Khora's whip claw Quality of life fix please!!!

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

please make her whipclaw ignore allies. allies all seem to have very big whipclaw hitboxes including Kavats like Venari.

kavats specifically since i am using Venari/Smeeta, have like human sized hitboxes for whipclaw, making you constantly accidentally hit them.

its not just that allies block it, allies seem to act like walls for LoS. making it where a ally that goes melee can easily unintentionally constantly block your whip claws's damage.

 

pleeeeeaaase let whip claw ignore allies as a collision object.

other than that Khora is great. just the constant whipclaw blockage is driving me crazy.

[PollexMessier]

Everything in the game that doesn't affect allies should not collide with them. This was a huge reason why self damage was removed, because it was insufferably easy for a teamate or your own pet to decide to jump in front of you the moment you pulled the trigger. Aaaand guess what that's still an issue with knockback, just instead of dying instantly you get knocked on your back. I still frequently run into issues where I'll do something like throw out a projectile ability in a situation where energy is scarce, a damage stacking projectile ability like Antimatter drop or Dread Mirror, a projectile from a mele heavy attack at a high combo, the bouncing grenade form traumna, ext. and whoops an ally jumped in front of it and it's wasted. Fantastic game design.

Edited August 23, 2023 by PollexMessier

[RLanzinger]

If your team mates just block your line of sight, they should just get hit and DIE !

But as it is a game, the are immune to Friendly-Fire because most players can't disciplined themselves.

If you want your shots / attacks / ability to ignore them JUST play SOLO and give attack order to Venari.

About Whipclaw uses, tips & tricks, and fixes :

1. Khora's Whipclaw line of sight was already booster numerous times
2. .... and now even scale with the mods on your melee weapon as well as your current melee combo.
3. Did you aim mindlessly the targets or wisely aim for the ground ?

I asked these because claiming problems with body collision mean you aim in front of you instead aiming for the ground which clearly mean you did not use the ability correctly from the start...

[sunderthefirmament]

18 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

If your team mates just block your line of sight, they should just get hit and DIE !

But as it is a game, the are immune to Friendly-Fire because most players can't disciplined themselves.

If you want your shots / attacks / ability to ignore them JUST play SOLO and give attack order to Venari.

About Whipclaw uses, tips & tricks, and fixes :

1. Khora's Whipclaw line of sight was already booster numerous times
2. .... and now even scale with the mods on your melee weapon as well as your current melee combo.
3. Did you aim mindlessly the targets or wisely aim for the ground ?

I asked these because claiming problems with body collision mean you aim in front of you instead aiming for the ground which clearly mean you did not use the ability correctly from the start...

Why are you opposed to fixes like this?  Whipclaw used to be an insane damage dealer, but the line of sight check brought it back down to earth.  It can still do significant damage, but using it is like rolling dice.  You never know if it's actually going to hit what you want because DE has a lot of trouble coding line of sight checks.  The OP's suggestion would help fix some of that uncertainty.

 

And "just play solo" isn't a great suggestion here.  The OP mentioned how their own companions were getting in the way too.  Should players be expected to use a sentinel and Helminth away Venari in order to fully use Khora's kit?

[RLanzinger]

16 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

... an insane damage dealer...

Oh yeah, You speak about when the fixed the BUGS :

1. that cause "Accumulating Whipclaw buff stacking indefinitely" ?
2. and the one with "The Xoris’ infinite Combo" which amplifies unintentional the Damage of some abilities

So you ask to reverse the OP bugs.

Nope, I prefer the saltiness of a hard work of the sweetness of cake-walk-bugged-OP-abilities

Edited August 23, 2023 by RLanzinger
MORE COLORS XD

[sunderthefirmament]

4 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

So you ask to reverse the OP bugs.

That's not at all what I said.  I didn't say anything about infinitely stacking whipclaw or the xoris' combo pause.  I said that I would be in favor of the OP's suggestion about making whipclaw pass through allies.  It's a wildly inconsistent ability right now, and the OP's suggestion would help make it a bit more reliable.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I don't like casting an ability and not knowing whether it's going to work or not.  It feels bad, and it's one of the two biggest reasons that I don't play a lot of Khora these days.  The other reason is that she uses a statstick and statsticks are clunky, gross, and outdated.  But I digress.

[RLanzinger]

So can you tell me :

• Why she was able to do a lot of damage and now she can't ?
• Why giving her a punch through ability to bypass the need to aim at the ground ? It's like playing solo, her ability ignore most of terrain already.

 

[PollexMessier]

1 hour ago, RLanzinger said:

So can you tell me :

• Why she was able to do a lot of damage and now she can't ?

I was never able to do good damage with her because whipclaw is a god damn stat-stick ability and I absolutely HATE that mechanic.
Soooo maybe instead of outright nerfing her they should've removed the stat stick aspect from the ability and just made it do scaling damage.... Like they should do for every single thing in the game that uses stat stick garbage.

Would make balancing these abilities WAY easier for DE and remove the power gap between players that: care to understand how stat sticking works, don't care about having a good mele weapon, and can get a god roll stat stick riven... and everyone else.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

6 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

So can you tell me :

• Why she was able to do a lot of damage and now she can't ?
• Why giving her a punch through ability to bypass the need to aim at the ground ? It's like playing solo, her ability ignore most of terrain already.

 

her ability doesnt ignore terrain though?? it literally has LoS and can easily get stuck on random objects. my main issue is that you can literally have your kavats constantly body blocking you even if you try to aim at the ground.

do you even play khora??? the pets literally love jumping directly in front of you with a hitbox the size of a player.

Edited August 24, 2023 by (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika
added picture

[RLanzinger]

To @(NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika,

I did play Khora from times to times but with different/weird tactics :

• I hate using the Whip's spams because it's boring and tiring (Keyboard Player)
• I mainly command Venari most of times (for support or attack) so she never get in my way
• I use ensnare and strangedome before whip and mainly in defense (Frost main habit :p)
• When using Accu-whip build, I switch Mouse_Wheel_UP from shot to Ability1, this way I can do acrobatic and use Whipclaw (thus aiming the ground, whitout being impede by others).

Generally speaking, Whipclaw is good first ability but it's not the an ultimate... it may be Khora main attack one but she is not a damage dealer type; If you want her trying to equal or best Excalibur's excalted blade, you're in the wrong...

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

1 hour ago, RLanzinger said:

To @(NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika,

Generally speaking, Whipclaw is good first ability but it's not the an ultimate... it may be Khora main attack one but she is not a damage dealer type; If you want her trying to equal or best Excalibur's excalted blade, you're in the wrong...

100% disagree, she can very easily out damage excalibur with a good statstick. i 100% get why people dislike stat sticks. but literally just run Rauta and a rivened well modded statstick and she can easily do very well in high level steel path thanks to it. mod: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Accumulating_Whipclaw  acting like a strength mod for her claw (upto 350%). i also can 1000% back this up because i have been mainly playing her in steel path with THIS BUILD:

like, reading your posts tells me you really dont know much about khora. for example, her first ability is bad damage wise unless you use a stat stick modded for it. if you actually used a well modded stat stick with your khora, there would be 0 reason for you to say that khora isnt a good damage dealer.

also khora shouldnt have to be played like Zephyr in order to functionally use her 1st ability.

 

 she is 100% a damage dealing warframe. her Strangledome and Ensnare literally amplify damage to enemies in them and  hitting a enemy with whipclaw who is strangled by the dome hits everyone else in the dome.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Ensnare

• "Ability Synergy: Ensnared enemies receive 200% damage from  Whipclaw and Venari. Additionally, ensnared enemies hit by Whipclaw will propagate again to pull in new enemies.
  • Whipclaw propagation refresh is considered as a new instance of Ensnare, therefore it will affect enemies freed from a previous cast."

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Strangledome

"While captured, enemies are strangled by the chains taking 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 damage per second and receive 200% damage from weapons and abilities. "

one last thing:

1 hour ago, RLanzinger said:

To @(NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika,

I did play Khora from times to times but with different/weird tactics :

• I hate using the Whip's spams because it's boring and tiring (Keyboard Player)

then why are you commenting against Quality of Life stuff for it? "i hate using whip claw, but i dont want it to be made better for other people who do like using whip claw" is basically what your saying.

 

TLDR: i think you dont use a statstick due to you saying "... it may be Khora main attack one but she is not a damage dealer type; If you want her trying to equal or best Excalibur's excalted blade, you're in the wrong..."and khora first ability is mediocre unless you use a stat stick, then it becomes a fantastic ability.

i also have 0 clue on why your commenting against QoL for the ability when you yourself say "I hate using the Whip's spams because it's boring and tiring (Keyboard Player)". 

Edit: also should bring this up about Exalted blade and Serene Storm, because these 2 abilities ignore obstacles.
Serene Storm:

"Normal attacks will emit a wind wave in the direction of aim that travel 20 meters. Wind waves have the same base damage as the melee attacks that release them.

• The wind waves and Serene Storm itself are considered separate entities and will both deal damage separately.
• Wind waves will Punch Through and hit enemies and terrain regardless of thickness up to their maximum range.
• Wave damage does not fall off with distance.
• Wave range and flight speed are not affected by mods.
• Enemies hit by the waves will suffer a stagger.
• Enemy projectiles hit by the waves have a 100% chance to be redirected toward their originating direction."

Exalted Blade:

• "Energy waves will punch through and hit enemies and terrain regardless of thickness up to their maximum range.
• Energy wave lifetime decreases 0.5s (7.5m) for every enemy hit from the max lifetime of 2.5s (37.5m).
• Wave damage falls off linearly with distance from 100% to 85% between 0 and 6.5m and 28% to 0% between 6.5m and 37.5m.
• Wave range, damage fall off, and flight speed are not affected by mods.
• Enemies hit by the waves will suffer a stagger."

Huh, both of these ignore all terrain, so if these are sooo much stronger in your opinion, why  can these ignore terrain but whipclaw cant? (i wasnt even arguing for this funny enough. i was only asking for it to ignore ALLIES).

Edited August 24, 2023 by (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika
added info about exalted blade and Serene Storm

[sunderthefirmament]

4 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

Generally speaking, Whipclaw is good first ability but it's not the an ultimate... it may be Khora main attack one but she is not a damage dealer type; If you want her trying to equal or best Excalibur's excalted blade, you're in the wrong...

This is so profoundly divorced from reality that it's putting the rest of your frankly bizarre responses in clearer perspective.  While Whipclaw is not an ultimate in the sense that it's not her 4th ability, it easily carries her kit and is her largest source of relevance in most content.  The same could be said for Atlas.  Sure, Rumblers are his 4th ability.  But they do basically nothing, and the only real reason to take Atlas at all, ever, is to use his 1st ability.

 

I think it's cool that the frames in this game are complex enough (and the modding system deep enough) to allow numerous effective builds for any given frame.  It's cool that you play Khora in a nontraditional way, and have found parts of her kit that many people replace (Venari) worthwhile to build around.  What's decidedly less cool is when someone who plays a lot of Khora shows up on the forums with a QOL request, and you shoot their suggestions down with responses that are as unhelpful as saying "skill issue" and moving on.

[RLanzinger]

First of all, I won't compare Whipclaw with Exca ultimate, it's barely mean to be a slash dash like (block by terrain); And the combo with others Khora's abilities is not hinder by this disconfort; Lastly, copy-paste half of the wiki -without removing the formating 😒- won't make you argument any better.

 

There is some minor discomfort but WhipClaw's already have a huge AoE and tons of fixes.

• What I am against is that THIS SOLUTION -Completely ignore allies- is Like Exca Infinite Punch-through, that will just create another Infinite Ammo-AoE weapon.
• What I ask first is DID you already use all possibility ? No answer

What most did not understand is : I effectively state that I did not like Whip Spams because

• First, it was tiring but I did found myself a solution by linking 1 ability to Wheel-Mouse-UP. This get me a more acrobatic Khora solving the Line-of-sight problems altogether.
• Second, I get bored of it and no rarely use this build but still keep the acrobatic play and using command to avoid. (which is one solution)

I'll keep as [DE] comment "No longer will small rocks or detailed floor geometry block Whipclaw’s explosion! Enemies that hide behind cover will not be hit by Whipclaw if you hit the front of the object that enemies are hunkering down behind. However, if you strategically hit beside them, you will vanquish your foes."

So is the real problem : WhipClaw mechanic ? or the allies that come in your Line-of-sigh or Your personal refusal to adapt and change ?

I did propose you to change for a more acrobatic : you (collectively) don't care

I did ask why was see an insane dealer with her first ability : Nobody could answer me

I did make a remark that her using her first only is enough and does not need boost.

 

Globally, I try to understand but have no real answer, I try to propose immediate solution no care about it. The only thing you said is the ability is at fault not me, not the players that cut your L.o.Sight. I you are so Adamant about ignoring anything outside your your Point of view, I don't think [DE]'s tech and dev could help you at all.

Add a bit of water in your wine, accept to think about OTHERS solutions with and beside the one your are so fond off and I may support your ideas. Actually, I'm against this one because it will cause more problems that it can solve ! 100% sure

 

PS : Sorry for this long development but I wish to be as crystal-clear as possible 😁🧐

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, RLanzinger said:

So is the real problem : WhipClaw mechanic ? or the allies that come in your Line-of-sigh or Your personal refusal to adapt and change ?

The real problem is that Whipclaw's line of sight checks are still really unreliable and poorly coded.  The ability feels awful to use.  I don't see DE reverting it to its pre-LoS nerf state, so I think the OP's suggestion of removing collision detection on allies is a small, realistic step forward for Whipclaw.

 

I will agree with you that relying on Whipclaw results in a really boring frame to play.  My personal hope is that DE changes all statstick frames into pure exalteds, along with buffs/nerfs as needed to keep the abilities relevant in modern day Warframe.  Khora's optimal gameplay loop of spamming 1 on repeat should be changed, but adding a LoS check to Whipclaw didn't have that effect.

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2023-08-25 at 9:10 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

On 2023-08-25 at 8:06 AM, RLanzinger said:

So is the real problem : WhipClaw mechanic ? or the allies that come in your Line-of-sigh or Your personal refusal to adapt and change ?

The real problem is that Whipclaw's line of sight checks are still really unreliable and poorly coded.  The ability feels awful to use.  I don't see DE reverting it to its pre-LoS nerf state, so I think the OP's suggestion of removing collision detection on allies is a small, realistic step forward for Whipclaw.

Adapting to Nerfs by using a different warframe, ability or weapon

Then shade which gets buffed and is now immediately better than loki

Yeah that "adapting" is called interest and the meta outperforms on interest

I'll just "adapt and change" whipclaw into chains or pillage

Then again refusing to learn, adapt or change the arguement, i got the hypercrite part right

I don't want to "adapt and change" to a pile of clone goo let alone Decoy

Edited August 26, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89

[vixenpixel]

On 2023-08-23 at 2:21 PM, sunderthefirmament said:

Why are you opposed to fixes like this?  Whipclaw used to be an insane damage dealer, but the line of sight check brought it back down to earth.  It can still do significant damage, but using it is like rolling dice.  You never know if it's actually going to hit what you want because DE has a lot of trouble coding line of sight checks.  The OP's suggestion would help fix some of that uncertainty.

 

And "just play solo" isn't a great suggestion here.  The OP mentioned how their own companions were getting in the way too.  Should players be expected to use a sentinel and Helminth away Venari in order to fully use Khora's kit?

You can't helminth cat away, if you over-write the 3rd you just cant order venari to do stuff. It's still going to block your whipclaw.

On 2023-08-25 at 1:10 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

I will agree with you that relying on Whipclaw results in a really boring frame to play.  My personal hope is that DE changes all statstick frames into pure exalteds, along with buffs/nerfs as needed to keep the abilities relevant in modern day Warframe.  Khora's optimal gameplay loop of spamming 1 on repeat should be changed, but adding a LoS check to Whipclaw didn't have that effect.

Statisticks adds a fun level of depth to the game. Terrible idea.

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2023-08-26 at 1:36 AM, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

Then shade which gets buffed and is now immediately better than loki

What are you even talking about?  Shade is unreliable garbage.  Loki, while a bit outdated, still has solid CC, stealth (which is OP in this game), and the ability to speed up the most torturous bounties in the game (drone escort).  That's priceless.

 

On 2023-08-26 at 5:39 AM, vixenpixel said:

Statisticks adds a fun level of depth to the game. Terrible idea.

I don't find it enjoyable to have a gimped melee just so I can see bigger numbers when I spam the same animation/audio FX 1 button on repeat.  I don't find it enjoyable constantly cross-referencing old threads and reddit posts to try to figure out which mods actually work and which ones don't.  I don't find it enjoyable trying to throw together a statstick from whatever the Circuit offers me, so Khora, Atlas, and Gara are just dead rolls there.

 

We're getting far afield though.  I want bigger changes to Khora and frames like her.  In the meantime, I'll accept and welcome smaller updates like what the OP suggests.

Edited August 27, 2023 by sunderthefirmament

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2023-08-26 at 9:22 PM, sunderthefirmament said:

What are you even talking about?  Shade is unreliable garbage.  Loki, while a bit outdated, still has solid CC, stealth (which is OP in this game), and the ability to speed up the most torturous bounties in the game (drone escort).  That's priceless.

 

I don't find it enjoyable to have a gimped melee just so I can see bigger numbers when I spam the same animation/audio FX 1 button on repeat.  I don't find it enjoyable constantly cross-referencing old threads and reddit posts to try to figure out which mods actually work and which ones don't.  I don't find it enjoyable trying to throw together a statstick from whatever the Circuit offers me, so Khora, Atlas, and Gara are just dead rolls there.

 

We're getting far afield though.  I want bigger changes to Khora and frames like her.  In the meantime, I'll accept and welcome smaller updates like what the OP suggests.

One moment i was replying more to

On 2023-08-25 at 8:06 AM, RLanzinger said:

So is the real problem : WhipClaw mechanic ? or the allies that come in your Line-of-sigh or Your personal refusal to adapt and change ?

But they didn't show up

[vixenpixel]

On 2023-08-26 at 1:22 PM, sunderthefirmament said:

I don't find it enjoyable to have a gimped melee just so I can see bigger numbers when I spam the same animation/audio FX 1 button on repeat.  I don't find it enjoyable constantly cross-referencing old threads and reddit posts to try to figure out which mods actually work and which ones don't.  I don't find it enjoyable trying to throw together a statstick from whatever the Circuit offers me, so Khora, Atlas, and Gara are just dead rolls there.

I agree on the last point. It's super inconvenient. The other stuff you don't find enjoyable seems a little ignorant. The bigger numbers are important because the consistent damage is needed for the ability to be effective. Do you not do steel path content? Regardless, you only need to learn it once and set up your statistick to learn how it works so unless you have the memory of goldfish I don't see how you can possibly need to constantly cross-reference old threads and reddit posts. Especially since there's a perfectly good wiki available that tells you exactly everything you need to know about how to mod khora's statstick. More people need to bookmark that wiki. Additionally, making it just another exalted weapon will make it way worse, probably unusable in the meta. No blood rush on khora would cripple her whipclaw.

[sunderthefirmament]

5 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

I agree on the last point. It's super inconvenient. The other stuff you don't find enjoyable seems a little ignorant. The bigger numbers are important because the consistent damage is needed for the ability to be effective. Do you not do steel path content? Regardless, you only need to learn it once and set up your statistick to learn how it works so unless you have the memory of goldfish I don't see how you can possibly need to constantly cross-reference old threads and reddit posts. Especially since there's a perfectly good wiki available that tells you exactly everything you need to know about how to mod khora's statstick. More people need to bookmark that wiki. Additionally, making it just another exalted weapon will make it way worse, probably unusable in the meta. No blood rush on khora would cripple her whipclaw.

The reason I need to look it up all the time is that every year or so I try out a statstick frame again, just to see if I like them. I set up a statstick, either making a new build or seeing what I tried to cobble together last time. I make a bit of progress, test it out, and invariably find it loathsome to play. Khora’s not fun because it’s just 1, 1, 1 and it gets really stale. Atlas has a bit more variety in animations, but the rest of his kit is just sooooo bad. And Gara has a fiddly, unfun kit that manages to somehow channel FOMO into her abilities. Just a terrible experience over all. 
 

I’ve never committed the statstick rules (and their variations for these three frames) to memory because I find it abhorrent and don’t interact with the system enough to force it to stick. 
 

I almost exclusively play steel path, so I get the importance for bigger numbers. I just think statsticks are a gross way to get there. Trade a third of your available weapons so you can spam 1 ability more effectively, essentially.  I would rather just play another frame. 
 

I want full reworks for all statstick frames, along with exalted weapon/ability replacements. I don’t think DE needs to keep the “no acolyte mods” rule for exalteds anymore. Maybe for Baruuk?  

[vixenpixel]

Thanks for your reply to my response. That was informative and you didn't even let my, in hindsight not maybe the most diplomatically phrased post, bait you. I'm impressed and want to be your friend. 🥰

I agree with what you're saying on the whole "it's not fun to play" part. I can't even remember the last time I picked up khora or atlas. Spamming 1 is very unfulfilling gameplay. On Gara, I was very disappointed to find out that the new augment Shattered Storm does not apply the accumulated damage stored by the use of her 1 thus leaving you without that synergy. Otherwise Gara would have maybe been one of the most fun frames for me. Instead Gyre skipped up to my top 5. Lots of synergy there albeit, perhaps not as much as Gara would have been if the augment worked like advertised.

In the end though, I think the only solid argument I could make that makes me think "Why did they do statsticks like this?" is that it's not as streamlined as other interactions in the game. It does feel janky. But for me at least, the depth of what you can do with a statstick far outweighs the downside.

[(PSN)Ragology]

1 hour ago, vixenpixel said:

 🥰

In the end though, I think the only solid argument I could make that makes me think "Why did they do statsticks like this?" is that it's not as streamlined as other interactions in the game. It does feel janky. But for me at least, the depth of what you can do with a statstick far outweighs the downside.

 

I feel like if De ever made the stst stick abilities separately moddable, we'd lose a lot of the current power we've got with them. Maybe they could throw in some new augments that auto change the ability to use the enemy's weakness? I don't know how balance works myself.

I wish more abilities could scale with stat sticks though. Like frosts 1. 

A lot of my fun in warframe came from managing Stat stcks though. Got to try out rivers and weapons and builds I normally wouldn't touch, and it made the game more enjoyable for me 

[vixenpixel]

On 2023-09-01 at 7:03 PM, (PSN)Ragology said:

 

I feel like if De ever made the stst stick abilities separately moddable, we'd lose a lot of the current power we've got with them. Maybe they could throw in some new augments that auto change the ability to use the enemy's weakness? I don't know how balance works myself.

I wish more abilities could scale with stat sticks though. Like frosts 1. 

A lot of my fun in warframe came from managing Stat stcks though. Got to try out rivers and weapons and builds I normally wouldn't touch, and it made the game more enjoyable for me 

Yeah same. My skana riven has +melee damage, cc, cd, sadly no negative. When the eventual nerf of incarnon disposition hits, i'll do calculations and potentially go back to my cc/cd with a range negative amphis riven. Yeah, Frosts 1's, ember's 1, volt's. That would be cool. 

[Amolistic.]

On 2023-08-26 at 6:39 PM, vixenpixel said:

You can't helminth cat away, if you over-write the 3rd you just cant order venari to do stuff. It's still going to block your whipclaw.

Statisticks adds a fun level of depth to the game. Terrible idea.

good statsticks which requires riven, and rivens, as you may know, is a market that is inflated with plat, and i don't think is a complete good mechanic...not every player has that luxury.

Imagine this, if your frame needs to be good like this, it just kinda make them very high investment and the results just become so much different due to a riven mod.

Its a mechanic with downsides and upsides, and varies from who you ask.