Stop adding "shoot mechanic" to melees and call it "coool new weapon" - add mod that does this

[quxier]

Corufel or Tenet agendus has "heavy attack shoot projectile". Verdilac has projectile on block-combo. At this point this gets boring. It doesn't make melee "new and interesting" when we have dozen of those already.

It's better to make some melee class or mod. Gunblades with Bullet dance shoots from the ground (although combos are broken like you want to move and it stops your frame) but cannot shoot from the air. Glaives can shoot with both places (ground & air), can charge/detonate it and projectile bounces over enemies. It has less combos than bullet dance. Warfrans have (at least should have, currently only Arum spinosa & Quassus, not sure about gunsen prime) projectile on heavy attack. They are not perfect but they at least show some "new things". If you can make new melee class, that is not copy paste and has new feature(s), then you can do it. In my opinion, adding new melees with projectiles just make those weapons much worse. Add mods with projectile (more later) so you can make more unique melees.

 

Projectiles mod:

- Heavy shot: projectile on heavy attack

- Block shot: projectile on block combo

- Aerial shot: projectile from air (e.g. requiring aimgliding + melee attack; no 2x/bullet jump like exodia)

- Slide shot: projectile from sliding (e.g. like Tatsu)

[Seele]

Could not the same logic be extended to melee weapons without projectiles? Skana does straight sword attacks that correspond to the equipped stance mod when you press E, and so does Pangolin Prime. Where's the innovation?

I think it's fine, being localized to certain weapons. If I like whips but don't like shooting projectiles, I have options; if I like whips and I do like shooting projectiles, there's the Verdilac. If my main objective, for whatever reason, is firing projectiles with my melee weapon, I would opt for a Gunblade or just use Excalibur or Baruuk.

By making the projectile-firing-melee mechanic a mod (presumably by removing any innate ability from weapons that currently do), you must sacrifice mod-based DPS to make room for it, and that's very much working against your premise of ensuring that new projectile-melees don't invalidate old ones, because it would likely invalidate all of them instead.

I think the more elegant solution is simply encouraging the developers to explore more creative twists on new melee weapons. Nothing need be taken from the existing arsenal to do so.

[quxier]

43 minutes ago, Seele said:

Could not the same logic be extended to melee weapons without projectiles? Skana does straight sword attacks that correspond to the equipped stance mod when you press E, and so does Pangolin Prime. Where's the innovation?

Yes, in my opinion same logic applies to melee system. However your example isn't great. We don't need hundreds of weapons behaves differently. It's fine to have slight variation.

As for sword type we have Mire & Dark split sword with high status but low crit. Plasma sword has more toned down & equal chances (18% & 2.0x vs 5/9% cc & 1.5x).

To be honest I think that's good when have few variation in given melee type. That way you can pick what you want (e.g. status or crit).

 

However that logic applies to melee types & stances. I use to say that stances and melee types should be reworked/changed as they are very similar to each other (with some exception of course). Heavy scythe & Double NIkana (I've just seen yt) haven't brought anything new. They are just flashy animation that do similar things as lots of melees.

^ but I've not been able to respond... and I"m busy nowadays

1 hour ago, Seele said:

I think it's fine, being localized to certain weapons. If I like whips but don't like shooting projectiles, I have options; if I like whips and I do like shooting projectiles, there's the Verdilac. If my main objective, for whatever reason, is firing projectiles with my melee weapon, I would opt for a Gunblade or just use Excalibur or Baruuk.

What if you like e.g. Assault saw but want to shoot projectiles? Well now you cannot.

1 hour ago, Seele said:

By making the projectile-firing-melee mechanic a mod (presumably by removing any innate ability from weapons that currently do),

No one says about removing it from melees. We have Amar set, Kullervo, Twin basolk augment that all teleport to enemies. No need to remove anything.

1 hour ago, Seele said:

you must sacrifice mod-based DPS to make room for it, and that's very much working against your premise of ensuring that new projectile-melees don't invalidate old ones, because it would likely invalidate all of them instead.

So without deletion (of shoot mechanic) you would have just option (should I put "shoot X" or more damage or ...). Not the greatest thing but still an option.

1 hour ago, Seele said:

I think the more elegant solution is simply encouraging the developers to explore more creative twists on new melee weapons

I'm just saying that more "shoot melees" is just laziness.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Or instead of adding new mods to do this, add it to objectively worthless garbage like Energy Channel.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Fred_Avant_2019

[quxier]

7 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Or instead of adding new mods to do this, add it to objectively worthless garbage like Energy Channel.

I don't know. I'm still salty about changing amalgam barrel diffusion to have longer rolls (used to be shorter) instead of creating new mod. Sure, Energy channel seems worthless (is it only 200 damage?!) but some mod probably have some niche usages.

[Pakaku]

So you find the idea of projectiles on melee to be boring, yet you want to add a mod so that every melee can shoot projectiles... And isn't the projectile mechanic what makes them unique anyways? If you don't like that, use one of the several other hundred melees. At least a dozen of them already have their own non-projectile mechanics.

[quxier]

9 hours ago, Pakaku said:

So you find the idea of projectiles on melee to be boring

I don't find it boring per se but just slapping average projectile on melee won't make it interesting. Look at Gunblades. You have shotgun like (Redemer), low range big radius plasma type (Stropha) and... ugh... "few pelets per melee attack" (Sarpa... waiting for prime). They are kind of unique.

9 hours ago, Pakaku said:

And isn't the projectile mechanic what makes them unique anyways?

If you have 1 weapon with "projectile on heavy" then it's unique. The more you add the less it feels unique.