Limbo SP viability

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

Limbo can't solo rn.

The problem:

Helminth is required because eximus, but all abilities are required to spread rift status to enemies.

2 candidates:

Banish, Cataclysm (I'm ready to fight in the comments if anyone thinks Rift Surge can be replaced for something other than boss fights)

Banish replaced:

You are giving up ability to rift enemies on demand  with 1 & 3 combo and also 4+3 is not as effective in rifting enemies due to how they work.

1. Huge energy requirements: 100 + 50 for basic rift spreading, +50 if you don't want the bubble. Spamming to get enemies is not possible. Hardly made viable with 160% efficiency paired with limbos KPM.

2. Mission speed: It took me 17 min to complete 5 waves in SP defense because enemies prefer to just sit around the big bubble for some reason with silence helminth (I could use something like airburst but then eximus)

3. Eximus abililtes: You can't run towards an eximus and rift him if it is sitting across the room as spammability is not there with the build due to lack of enegy. Especially problematic in objective defense missions.

Cataclysm replaced:

Giving away ability to guaranteed rift procing acolytes, stalker and such.

1. Acolytes and Stalker: Banish duration on acolyte is around 1-2 sec, and almost instant death outside rift for limbo. No rift implies no rift torrent so you know, helminth has to be CC and damage buff.  And as we know CC only work part time on them, SP missions are almost capped  to 3 acolytes for limbo unless you got a really good slash proc with your glaive prime.

The solution:

Now the solution is a rework but after a lot of helminth resource wasting and dying I came to a conclusion:

Banish and Rift surge buff: Acolytes, Shadow stalker and Demolists are now banished from 'Banish' and 'Rift Surge' radial banish for 10-15 seconds max or the modded duration if it is less than that so that I have the rift surge buff and can finish them quickly.

This could make replacing cataclysm somewhat viable.

I know its a small Band-Aid but most effective for the amount of changes. It might make banish helminth finally useful as a CC.. but then maybe not.

NOTE: The buff is NOT for 'Stasis' ability. Its for 'Banish' and 'Radial Banish' such that they can be send to the rift for 10-15 sec while being UNAFFECTED by 'Stasis'.

...

 

 

[Mazifet]

who dare summons me?! oh, just this joke of a post 💀

Your argument is that Limbo can't do sp solo without helminth because of eximus, let me tell you why this makes you a clown. Firstly, the whole misconception with Limbo and eximus units is entirely wrong. Let me ask you this. Would you rather only be harmed by the occasional eximus ability, which is easily dodgeable, or have to deal with that and the gunfire / abilities of every single enemy that has been spawned in. Eximus are of a lesser threat level to Limbo than other frames because they can only output burst fps with their abilities, rather than sustained DPS with their weapons.

Now, regarding helminth choices, cataclysm is what you should always choose unless you are intending to defend something. Cataclysm has a much smaller range than rift torrent, (16 to 25 meters) and by using the interaction with banish allows you to constantly stay in the rift while banishing a much larger amount of enemies than cataclysm ever will.

Energy isn't an issue either as Limbo gets passive energy generation in the rift, along with TEN energy for every kill in the rift. Energy issues are non existent.

The reason your defense took so long was because of 2 reasons. 1, silence makes enemies really stupid so they don't come to the target as easily, and 2, you yourself need to kill enemies at a decent rate.

Limbo does not need any changes as is, but just better explanation of how to play him.

If you are still concerned about eximus for whatever reason, I recommend helminthing on breach surge, as it helps with dealing damage and also blinds them, making them as harmless as all the other enemies in the game.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

1 hour ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

2. Mission speed: It took me 17 min to complete 5 waves in SP defense because enemies prefer to just sit around the big bubble for some reason with silence helminth 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

31 minutes ago, Mazifet said:

who dare summons me?! oh, just this joke of a post 💀

Your argument is that Limbo can't do sp solo without helminth because of eximus, let me tell you why this makes you a clown. Firstly, the whole misconception with Limbo and eximus units is entirely wrong. Let me ask you this. Would you rather only be harmed by the occasional eximus ability, which is easily dodgeable, or have to deal with that and the gunfire / abilities of every single enemy that has been spawned in. Eximus are of a lesser threat level to Limbo than other frames because they can only output burst fps with their abilities, rather than sustained DPS with their weapons.

Now, regarding helminth choices, cataclysm is what you should always choose unless you are intending to defend something. Cataclysm has a much smaller range than rift torrent, (16 to 25 meters) and by using the interaction with banish allows you to constantly stay in the rift while banishing a much larger amount of enemies than cataclysm ever will.

Energy isn't an issue either as Limbo gets passive energy generation in the rift, along with TEN energy for every kill in the rift. Energy issues are non existent.

The reason your defense took so long was because of 2 reasons. 1, silence makes enemies really stupid so they don't come to the target as easily, and 2, you yourself need to kill enemies at a decent rate.

Limbo does not need any changes as is, but just better explanation of how to play him.

If you are still concerned about eximus for whatever reason, I recommend helminthing on breach surge, as it helps with dealing damage and also blinds them, making them as harmless as all the other enemies in the game.

How about you don't start a debate by calling someone a clown.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

3 hours ago, Mazifet said:

who dare summons me?! oh, just this joke of a post 💀

Your argument is that Limbo can't do sp solo without helminth because of eximus, let me tell you why this makes you a clown. Firstly, the whole misconception with Limbo and eximus units is entirely wrong. Let me ask you this. Would you rather only be harmed by the occasional eximus ability, which is easily dodgeable, or have to deal with that and the gunfire / abilities of every single enemy that has been spawned in. Eximus are of a lesser threat level to Limbo than other frames because they can only output burst fps with their abilities, rather than sustained DPS with their weapons.

Now, regarding helminth choices, cataclysm is what you should always choose unless you are intending to defend something. Cataclysm has a much smaller range than rift torrent, (16 to 25 meters) and by using the interaction with banish allows you to constantly stay in the rift while banishing a much larger amount of enemies than cataclysm ever will.

Energy isn't an issue either as Limbo gets passive energy generation in the rift, along with TEN energy for every kill in the rift. Energy issues are non existent.

The reason your defense took so long was because of 2 reasons. 1, silence makes enemies really stupid so they don't come to the target as easily, and 2, you yourself need to kill enemies at a decent rate.

Limbo does not need any changes as is, but just better explanation of how to play him.

If you are still concerned about eximus for whatever reason, I recommend helminthing on breach surge, as it helps with dealing damage and also blinds them, making them as harmless as all the other enemies in the game.

Now lotta points to cover...

1. Eximus themselves are not a problems but they are not the only problem in SP, its the combination that kills. Say it gets inside the bubble, no problamo, overguard out, eximus out but without cataclysm, firstly only possible mission with a merit for that setup is survival. Also with a cataclysm removed there is no way to kill acolytes without getting out of rift, which mean max 4 sec to kill it or use a helminth cc as effective as stasis. Problem is not kill them but getting them inside rift using cataclysm setup and disabling them so I dont die instantly to say the electric or toxin one because I only have like 300 health.

2. Now the energy thing was for the cataclysm setup; 4+3 + one cc ability for eximus, so around 200 energy for every time want to recast abilities, make that 140 with a streamline, thats around 12 kills between cast with enemies stuck outside the bubble... Now since you don't have banish, an eximus with line of site with you can snipe you with abilities across the room while you are stuck in your bubble no way to get him inside rift and only way is to recast cataclysm and now the energy cost soar.  Breach surge is good but then add 75 energy to the total for every eximus... good for survival i think but not so much for quick casting and limited enemies.

3. Moving on the defense mission. Now it was my bad, limbo is not good with corpus (nullies) and the mission was in the veil proxima so the multi storey setup and me running around with limbo waiting for the energy to refill was not really ideal. I dont know about Silence f'ing enemy AI, maybe that is the case but that only leaves breach surge as a viable option. That means i can't have breach surge in place of cataclysm for another setup. Thats another issue.

4. Now finally, the change said. It is for banish effecting special units- Acolytes, Shadow stalker, Demolists. Not eximus. They are manageable, but add some nuance to that limbo is in trouble.

 

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

For a short summary: 

Problem:

Limbo without helminth: Run from everything that stasis can't stop and hope to successfully deal with all of them one by one (eximus + acolytes) with their full agro.

Without Banish: Outside enemies can't get in rift without 100 energy. 

Without Cataclysm: 3 sec to kill acolytes.

Dealing with just eximus or acolytes is doable, but combined together. They just overwhelm limbo... 

Solution:

Make it possible to radial banish acolytes, stalker and Demolist so that Cataclysm is not a requirement.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

idk, Limbo still hits pretty damn hard when you play him right.

My only beef with him is that Continuous Cataclysm w/e the mod is called, augment for his 4, that one doesn't turn it into a channel with fixed range, which I'd like more than its current functionality, but w/e, there are other tools.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

13 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

idk, Limbo still hits pretty damn hard when you play him right.

My only beef with him is that Continuous Cataclysm w/e the mod is called, augment for his 4, that one doesn't turn it into a channel with fixed range, which I'd like more than its current functionality, but w/e, there are other tools.

He does hit hard. But see it this way.

He has got one thing going on, Hard CC.

And its the only CC in the game that requires priming enemies before they are CCed.

Now what if priming doesn't work. He is essentially sitting duck there with nothing he can do.

He is completely useless in disruption missions rn because of the bubble casting speed, the energy cost and the nullifying aura of the demos. Now if it was possible to banish them, just for 4sec, we can think of something.. this change will not make him OP, just it will just make it so that all enemies can be dealt with at a same plane. Don't change how stasis works, don't change how banish, just give me something to work with.

Can't say much about Cataclysm Continuum, I don't use it. Its really a niche play style tbh, suited for defense or interception mostly, also it can't be used reliably with corpus.

But you know what, it shouldn't be fixed range since then it won't proc that rift surge radial banish for enemies inside bubble and will essentially be just a lockdown mechanic only. Also as a channeled ability it might interfere with that passive energy gain. You could make is such that the bubble moves with you... but I think that's too op.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 4 heures, K1ll8h0t_2454 a dit :

He does hit hard. But see it this way.

He has got one thing going on, Hard CC.

And its the only CC in the game that requires priming enemies before they are CCed.

Now what if priming doesn't work. He is essentially sitting duck there with nothing he can do.

He is completely useless in disruption missions rn because of the bubble casting speed, the energy cost and the nullifying aura of the demos. Now if it was possible to banish them, just for 4sec, we can think of something.. this change will not make him OP, just it will just make it so that all enemies can be dealt with at a same plane. Don't change how stasis works, don't change how banish, just give me something to work with.

Can't say much about Cataclysm Continuum, I don't use it. Its really a niche play style tbh, suited for defense or interception mostly, also it can't be used reliably with corpus.

But you know what, it shouldn't be fixed range since then it won't proc that rift surge radial banish for enemies inside bubble and will essentially be just a lockdown mechanic only. Also as a channeled ability it might interfere with that passive energy gain. You could make is such that the bubble moves with you... but I think that's too op.

Dunno if you did any scarlet spear on release, but Limbo was the godtier frame for it, as you could lock everything indefinitely. That then led to Limbo being nerfed against sentient units, that can shrug off stasis after a while. Nova at the time accomplished something pretty similar with molecular prime, as 75% slow was almost as valuable as stasis, just never nerfed.

 

Now you look at demos these days, and realise gloom just screws them over. So even if Stasis worked like it does on sentients with diminishing duration, it would still perform worse than gloom, which anyone can use. I did end up putting 5 amber shards for casting speed on him, so he feels much better, but it's a huge investment that not many tennos can even think about (I just did it because I like Limbo's theme and felt just rly held back by his casting speed).

 

As for the augment, it's just my delusional ideas kicking in. I can never fit it on a build because Rift Torrent is way more valuable than Cataclysmic Continuum math-wise. The rift pocket doesn't grow back as you gain more duration and a single second up isn't that much, so you might as well just use the 4 again, whereas Rift Torrent means insanely high damage, not much room for choice.

 

Limbo really just stands in a paradox : it's both the strongest burst dmg frame with weapons due to rift torrent while being not so reliable and clunky with results varying alot across factions, his stasis ability is some of the greatest cc there is, but it requires banishing enemies, but it can sometimes be a hindrance to your allies... I just wish Limbo was revisited to be more streamlined and more squad friendly.

[Cerikus]

On 2023-08-01 at 7:15 PM, (PSN)Sentiel said:

This is probably the best meme I've seen in a long long time :D I am stealing it. (sorry, not sorry)

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Dunno if you did any scarlet spear on release, but Limbo was the godtier frame for it, as you could lock everything indefinitely. That then led to Limbo being nerfed against sentient units, that can shrug off stasis after a while. Nova at the time accomplished something pretty similar with molecular prime, as 75% slow was almost as valuable as stasis, just never nerfed.

 

Now you look at demos these days, and realise gloom just screws them over. So even if Stasis worked like it does on sentients with diminishing duration, it would still perform worse than gloom, which anyone can use. I did end up putting 5 amber shards for casting speed on him, so he feels much better, but it's a huge investment that not many tennos can even think about (I just did it because I like Limbo's theme and felt just rly held back by his casting speed).

 

As for the augment, it's just my delusional ideas kicking in. I can never fit it on a build because Rift Torrent is way more valuable than Cataclysmic Continuum math-wise. The rift pocket doesn't grow back as you gain more duration and a single second up isn't that much, so you might as well just use the 4 again, whereas Rift Torrent means insanely high damage, not much room for choice.

 

Limbo really just stands in a paradox : it's both the strongest burst dmg frame with weapons due to rift torrent while being not so reliable and clunky with results varying alot across factions, his stasis ability is some of the greatest cc there is, but it requires banishing enemies, but it can sometimes be a hindrance to your allies... I just wish Limbo was revisited to be more streamlined and more squad friendly.

See I got no problem with stasis as it stands rn. The is CC is absolute, the nerfs are... understandable. Unfair but understandable.

Casting speed boost is like an essential here, I'd have gone for the same. About the demo mission, I don't know if you tried the SP version but that is one tilting experience. Now I don't know how you kept up with those energy requirement with that cataclysmic setup. U basically have to activate all of his abilities before you kill a demo. It's just that even after such effort and going out of the way to make something work, you end up with a mere mediocre build that can easily be outperformed by 25% of other warframes with maybe 1 forma in total investment. Also he is slow... because of the rifting mechanism.

People say that he had got the ultimate ability and he does, but thats all he has and if that one thing doesn't work he might as well be a dummy frame with no abilities. Just you know, let it work, put whatever conditions on it but just keep that functional. That shouldn't be too much to ask.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

By the way, the buff I am talking about is NOT for Stasis. Its for banish and radial banish. Just get acolytes and such inside rift. They can run around freely there as usual and by rift procing I mean getting them inside the rift. Its just easier to understand rift as a status effect thats all.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Le 04/08/2023 à 15:47, K1ll8h0t_2454 a dit :

By the way, the buff I am talking about is NOT for Stasis. Its for banish and radial banish. Just get acolytes and such inside rift. They can run around freely there as usual and by rift procing I mean getting them inside the rift. Its just easier to understand rift as a status effect thats all.

I mean yeah, it is a status effect, though I don't remember if C.O. counts it as such. Key targets such as bosses and all should be rift bindable, but with a few tweaks like being able to receive and deal damage regardless of the rift status. If you want to make Stasis not cry in shame next to Gloom, you could still have those "resilient to rift targets" be just slowed to a certain degree, rather than outright stopped in place. The same could also potentially be applied to overguarded enemy targets so that people see eximus less as some sort of absolute threat (although it was their design philosophy in the first place).

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

Well, its not a status effect technically but it functions like one, but no it doesn't count in CO.

Now with overguard enemies slowed, bosses banished AND taking damage irrespective to rift. That's a rework. That's the optimal solution. I'm saying, till that is implemented, make it functional by just making bosses rift-able for more that 1-2 sec. I mean you need 1-2 sec to dash into the rift and back itself.

[DroopingPuppy]

Well I think that it is fine to let it be - the rant against eximus is fine but Limbo is not the right part of it since he can deal with these with his guns. Even for the higher levels you cannot face so many Eximus at once, after all. You have the guns for a reason.

 

Also although the topic seems about soloplay, but it was very helpful to reducing the numbers of Rimbos on the public missions, which makes the game very, very healthy, for they simply didn't play Limbo for its mechanism is a disaster for the most time unless it's a solo play.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

7 hours ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Well I think that it is fine to let it be - the rant against eximus is fine but Limbo is not the right part of it since he can deal with these with his guns. Even for the higher levels you cannot face so many Eximus at once, after all. You have the guns for a reason.

 

Also although the topic seems about soloplay, but it was very helpful to reducing the numbers of Rimbos on the public missions, which makes the game very, very healthy, for they simply didn't play Limbo for its mechanism is a disaster for the most time unless it's a solo play.

I don't understand why everyone is making it a limbo vs eximus debate.

I already said that Limbo CAN deal with them. He struggle with special bosses, not with eximus. Eximus CAN be banished, their bullet can't hit you in there and their abilities CAN be dealt with with some caution, also with rift torrent, guns reach stupid numbers. But all that goodness only happens inside rift. Once you are outside, I mean the operator has a better chance of surviving.

Also Limbo can be that frame which just makes it such that you can eat popcorn while you wait for the mission to end in public match. Keyword 'can'. Now I'm not ignoring the trolling potential here, that can happen even unintentionally with him. I don't think making a warframe intentionally useless is the route you wanna go if you don't want people to play it.. you can just simply remove it from the game.

His potential is hard to master and beat. I for one am glad that we have a god mode.

Such potential held back by something this silly though, that's frustrating.

[Amolistic.]

You can use magus lockdown and (maybe rolling guard on limbo?) to deal with acos and demos tho, like gloom, you generally dont want gloom and rhino stomp to stun acos since you spend energy doing so, and gloom is a subsume, you could prob get another dmg buff for killing already if you intention is only stopping acos and demos.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

On 2023-08-14 at 3:05 PM, Amolistic. said:

You can use magus lockdown and (maybe rolling guard on limbo?) to deal with acos and demos tho, like gloom, you generally dont want gloom and rhino stomp to stun acos since you spend energy doing so, and gloom is a subsume, you could prob get another dmg buff for killing already if you intention is only stopping acos and demos.

How  to not die after 3 sec?

Without another CC for the normal plane, every enemy is now at your butt. As soon as rolling G expires, u gotta get into the rift. The point of me saying 3 sec to kill acolyte is due to rolling G. Even with another CC eximus abilities now focus on you after 3 sec, and as squishy limbo is, 1 status effect from them is enough to kill him.

Magus lockdown : locks acolytes in one place, doesn't stop their bullets. You will still die after 3 sec.

U solved acolytes, now solve survivability outside rift.

 

[Raarsi]

I've always felt like the only real issue with him is in group stuff when he makes your dps magically disappear because you keep trying to hit banished enemies when you're not.  While I'm sure a good Limbo player would know how to work away from that, such players to me have seemed few and far between.

Honestly, the only adjustment I'd want to see on Limbo is changing Banish so that it's just a debuff that increases the enemy target's damage taken from Limbo and reduces the target's damage dealt to Limbo, and if it's on an ally, it increases their damage dealt and reduces damage taken by enemies with that debuff.  Other abilities like Cataclysm would apply these effects natively.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

2 hours ago, Raarsi said:

I've always felt like the only real issue with him is in group stuff when he makes your dps magically disappear because you keep trying to hit banished enemies when you're not.  While I'm sure a good Limbo player would know how to work away from that, such players to me have seemed few and far between.

Honestly, the only adjustment I'd want to see on Limbo is changing Banish so that it's just a debuff that increases the enemy target's damage taken from Limbo and reduces the target's damage dealt to Limbo, and if it's on an ally, it increases their damage dealt and reduces damage taken by enemies with that debuff.  Other abilities like Cataclysm would apply these effects natively.

My dude, you just proposed to remove the Rift from the game. Anyway...

The key to playing limbo in public match is let go of the wish to do damage, unless every player is struggling, in that case you can take the reins from everyone and go ham. If you still wish for the damage, as a limbo, take an area where you are going to do your shenanigans and leave everything else to other team players, like playing solo in a public match, contributing separately.

Mostly limbo will be doing other tasks like locking down a doorway for a special farm setup, or protecting the defense operative/objective, or protecting excavators, banishing loki for those spy missions or mesa for exterminate etc etc...

[Raarsi]

7 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

My dude, you just proposed to remove the Rift from the game.

And?  It'd solve the issue most people have with Limbo in group content, plus it'd finally make Limbo useful against eximus mobs instead of a liability, so I don't exactly see the problem there.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

3 hours ago, Raarsi said:

And?  It'd solve the issue most people have with Limbo in group content, plus it'd finally make Limbo useful against eximus mobs instead of a liability, so I don't exactly see the problem there.

Dude really?

He can't be team friendly because his fundamentals clash with the core idea of teamplay (except in some niche setups with specific roles).  Just play him with his strengths, not limitations.

Banish and Cataclysm are the two methods get enemy into the rift. If you replace them with a buff; limbo's 2nd and 3rd abilities will become useless as they work on enemies inside the rift. Now you have to change all of his abilities. You are talking about replacing limbo with some public friendly frame, not a rework.

 

 

[Raarsi]

6 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

Banish and Cataclysm are the two methods get enemy into the rift. If you replace them with a buff; limbo's 2nd and 3rd abilities will become useless as they work on enemies inside the rift. Now you have to change all of his abilities. You are talking about replacing limbo with some public friendly frame, not a rework.

Again, and?  Just tweak his 2 and 3 so they do additional damage to enemies with the debuff, problem solved.

It'd be tweaking him so that his limitations become strengths for both himself and others.  I don't see what's wrong with that.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

4 hours ago, Raarsi said:

Again, and?  Just tweak his 2 and 3 so they do additional damage to enemies with the debuff, problem solved.

It'd be tweaking him so that his limitations become strengths for both himself and others.  I don't see what's wrong with that.

1. Remove Rift from the game.

2. Change the quest for the warframe.

3. Change the warframe to match 50% of other warframes.

U really hate him, don't you?

Now I don't know how he hurt you that much but he is a unique one, let him be what he is. He offers a playstyle no other warframe offers. There are ways to make him work than outright removing him.

His limitations are his strength, he just ain't your regular killer.

He is just in a 'too much nerfed' range rn, just need a little revisit. Other than that, there is no need to make him another saryn.

[Raarsi]

11 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

1. Remove Rift from the game.

2. Change the quest for the warframe.

3. Change the warframe to match 50% of other warframes.

U really hate him, don't you?

1. Believe it or not, changing just Banish and Cataclysm still wouldn't remove the Rift from the game.  His passive doesn't really provide any problematic consequences for other players like Banish or Cataclysm can, so there's not really any reason to change that.

2. It wouldn't really change the questline since all it boiled down to was that Limbo had a theory that backfired.  On top of that, if the passive was still intact, then your claim here falls apart.

3. I see frames like Hydroid and Inaros and see that falling more in-line with more modern frames really wouldn't be the worst thing for him.  He'd be more party-friendly, what's so wrong with that?

Don't get me wrong, I do like Limbo.  He has a neat aesthetic, but I'm fully aware that he has a glaring problem of easily becoming a glaring problem for others in a party that could be changed in a way that could make him more beneficial to parties in a more universally straightforward way for all players, new and old.