Gunblades need their stances looked at.

[quxier]

9 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Hydroid is still Hydroid.
I'm going to be blunt, you're still going to use him the exact same way as before.

So... how do I use my Kullervo's teleport while being under "water"? Duh, I cannot.

10 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

The use cases where each of his powers work are the still the same.

You have forgotten about Passive.

11 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

21 hours ago, quxier said:

It's last time if you are going with same stupid argument of "change my stance instead of introducing new mod/stance"

You're being selfish. I don't see any other reason you'd be insistent on that

As someone who has been using Spearguns for what-is-practically years now?
I don't care if they change them, when Veilbreaker happened? They were still useful to me and still are.
But mainly because if I begged for them to NEVER CHANGE? Nothing cool would out of them.

Change is how things move forward.
Adapt your playstyle or get left behind.
^{I know it's a lot of Warframe players, but for gods sakes-- EVEN CHILDREN ARE CAPABLE OF THIS.}

*facepalm* I'm not being selfish. I'm not against any of your suggestions if they don't modify current playstyles(stance). I don't know how I'm being selfish If I allow you to have your fun JUST WITH OTHER STANCE/MOD. Simple as this.

Unless you have another topic related to gunblades (not whenever or not we should change current stances) then we can talk. Otherwise I've said everything.

18 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

ullervo's Wrathful Advance COMMONLY misses after it's change with Projectile-Melees.

• I didn't have this issue before, because I'd manually fix my aim to that direction.
• I know it was because of players on controllers, but it should HIT in that case. Not mildly miss the target.
• At this point, it's just a nerf for PC players and a moot point for Console players. It serves no role but detriments.

 

If your miss your shots with "projectile melees" (e.g. Corufell) then it's a bug. They were supposed to fix that (afair, camera aims at enemy) but maybe some combination is still there (that causes missing shots). I'm on PC and I've not seen this (missing shots). YMMV

[Binket_]

On 2023-10-28 at 2:35 AM, quxier said:

So... how do I use my Kullervo's teleport while being under "water"? Duh, I cannot.

As someone who tried that before? It was INCREDIBLY clunky.
Borderline unusable half the time, the other half you were better off doing anything else.

On 2023-10-28 at 2:35 AM, quxier said:

You have forgotten about Passive.

What passive? The lashing tentacle on a slam attack?
I'll be real here, unless you were reminded of it every 2 seconds? Nobody would bother with that.

Especially since you could only have so many out at a given time and they did very little damage.
... and that's if it worked as intended.

On 2023-10-28 at 2:35 AM, quxier said:

I'm not against any of your suggestions if they don't modify current playstyles(stance).

Question: How DO you play anyway?
Given the way you've spoke so far, ya sound like someone who would rather play Warframe 1.0 than any other version.

I'm looking at this from a very practical point of view. I don't think it matters if one (or both) of the stances are modified to a VERY large portion of the playerbase.
No, I'm not going to pretend that you (and you alone) are the sole reason that it'll happen.

It if does happen anyway? Good for you, round of applause. A cookie for your troubles and a nightlight to keep the dark at bay, yadda yadda yadda.
I don't see it happening regardless though, this is because DE is a complicated eldritch mass of half-baked logic and I have to implement SOMETHING in there to make it translate in a Yog'slvrian native tongue... or whatever the cosmic cloud decides that their universal language is this time.

TLDR: "That'd be nice, but this is DE we're requesting to. We don't get nice things."

 

[quxier]

19 hours ago, Binket_ said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

So... how do I use my Kullervo's teleport while being under "water"? Duh, I cannot.

As someone who tried that before? It was INCREDIBLY clunky.
Borderline unusable half the time, the other half you were better off doing anything else.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

You have forgotten about Passive.

What passive? The lashing tentacle on a slam attack?
I'll be real here, unless you were reminded of it every 2 seconds? Nobody would bother with that.

Especially since you could only have so many out at a given time and they did very little damage.
... and that's if it worked as intended.

Clunky lot of the time? Sure. However it's mostly Kullervo's fault.

The point was that it was possible not how clunky it was.

20 hours ago, Binket_ said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm not against any of your suggestions if they don't modify current playstyles(stance).

Question: How DO you play anyway?

It's more complicated than "how do I play" because not everything is possible (or is clunky). So I will mix it with "how do i WANT TO play".

When I play with gunblades I try to use mostly "distant" part (gun part, and Bullet dance stance). Like... I don't want to "touch" (being few cm close to them) enemies to damage them. "Walking" and "standing" combo is reversed (and maybe bad in some parts) so I rarely use them.

To move forward (and attack) I'm using block+moving combo. It jumps to enemy so it's not always ideal. Sometimes I slide.

To damage enemies I use 1st combo (I think both standing & moving 1st's combos are ok.). Sometimes Heavy.

Sometimes I'm using block combo if I don't want to move forward nor standing. It's pretty nice for Nullies or group of enemies (especially with Void proc).

 

How I wish to play (except above)?

When I stand (standing combo) I should just shoot what's in front of me without moving.

When I move (moving combo) I should move (with frame's walk/sprint speed - no faster or slower)

 

That's the gist of it. As you can see it's "bullet dance".

21 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Given the way you've spoke so far, ya sound like someone who would rather play Warframe 1.0 than any other version.

Maybe. I've not played WF at that time. Parkour seemed to be more challenging but slower.

I like parkour & melee combat games like Mirror's edge, Prince trylogy + 2008 (afair) etc. Warframe is not like that but I want some consistency like Bullet dance should be dance... with bullets.

[Binket_]

Putting more onto this post since I'd realistically be going over all of this again if I just made a new one. It's easier this way.

 

So uhhh... that Tennokai over there, looking real flashy right?

I was busy browsing the Internet- _{what I do when I just can't bring myself to play the mockery that is this game's current state}- and I found a video on a game I played.
Pretty sure I mentioned it here. "Phantasy Star Online 2".

In there, they had a unique class called "Luster".
It focused on a weapon that could be used all classes as a "backup weapon" and generally was mocked for being "useless", "terrible", etc, etc.
Of course, many of this was from casuals-- but there was some logic behind that.
However... Luster took the weapon, reformed it's entire premise into one GLORIOUS whole.

It took that duality of "Melee" and "Ranged", combined it with a bit of [GENERIC VIDEO GAME MAGIC SYSTEM] and expanded it's mechanics vastly by just... letting the player evolve it's playstyle with their own choices. By each attack flowed into the next, each action with different effects and strengths depending on how you used it.

Cue footage.

Okay, that's posted now.
Back to the explanation.

 

Warframe can EASILY accomplish what Luster did right.
It's not even a matter of "reworking" the engine or adding some fancy new mechanic.

You wanna know what it takes to get a Gunblade this good?
Update. The. Stances.

Literally all you need!
We already have the fast-paced movement.
We already have the excessive mechanics in the form of abilities across 56 (and counting) Warframes.
We already have ways to boost that even further with weapons like the Tenet Plinx, Tenet Ferrox, 

Now, I'm not saying Warframe has to be this exact damn thing.
I fully get how much overhaul the engine would need to make that a reality and... having played the game? Not needed.
... but you can admit, it looks REALLY FUN from that footage right?

What if I told you it's not even the editing. That can be done ALL ingame. Quite easily no less.
It's a game that excels in the oh-so-described """Power Fantasy""" Warframe fails to be at in every capacity.

 

At least, it was.
Unfortunately, the update of "New Genesis" was on par with Railjack with how bad it was.
... and still is. They're currently using the game as a cheap source of cash from the Gacha and turning it into a rather shoddy VRChat clone.

I can see Warframe going down a similar path with how much they're trying to dumb down the game for Mobile.
You don't need to make a game dumbed down into oblivion for it to be good. You don't need increasingly difficult bosses.

What you need is a good gameplay loop. One that doesn't make players want to idle for random shiny bits.
Players need to engage, otherwise "Why bother?"

 

 

Also, make Auto-Melee a toggle.
This isn't relevant to the post, it's just stupid that it wasn't one to begin and would take you guys even less time than this.
Would solve a lot of bugs too. Mainly by giving us means to avoid them.

[Kainosh]

DE should just remove shots from melee combos.   You melee with light attack, and you shoot with heavy attack.    Same with Slams.  You slam with light, and you shoot from the air with heavy.

Using Tennokai will let you shoot fast during melee combos with no combo cost.    

 

There is only one thing....Tennokai should not "interrupt" combo.    It should be possible to Start combo>Tennokai>finish combo.

[Nalabac]

Late to the party, but I was just thinking about this today. Honestly, I've been periodically thinking about it ever since Melee 3.0. The Redeemer Prime used to be one of my favorite weapons, not it just feels unintuitive to use.

I agree with the originally presented idea; melee swings on regular combos, gunshots on [RMB] combos. Here's my reasoning; think of how DE originally presented the idea of what role each of the combos was supposed to play under the Melee 3.0 system:

 - [E] - Standard combo: this is supposed to be your weapon's most basic string of attacks, designed with the intention of hitting enemies that are right in front of you.

 - [E] + Forward - Advancing combo: designed to close the distance between you and the target, chase fleeing targets, or just perform melee attacks on the move.

 - [E] + [RMB] - "Tactical" Combo: your "special moves". Knockbacks, trips, forced lifts, forced status procs, etc.

 - [E] + [RMB] + Forward: Moving "Tactical" Combo: similar to above, but with more movement involved. This is where all of your leaping slams and thrusts and cartwheels should be.

Let's use High Noon as an example. All of your combos except for Tomahawk Double-Tap start with a gunshot, including Final Showdown. Final Showdown is meant to be your basic combo, which means just pressing [E], your most basic attack in your entire moveset, is a gunshot. So, if you run up to an enemy, or an enemy runs up to you, and all you want to do is reach out and smack them, you have to make the conscious decision to press a combination of buttons in order to do so. If you just reflexively hit [E] instead, your character will attempt to shoot them.

To me, this feels unintuitive. Your most basic attack in your arsenal should not be a "special attack". It kinda feels like that short period of time immediately following the release of Melee 3.0 where on Wise Razor, your "basic attack" was the damn aerial twirling slash that carried you forward several meters. You know. "Basic".

Generally, Bullet Dance is no better in this regard.

So, as far as the proposed idea is concerned, think of it like this; [RMB] inputs for gunshots, as that is that same key/button that you would normal press to aim down sight with your guns. If you're not holding [RMB], then you won't shoot, because you're not aiming.

Additionally if the idea of the gunblade weapons in to alternate between slashes and gunshots (for style purposes), that fine. But if you're going to do that, again, just make them intuitive to use. [E] combos could start with melee strikes, and would be/should be mostly melee strikes, and vice versa for [RMB] combos. For example, if you wanted to pepper a gunshot or two into one of the [E] combos, or punctuate it with a gunshot at the end, that would be alright.

As an example, Vagabond Blitz on High Noon already does this. I mean hell, Vagabond Blitz would be a perfect gunblade combo if it weren't for the gunshot at the beginning of the combo as well*. It just makes it feel wacky.

*In my own personal opinion.

Edited July 11 by Nalabac
Fixed a typo to clarify context