than how did he take any damage at all.

3 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Again, the video you linked the dude was using molt which is a very strong cc as it draws in enemy aggro meaning much less chance of you being shot as long stand in the way. You also ignore the fact that cast of molt to refresh the shield gate so if you where to put yourself in a situation like this where you spam your abilities that much to face tank you will out of energy extremely fast. The fact is every time you take a hit in a shield gate build to a forced to react to it or the next one kills you yet you ignore this.

Within the Shield Gating build used in the video Iinked, a full energy pool allows for the use of Molt 34 times before energy is depleted. Over 30 seconds one can just stand there, facetanking while pressing 2 within 1.3 second intervals. I've completed missions faster than that. If you think that is extremely fast within the context of facetanking, you must be sweating bullets when playing Revenant with less than 15 Mesmer Skin stacks, because that can run out in only 15 seconds!

He was standing right next to the Molt decoy, at times in between the decoy and the enemy and you want to argue Molt was doing the most work by diverting enemy fire away from the player? The player who was getting shot standing next to the decoy? The player who positioned themselves in the line of fire? You should understand he played like that because he wasn't very concerned about taking fire.

Looking at your answers I have to ask: Do you actually have experience with Shield Gating builds? You keep telling people to go experience it, but I just can't imagine players who are familiar with them asking these questions. If you did, you'd know energy isn't really a problem. If you did, you'd know there are times when you get shot to hell from all directions, but it is fine because you can facetank for 15+ seconds without having to worry about energy if you are full. It can get annoying because you are experiencing just how broken the mechanic is, the sheer the fact that you are cheesing enemies very blatantly, stares you point blank in the face, but there isn't a concern that you would die. I don't mind players asking questions, but these questions I tend to get from people who want to learn how to make use of shield gating builds, whereas you ask questions but don't want to learn at all. You look at the evidence and refuse to accept it. It is very strange.

3 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

There is no negative impact, literally only good things have come out of shield gating. Those who think otherwise do not understand what the mechanic is and ignore all that goes into shield gating and hyper fixate and overvalue the invincibility window it gives.

On 2023-07-29 at 10:50 AM, Silligoose said:

it renders actual healing mechanics moot against the higher enemy levels, leads to glass canons becoming more durable than actual tanks, leads to a higher defensive stat (shields) being worse at its intended function (durability), contributes to power creep in various ways by enabling greater range/strength/duration builds without the sacrifice of durability, leads to the developers not actually being able to kill players without disabling or bypassing the mechanic (poor design) and importantly, as mentioned before, leads to a foundational balancing mechanic, enemy damage, not a viable tool for balancing anymore.

How can you claim there is no negative impact when Shield Gating results in all the above?

3 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

All you shield gate haters dramatically exaggerate the invincibility window and honestly getting ridiculous, go ahead and try that yourself go ahead and face just through raw shield gate ability spam and see how long you last. Health tank builds require far less effort to maintain and guess what they work perfectly fine in all relevant content and are all passive dont even need to think much about them whereas shield gating requires more effort as every time you take a hit you need to react and is only better than health tanking and is only in extremely high lvls like 1K plus which hardly any player will ever bother going to in the 1st place.

I run various Shield Gate builds and I've done level cap runs. I am very familiar with how it works. There is no exaggeration in saying that Shield Gate chaining allows my frame to be effectively immortal for 20+ seconds. Not only have I tried facetanking like that, I do it regularly: I'd be facing enemies of whatever level, decide I want to take a sip of water, stop moving my frame, stop shooting, use the designated Shield Gate ability with 1 second intervals and proceed to take a sip of coffee or water, all while under fire from enemies. You again try to talk about how health tanking can be less effort than a shield gating build, but that is not a point of contention. The point contention is you perpetuating the notion that Shield Gating builds require hyper active playstyles, which is wrong. The video showed that and that's with a frame that doesn't even make use of stronger form of cc or defense.

One can debate whether health tanking is "better" or whether shield gating builds are "better" at levels lower than 1k. Some would think health tanking is better, because it requires less effort. Other will view shield gating builds as better, because they can build for more power, duration and/or range, meaning they can kill quicker and ensure they (and objectives) get hit less. I'm more concerned with negative impact Shield Gating has.

3 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

So, you do realize if they instead buffed "comparative frame durability" than these immortality builds would even easier to obtain than what you claim now? I guarantee people would be demanding nerfs to gloom and other life steal effects due to the sheer amount of healing that comes with those. Having a mechanic that demands you to react in order to stay alive is far more balanced than one that allows you to achieve the same thing but completely passively.

Strange tangent, seeing as how I didn't say DE should buff comparative Warframe durability.

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 1, 2023

10 hours ago, Silligoose said:

It is not that I'm ignoring that it could happen. It just almost never does. You keep talking about it as though it is some big deal, when it isn't in an actual run. I might run out in Disruption with the energy siphon debuff, or if I get smacked with some energy-leeching attack, which just doesn't happen very often at all. Even when it happens, it doesn't mean I die. It means adjust my play, potentially go to my second line of defense, potentially play a little safer, because now I can't actually facetank as I would with Shield Gating. With some setups I have an abundance of energy orbs lying around. With some others I have greater levels of energy regen. It is a little weird that you think running out of energy is something that happens a lot with a Shield Gating build. It wasn't much of a concern prior to Archon Shards and is even less of a concern now.

Yet you ignore the fact that every time you take a hit you must spend energy to survive the nest hit, that adds up very quickly. If all you are doing is just standing there and face tanking everything just by spamming one ability you will in fact run out and die, in order for to actually work you need to be doing other things on top of restoring your shields, you have to keep moving and jumping around, you have to keep a steady kpm to fuel your shield gate, you have to spend enough energy to fully regen your shields. You continue to ignore everything that goes into shield gating except for the invulnerability window, you are literally player type 3 or at least a victim of them.

10 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Looking at your answers I have to ask: Do you actually have experience with Shield Gating builds? You keep telling people to go experience it, but I just can't imagine players who are familiar with them asking these questions. If you did, you'd know energy isn't really a problem. If you did, you'd know there are times when you get shot to hell from all directions, but it is fine because you can facetank for 15+ seconds without having to worry about energy if you are full. It can get annoying because you are experiencing just how broken the mechanic is, the sheer the fact that you are cheesing enemies very blatantly, stares you point blank in the face, but there isn't a concern that you would die. I don't mind players asking questions, but these questions I tend to get from people who want to learn how to make use of shield gating builds, whereas you ask questions but don't want to learn at all. You look at the evidence and refuse to accept it. It is very strange

Yes, I in fact do have experience with shield gating build. I however do not blatantly ignore everything that goes into shield gating, if you do not have a steady kpm to fuel your shield gating than you wont be able to shield gate very long, if you are putting yourself in a situation where you are spending more energy than you are receiving than you wont be able to shield gate very long, if you are not constantly to every tick of damage you take you will die. These you keep blatantly ignoring.

10 hours ago, Silligoose said:

How can you claim there is no negative impact when Shield Gating results in all the above?

Well aside from the fact the dude literally took damage and that he actually wasnt being shot most of the time to have to relay solely on the shield gate, you can also achieve the same exact thing by just using an inaros. And before you say "oh but you cant health tank in lvl cap" yes thats the point, if you want to stay alive in those lvls you have to be pressing more buttons and just stand face tanking everything.

edit:

you can also achieve the same thing with ivara or other invisibility frames.

10 hours ago, Silligoose said:

One can debate whether health tanking is "better" or whether shield gating builds are "better" at levels lower than 1k. Some would think health tanking is better, because it requires less effort. Other will view shield gating builds as better, because they can build for more power, duration and/or range, meaning they can kill quicker and ensure they (and objectives) get hit less. I'm more concerned with negative impact Shield Gating has.

There is no negative impact, if youre doing under lvl 1k content you get to choose the very comfy health tank option or the way less comfy but stronger shield gate option. I dont know about you but that sounds like a fair tradeoff to me. If you want to go above those lvls then this argument becomes irrelevant as DE themselfs have come out and said that the game is not and will not be balanced around those lvls, yet despite this players go to these lvls anyway than complain about the enemy damage being so insane that you cant step outside a frost bubble without being instantly one hit. So what does DE do, they add shield gating and this has so far been one of the adjustments made specifically for that crazy high lvl content and likely remain that case a very long while, so if you dont want to have to relay on shield gate tanking than just dont go to those crazy high lvls simple as that. Now you could argue that circuit goes against that as the enemy scaling ramps up way faster than normal in which yea it does, it takes me on average 40-60 mins to reach 1300lvl+ enemies which is where I usually end the run which is significantly faster than normal, the thing you need to consider tho is that the decaying key along with the entire gear wheel is disabled during it meaning that shield gate builds unviable yet despite this players are not having any real difficulty acquiring all the awards that come fom it meaning this "negative impact" you keep binging up is nonexistent.

10 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Strange tangent, seeing as how I didn't say DE should buff comparative Warframe durability.

It defiantly was implied and if you didnt mean buffing warframe durability (which btw never actually said you did) than surely you mean reworking enemy damage to some decree like reducing their damage to reduce the one hits however thats effectively the same thig as buffing frame survivability. If one hits are removed entirely than there would be nothing stopping health tanking from being actually immortality, far more so than shield gating supposedly is. And you cant make enemy damage too weak otherwise the game becomes way too easy so naturally healing would have to take a huge nerf, problem with this tho is since game is a horde shooter and you are constantly surrounded by enemies and are basically never not being shot at you would have to play very similarly to how you plya now, you would have to spam abilities to keep everyone cced, or you would have to nuke everything down faster than they can kill you, or worst case scenario you would have to go back to hiding in a corner of the map and camp that spot. Shield gating was the best possible outcome as not only does it fit the fast paced space ninja style game more but it also encourages much more active play and more diverse builds.

Now I would agree that an enemy and mission rework, and I mean a huge rework not just damage sclaing, is long overdue, I even so much as joking said the only thing that can save warframe is warframe 2 at this point in the past, however pinning shield gating as the problem when it was originally the solution to the problem is not going to do anything and will lead to the situation getting worse.

12 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

You also have a habit of trying to change the topic to something else in a lot of your responses instead of responding directly to points brought up.

Very funny considering you just did the same thing with the whole "but shield gating becomes significantly easier in a public setting" statement.

IDystopiaI · August 1, 2023

31 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Very funny considering you just did the same thing with the whole "but shield gating becomes significantly easier in a public setting" statement.

Seems pretty on topic to me as it is both relevant to my testing conditions and to a setting with a squad. I even told you how you could test this for yourself with Harrow. Compare the damage numbers and you will see that Solo Harrow absorbs significantly more damage; while in certain situations, because of the cap, you may take 0 damage for the entire invulnerability period of Covenant in a squad setting. The frequency and number of enemies attacking you has a direct impact on how difficult it is to Shield Gate, and pointing out that there is a cap to the number of enemies attacking at one time is relevant, especially to anyone that doesn't currently know about this being told to "try shield gating for themselves".

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 1, 2023

43 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

Seems pretty on topic to me as it is both relevant to my testing conditions and to a setting with a squad. I even told you how you could test this for yourself with Harrow. Compare the damage numbers and you will see that Solo Harrow absorbs significantly more damage; while in certain situations, because of the cap, you may take 0 damage for the entire invulnerability period of Covenant in a squad setting. The frequency and number of enemies attacking you has a direct impact on how difficult it is to Shield Gate, and pointing out that there is a cap to the number of enemies attacking at one time is relevant, especially to anyone that doesn't currently know about this being told to "try shield gating for themselves".

And this goes back to my original point of people hyper fixating on the 1.3 sec invulnerability window and over value the hell out of it and ignore everything else that goes into it that actually make it work the way it does. Like with your second vid, you are ignoring the fact that your shield gate build only works the way it does because you are getting kills to proc exodia hunt to fuel the energy costs, which btw hunt cant proc from DoTs so the only way hunt works properly in this demonstration is because the armor strip from banshees aug, you are ignoring the fact you are actively fighting and breaking through the eximus overguard so they can be cced, which some do actually sucked into airburst, or just kill them outright, you are ignoring the fact you are using both rolling guard and arcane aegis and not solely relaying on shield gating through ability spam. Thats why I genuinely said it was a nice idea as that setup has really nice synergy with each otherr. If at any point you fail to keep up this rotation in a real mission scenario tho you can very easily end up dead, thats my point everyone ignore the steps that make it work and just jump to the "oh I press 1 button and never die" nonsense.

And as for this "frequency of being shot at directly affects the difficulty of shield gating" is complete nonsense. If you not being shot at that often in the 1st place then the need to instantly refresh your shield gate becomes nonexistent, need I remind you shields regenerate on their own meaning if you are not actively being shoot at the whole time your shields will regen and the next time you do get hit it will shield gate, it doesnt even have to fully regenerate if your only being shot at every once in a while the .3 secs is more than enough and it acts as the anti one hit mechanic all you shield gate haters claim it was only meant to be. No offense but this argument is kinda dumb.

IDystopiaI · August 1, 2023

2 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And this goes back to my original point of people hyper fixating on the 1.3 sec invulnerability window and over value the hell out of it and ignore everything else that goes into it that actually make it work the way it does. Like with your second vid, you are ignoring the fact that your shield gate build only works the way it does because you are getting kills to proc exodia hunt to fuel the energy costs, which btw hunt cant proc from DoTs so the only way hunt works properly in this demonstration is because the armor strip from banshees aug, you are ignoring the fact you are actively fighting and breaking through the eximus overguard so they can be cced, which some do actually sucked into airburst, or just kill them outright, you are ignoring the fact you are using both rolling guard and arcane aegis and not solely relaying on shield gating through ability spam. Thats why I genuinely said it was a nice idea as that setup has really nice synergy with each otherr. If at any point you fail to keep up this rotation in a real mission scenario tho you can very easily end up dead, thats my point everyone ignore the steps that make it work and just jump to the "oh I press 1 button and never die" nonsense.

And as for this "frequency of being shot at directly affects the difficulty of shield gating" is complete nonsense. If you not being shot at that often in the 1st place then the need to instantly refresh your shield gate becomes nonexistent, need I remind you shields regenerate on their own meaning if you are not actively being shoot at the whole time your shields will regen and the next time you do get hit it will shield gate, it doesnt even have to fully regenerate if your only being shot at every once in a while the .3 secs is more than enough and it acts as the anti one hit mechanic all you shield gate haters claim it was only meant to be. No offense but this argument is kinda dumb.

People "fixate" on the 1.3s of invulnerability because chaining that is what leads to invulnerability. You saw it with both my Garuda and Banshee that I'm able to set myself in in a state where I am unkillable as long as I cast an ability before the last Shield Gate expires. Being able to abuse this is why people have an issue with this specific state of Shield Gating. People are not complaining about damage to shields not bleeding over into health.

You don't like that I make a build that provides extended periods of Invulnerability and completely ignore that you actually need to be able to kill enemies to play the game. What is the point of playing if literally all you can do is face tank with invulnerability without killing what is attacking you?

Energy Management through Exodia Hunt
- I made the build have a sustainable form of energy management
- Don't need DOTS to kill, Banshee has one of the strongest debuffs in the game in the form of Sonar/Resonance. If I weren't forma constrained I would have had the Resonance Augment on for even more damage. (Universal forma when?)
- "Only works properly because of armor strip from banshee aug". Really? I haven't even made use of my operator for utility. Unairu has 100% armor strip and is accessible to everyone if they pick this focus school. I only need to press 5 then 2 and all the enemies around me are armor stripped. I can use Shattering Impact to strip armor. This strips Base Armor, meaning that a Butcher at lvl 1 and a Butcher at lvl 9999 both take 1 hit to strip 100% of their armor. If I'm fighting corpus, I can use Unairu's 1 instead to create a zone where everything is Shield Stripped. I don't need to use Pull to group enemies, the Helminth provides other abilities that are able to strip Armor. Sonar/Resonance are strong enough that you can reasonably expect them to boost your damage enough to 1 shot enemies without being stripped. (Corpus/Corrupted Corpus are squishy enough that I don't think anyone would have trouble 1-shotting them with a heavy attack build).
Killing Enemies
- How did killing enemies become a problem? Are you completing endurance missions with 0 kills? Is your next complaint that I complete missions with a keyboard connected to my computer?
- Who isn't going into high level content without a way to debuff enemies, i.e. through armor/shield stripping? Do you play without boosting your damage, because that isn't going to get you very far? The point is to kill as many enemies as you can as fast as possible, if you aren't doing that, you aren't making it past +2k enemies. Doesn't sound like you actually touch this content despite how much you're defending abusing Shield Gating through chaining.
- Killing a priority enemy like an Eximus is an issue too? How are you supposed to play the game then? 5 minutes of survival looting life support with Ivara and extracting?
- Making use of abilities for other things besides purely refilling shields is an issue?
Survival Mechanics
- Aegis and Rolling Guard aren't commonly used with Shield Gating? Since when? (They do not have the same abuse loop as Shield Gating because of Cooldowns and Procing requirements. It's almost like some thought went into their design towards balance, and not just "this band-aid is good enough") Rolling Guard has other uses such as removing DOTs on you, 3s of invulnerability isn't its only use.
- Soft CC/Grouping (enemies do not enter a prolonged ragdoll state where I can forget about them, I have to actively decide how to deal with them and is an important mechanic towards killing enemies efficiently. This is especially important when playing Steel Path/Circuit survival because of how scares life support is. (Definitely needs a rebalance in life support drop rates)
- The abilities can be intermittently used with a Macro. I don't need to pay attention to my game state at that point, and my survival has become automated. Alternatively I play in a public setting and thanks to the attacking enemy cap, I generally only deal with 1-2 enemies actually focusing on me at a time. You really do not need to play perfect to chain shield gating.
What are you trying to say here?

'And as for this "frequency of being shot at directly affects the difficulty of shield gating" is complete nonsense. If you not being shot at that often in the 1st place then the need to instantly refresh your shield gate becomes nonexistent, need I remind you shields regenerate on their own meaning if you are not actively being shoot at the whole time your shields will regen and the next time you do get hit it will shield gate, it doesnt even have to fully regenerate if your only being shot at every once in a while the .3 secs is more than enough and it acts as the anti one hit mechanic all you shield gate haters claim it was only meant to be. No offense but this argument is kinda dumb.'

Being shot at less means you can play less perfect. It means you can conserve more energy, and have a chance to replenish any energy lost. It means you're less likely to take fatal damage while you're health is vulnerable.

'If you not being shot at that often in the 1st place then the need to instantly refresh your shield gate becomes nonexistent, need I remind you shields regenerate on their own meaning if you are not actively being shoot at the whole time your shields will regen and the next time you do get hit it will shield gate'

There is a very large delay between your shields breaking and being able to regenerate. When you are chaining shield gating, you are resetting the invulnerability period before the previous 1.3s expired. Pretty simple invulnerability loop.

'if your only being shot at every once in a while the .3 secs'

Whose only getting shot at once every 0.3s? You can have multiple enemies tracking and shooting at you at the same time. Most Grinner/Corrupted Grinner are using Full Auto Hitscan weapons. The Corpus humanoid enemies generally use a Supra (occasionally a flux rifle model with Supra projectiles), while Heavy Moas use a Beam attack. These aren't single shot attacks, they are continuous. (not an exhaustive list of enemy weapons, just the most commonly seen in every tile set encountering them)

'"oh I press 1 button and never die" nonsense.'

Pretending this video doesn't exist? Want to make it even easier? Use Dread Mirror to block damage. Actually charge Garuda's 4 to mark targets and use it effectively. Bobby Tables went down in 15s while I continued to screw around for 2:30 pressing random buttons occasionally shooting at a single enemy at a time. I never took health damage within that timespan.

Would you be okay with DE shortening the Shield Gate Duration to 0.5s, inline with the new Overguard Gate? It's good enough for Kullervo so it has to be good enough for any warframe with Shields. 'Shields regenerate on their own', unlike Kullervo's Overguard. They don't need the full 1.3s grace period.

If changes to Augur/Brief Respite were made so that they can't proc at 0 remaining Shield, the same way the Rakta Dark Dagger now functions, what happens to your survivability? If an Aura Mod were added boosting base Shields, will you still be able to refresh your shield gate duration? Do you have to spend as little time as possible in a Relay just to avoid Shield Blessings when Baro comes around? To most people this is just a minor buff like the other relay blessings, while to someone shield gating, its the difference between 0.3 and 1.3s of invulnerability.

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 1, 2023

2 hours ago, IDystopiaI said:

People "fixate" on the 1.3s of invulnerability because chaining that is what leads to invulnerability. You saw it with both my Garuda and Banshee that I'm able to set myself in in a state where I am unkillable as long as I cast an ability before the last Shield Gate expires. Being able to abuse this is why people have an issue with this specific state of Shield Gating. People are not complaining about damage to shields not bleeding over into health.

You don't like that I make a build that provides extended periods of Invulnerability and completely ignore that you actually need to be able to kill enemies to play the game. What is the point of playing if literally all you can do is face tank with invulnerability without killing what is attacking you?

Energy Management through Exodia Hunt
I made the build have a sustainable form of energy management

Don't need DOTS to kill, Banshee has one of the strongest debuffs in the game in the form of Sonar/Resonance. If I weren't forma constrained I would have had the Resonance Augment on for even more damage. (Universal forma when?)

"Only works properly because of armor strip from banshee aug". Really? I haven't even made use of my operator for utility. Unairu has 100% armor strip and is accessible to everyone if they pick this focus school. I only need to press 5 then 2 and all the enemies around me are armor stripped. I can use Shattering Impact to strip armor. This strips Base Armor, meaning that a Butcher at lvl 1 and a Butcher at lvl 9999 both take 1 hit to strip 100% of their armor. If I'm fighting corpus, I can use Unairu's 1 instead to create a zone where everything is Shield Stripped. I don't need to use Pull to group enemies, the Helminth provides other abilities that are able to strip Armor. Sonar/Resonance are strong enough that you can reasonably expect them to boost your damage enough to 1 shot enemies without being stripped. (Corpus/Corrupted Corpus are squishy enough that I don't think anyone would have trouble 1-shotting them with a heavy attack build).

Killing Enemies
How did killing enemies become a problem? Are you completing endurance missions with 0 kills? Is your next complaint that I complete missions with a keyboard connected to my computer?

Who isn't going into high level content without a way to debuff enemies, i.e. through armor/shield stripping? Do you play without boosting your damage, because that isn't going to get you very far? The point is to kill as many enemies as you can as fast as possible, if you aren't doing that, you aren't making it past +2k enemies. Doesn't sound like you actually touch this content despite how much you're defending abusing Shield Gating through chaining.

Killing a priority enemy like an Eximus is an issue too? How are you supposed to play the game then? 5 minutes of survival looting life support with Ivara and extracting?

Making use of abilities for other things besides purely refilling shields is an issue?

Survival Mechanics
Aegis and Rolling Guard aren't commonly used with Shield Gating? Since when? (They do not have the same abuse loop as Shield Gating because of Cooldowns and Procing requirements. It's almost like some thought went into their design towards balance, and not just "this band-aid is good enough") Rolling Guard has other uses such as removing DOTs on you, 3s of invulnerability isn't its only use.

Soft CC/Grouping (enemies do not enter a prolonged ragdoll state where I can forget about them, I have to actively decide how to deal with them and is an important mechanic towards killing enemies efficiently. This is especially important when playing Steel Path/Circuit survival because of how scares life support is. (Definitely needs a rebalance in life support drop rates)

The abilities can be intermittently used with a Macro. I don't need to pay attention to my game state at that point, and my survival has become automated. Alternatively I play in a public setting and thanks to the attacking enemy cap, I generally only deal with 1-2 enemies actually focusing on me at a time. You really do not need to play perfect to chain shield gating.

What are you trying to say here?

'And as for this "frequency of being shot at directly affects the difficulty of shield gating" is complete nonsense. If you not being shot at that often in the 1st place then the need to instantly refresh your shield gate becomes nonexistent, need I remind you shields regenerate on their own meaning if you are not actively being shoot at the whole time your shields will regen and the next time you do get hit it will shield gate, it doesnt even have to fully regenerate if your only being shot at every once in a while the .3 secs is more than enough and it acts as the anti one hit mechanic all you shield gate haters claim it was only meant to be. No offense but this argument is kinda dumb.'

Being shot at less means you can play less perfect. It means you can conserve more energy, and have a chance to replenish any energy lost. It means you're less likely to take fatal damage while you're health is vulnerable.

'If you not being shot at that often in the 1st place then the need to instantly refresh your shield gate becomes nonexistent, need I remind you shields regenerate on their own meaning if you are not actively being shoot at the whole time your shields will regen and the next time you do get hit it will shield gate'

There is a very large delay between your shields breaking and being able to regenerate. When you are chaining shield gating, you are resetting the invulnerability period before the previous 1.3s expired. Pretty simple invulnerability loop.

'if your only being shot at every once in a while the .3 secs'

Whose only getting shot at once every 0.3s? You can have multiple enemies tracking and shooting at you at the same time. Most Grinner/Corrupted Grinner are using Full Auto Hitscan weapons. The Corpus humanoid enemies generally use a Supra (occasionally a flux rifle model with Supra projectiles), while Heavy Moas use a Beam attack. These aren't single shot attacks, they are continuous. (not an exhaustive list of enemy weapons, just the most commonly seen in every tile set encountering them)

'"oh I press 1 button and never die" nonsense.

Pretending this video doesn't exist? Want to make it even easier? Use Dread Mirror to block damage. Actually charge Garuda's 4 to mark targets and use it effectively. Bobby Tables went down in 15s while I continued to screw around for 2:30 pressing random buttons occasionally shooting at a single enemy at a time. I never took health damage within that timespan.

You still do not get it do you? There is more to shield gating then just pressing a button and becoming invincible yet for what everyone seems to blatantly ignore that and overvalue and exaggerate the invulnerability widow and so far every you have made has proven that point more and more. You are just another player type 3 or at least a victum of them. And all of this invulnerability nonsense can be done effortlessly with a frame like inaros or really any frame with gloom and you dont even have to do anything at all, "but he cant do lvl cap" well lvl cap is irrelevant as you extra nothing extra from it there is just no reason to do it thats why most dont but if you insist just swap the frame for revenant and have the same lvl of no effort invulnerability. Pressing 2 every once in a while too much for you well you can use ivara and be permanently invis and never worry about damage ever again or maybe even use assimilate nyx. But no everyone focuses on the shield gate invulnerability, which again isnt even true invulnerability as you effectively are turning your energy bar into a health bar, because they that every frame has the ability to shield gate "abuse" the same which is just not true. Also again, shield gating was added specifically because before it was a thing there was very few frames that where viable for doing super high lvl endurance, people did not like this, they did that you where one hit if you where hiding in the corner of the map behind a frost bubble or volt shield so DE gave us shield gating allowing every frame a chance to survive provided you can react to the incoming damage you take every time you get hit. However nowadays for whatever reason people call it this awful bad thing and it makes zero sense, shield gating has remained untouched for three years now despite all the people make to demand it be nerfed for a reason.

(NSW)Greybones · August 2, 2023

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

You are just another player type 3.

Just poking my head in while skimming, not to start another argument or anything, but this bit jumped out and made me curious; you picked up that I said I’m not a player type 3, right?

I know you’re talking to Dystopial, but the only other time I’d seen an accusation of “player type 3” was towards me, and I feel like maybe I wasn’t clear enough that I wasn’t coming from that position

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 2, 2023

18 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Just poking my head in while skimming, not to start another argument or anything, but this bit jumped out and made me curious; you picked up that I said I’m not a player type 3, right?

I know you’re talking to Dystopial, but the only other time I’d seen an accusation of “player type 3” was towards me, and I feel like maybe I wasn’t clear enough that I wasn’t coming from that position

Its not necessarily directed towards anyone at least not in a bad way, maybe I should rephase it. Its just that these types of players do not care about the other factors that go into shield gating and where all the misconceptions about it come from. Its true that some frames are better at shield gating than others however these types of players use those frames as examples to represent shield gating as and leads to an inaccurate depiction of what shield gating actually is, theres many other factors that play a role like energy cost, how long the ability is to cast and what the ability does. The reason why molt is a popular shield gate ability people use is because molt draws enemy aggo, is an instant cast and has 50 energy cost, most abilities dont come anywhere close to this lvl of effectiveness when it comes to shield gating.

IDystopiaI · August 2, 2023

15 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

You still do not get it do you? There is more to shield gating then just pressing a button and becoming invincible yet for what everyone seems to blatantly ignore that and overvalue and exaggerate the invulnerability widow and so far every you have made has proven that point more and more. You are just another player type 3. And all of this invulnerability nonsense can be done effortlessly with a frame like inaros or really any frame with gloom and you dont even have to do anything at all, "but he cant do lvl cap" well lvl cap is irrelevant as you extra nothing extra from it there is just no reason to do it thats why most dont but if you insist just swap the frame for revenant and have the same lvl of no effort invulnerability. Pressing 2 every once in a while too much for you well you can use ivara and be permanently invis and never worry about damage ever again or maybe even use assimilate nyx. But no everyone focuses on the shield gate invulnerability, which again isnt even true invulnerability as you effectively are turning your energy bar into a health bar, because they that every frame has the ability to shield gate "abuse" the same which is just not true. Also again, shield gating was added specifically because before it was a thing there was very few frames that where viable for doing super high lvl endurance, people did not like this, they did that you where one hit if you where hiding in the corner of the map behind a frost bubble or volt shield so DE gave us shield gating allowing every frame a chance to survive provided you can react to the incoming damage you take every time you get hit. However nowadays for whatever reason people call it this awful bad thing and it makes zero sense, shield gating has remained untouched for three years now despite all the people make to demand it be nerfed for a reason.

Are you even trying to make a point anymore? Multiple people have said why Shield Gating becoming the only viable option isn't good for the game, and that we need better alternatives. Instead of actually being able to explain why needing better alternatives to shield gating is bad, you're just trying to dismiss them and linking to a meme player 'archtype'. I provide some proof of concept gameplay and you immediately dismiss it because it's inconvenient for whatever argument you were tying to make. You claim health tanking should be viable so why are you chaining Shield Gating instead, and why has this become the go-to for higher level content?

To a certain extent, there is a point in doing endless/level cap does have its benefits, mostly in that you are getting rotation bonuses in fissure missions. Other people like build testing/the novelty of making it to level cap. The extreme amount of damage enemies do is becoming relevant to casual players though with Duviri's scaling. Would you mind telling me how Shield Gating is protecting this objective? This is low level content in the context of Duviri. My Hildryn has no issues surviving on its own and Shield Gating preventing the occasional 1-shot attack is intended effect and the reason it was introduces in the first place.

I've also never seen anyone complain that Pillage (Hildryn's base kit and required to actually function)/Condemn/Blessing refilling shields. Both Pillage and Condemn* are Helminth options, and are unable to refill shields instantly the way augur mods/Brief Respite do. They have actual functionality beyond refilling shields, in the case of Pillage, and how I use it, I'm actually able to Status Cleanse, as well as Strip Shields/Armor, I'm also investing into my own shield capacity to make my shields as robust as possible to prevent fully depleting shields as much as possible. I'm effectively using a Shield Tank build (less damage reduction than a Health Tank, but still offers reasonably good protection without needing to constantly rely on invulnerability to stay alive). It's also a requirement for Hildryn to function. Pillage/Condemn don't share the same stigma as Dragon Key Shield Gating because they do not readily or reliably restore shields in the time required to chain shield gating. Condemn has multiple downsides such as failing to do anything to enemies with Overguard, and will not grant shields again on a currently shackled enemy. It also has a relatively slow travel time, which is less than ideal for anyone looking to abuse shield gating when they can just use Augur mods/Brief Respite instead for instant and consistent resets to shield gate. (playing in a full Harrow squad was a weird experience where you're struggling to find an unshackled enemy right after dumping shields for Penance.)

*Condemn did have a minor rework with Harrow Prime's release where enemies within 5m will be instantly shackled. If you're jumping within 5m of an enemy after your shields are depleted just to try to instantly refill them, you deserved that death.

That leaves Trinity's Blessing. Restricted to only being usable by Trinity, what reason is there to use this ability when Shield Gating through dragon keys costs less energy, makes use of 1-handed abilities instead of the 2-handed Blessing (If you really want to deep dive into casting, Pillage, Condemn, and Blessing fall into 2-handed abilities meaning that you can't perform another action simultaneously, another reason why they aren't used for Shield Gating.), costs less to use or is essentially free with her 2's ability to generate energy for you. If you are locked up waiting for a 2-handed ability to finish its animation, that's time lost doing something other than resetting your shield gate. Blessing isn't getting abused for Shield Gating because of how terrible it actually is for it. On paper, Trinity should be one of the best frames for abusing Shield Gating but in practice, she falls short and is pretty evident with how few people actually play her.

100% uptime on invulnerability is easily possible as show with Garuda/Banshee and we lack proper ways to reduce damage taken. This is being ignored in favor of Shield Gating and is is becoming detrimental to the game. My Defense Objective is only going to survive hit from Thrax once and then it's dead if I'm not babysitting it. CC is no longer a viable option with the introduction of Overguard. It's effectively lost its alternative use of gathering a groups of enemies to be killed efficiently and not just "have 4 on a macro" style of CC used by Vauban in sanctuary. Overguard breaks certain non-CC abilities, and this still hasn't been fixed, more band-aids instead of an actual fix! A better fix to all of the CC spam already exists and is utilized by Bosses (that are vulnerable to CC) and Sentients. It's the eventual resistance to abilities that was introduced in Scarlet Spear. This change did not kill CC, it forced a more active playstyle, and while it was a nerf to CC, was a good change for the health of the game overall. People actually had to change how they were playing the mission from afking with a Max-Range Limbo to Minimizing their CC to a range where it would still be effective while also letting enemies come close enough that you're team could deal with them before they gained full immunity to Stasis. Because of this change people were actually playing the mission, and we didn't end up with a lazy "all-or-nothing" 'fix' like Overguard to balance the overabundance of CC.

(NSW)Greybones · August 2, 2023

54 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Its not necessarily directed towards anyone at least not in a bad way, maybe I should rephase it. Its just that these types of players do not care about the other factors that go into shield gating and where all the misconceptions about it come from. Its true that some frames are better at shield gating than others however these types of players use those frames as examples to represent shield gating as and leads to an inaccurate depiction of what shield gating actually is, theres many other factors that play a role like energy cost, how long the ability is to cast and what the ability does. The reason why molt is a popular shield gate ability people use is because molt draws enemy aggo, is an instant cast and has 50 energy cost, most abilities dont come anywhere close to this lvl of effectiveness when it comes to shield gating.

Alright. Long as you understand that I’m not coming from the perspective of desiring the survival provided by shieldgating abuse like some kind of “I should be able to easily be invincible” player who’s afraid of dying.

I’ll be honest, I only sort of understood what the dude was saying though, so I may have misinterpreted something about what a player type 3 is

(NSW)warfare3376 · August 2, 2023

55 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

Are you even trying to make a point anymore? Multiple people have said why Shield Gating becoming the only viable option isn't good for the game, and that we need better alternatives. Instead of actually being able to explain why needing better alternatives to shield gating is bad, you're just trying to dismiss them and linking to a meme player 'archtype'. I provide some proof of concept gameplay and you immediately dismiss it because it's inconvenient for whatever argument you were tying to make. You claim health tanking should be viable so why are you chaining Shield Gating instead, and why has this become the go-to for higher level content?

Except for the fact that for all relevant content shield gating is in fact not the only viable option. People always lvl as the standard for this kind of stuff for whatever reason` even tho DE themselves have come out and said they will not ever balance the game around that kind of content. You dont need to shield gate for any of the games content besides going up to lvl cap content, which Ill say this again, hardly anyone actually does, and you get a whopping nothing from reaching said lvl cap so the fact that everyone this as the excuse is a bit absurd. And guess what we had in terms of viable options before shield gating was added? Thats right hardly anything, shield gating was the answer to the lack of viable options problem but now suddenly people are turning shield gating into the problem and its just ridiculous.

55 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

To a certain extent, there is a point in doing endless/level cap does have its benefits, mostly in that you are getting rotation bonuses in fissure missions. Other people like build testing/the novelty of making it to level cap. The extreme amount of damage enemies do is becoming relevant to casual players though with Duviri's scaling. Would you mind telling me how Shield Gating is protecting this objective? This is low level content in the context of Duviri. My Hildryn has no issues surviving on its own and Shield Gating preventing the occasional 1-shot attack is intended effect and the reason it was introduces in the first place

So the void fissure is a bit of a stretch but I guess is valid enough tho I feel its worth those bonuses cap at 2x which I personally feel is not worth the effort to get to that point just for the maximum value and I feel many others would feel the same. That said I do go on a hour or so sp surv fissure on occasion when its up so because of these small bonuses help with stocking upon steel essence on cracking relics for ducats and traces if Im not capped out so this point is completely unreasonable.

As for the defense point I find it completely absurd. Defense objectives were getting utterly demolished by high lvl enemies long before shield gating was ever around, shield gating did not cause tis problem so the fact you are seemingly blaming it is a bit ridiculous and another case of extreme exaggeration I was talking about. That said I do actually agree that defense has many issues Ive even made other topics about this myself but these have absolutely nothing to do with shield gating.

55 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

Both Pillage and Condemn* are Helminth options, and are unable to refill shields instantly the way augur mods/Brief Respite do.

So fun fact regarding pillage you can actually call it back early to replenish shields faster, condemn Im less familiar as I dont use it often but from what I remember its pretty it restores very fast. And another thing is you can actually both of these abilities with the augur/brief respite and get 2 instances of shield gate for one cast in theory yet I dont see anyone talk about this which I find a little odd considering that people consider just one shield gate instance per cast crazy op.

nslay · August 2, 2023

Yes, Brief Respite and Augur mods can restore shields fast... but you give up ability efficiency and the aura mod slot (because Augur mods are not enough by themselves!). So IMO, this is a considerable sacrifice to pull this off.

Now Brief Respite/Augur mods only restore shields instantly on those frames with either low base shields and/or with negative efficiency... or more likely with a Dragon Key (which I don't think DE thought about).

Just a reminder, all of these tools are completely being used legitimately by players. The only "exploit" is what DE might have failed to imagine when they designed shield gating (probably Dragon Keys)... in which case it's something DE must come out and say: "We didn't intend shield gating to be used this way. We are making X change to address it."

Don't worry, you can't use this trick in the current *real* end game, SP Circuit.

The Rhino buffs: I am concerned, as a hardcore Rhino main, and once a revenant lover.

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