Tennocon wasn't the place for soulframe

[(PSN)PaceBrkr]

On 2023-08-26 at 8:17 PM, DeeDeeLyla said:

To be fair, since it hasn't been released nor has its own convention established TennoCon was the place for it... however, the TennoLive segment itself was unequivocally NOT the place for it

I agree 100% with many here (and likely many more who will be) saying that it should have gotten its own labeled timeslot somewhere in the lineup
 

This cannot be said enough

To me, the single worst part is that Soulframe's arguably oversized (or at the very least, in my own opinion, definitely mis-positioned and mis-labeled) time slot being within TennoLive came at the expense of Warframe team members essentially having to make up for lost time (and possibly having to move more of what they wanted to show then and there into an upcoming September devstream instead)

Second to that (but also no less disgusting) is how viewers that are pressed for time and only available to watch certain segments of TennoLive (let alone TennoCon in its entirety) were expecting to see the Warframe 1999 reveal at, say, the beginning of TennoLive rather than at the end -- an even more trivial change which could have EASILY averted that and possibly other problems by the way -- but instead were basically baited-and-switched into watching the Soulframe reveal instead, then had to immediately go to work / appointment(s) / etc. afterwards

I get that VODs / recaps / etc. exist, which mitigates the immediate above at least somewhat... but I'm truly deeply hoping that DE as a whole learns at least one important lesson from how this particular segment was (mis)handled and makes necessary adjustment(s) to future TennoCon schedules going forward, which would also include transparently labeling what exactly is shown during what segment and when

Whispers in the Walls was the main dish here. Warframe 1999 was the little sneak peak for further down the line that they usually give us at Tennocon. For example, when they ran the demo for Fortuna and showed work in progress Railjack. That was a bonus demo. Warframe 1999 did what it was supposed to in that regard, build hype for later on in addition to the next big update.

It's a bit weird pushing the QoL update discussion to a later Devstream. But I think we had enough covered for presenting Dagath's update, the demo for Whispers in the Walls and the sneak peak at 1999.

~~~
That Soulframe demo? If Reb and the current team were considerate to accommodate time for it, then that says enough. They thought it was worth that valuable 31 minutes to share the stage for it.
It definitely could've been pared down some. Should it have had it's own segment? Sure. I suppose you'd run it in that downtime before TennoLive.

Edited August 31, 2023 by (PSN)PaceBrkr

[Silescere]

Title already says it. I was only able to attend online / via stream and TennoLive was not about Tenno most of the time. For the first time I felt let down a bit.

The option I used was muting the stream and do something else entirely until Soulframe was finally over. I would have loved to hear more from Pablo, I sat there in awe at the live music performance, I was rooting for every Tenno who won a price etc. Literally every other second was cherished.

There was so much good content to show, so many interesting things to get hyped for, but they felt a bit.. uhm...like fillers in comparison to the Soulframe bracket (which honestly I would have alotted a completely separate Stream segment) and which I could've totally done without.

Thanks to everyone who made the event as a whole a success!

[Birdframe_Prime]

17 hours ago, Silescere said:

TennoLive was not about Tenno most of the time

Approximately five hours devoted to Warframe art, music, cosplays and new reveals compared to approximately 32 minutes of time on a new game by the same developers.

'Most of the time'. Right.

[Nekomian]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Approximately five hours devoted to Warframe art, music, cosplays and new reveals compared to approximately 32 minutes of time on a new game by the same developers.

'Most of the time'. Right.

To clarify they're referring to "TennoLive", the segment from 4:30PM to end of the show, which is here: 

These are just approximations based on some quick video scrubbing and aren't exact, but:

Soulframe game demo & intro was approximately 35 mins (9:20 to 44:50), and Warframe gameplay showcase (i.e. new cinematic quest stuff) was approximately 28 minutes (1:16:14 to 1:44:04).

There were a bunch of other giveaways, talking about the heirloom packs, some banter, the iOS build, etc. for about 20 mins (44:50 to 1:05:50) and the Dagoth update, new prime frames & future content updates for future devstreams for about 11 or so mins (1:05:50 to 1:16:14).

So it was primarily Warframe-focused, but I think people would be justified in their complaints if they felt Soulframe took up too much of the live segment portion since it constitutes about 33% of the segment and the actual gameplay portion shown during the stream was longer than Warframe's gameplay showcase.

To be clear I personally enjoyed both, but I can understand why that might be annoying when the entire rest of the convention was Warframe to just throw on a half hour of a totally separate game. I presume they wanted to showcase the work that their staff has been doing to put into this new game and are proud of, but it being a different segment would've made more sense logistically.

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, Naroxas44 said:

So it was primarily Warframe-focused, but I think people would be justified in their complaints if they felt Soulframe took up too much of the live segment portion

No, I don't think they would be. I don't think they're justified at all. I genuinely put this in the same category of unjustified complaints as the video footage we have of entitled people shouting at cashiers for not getting their meal refunded after they've already eaten the meal.

Digital Extremes makes both games, the same creators worked on both, and the teams agreed to have Soulframe there on TennoLive. By what justification does anyone have to be complaining about Soulframe having a time slot there? Even the people that are saying 'But they complained about going over time' and no, that's not even an argument, because there were hours of venue time still remaining in their booked day. At most it means that the roadies have to pack the sound kit up a little faster.

But honestly, what 'justification' is there for this diatribe of complaints? This... drivel?

Because it's not Warframe? The only reason that TennoCon has been just Warframe in the past is because they didn't have another game. DE devoted an entire section last year to Airship Studios because they were partnering with them to help create Wayfinder, and they even had a Soulframe preview then too, so this isn't even unprecedented.

Soulframe will get its own DevStreams, it has its own online media presence, and will continue to grow until release. But we can absolutely expect to see the two games become intrinsically linked at the annual TennoCon in the same way as the various Nintendo games each get screen time on their Directs.

Art panels will evolve to have both, sound panels will ping-pong between the nature sounds and the sci-fi sounds, and Cosplay panels will start featuring people dressed as characters from either game. TennoLive having a Soulframe section is almost certain to become a regular thing.

So these complaints are specifically that; unjustified. Unnecessary. Pointless and childish.

[Nekomian]

31 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

TennoLive having a Soulframe section is almost certain to become a regular thing.

I don't disagree, and again I personally am fine with this game and will probably play it - but note that you even stated a "soulframe section". As in, it has its own timeslot and schedule, its own section - there was not really any indication of that, which is the only justifiable reason I'd understand (outside of like, just not liking the game, which is more personal opinion). Nothing about "Tennocon Live" indicates to me "Soulframe segment" other than "the same dev company works on both", which is more of a statement than confirmation. This does not really happen in other announcements, I don't see Sega announcing Yakuza remasters or whatever in Sonic Centrals.

58 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

same way as the various Nintendo games each get screen time on their Directs

Yes, the Nintendo Directs feature things on their platform, but you don't see animal crossing announcements in a super mario wonder showcase. There's a large difference of content based on the language used. "TennoCon" implies Tenno, or Warframe content since SoulFrame does not have Tenno (as far as I'm aware). Again I personally don't care that much, but I can understand why someone wanting to only watch Warframe updates would be annoyed seeing half an hour of a game that isn't Warframe, and their complaints are still valid even if the issue itself is relatively minor in scope.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Digital Extremes makes both games, the same creators worked on both, and the teams agreed to have Soulframe there on TennoLive. By what justification does anyone have to be complaining about Soulframe having a time slot there?

It's the expectations set by the schedule (does not mention anywhere about SoulFrame on the online version) and by the event itself; people don't tune into a stream about Diablo games to suddenly see Overwatch, just because they're worked on by the same company. You could argue "tennocon just means DECon cause it's nicer to say", and that may well be true but it's not communicated by the name alone and sets viewers expectations for the content to be Warframe focused. I don't think it's unhinged or childish for people to voice complaints about this, especially given all the media I'm seeing says "celebrates 10 phenomenal years of Warframe" and "Tennocon is a convention held in London, Ontario to celebrate Warframe’s past, revel in its present, and look toward its future".

[Silescere]

On 2023-09-01 at 12:29 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Approximately five hours devoted to Warframe art, music, cosplays and new reveals compared to approximately 32 minutes of time on a new game by the same developers.

'Most of the time'. Right.

That's why I specifically didn't say TennoCon , but TennoLive. But yeah, feel free to interpret that simple sentence your way.

Edit: And thanks @Naroxas44 , you got it :)

Edited September 2, 2023 by Silescere

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, Naroxas44 said:

Yes, the Nintendo Directs feature things on their platform, but you don't see animal crossing announcements in a super mario wonder showcase.

That's a false comparison. They would show an Animal Crossing announcement then a break, then a Mario Wonder showcase. Guess what DE did on TennoLive? They showed a Soulframe announcement, then a break, then a Warframe announcement (two in fact).

I'm not sure if you're actually misunderstanding that point or if you're actively trying to force the idea.

And this:

14 hours ago, Naroxas44 said:

"TennoCon" implies Tenno, or Warframe content since SoulFrame does not have Tenno (as far as I'm aware).

It hasn't needed to be anything else for ten years, why change the iconic name now? This is a ridiculous point. And hell, maybe next year it won't be called TennoCon, it'll be called the Digital Extremes Showcase or something. That's a complete non-starter of an argument because, again, Digital Extremes set up these events when they only had one game. They don't have to change it now that they have two, because it's an established name.

14 hours ago, Naroxas44 said:

It's the expectations set by the schedule (does not mention anywhere about SoulFrame on the online version)

It doesn't need to.

All of these are just weird excuses trying to justify Karen behaviour.

They all got their Warframe announcements, they all got the upcoming things. There was nothing else on the Warframe bracket that they would have seen or found out about during TennoLive.

Without the Soulframe section, the TennoLive would have just had more fluff and filler about how happy they were to have everyone there, it wouldn't have given them anything more.

They got an extra thing, for free, and are complaining that they somehow had something taken away. And before you say 'time' these people were there anyway and would have had their time wasted by something else instead.

[yarl5000]

Why are we surprised that DE would show off their other game in progress at Tennocon? They are excited to show it off, and I found it interesting. 

Tennocon is going to change to encompass both Warframe and Soulframe but Tennocon is just a more iconic name now than like Framecon or DE-con.

Also that downtime was required for them to reset up the room this year since it was in person, plus give everyone a chance to visit bathrooms, grab snack, reset up for the demos, final checks, etc. 

[Nekomian]

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm not sure if you're actually misunderstanding that point or if you're actively trying to force the idea.

I'm not, but I think you're misunderstanding my point here - If it was called DECon then it would be all things DE, and I doubt there would be these complaints; similarly, "Nintendo Directs" have all things releasing on their platform, the switch. However, individual videos (i.e. a standalone mario wonder showcase, like the most recent "direct" we got, which is what I was referring to) was only about that one topic. It did not divert into another game, or showcase anything else - that's the expectation I believe TennoCon sets for people, it's about Tenno & Warframe, nothing else.

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

They don't have to change it now that they have two, because it's an established name.

You're right, they don't - but it's confusing as is, and many news outlets and official Warframe posts do not mention the event as "DE showcase" or anything but Warframe-adjacent. It would help (and have less people complaining) if they properly tagged and slotted it in its own dedicated spot. I would argue that the "karen behavior" you're referring to would be demanding they don't show it at all or create an entire separate con for it, when most people are just complaining because it was not properly labeled or tagged and they personally don't want to watch it. Time is valuable to a lot of people, and it's understandable that they're upset for having to sit through something unrelated to what they are there to watch, in this case Warframe updates.

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

They got an extra thing, for free, and are complaining that they somehow had something taken away.

All the complaints I'm seeing are just that they personally didn't want to see it or had no interest in it - sure there's the hypothetical "pablo could've talked more about X" or extended Warframe time, but they did plan the whole live segment out and accommodated for all the content shown in it. Most of the complaints are just on the basis of "this wasted my time", not that it took anything away from Warframe showcases or content itself. I don't think that's unjustified, even if it's not something I'd personally complain about because I'd just mute the stream and do something else until it's over, and I understand many people may not have the time to spend watching the full stream or keep checking to see if the content they're interested in is debuting yet.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

I'm not, but I think you're misunderstanding my point here - If it was called DECon then it would be all things DE

And what difference does that make? I mean... Honestly? The only reason it's even called TennoCon is because it's catchy, DE actually said that.

Being called TennoCon doesn't set expectations, it just has history. And that history, let me remind you, already includes Soulframe and even Airship Studios.

It's not confusing in the slightest.

That is exactly what I said; an excuse.

An excuse for a response no different to the ones we see from any Karen story on Reddit.

People are upset? Great. Sure. That's their opinion on it, I can respect that they have an opinion.

The thing about opinions is that they're only worth the weight of another opinion. The only thing that matters when you put something on a Forum (which is a location specifically for peer review) is what backs up the opinion. What makes it a justifiable argument.

And that's the point. The argument they're making is completely unjustified.

The opinion is just that, an opinion. Coming on the Forums and saying that their opinion is correct, however, means they get people telling them to sit down again before they hurt themselves trying to think in corkscrews.

[Nekomian]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Coming on the Forums and saying that their opinion is correct, however, means they get people telling them to sit down again before they hurt themselves trying to think in corkscrews.

I don't think this is going to get anywhere further / there's really any more constructive responses to say at this point, but I will say this - I think people can be justified in their opinions and those feelings are valid as there is no "correct" way to feel about something, and I don't see anyone here going "I'm right you're wrong" in this thread, just stating opinions. They are opinions you can disagree with and think that the people who hold said opinions are "childish" or "karens", but that doesn't make them feel any different about it or detract from those feelings or opinions.

I tried to lay out some info and facts (based on runtimes and expectations one may have) to demonstrate why people may have these opinions, as I don't share it personally but can understand why people may be upset. You're free to disagree with any of these things if you'd like (i.e "TennoCon" doesn't set an expectation for being only Tenno-adjacent, there's historical precedent for them showcasing other projects so it's not confusing, the rest of the con was Warframe centered, the devs are from the same studio, etc.), but those can just as easily be seen as excuses for dismissing how people feel about something. Those expectations or historical precedent may mean something entirely different to someone who is a new player or never seen a TennoCon before vs a 10 year vet who's attended every one, and that's totally fine - neither is "correct", they're just different viewpoints and opinions reached.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

They are opinions you can disagree with and think that the people who hold said opinions are "childish" or "karens", but that doesn't make them feel any different about it or detract from those feelings or opinions.

Again, this isn't about me agreeing or disagreeing with the opinions themselves.

It's about these people trying to argue that their opinions are more valid than other people's. Exemplified by so many of the replies to this thread, and a couple of them to my comments in particular.

[LuckyCharm]

Y'see, thing is itd have been fine to show some soulframe recaps if theyd given soulframe a segment earlier in tennocon when they could talk about things in depth like they did with the art and music things warframe did, then it wouldnt have been a half hour of slow gameplay showing a pre-alpha version of a game that isnt warframe at the beginning of the main Warframe segment of the year. If theyd had some warframe stuff in tennolive before soulframes showcase too it'd have given the Warframe players something to think about and be excited for even if they werent excited for soulframe. Tennolive for the past 8 or so years or however many theyve had has entirely been warframes "if you watch anything this year, watch this one" stream where they get people hyped for the coming year in the games life cycle. This did the opposite. It actively gave the impression "we dont have much exciting stuff to show and the games not really getting much content this year so heres something else instead" since all we were shown is a lil prequel story arc for a sector a lot of us dont care for, showing another non-warframe segment with more transferance into something not a warframe, and showing a new tileset. And then  we got 1999 which was cool, but isnt coming out this year. Pretty lacking in content announcements. Probably due to the lack of time to explain anything. 

[JustinJustinJustinJustin]

I mostly feel the same, I watch for Tenno related things and could care less about soulframe.

Maybe it should be its own thing with a live stream or update thing every few months, taking up a 3rd of a warframe event for something that isnt even related to the same universe seems like a weird choice.