ReThinking Fissures, Relics & Releases

[CrownOfShadows]

The Wisp release made me remember how painful this whole process is, at least for those who farm it out. If the basic plan for the future is to keep releasing another 50 warframes, I think it's worth fixing some things.

Core problems:

• Forming groups via recruit chat is clunky. Now with crossplay its even more chaotic. Yes, there's more opportunity I suppose, there's also a lot more abandonment, confusion and general difficulty with the amount of chat spam.
• Relic acquisition: being able to buy relics from a variety of sources has relieved this problem a little, but people will still run out of relics even so due to poor RNG, and have to farm them again. Some farms are good and fairly fun (Apollo, Olympus, Ur ... cough... all disruption), while some are painful monotony (Hepit, Ukko, Io.. and other defense, excavation and interception options). Also, new players with little to no access to these alternative sources (SP/Syndicates) suffer the most, as they must farm everything the hard way. We might say tough luck, that's what you get for being new, but I don't think that's the right attitude, they should probably have equal access.
• Aya Dilution: relic packs may contain aya. While very small, this does eat into the pool of available purchased relics. Yes, in some sense aya is another form of relic, but it's also a guarantee not to be a newly released item, in fact the opposite. This applies not only to relic packs, but also in a limited sense to relic acquisition (in the void). This functionality is frustrating during a new release (although generally welcome outside of it).
• RNG can bless you or seriously make you want to put your keyboard through your monitor - there have long been suggestions to somehow temper these extremes, but DE has been reluctant to institute any pity programs in this regard. This applies not only to cracking relics, but to obtaining them in the first place.
• Relic overabundance: typically many more relics are acquired in the process than are used, as only a small fraction carry the newly released parts, and during normal non-release play relics also are regularly acquired. This is especially great for new players, but for veterans the disparity between acquisition and usage becomes more and more extreme. We have hundreds and hundreds of relics sitting in inventory and no feasible way to ever use all of them. Even doing non-stop fissures will never burn through them, because more relics are acquired in the very process.

Possible solutions: I'm a believer in constructive criticism, so I'll take a shot at some ways to fix these things:

• Create a featured game mode that is only available during releases. This game mode only awards relics from the release. The point of this would be to minimize and standardize the amount of time grinding relics, especially for new players. Such a game mode may or may not have a staggered reward structure (AABC). Of the available modes, disruption is the most desirable to me, but even though I praise disruption quite a bit, it's not without its minor flaws. I would honestly recommend some new game modes (that are NOT defense, holy christ). One downside of this idea is that it will make valuable farming locations such as Apollo obsolete during a release. A possible solution could be to only allow players to play it a certain amount of times individually, or possibly time gate it (yuck) or otherwise make it a limited engagement, so there's less RNG pain in the general process.
• Standardize farming locations on different planets - this would be a counter option to the above. This is almost the same thing, but it spreads it across planets. For example, Apollo is for axi relics, Ur is for neo relics, but lith and meso are messy so make Olympus for lith and make a disruption on Ceres or something for meso. I understand that relics are meant to be on a rarity scale, and that's why you can speed farm lith on Hepit and meso on Ukko (sortof) but the truth is that Apollo, Ur and Olympus are much more fun (at least for me) than flying Titania through Orokin tilesets over and over and over and over. So just standardize it, make one disruption node for each relic tier and only award that relic tier (not mixing and matching tiers). I'd even recommend making some new game modes that are just as fun as disruption, doing the same thing with them (one dedicated location for each tier), and then removing Hepit and Ukko's relic tables to move all players to those locations, but that may be a bit much idk.
• Make relics individually purchasable for higher rates. Say I want a Meso S6 relic. Say I want 10 of them. What if I could buy a pack that would contain a guaranteed minimum of 33% (or something) Meso S6 relics instead of random relic pack #18? Do I think this is a good option? I'm not sure, but it's an idea. You could also just throw the relics up there solo instead, say on Teshin's shop, buy a pack of Meso S6 relic for like 3x the standard relic pack cost. Personally, I'd gladly take a loss if it saves me from flying Titania another 20 times.
• Make release relics purchasable for Aya: a left field solution - this may or may not be good, I'm not sure how much aya players generally stockpile or how that works out with the cost (personally I have very little aya, like <10, and it takes a while to accumulate), but this would be a good way to provide an alternate release relic source, perhaps only during the week of release. I am also unsure precisely how this would affect new players, especially those without access to the void, but you get that fairly early. I would note that this would actually incentivize Hepit and Ukko even more, which is not really something I want, personally.
• Universal Exchange: this is something I was thinking about, and may make a post on it separately, but it would be nice if WF had a universal exchange of some sort. This would require a new universal currency into which all items could be liquified at different rates. While this would be a lot of work to setup and balance, it would mean that I could exchange 250,000 alloy plates for say 50 universal currency. Then, make a market space (perhaps Maroo) where you can trade universal currency for anything (perform a reverse exchange), for example I can take my 50 universal currency and buy 1 scintillant. This is all very complicated and may disrupt WF's grind too much, but I believe it has potential and is desirable as a way to link all content island currencies in a limited way and stifle frustration over truly awful grinds (looking at you Fortuna). I bring it up because it could be used for relics too, giving players a way to directly buy individual relics, at cost to themselves, even if they don't have SP or Syndicates. Further, because DE needs to make money ofc, make universal currency available for platinum.
• Create a new relic refinement level: this new level is above Radiant, and it completely drops the lower tier of offerings and perhaps duplicates the highest offering. I suggest this because the most painful part of fissures by far is the highest rarity tier. I understand that's the whole point, but I can tell you after burning through a dozen radiants with full radiant groups (Gunsen blades x2) - and not getting even one, that it's just a little TOO painful. (Before you do the 'thats just bad RNG sucks to be you' thing keep in mind I had to farm 90% of those relics, that I had to do that on Ukko - think about how long that takes). This new tier would cost perhaps 150 traces. If you want it to hurt even more, make it 200 traces or make the relic require 15 or 20 traces to open in a mission instead of 10). Alternatively, simply lower the gate a little on this uppermost tier.
• Relic Cracking Pity / Relic Stacking / Fusion / Better Refinement: while it's not the most elegant solution, there's a case to be made for a relic pity system. The whole point of such a system is to negate the need for attacking the problem with sheer RNG volume. As such, I think one possible solution is to make it so players can stack relics of the same type based on refinement. Basically, if you want a mid-tier item, say, and you have two copies of that relic, you refine both to Flawless and then perform a sort of valence fusion on them. Since they're both flawless, the mid-tier is either given extreme priority or more likely is the only tier left. You might even make it so that you can perform another fusion, specifying a specific slot in the mid-tier by fusing it with an Intact (slot 1), Exceptional (slot 2) or Flawless (slot 3) relic of the same type, or maybe even any random relic. This makes groups much less necessary as you can get your desired result using the materials on hand, acts as a sort of pity system but not without cost, and is granular enough to even specify a specific reward, but not without cost. Alternative to this whole fusion concept, we could otherwise expand refinement to have this kind of specificity naturally built into it - for example you can spend x amount of extra void traces to specify which tier you want, and then x amount to specify which item in that tier, but I think it's probably better to use fusion since void traces aren't all that spectacularly abundant - so if we rebuild the refinement systems in such a way we should also update the void trace acquisition rates. Basically both methods are way for players to expend resources to avoid bad RNG. Of course, a straight pity system that tracks how many relics of what refinement you have attempted is perhaps possible, but very difficult because of the sheer volume of relics and the fact that there's no way to know which item in which tier in particular you are after.
• Deeper Relic Fusion: what if you could take 5 relics you didn't care about at all and do what you can do with mods: perform a fusion to get a new random relic? The point of this is to help cut down on relic clutter and stockpiling. Perhaps spice it up by adding a void trace refinement to it for an extra chance at a vaulted relic? Or make it so you can fuse relics into aya?
• Advanced Relic Tiers and Refinement: okay here's another idea. What if we dispensed with having multiple items in the same refinement tier and instead had 6 tiers, each with only one item in it? Then assign a gradually increasing refinement cost to each tier, and the refinement increases the chances of that item by the same amount regardless of tier. So a tier 2 refinement costs 20 traces and increases the chances of that item only by like 500%, and a tier 6 refinement costs 100 traces and also increases the chances of that item only by like 500%. While the benefits of this should be obvious, one possible downside is that it multiplies the difficulty with recruitment chat. Still, that's a tradeoff I'd take, and for new releases it wouldn't actually balloon it hardly at all, since everyone is after only one item in each relic anyway.
• Advanced Recruitment: automatically create matchmaking for each newly released item, with a prerequisite for entry being the appropriate refinement. This eliminates the mess of the recruitment channel, makes sure that everyone has the right relic, makes sure that relic is appropriately refined, and is just generally awesome at streamlining the whole process. The only sticky part is the mission selection, but this really isn't that big a deal PLUS unlike the current situation it could tell all the players exactly what mission type it is in advance so they could gear up for it, and there could maybe be a SP option I suppose - thus eliminating yet another issue with the current system.
• Advanced Recruitment II: create an exterminate mission (or something) for each released part, put them in the alerts or somewhere, with the prerequisite relic and refinement a condition for starting matchmaking. This is the same as above, except it skips a step - it's mission based instead of group based, and is probably cleaner and more efficient.

That's all I've got at the moment

Edited July 29, 2023 by CrownOfShadows
typos, clarity

[trst]

All of this is pretty unnecessary with how the current system works.

You can already get 333 Relics (108 if you ignore SP) in one go by dumping all your standing/Steel Essence into the pack shops which is something that can be easily done each week and prepared for in advance. The game itself needs a group finder system (that's basically what automatic matchmaking would be) which would be a better solution than time limited nodes. Condensing Relic farms into single nodes is going to dilute the drop pools and potentially make it harder to get the Relics you want. And there's no need for higher refinement tiers, reduced RNG, or whatever else when Rad Shares already exist (they already increase your odds from 10% to about 34% per run).

Trade chat exists. It's already the specific purchasing option, pity system, and universal trading you're looking for. Just sell off the duplicate/unwanted Prime parts you end up with and use the resulting Platinum to buy the parts/Relics you do want.

Also Aya did not dilute drop tables. All it did was replace Vaulted Relics that were already there.

Edited July 29, 2023 by trst

[CrownOfShadows]

Oh, I guess it's all perfect then, what was I thinking?

[MutoManiac]

I like your solutions, but I also prefer to avoid all that nonsense and start selling prime parts or rivens before a release. That’s how I bought Wisp Prime for 180p from trade chat on day one. A lot less frustrating and I get to play the frame and enjoy the game more. 

Most Primed mods from Baro can sell (at rank 0) for about 60p. So if in a hurry, sell them at 40p each and you have enough for a frame very quickly.

If they were to implement your idea of advanced recruitment and especially if they were exterminate missions, I would def be into that though and play them a lot.

[trst]

11 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Oh, I guess it's all perfect then, what was I thinking?

I wouldn't call it perfect but rather that the whole system is inoffensive when you use the mechanics on offer. Trade, Rad Shares, and all the daily/weekly shops really equal out the potential problems with it.

Only remaining issue is finding Rad Shares when a Relic isn't popular, especially if it's Vaulted and not in Resurgence. But that's where more matchmaking options could come in and improve not just that but all other farming in the game too.

[PublikDomain]

One thing I'd really like to see are condensed Relics. Instead of Axi A92, Neo Z36, Bingus J55 nonsense Relics that are all jumbled up and need to be vaulted, replaced, shuffled, and regenerated every 3 months, why not do what Baro and Prime Resurgence already do and just have one set of Relics for each PA right from the start?

For example, Baro's Axi V8 and Neo O1:

These contain every item you need for Volt PA. If DE started with this they'd never have needed to add all of these Relics: Axi N1, Axi N3, Axi V1, Axi V4, Axi L4, Axi K1, Axi T1, Lith V1, Lith F1, Lith K1, Lith O2, Lith F2, Meso C2, Meso O3, Meso V2, Meso V3, Neo V1, Neo V8, Neo N3, and Neo V8. It's just Relic E-waste.

Another example being the condensed Resurgence Relics like the current Lith K5, Lith M7, Meso E5. Neo B6, Axi H5, and Axi A12 which in just 6 Relics replace the dozens that contain Banshee and Mirage PA items.

Condensed Relic sets already exist and are already being used, so use them more often! Make 4 Relics per PA that contain just that PA's items plus filler like Forma and evergreen Primes as needed. Then instead of the 520+ Relics we have today, there'd be about 160. And then instead of giving them nonsense names like "A4" and "G7" they could just be given a set name. What do you get from Axi N1? Nezha? Nidus? Nyx? Nobbleberry? Wrong, you get Ash. But call it "Ash Axi Relic" and wow, now you can tell what's in that Relic without needing to look it up!

It'd make matchmaking easier to understand ("H [Nidus Meso Relic] 3/4"), make matchmaking easier to organize (since there'd only be one Nidus Meso Relic instead of the current 9), and make it easier for DE to manage and maintain (since they can just add/remove 4 Relics whenever they need to Vault/Unvault something instead of tracking down dozens to remove or replace). And it's not like this would need to change much downstream because, while Relic shares would need fewer total runs overall (since even "failing" a Share would get you something from that set), that can be managed through initial Relic drop rates.

Edited July 29, 2023 by PublikDomain

[(PSN)robotwars7]

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Forming groups via recruit chat is clunky. Now with crossplay its even more chaotic. Yes, there's more opportunity I suppose, there's also a lot more abandonment, confusion and general difficulty with the amount of chat spam.

I've never seen recruit chat move as fast as it did on thursday, it was unreadable, and I think 99% of players got in through sheer luck: it's a good job I can read fast and memorize the names of the people putting up requests, or otherwise, it'd be near impossible. that said, it has calmed down now, and on average there's about a 2 week period after a Prime Launch where it's mostly new radshares, but after the first week, many people have either traded or been successful in their farming and thus there are less groups. no idea what solution could be made for this though, and I wouldn't say the current system is that bad, It's certainly better than no system at all.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Relic acquisition: being able to buy relics from a variety of sources has relieved this problem a little, but people will still run out of relics even so due to poor RNG, and have to farm them again.

the actual relic system could do with an overhaul in terms of condensing them down to perhaps one relics for each prime item, offering all of it's respective parts as drops, that way there won't be literally hundreds of different relics: even DE themselves can't keep track, there have been multiple occasions where they literally forgot to add in relics thinking they were there, or naming a new relic the same as an old one, and having to change it. ideally, one relic for all potential drops would greatly simplify the system, though I doubt DE would bother overhauling the system now.

as for newer players getting relics, they are available almost everywhere as it is, I don't think we need any further sources of relics, and it doesn't take players that long to reach a point where they can join a syndicate; plus they can farm relics while levelling up weapons or some other form of multitasking for maximum efficiency.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Aya Dilution: relic packs may contain aya.

all we really need is more stuff to buy with Aya: it becomes basically useless once you've got the few items being sold, and it can't be converted into Regal Aya (10 Aya = 1 Regal Aya seems like a fair conversion rate IMO, especially since you aren't guaranteed to get Aya from Relic Packs); if Varzia's shop had more stuff to offer. as well as Kuva, Rivens and other evergreen rewards, Aya would be fine.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

RNG can bless you or seriously make you want to put your keyboard through your monitor

story as old as randomized loot itself; I wouldn't mind them introducing some kind of pity system for specific prime parts though, even if it's only for the rarest ones: you choose a specific part to work towards, and if you get it within a certain number of runs, you can choose another part instead, but if it takes over a certain number of runs, you get the part anyway, but no further pity uses. IMO that's a balanced way of keeping it so that there is a guarantee, but not one that gives players all their parts too quickly, because DE still need people playing the game after all.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Relic overabundance: typically many more relics are acquired in the process than are used, as only a small fraction carry the newly released parts, and during normal non-release play relics also are regularly acquired. This is especially great for new players, but for veterans the disparity between acquisition and usage becomes more and more extreme. We have hundreds and hundreds of relics sitting in inventory and no feasible way to ever use all of them. Even doing non-stop fissures will never burn through them, because more relics are acquired in the very process.

this I wholeheartedly agree with, and what I find most frustrating about it is that the solution is incredibly simple; a relic kiosk. literally the same function as the Ducat Kiosk we all know and love, but instead of putting in junk prime parts, you put in Junk relics. ideally I'd like it to be an exchange for void traces or perhaps rarer relics but at this point I'm so desperate to get rid of the THOUSANDS of relis I have accrued, I'll take anything, even credits at this point. it also makes using the searchbar/sort function mandatory because otherwise it takes forever to find the right relic by eye alone.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

reate a featured game mode that is only available during releases.

as much as I would like this, as it could be themed around the newest prime themselves - Wisp's would be about fighting Sentients on earth for example - and it would also be an appropriate place for the specialized relics I mentioned earlier - only Wisp, Fulmin and Gunsen Prime relics on offer - the sad part is that even making a small event takes DE a lot more Devtime than they would like to spend on other than what they already had planned: look at how dog days gets regurgitated every summer, the same as it was the previous summer: they can't/won't make a newer version, so they just recycle the old one. 

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Standardize farming locations

that would only be effective if the relic system was also "condensed", because even within a single tier there are HUNDREDS of relics from A1 to Z-whatever. the only other option would be to have a weekly rotation, so one week would be Meso's A through F, then G through M etc. something like that.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Make relics individually purchasable f

DE will never go for this, it's too convenient for us.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Make release relics purchasable for Aya:

this *might* be feasible, but you sure as hell aren't getting them for like 5 Aya, probably more like 20 Aya per relic, so that it's only an alternative for those who have been truly shafted by their relic pack openings.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Universal Exchange:

hah, if only. something like this would be great, but considering how many different resources we have in the game now, just trying to come up with conversion rates for each item based on rarity would be an absolute nightmare for DE. it would for anyone TBH..

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Create a new relic refinement level:

jesus christ no, 100 a time is enough, they just need to further reduce the chance of getting commons from radiant relics or remove them entirely: there's still 2 uncommon drops in the way, but those aren't minded as much since they are actually worth a decent amoutn of Ducats once they are all added up. oh, and make it so that Forma BPs are either ONLY common (never Uncommon) or replace the dreaded "silver Forma BP" with an actual built Forma. 

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Relic Cracking Pity

again, I'd be fine with this, but it's only really need to apply to the raare (gold) parts, and the number of relics for it being cracked first would need to be high, say 15-20, maybe even more, and only then would you get the guarantee. that may seem harsh, but when fissures can be captures that can be done in under 5 mins, and the relic being used is a common drop from a low level mission, having the pity at like 5 runs is too low.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Deeper Relic Fusion

I've always seen this as another alternative to the relic kiosk: being able to take random relics and either make a different relic of the same tier, or maybe add a few Void Traces and guarantee a random relci of the next tier up, e.g. 5 liths to make a Meso, 10 Lith's to make a Neo, 15 to make an Axi etc, something like that. the actual numbers could be determined by DE, but it'd help get rid of relic surplus that's for sure.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Advanced Relic Tiers and Refinement:

this also borders on being too convenient, certainly with those numbers, and it'd make radsharing more complicated, so no thanks.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Advanced Recruitment: automatically create matchmaking for each newly released item, with a prerequisite for entry being the appropriate refinement.

this is a grat idea, and it makes use of a system that's already in the game: prerequisite gear items, just like Formorian Disruptors, Razorback Ciphers etc. this is actually viable.. perhaps the system could be extended to plyaer hosts as well, so for example, I click "radshare options", then type the name of the relic I want to Radshare, and then regardless of my matchmaking settings, if I try to start a fissure mission for that relic, it will require ALL present players to have that radiant relic in their inventory (would be even better if they no longer had to actually equip it, because the system already "knows" they have it, otherwise they couldn't possibly have joined.). the only downside is that I've no idea how hard that would be to implement, but it sounds like a coding nightmare to me lol.

TLDR: soem of your ideas are good, and some of them are TOO good, there still has to be SOME effort on the part of the player. 

[CrownOfShadows]

21 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I've never seen recruit chat move as fast as it did on thursday, it was unreadable, and I think 99% of players got in through sheer luck:

Even with filters, it was insanity. Even once you were in a group, you had a 50/50 chance of someone ditching, seemed like.

21 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

as for newer players getting relics, they are available almost everywhere as it is, I don't think we need any further sources of relics, and it doesn't take players that long to reach a point where they can join a syndicate; plus they can farm relics while levelling up weapons or some other form of multitasking for maximum efficiency.

I'm not sure if it changed, but if there are still requirements for each syndicate tier those can be bottlenecks, also because of MR they won't have high affinity caps, so basically they aren't going to be able to charge up 120k of standing like veterans can, they may only be able to purchase one relic pack, that's my basic point there.

24 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I wouldn't mind them introducing some kind of pity system for specific prime parts though, even if it's only for the rarest ones: you choose a specific part to work towards, and if you get it within a certain number of runs, you can choose another part instead, but if it takes over a certain number of runs, you get the part anyway, but no further pity uses.

If this was only for new releases it would work - although to be fair it would have to incorporate a check on refinement level, which gets really complicated - what if you run 1 radiant, 1 flawless and 3 intacts? Would have to create some kind of disconnected relic specific refinement metric or something. Or do only radiants count for x reward selection, and flawless for y selection? Seems quite impractical for all relics though - there's no way DE can create goals for that many relics or items and keep track of it for every single player and every relic that contains that item and it's refinement level, that's a data processing and storage issue the size of K2. Even doing that for all players only for release relics gives me an icky programmer stomach.

35 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

the solution is incredibly simple; a relic kiosk. literally the same function as the Ducat Kiosk we all know and love, but instead of putting in junk prime parts, you put in Junk relics. ideally I'd like it to be an exchange for void traces or perhaps rarer relics but at this point I'm so desperate to get rid of the THOUSANDS of relis I have accrued, I'll take anything, even credits at this point.

Yeah something like that would be great. Or an automated ducanator that just crunches relics into rough overall ducat value for you.

31 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

that would only be effective if the relic system was also "condensed", because even within a single tier there are HUNDREDS of relics from A1 to Z-whatever. the only other option would be to have a weekly rotation, so one week would be Meso's A through F, then G through M etc. something like that.

Hmmm.... perhaps I'm not communicating it very well. Basically all I'm suggesting here is that we keep Apollo, Ur and Olympus exactly as they are, just sift out any relic that's not axi from Apollo and so on, and add a new node for lith (or make Olympus lith and add one for meso). I don't see why we need condensing to make this work, BUT I was intrigued by PublikDomain's suggestion and would be up for it. If it benefits this idea, all the better.

38 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

jesus christ no, 100 a time is enough, they just need to further reduce the chance of getting commons from radiant relics or remove them entirely: there's still 2 uncommon drops in the way, but those aren't minded as much since they are actually worth a decent amoutn of Ducats once they are all added up. oh, and make it so that Forma BPs are either ONLY common (never Uncommon) or replace the dreaded "silver Forma BP" with an actual built Forma.

Shrug, different solution to the same problem. Would I invest 150 or 200 void traces into a relic if it meant I didn't need to sacrifice 12 radiant relics to the god of luck, 2 or 3 at the very most? Yes I definitely would. Happily. With gusto. With alacrity. Maybe I would've got the result with 1 radiant. Could care less. Hell, I'd pump 500 traces into a relic if it guaranteed me something. I spent 1200 and got nothing for it. That's bs.

45 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

as much as I would like this, as it could be themed around the newest prime themselves - Wisp's would be about fighting Sentients on earth for example - and it would also be an appropriate place for the specialized relics I mentioned earlier - only Wisp, Fulmin and Gunsen Prime relics on offer - the sad part is that even making a small event takes DE a lot more Devtime than they would like to spend on other than what they already had planned: look at how dog days gets regurgitated every summer, the same as it was the previous summer: they can't/won't make a newer version, so they just recycle the old one.

I was actually imagining a featured game mode that is re-used for every release. Of course, having a customized version particular to each frame would be super cool, but I agree not worth it for DE. They can definitely make game modes - look at all that time spent on Kahl, Undercroft, etc.

49 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

this also borders on being too convenient, certainly with those numbers, and it'd make radsharing more complicated, so no thanks.

I didn't exactly bust out my calculator. By too convenient I assume you mean less RNG. Well, that's kinda the point. I understand that RNG here is basically a grind timer in disguise, but other people's success doesn't alleviate another's suffering, or vice versa. RNG has always been bad in this way. It balances across the population, but it sure as hell doesn't balance for the individuals. TBH, I'd rather sit in a mission for two hours than run 30 captures, refine all those relics and then wrestle my way into 5 groups or so who all hopefully stay together past the first 30 seconds, and maybe get an item - if not, run ANOTHER 30 captures, etc. The entire experience is miserable, from beginning to end. Anyways.... there's still RNG in this solution, but you are weighted towards what you want instead of what you don't want, and that's great, I like that. Gamble in 1 direction instead of 6. This tier-sharing refinement is conceptually and practically not good, why would anyone want that? It would make radsharing complicated, but as I said, on release day that wouldn't come into play really, and even afterwards, if all relics were converted to this, it would make farming things, especially specific things from rare and vaulted relics, much more reliable. We need to take the pain away.

1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

hah, if only. something like this would be great, but considering how many different resources we have in the game now, just trying to come up with conversion rates for each item based on rarity would be an absolute nightmare for DE. it would for anyone TBH..

Yes... but then again we got helminth resource balancing somehow... that's not every resource, not even close, but maybe we don't need *every* resource in such a store either, or not at first. That said, I'm honestly not sure if it would be good overall or not, but it's interesting. Having a way to get things like atmo systems from a universal currency would save people some major headaches, but the conversion percentage would have to be punishing enough to still encourage people to play the intended source I suppose, and use the market as a last ditch 'i'm so frikkin tired of grinding for this' option. Player trading expansion and streamlining is probably the best counterargument to this idea, and probably easier to do idk - in the end, they're working towards the same thing.

 

[Skoomaseller]

your ideas are nice, though I do remember DE saying somewhere that they have to be careful when adjusting anything related to Primes since it is their moneymaker.

[Merrcenary]

8 часов назад, CrownOfShadows сказал:

Make release relics purchasable for Aya: a left field solution - this may or may not be good, I'm not sure how much aya players generally stockpile or how that works out with the cost (personally I have very little aya, like <10, and it takes a while to accumulate), but this would be a good way to provide an alternate release relic source, perhaps only during the week of release. I am also unsure precisely how this would affect new players, especially those without access to the void, but you get that fairly early. I would note that this would actually incentivize Hepit and Ukko even more, which is not really something I want, personally.

thats the only thing i could kinda agree with. anything else - no i don't think this system needs it. since it will just trivialize it even more. and people can farm newly released frames in less then 3 hours with the current system already

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Oh, I guess it's all perfect then, what was I thinking?

Not sure if this is meant to be snarky or not but @trst brings up good points. I mean, I don't know what happened but, back iny trade obsession days, I could exchange a dup riven and/or another prime part and could get the newest prime pretty quickly. Besides, DE still has to keep some of the method somewhat annoying because of the needed revenue stream opportunities. 

[(XBOX)Lady Ukita]

My only problem is that forming squads sucks, Recruiting Chat is barely serviceable. Legit just copy AlecaFrame's TennoFinder feature so forming groups with players is easier/less of a headache.

Edited July 30, 2023 by (XBOX)Lady Ukita
Edit

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Not sure if this is meant to be snarky or not but @trst brings up good points.

Alright, let's go through them.

11 hours ago, trst said:

All of this is pretty unnecessary with how the current system works.

Just because there are ways around a miserable system doesn't mean that system shouldn't be fixed. Further, just because you personally are able to get around the system doesn't mean everyone else is able to. Further, at some point, somebody has to crack relics, and those people, even if they are far down the food chain from you, are miserable.

11 hours ago, trst said:

You can already get 333 Relics (108 if you ignore SP) in one go by dumping all your standing/Steel Essence into the pack shops which is something that can be easily done each week and prepared for in advance.

I'm well aware. I hit my Teshin limit. I got a lot of relics. I wasn't counting, but it didn't feel like 225, but sure. Whatever the number, I got about 15 related the release. I then dumped all my syndicate standings. I got some more relics. Of those, I got perhaps another half dozen related to the release. Of these 20 something relics, I was able to get Wisp and the Fulmin with only having to go farm 3-4 extra relics when RNG shafted me. This left the Gunsen almost entire for some reason, so I thought, sure, I'll go farm the Gunsen. Fine and dandy, right? Wrong.

Just farming the Meso G5's is a complete and utter nightmare. How do you get them? Well they're in a pool of zillions of other meso relics, and you have to rely on RNG to gift them to you. Where do you farm them? Well, that's Ukko. Oh and guess what? Running Ukko also throws Aya and Neo in the mix. So I run Ukko like 30 times to get 4 or 5 Meso G5s. I take these G5's, refine them to radiant, try to get in a group. Oh but guess what, it's the highest rarity tier, so even radiant groups struggle to acquire them. I run all 5 and get nothing. Ok, back to the drawing board. Except now I'm so frikkin tired of running Titania through Ukko that I decide to try some long Olympus runs. Turns out, that pool is just as diluted. I got 2 after 4 long olympus runs, oh and because nobody runs the SP olympus unless it's a fissure I had to run the regular version or do it alone. So I frustrated a bunch of noobs by speed killing everything, which unfortunately resulted in several abandoned runs. Sorry guys. I need relics and this needs to be efficient. I did it solo for a bit, but idk, I'd just got out of running solo Ukko for hours, and wasn't in the mood. Finally, I burned out on that, getting hardly any G5s in the process, and went back to Ukko, but then I quit that, couldn't handle anymore. I'm telling this whole story because everyone seems to be forgetting what RNG relic grinding is like. It sucks. It's miserable. It needs to be improved.

RNG is a bad mechanic. RNG stacked on RNG is a worse mechanic. RNG stacked on RNG stacked on RNG is... yes, quite evil.

Oh and let's take a scenario where a player doesn't have SP. Where a player can only buy 1 or 2 relic packs because they have a 20k or 40k standing limit. Can you remember what that's like? If you can't remember, can you imagine? Yes, you can also get some from random vendors here and there. Great, let's say you get 6 relic packs, using every possible avenue. 6*3=18. How many of those 18 relics are release related? Like 3-4? Oh and also we should note that void trace acquisition and storage is also a serious limiting factor for many newer players. How are you going to refine 10 relics to radiant if your trace cap is low, if you can even get that many?

12 hours ago, trst said:

The game itself needs a group finder system (that's basically what automatic matchmaking would be) which would be a better solution than time limited nodes.

TBH, I have no clue what "group finder system" he's imagining or why that magically invalidates the idea for streamlining recruitment chat by creating automatic matchmaking queues for fissures. His mention of time limited nodes is cherry picking, that was but one suggestion among many, and I even went to the trouble of showing I myself did not like that approach.

12 hours ago, trst said:

Condensing Relic farms into single nodes is going to dilute the drop pools and potentially make it harder to get the Relics you want.

Again, this one possible solution among many. Don't like it? Great, what about the others? Or do you have a solution of your own perhaps?

12 hours ago, trst said:

And there's no need for higher refinement tiers, reduced RNG, or whatever else when Rad Shares already exist (they already increase your odds from 10% to about 34% per run).

Oh yes there is. Surely I don't need to explain for like the 5th time how RNG can completely invalidate radshares?

12 hours ago, trst said:

Trade chat exists. It's already the specific purchasing option, pity system, and universal trading you're looking for. Just sell off the duplicate/unwanted Prime parts you end up with and use the resulting Platinum to buy the parts/Relics you do want.

Except that near release prices skyrocket. Also, as I already said, somebody needs to farm and crack the relics in the first place in order to feed your glorious trade. You have an immense stockpile of platinum? Good for you. Can I buy the wisp pack outright and avoid the whole thing? Yes. Does that make the farming and cracking system awesome? No it does not. THAT is what this post is about. The system sucks and its miserable. You don't need to slosh through it? Good for you. It still exists, it still sucks, and its still miserable. And yes, people still use it. If you think nobody is farming and cracking relics on release day.... you're very out of touch.

12 hours ago, trst said:

Also Aya did not dilute drop tables. All it did was replace Vaulted Relics that were already there.

I actually did not know that they straight up replaced vaulted relics. However, 1 aya does not = 1 vaulted relic. So even so, it is still diluting by this fact alone.

------------------------

2 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Besides, DE still has to keep some of the method somewhat annoying because of the needed revenue stream opportunities. 

This is a bad take imo. DE does not need to be ANNOYING to make money. Its a bad, flawed system, always has been, and it should be fixed.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 hours ago, Merrcenary said:

thats the only thing i could kinda agree with. anything else - no i don't think this system needs it. since it will just trivialize it even more. and people can farm newly released frames in less then 3 hours with the current system already

You're missing the point. I don't care if they want to force it to be 5 hours of grind, or 10, or 20. The point is that it's miserable because of RNG. RNG sucks. That's the point.

Seriously just force me to play kuva survival for 4 hours to earn Wisp only. I'd prefer that to this bs relic grind.

[Merrcenary]

3 минуты назад, CrownOfShadows сказал:

You're missing the point. I don't care if they want to force it to be 5 hours of grind, or 10, or 20. The point is that it's miserable because of RNG. RNG sucks. That's the point.

Seriously just force me to play kuva survival for 4 hours to earn Wisp only. I'd prefer that to this bs relic grind.

how can it be miserable if majority of players get newly released primes in ~2 hours after the patch?

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Merrcenary said:

how can it be miserable if majority of players get newly released primes in ~2 hours after the patch?

Misery is not directly connected to chronology. How is hell miserable if only lasts 5 minutes? Because it's hell dude.

[Merrcenary]

2 минуты назад, CrownOfShadows сказал:

Misery is not directly connected to chronology. How is hell miserable if only lasts 5 minutes? Because it's hell dude.

if opening relics (which exists years in game) is hell for you then idk, probably you are playing the wrong game

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Merrcenary said:

if opening relics (which exists years in game) is hell for you then idk, probably you are playing the wrong game

Lol. I point out a serious, long-standing problem and you tell me to get lost?

[Merrcenary]

3 минуты назад, CrownOfShadows сказал:

Lol. I point out a serious, long-standing problem and you tell me to get lost?

And what exactly is the long-standing problem?

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

17 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You're missing the point. I don't care if they want to force it to be 5 hours of grind, or 10, or 20. The point is that it's miserable because of RNG. RNG sucks. That's the point.

the RNG bs i can deal with for relics

BUT 7 VOIDTRACES UNLESS I DEMOCRACY WITH OTHER PLAYERS already suffering one single choice is annoying but the void trace RNG REQUIRES RESOURCE BOOSTERS

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Merrcenary said:

And what exactly is the long-standing problem?

1. That farming release relics is miserable because of reward pools and farming locations/game modes.
2. That cracking relics is miserable because of RNG and imprecise refinement.
3. That getting groups in recruit chat during release for radshares is painful and could be automated or streamlined.

[CrownOfShadows]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

the RNG bs i can deal with for relics

BUT 7 VOIDTRACES UNLESS I DEMOCRACY WITH OTHER PLAYERS already suffering one single choice is annoying but the void trace RNG REQUIRES RESOURCE BOOSTERS

This is very true and something I didn't mention. I'm sure there's an apocalyptic surge in resource booster purchases during releases just to help everyone get traces.

[Merrcenary]

2 минуты назад, CrownOfShadows сказал:

That farming release relics is miserable because of reward pools and farming locations/game modes.

as i said, this argument is a joke since people finish their farming in ~2-3 hours (and considering that 2/3 of that time they are doing fissures opening relics)
 

Цитата

That cracking relics is miserable because of RNG and imprecise refinement.

that's the thing about so-called grinding games (poe for example with rng in all items stats)

Цитата

That getting groups in recruit chat during release for radshares is painful and could be automated or streamlined.

who could imagine that coop looter shooter game called warframe would encourage you to group with people for benefits🥴
honestly (and don't be offended) but if this is long-standing problems for you then like i said you probably playing the wrong game

[CrownOfShadows]

12 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

as i said, this argument is a joke since people finish their farming in ~2-3 hours (and considering that 2/3 of that time they are doing fissures opening relics)

You're a joke. I dare you to go farm Ukko until you get 4 Meso G5s. I DARE you. What's that? Oh you don't do that farm? That's what I thought.

14 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

that's the thing about so-called grinding games (poe for example with rng in all items stats)

You said nothing.

15 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

honestly (and don't be offended) but if this is long-standing problems for you then like i said you probably playing the wrong game

So... let me get this straight. You have no counterarguments and you're just telling me to get lost, AGAIN, right? Touch grass dude.

[trst]

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Just because there are ways around a miserable system doesn't mean that system shouldn't be fixed. Further, just because you personally are able to get around the system doesn't mean everyone else is able to. Further, at some point, somebody has to crack relics, and those people, even if they are far down the food chain from you, are miserable.

They're not ways around the system, they're all part of the same overall system.

Saying this is like saying the game's combat is inherently miserable and should fixed because you choose to run missions without mods.

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I'm well aware. I hit my Teshin limit. I got a lot of relics. I wasn't counting, but it didn't feel like 225, but sure. Whatever the number, I got about 15 related the release. I then dumped all my syndicate standings. I got some more relics. Of those, I got perhaps another half dozen related to the release. Of these 20 something relics, I was able to get Wisp and the Fulmin with only having to go farm 3-4 extra relics when RNG shafted me. This left the Gunsen almost entire for some reason, so I thought, sure, I'll go farm the Gunsen. Fine and dandy, right? Wrong.

Just farming the Meso G5's is a complete and utter nightmare. How do you get them? Well they're in a pool of zillions of other meso relics, and you have to rely on RNG to gift them to you. Where do you farm them? Well, that's Ukko. Oh and guess what? Running Ukko also throws Aya and Neo in the mix. So I run Ukko like 30 times to get 4 or 5 Meso G5s. I take these G5's, refine them to radiant, try to get in a group. Oh but guess what, it's the highest rarity tier, so even radiant groups struggle to acquire them. I run all 5 and get nothing. Ok, back to the drawing board. Except now I'm so frikkin tired of running Titania through Ukko that I decide to try some long Olympus runs. Turns out, that pool is just as diluted. I got 2 after 4 long olympus runs, oh and because nobody runs the SP olympus unless it's a fissure I had to run the regular version or do it alone. So I frustrated a bunch of noobs by speed killing everything, which unfortunately resulted in several abandoned runs. Sorry guys. I need relics and this needs to be efficient. I did it solo for a bit, but idk, I'd just got out of running solo Ukko for hours, and wasn't in the mood. Finally, I burned out on that, getting hardly any G5s in the process, and went back to Ukko, but then I quit that, couldn't handle anymore. I'm telling this whole story because everyone seems to be forgetting what RNG relic grinding is like. It sucks. It's miserable. It needs to be improved.

RNG is a bad mechanic. RNG stacked on RNG is a worse mechanic. RNG stacked on RNG stacked on RNG is... yes, quite evil.

Ok, and? If you're tired of running the same missions then mix it up or take a different approach. Olympus has twice the drop rate than Ukko plus there's Kappa and Ur (also Disruption) with it in the A pool at the same rate. Also in T2 Defense in Io, Paimon, and Helene in the A rotation at the same rate.

But if you're tired of that then you could always just wait for daily reset for Syndicate standing or the weekly one on the SP shop. Nothing is forcing you to farm these right now.

But if you do want them now then take the trading route by running the other part Relics you have, or anything else of value. and trade those away for the Gunsen parts or their Relics.

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Oh and let's take a scenario where a player doesn't have SP. Where a player can only buy 1 or 2 relic packs because they have a 20k or 40k standing limit. Can you remember what that's like? If you can't remember, can you imagine? Yes, you can also get some from random vendors here and there. Great, let's say you get 6 relic packs, using every possible avenue. 6*3=18. How many of those 18 relics are release related? Like 3-4? Oh and also we should note that void trace acquisition and storage is also a serious limiting factor for many newer players. How are you going to refine 10 relics to radiant if your trace cap is low, if you can even get that many?

The only requirement to enter SP is finishing the Star Chart plus every player has a 132k standing limit once they hit max rank with a Syndicate. If someone is new enough to be lacking these then they have core progression to be working towards instead of Primes. It should be expected, in all games really, that progressing anything is going to be slower/harder when you're new and/or going at it too soon.

And what does it matter what their trace cap is when everyone gets traces at the same rate. Plus the cap being tied to mastery means it's again progression they should be working towards first.

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

TBH, I have no clue what "group finder system" he's imagining or why that magically invalidates the idea for streamlining recruitment chat by creating automatic matchmaking queues for fissures.

"That's basically what automatic matchmaking would be."

Generally it's a filter system you fill out that then presents you with lobbies and/or automatically puts you into a group of players with the same filters set. So if you filtered for a "Meso G5 Rad Share" then you'd get put into a group of players who're also looking for exactly that. But point being that it's a general name for similar systems found in other games.

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

His mention of time limited nodes is cherry picking, that was but one suggestion among many, and I even went to the trouble of showing I myself did not like that approach.

Again, this one possible solution among many. Don't like it? Great, what about the others? Or do you have a solution of your own perhaps?

You do know that you posted this thread in General Discussion, right? You posted ideas and they're being discussed. If you didn't want a discussion then you should have condensed this into a feedback post and posted it in the appropriate sub forums.

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Oh yes there is. Surely I don't need to explain for like the 5th time how RNG can completely invalidate radshares?

Being unlucky doesn't invalidate a Rad Share. And point being that a Rad Share already more than triples your odds of getting a rare drop. As well increasing that further makes them even easier to get thus hurting player trade and DE's PA sales.

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Except that near release prices skyrocket. Also, as I already said, somebody needs to farm and crack the relics in the first place in order to feed your glorious trade. You have an immense stockpile of platinum? Good for you. Can I buy the wisp pack outright and avoid the whole thing? Yes. Does that make the farming and cracking system awesome? No it does not. THAT is what this post is about. The system sucks and its miserable. You don't need to slosh through it? Good for you. It still exists, it still sucks, and its still miserable. And yes, people still use it. If you think nobody is farming and cracking relics on release day.... you're very out of touch.

And if you want to farm a new Prime set early you can make use of said prices. Either by selling duplicate part drops, selling the Relics, or selling everything you get so you can buy the frame back later when the price plummets within a week. And again the system is only that miserable if you're ignoring the routes you can take via trade.

Also if you're that opposed to the system you can opt out of it entirely. Go farm anything else that can be sold for Plat (other Primes, Prime junk, Rivens, Arcanes, Fish, etc) then buy the Prime on release or wait a week for the price to drop.

10 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I actually did not know that they straight up replaced vaulted relics. However, 1 aya does not = 1 vaulted relic. So even so, it is still diluting by this fact alone.

How does one Aya not equal one vaulted Relic? They literally replaced said Relics with Aya and Aya is traded to Varia at a rate of one per Relic.