Warframe 1999 - Add-on content is nice, but I'd have preferred core Warframe to be the main focus

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

44 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m sure you know what players would do though,

The rule of power scaling can be said of Dragon Age and even many, many games that are refreshingly different, even mechanically, from it.

In Bioware games[Mass Effect], the straight path is hard yet you can farm it to heck, but it's also possible to power-game the tutorial of KOTOR until you hit the level cap, at which point, how you spend the EXP can ironically hard-nerf a major aspect of the whole game[the cap is shared amongst character classes, so a max-level scout can basically only be a first-level jedi because you're given the class, but not because you leveled into it, so it's also beneficial NOT to level until you become a jedi, for the bonus stats.] All Kingdom Hearts games can be farmed in the tutorial. Simulators, idle, active, clicker, MOBA, can be farmed before any bonus objectives are touched, often to disgusting effect of making those otherwise hard tasks less than challenges.

They'd find a way to break the story and that's exactly what happens with players carrying the autonomy and the permission to do so in their hands. Suddenly, the power fantasy becomes more literal in games that never hold you back. This entire principle, if you apply it especially to warframe, doesn't work differently. If you do any game's farm, you get any game's reward. Skipping farms, you're punished in 'The Sacrifice' for not being strong enough, by struggling. And if you farmed, you can nerf yourself, like in... every RPG.

You can remove your gear in Dragon Age and nobody winks. You beat any game at level one, everyone envies this. But it's envy on account of autonomy, not pre-decision. You can also farm Dead Space legitimately in very few cases, or cheese the game to give one weapon practically infinite ammo, in both cases, one preparing you to get upgraded gear, one preparing you to main a primary weapon, it's possible to simply enter a boss fight and trivialize it because you killed the same enemy, that keeps popping up when you re-enter a specific room, three times. Instead of using everything you find, you sell them, too. Weapons included. And the game doesn't punish you, because the first game loved how you only had a cutter.

 

Some players will jump straight into warframe's quests. Some players will not.

Some will meme the hell out of the story by being exclusively an excalibur with the most basic of mods, used in the least meta, most logical way, then they'll enjoy their afternoon because they were not told they couldn't. And some will play as revenant and expect the developers to either account for this or accept this, since the farm is most of the game, inherently. If it's not accounted for, the players shouldn't be blamed for it. Just fix it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

38 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

The rule of power scaling can be said of Dragon Age and even many, many games that are refreshingly different, even mechanically, from it.

In Bioware games[Mass Effect], the straight path is hard yet you can farm it to heck, but it's also possible to power-game the tutorial of KOTOR until you hit the level cap, at which point, how you spend the EXP can ironically hard-nerf a major aspect of the whole game[the cap is shared amongst character classes, so a max-level scout can basically only be a first-level jedi because you're given the class, but not because you leveled into it, so it's also beneficial NOT to level until you become a jedi, for the bonus stats.] All Kingdom Hearts games can be farmed in the tutorial. Simulators, idle, active, clicker, MOBA, can be farmed before any bonus objectives are touched, often to disgusting effect of making those otherwise hard tasks less than challenges.

They'd find a way to break the story and that's exactly what happens with players carrying the autonomy and the permission to do so in their hands. Suddenly, the power fantasy becomes more literal in games that never hold you back. This entire principle, if you apply it especially to warframe, doesn't work differently. If you do any game's farm, you get any game's reward. Skipping farms, you're punished in 'The Sacrifice' for not being strong enough, by struggling. And if you farmed, you can nerf yourself, like in... every RPG.

You can remove your gear in Dragon Age and nobody winks. You beat any game at level one, everyone envies this. But it's envy on account of autonomy, not pre-decision. You can also farm Dead Space legitimately in very few cases, or cheese the game to give one weapon practically infinite ammo, in both cases, one preparing you to get upgraded gear, one preparing you to main a primary weapon, it's possible to simply enter a boss fight and trivialize it because you killed the same enemy, that keeps popping up when you re-enter a specific room, three times. Instead of using everything you find, you sell them, too. Weapons included. And the game doesn't punish you, because the first game loved how you only had a cutter.

 

Some players will jump straight into warframe's quests. Some players will not.

Some will meme the hell out of the story by being exclusively an excalibur with the most basic of mods, used in the least meta, most logical way, then they'll enjoy their afternoon because they were not told they couldn't. And some will play as revenant and expect the developers to either account for this or accept this, since the farm is most of the game, inherently. If it's not accounted for, the players shouldn't be blamed for it. Just fix it.

It’s not like Revenant is the thing that determines success, it’s how you build it and what else you bring and how that’s built as well (plus how you play, but that’s not typically considered by players). That’s why I suggested level 60 instead of level 30 (though it doesn’t really matter; it could be level 80 or 100), because it’s in that cross section of vertical power and horizontal customisation where some progress is needed, but it allows for customisation of equipment instead of being forced into whatever mods and Arcanes are necessary to sit in higher-level content at cost to what the player would like to use

The content sits at and is balanced for a certain level and expects a certain amount of player survival/damage within that level for the various enemy types whose damage and health will be defined by the level, going beyond that at cost to customisation puts the player into higher-level content and going below that at increase to customisation means that they’ll struggle if not flat out constantly fail no matter how well they play and they find themselves in lower-level content. You talk about players deciding for themselves how they want to play, but that requires knowing in the first place what the content is looking for to determine how they want to approach, and typically players are adhering to the idea of “Death is the most efficient form of CC” while they farm for things that they could use to define their approach, but ultimately don’t

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You’re under the impression that trust

I have twice as many ideas what this continues into, than there are level walls in the game.

Casuals can handle 25-45 fairly easily without mod fidelity, so to start there, this would've been around the time you unlock the planets that even progress the story. Below or during Sacrifice. This isn't assuming that players need mods to get here-- they really don't, stealth is actually very practical for players lacking the means to survive, simply by not engaging everything personally.

50 - 60 barely requires the best mods in the game, and when you give players the choice to not use mods in the first place, it's still possible for players to use Loki for clutch-stealth, Ivara for stealth, Kullervo for ironical tank-stealth, Excalibur for fitting stun-finishers and Grendel for tank-power. You do chip damage without finishers, which stealth accomplishes when practiced. Grendel may struggle, but the player has options for 'harder,' and it's still possible to do missions without the mods that instantly empower you beyond hell.

60 would be New War, or a place that more or less explicitly warns you to prepare before you engage at all. Except-- Warning's irrelevant because New War as a whole doesn't MAKE it relevant, or allow it, the player, their time and effort, or their forma have any place in the story with any relevance.

Levels 70 - 90? You're going to struggle, you're going to die, you're NOT going to survive without mods, unless you're a player who takes into consideration that not even a "Level 1" playthrough is possible without some amount of actual grinding, in this case, the grind is for Limbo and a way to exploit breakable mechanics to get ahead. You get Xoris, which pretty much makes it possible to kill everything from a distance, near cover. You can shield scum. No mods required, but you're still going to punch a boss for six hours and hopefully it doesn't have healing mechanics. Vay Hek does. Revenant can skip two phases on that Deimos boss, using only his mind control. And both those bosses aren't even remotely that hard. You can still skip combat and simply rush to the end, using any of the gimmicks on the harder objectives. Spies don't require mods. Excavation can be beaten without killing.

If you've unlocked Steel Path, you're well beyond the point of New War. Even so... most of the star chart can be soloed with no mods, as long as you have an idea how the mechanics work. Exalted weapons? Viable without mods. If New War let players be accountable for their own fun, players would have a real conversation about purposefully handicapping themselves, rather than being handicapped without a choice. And players would also demonstrate the consequence or irony of being min-maxed.

Steel Path is also possible if you manage to avoid mods and go for shards with exception. Unfortunately, the only content gate that's impossible is the content gate with shards, mandatory kills, or a time limit influenced by your performance[kills for oxygen.]

SP Deimos will take LITERAL hours to kill the big infested unless you have innate damage against them, whereas, it's still quite a while and shieldgatling is redundant, since you will be nuked. The part of the chart that doesn't fit 'Mostly' is the part where you're not playing gates for an ideal experience, you're approaching gates for a realistic experience. It's unrealistic to beat conduits without real effort and mods. That said, players do have autonomy in how to play and if they can accomplish it and contradict the impossibility of soloing the chart, modless, then I firmly maintain that most of the chart can be soloed. Back to New War.

New War, in an ideal scenario, would barely scale into the 80's at the hardest. Why?
Because by the time you reach that quest, even through only the codex and a few rank-bumps, you'll not have the mods farmed to handle Steel Path, which is a battle of attrition just to participate in. And you'll scale very closely to the 60's.

Whispers? 65.

1999 is as hard as the kuva fortress in hypothesis alone, even with helminth buffs in OTHER cases, it's doubtful such farmed buffs, to substitute for hard-upgrades, will carry. But how can 1999 scale ANYWHERE without autonomy? "It's as hard" assumes you're not literally GIVEN a build and the means to make it easier than the FIRST battle against Vor of all people! You cannot measure difficulty when the basis of that difficulty is that everything is homogenized and everything is tailored to be specifically this-that, regardless of their stats in relation to your stats. 

If it's based solely on precludes, it's not difficulty, it's just chess with more dimensions. If everything is the same, relativity becomes irrelevant as a result. Um...

[(NSW)Greybones]

47 minutes ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

I have twice as many ideas what this continues into, than there are level walls in the game.

Casuals can handle 25-45 fairly easily without mod fidelity, so to start there, this would've been around the time you unlock the planets that even progress the story. Below or during Sacrifice. This isn't assuming that players need mods to get here-- they really don't, stealth is actually very practical for players lacking the means to survive, simply by not engaging everything personally.

50 - 60 barely requires the best mods in the game, and when you give players the choice to not use mods in the first place, it's still possible for players to use Loki for clutch-stealth, Ivara for stealth, Kullervo for ironical tank-stealth, Excalibur for fitting stun-finishers and Grendel for tank-power. You do chip damage without finishers, which stealth accomplishes when practiced. Grendel may struggle, but the player has options for 'harder,' and it's still possible to do missions without the mods that instantly empower you beyond hell.

60 would be New War, or a place that more or less explicitly warns you to prepare before you engage at all. Except-- Warning's irrelevant because New War as a whole doesn't MAKE it relevant, or allow it, the player, their time and effort, or their forma have any place in the story with any relevance.

Levels 70 - 90? You're going to struggle, you're going to die, you're NOT going to survive without mods, unless you're a player who takes into consideration that not even a "Level 1" playthrough is possible without some amount of actual grinding, in this case, the grind is for Limbo and a way to exploit breakable mechanics to get ahead. You get Xoris, which pretty much makes it possible to kill everything from a distance, near cover. You can shield scum. No mods required, but you're still going to punch a boss for six hours and hopefully it doesn't have healing mechanics. Vay Hek does. Revenant can skip two phases on that Deimos boss, using only his mind control. And both those bosses aren't even remotely that hard. You can still skip combat and simply rush to the end, using any of the gimmicks on the harder objectives. Spies don't require mods. Excavation can be beaten without killing.

If you've unlocked Steel Path, you're well beyond the point of New War. Even so... most of the star chart can be soloed with no mods, as long as you have an idea how the mechanics work. Exalted weapons? Viable without mods. If New War let players be accountable for their own fun, players would have a real conversation about purposefully handicapping themselves, rather than being handicapped without a choice. And players would also demonstrate the consequence or irony of being min-maxed.

Steel Path is also possible if you manage to avoid mods and go for shards with exception. Unfortunately, the only content gate that's impossible is the content gate with shards, mandatory kills, or a time limit influenced by your performance[kills for oxygen.]

SP Deimos will take LITERAL hours to kill the big infested unless you have innate damage against them, whereas, it's still quite a while and shieldgatling is redundant, since you will be nuked. The part of the chart that doesn't fit 'Mostly' is the part where you're not playing gates for an ideal experience, you're approaching gates for a realistic experience. It's unrealistic to beat conduits without real effort and mods. That said, players do have autonomy in how to play and if they can accomplish it and contradict the impossibility of soloing the chart, modless, then I firmly maintain that most of the chart can be soloed. Back to New War.

New War, in an ideal scenario, would barely scale into the 80's at the hardest. Why?
Because by the time you reach that quest, even through only the codex and a few rank-bumps, you'll not have the mods farmed to handle Steel Path, which is a battle of attrition just to participate in. And you'll scale very closely to the 60's.

Whispers? 65.

1999 is as hard as the kuva fortress in hypothesis alone, even with helminth buffs in OTHER cases, it's doubtful such farmed buffs, to substitute for hard-upgrades, will carry. But how can 1999 scale ANYWHERE without autonomy? "It's as hard" assumes you're not literally GIVEN a build and the means to make it easier than the FIRST battle against Vor of all people! You cannot measure difficulty when the basis of that difficulty is that everything is homogenized and everything is tailored to be specifically this-that, regardless of their stats in relation to your stats. 

If it's based solely on precludes, it's not difficulty, it's just chess with more dimensions. If everything is the same, relativity becomes irrelevant as a result. Um...

Holy. I started writing that and then got distracted and forgot when I posted, then removed it because I don’t remember what it was meant to be or didn’t think it was worth keeping in.

I’ll read this response, but straight off the bat I’m wondering what novel came from one removed line

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Holy. I started writing that and then got distracted and forgot when I posted, then removed it because I don’t remember what it was meant to be or didn’t think it was worth keeping in.

I’ll read this response, but straight off the bat I’m wondering what novel came from one removed line

The novel involving things like the idea that

> The players cannot keep the build in check.

> The players do not know how to build.

> The players make aggressively mediocre, not bad or great, just mediocre, builds.

> Enemies would still find a way to be one-shot with a bad build, just because it's story mode.

> Players would find a way to lose, despite it being story mode.

> Story mode would become more hilarious than Morrowind, if you exploited the mechanics to have a death touch or 6k in hand-to-hand.

> Someone will flex on Albrecht with a caliban.

> Someone really wants to flex on Albrecht with a Caliban.

> Spam summons and watch them ballerina around the entire map, never expiring before the mission abruptly ends.

> Players will undoubtedly play a Hildryn with maximized shields and slow-walk everywhere for the meme.

> Somebody will paint their Excal black, give him a laser sword colored red, carry a hobbled key literally everywhere and find a single reason to use him unironically, just to justify having Darth Vader in every cutscene.

 

> Someone wants to use the valentine's day wings and unironically spam Zephyr in every instance, for the meme.

 

> Players just want to have fun.

 

Show's over, Ballas, door's Locked.
(I had something else to add and forgot what it was. Must've been one hell of a satirical joke)

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

The novel involving things like the idea that

> The players cannot keep the build in check.

> The players do not know how to build.

> The players make aggressively mediocre, not bad or great, just mediocre, builds.

> Enemies would still find a way to be one-shot with a bad build, just because it's story mode.

> Players would find a way to lose, despite it being story mode.

> Story mode would become more hilarious than Morrowind, if you exploited the mechanics to have a death touch or 6k in hand-to-hand.

> Someone will flex on Albrecht with a caliban.

> Someone really wants to flex on Albrecht with a Caliban.

> Spam summons and watch them ballerina around the entire map, never expiring before the mission abruptly ends.

> Players will undoubtedly play a Hildryn with maximized shields and slow-walk everywhere for the meme.

> Somebody will paint their Excal black, give him a laser sword colored red, carry a hobbled key literally everywhere and find a single reason to use him unironically, just to justify having Darth Vader in every cutscene.

 

> Someone wants to use the valentine's day wings and unironically spam Zephyr in every instance, for the meme.

 

> Players just want to have fun.

I’ll admit I’m impressed by your breadth of knowledge.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

New War, in an ideal scenario, would barely scale into the 80's at the hardest. Why?
Because by the time you reach that quest, even through only the codex and a few rank-bumps, you'll not have the mods farmed to handle Steel Path, which is a battle of attrition just to participate in.

Wait, this is a little confusing. 80 isn’t Steel Path

[CephalonCarnage]

On 2023-09-05 at 11:00 AM, RichardKam said:

recommend readings from authors who have not made any 5+ years live service game, like Warframe.

that like saying "Donald Knuth, he wrote books about computers but they're irrelevant because he hasn't written a single website recently," (actually this is the attitude that makes so much computer stuff so slow, unoptimised and bloated these days. Kids think they know everything... pfft!)

 

5 hours ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

So if you aren't doing the same thing on parade, you're not really advancing.

De definitely knows this, hence they keep adding more stuff - both OP weapons and frames and then wonder why they are having such a hard time making a game that's worth playing for end-game users. I think their core problem is they move too fast, adding so much stuff all at once in an update and then having to make another update similarly sized a few months later. Duviri, for example, didn't need the undercroft or circuit at start. they could have added both one at a time and stretch the update over 3 months. They could have released Archons one at a trime as a big fanfare, but didn't. It was all in one update and then on to the next.

As a result all the OP kit is accelerating and their only option is to release stuff that's barely related to the game. I think they gave up on warframe on TNW and are desperate to make something else. And I'm not sure we can blame them, fixing WF will break it for so many (toxic?) players, and they rely on many of those for the money that keeps the studio going.

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You made the claim. I'd have liked to see you present something to back your claim, so I can at least see what your perspective is built on and see how much you understand about the damage system. It has become painfully obvious your knowledge and understanding regarding various mechanics in this game is lacking.

And like I said, the builds arent different enough to make the single target option gain a significant benefit, since in the end we are still talking about AoE encounters and not bosses. Also as mentioned, if there was a bigger difference between true AoE weapons and single target, we'd still have the bastards like chain beam weapons and cluster weapons. Weapons that are already the top out of the AoE options aswell. So no change to anything in the end.

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I simply know the game. 

I made the claim and I back it up. Stop your excuses.

Nice try. Did you enjoy failing up to 10 extractors in a fissure or "alert" mission? Also to note, this does not work for regular excav, nor is it the slightest rewarding for anything. So how this ended up in a subject regarding CC duration reduction because CC trivilizes things I have no clue about. Since what you've done is ineffective and not a concept of trivializing the mode. Plus, in this case actual CC wouldnt help, you rely on a self buff to achieve this. CC in this case would only prolong it and not move the objective forward.

[Silligoose]

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And like I said, the builds arent different enough to make the single target option gain a significant benefit, since in the end we are still talking about AoE encounters and not bosses. Also as mentioned, if there was a bigger difference between true AoE weapons and single target, we'd still have the bastards like chain beam weapons and cluster weapons. Weapons that are already the top out of the AoE options aswell. So no change to anything in the end.

Nice try. Did you enjoy failing up to 10 extractors in a fissure or "alert" mission? Also to note, this does not work for regular excav, nor is it the slightest rewarding for anything. So how this ended up in a subject regarding CC duration reduction because CC trivilizes things I have no clue about. Since what you've done is ineffective and not a concept of trivializing the mode. Plus, in this case actual CC wouldnt help, you rely on a self buff to achieve this. CC in this case would only prolong it and not move the objective forward.

I just see you being your old self: trying to worm yourself out of your incorrect stances and making excuses. 

You've demonstrated you aren't at the level of knowledge in which you can meaningfully add to conversational topics such as damage, cc or balance, as you are wrong about rather basic concepts far too often.

[SneakyErvin]

41 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I just see you being your old self: trying to worm yourself out of your incorrect stances and making excuses. 

You've demonstrated you aren't at the level of knowledge in which you can meaningfully add to conversational topics such as damage, cc or balance, as you are wrong about rather basic concepts far too often.

Ah yes, coming from the guy who posts a screenshot of an excavation where not a single extractor went beyond the initial 20% energy and claiming it as a completed mission. When it isnt even a possibility to do it in the most commonly ran versions of said mode. While also not showcasing the CC part in said missions, but instead rely on a completely unrelated skill just to be able to actually progress the mission.

Dashing into the rift =/= CC.

[CephalonCarnage]

IIRC Ivara can loot the power core from the enemies.

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Ah yes, coming from the guy who posts a screenshot of an excavation where not a single extractor went beyond the initial 20% energy and claiming it as a completed mission

that still counts though. Mission complete regardless of how you do it.

you do know Ivara can pickpocket the power cells from live grineer. And you can bump into the enemies so they get distracted and stop shooting the excavator. You can also nudge the kubrow dens to attack the grineer too, that doesn't count as kills and also distracts them from shooting your excavator. If you are lucky enough to get a couple of power carriers spawn then you can power a single excavator, bumping its shields to full over and over that level 1 grineer cannot get through quickly enough.

I would imagine some harmless but incapacitating ability like gloom, lull or spellbind helps a lot too (all helminth-able). Does damage reflection abilities count as a kill if they kill each other? I forget but you can either use ability to make them fight each other, or a weapon modded to do little damage but giving radiation procs to do the same.

[Silligoose]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Ah yes, coming from the guy who posts a screenshot of an excavation where not a single extractor went beyond the initial 20% energy and claiming it as a completed mission. When it isnt even a possibility to do it in the most commonly ran versions of said mode. While also not showcasing the CC part in said missions, but instead rely on a completely unrelated skill just to be able to actually progress the mission.

Dashing into the rift =/= CC.

On 2023-09-10 at 12:04 PM, SneakyErvin said:

And claiming you can complete excavation without killing is hilarious! Do you have a magic trick up your sleeve to get carriers and their batteries to spawn without killing them or others? Did you mean interception perhaps? Which cant be completed without killing either.

You made a claim, which I again quote above. I proved it wrong. That's how simple this is. You could've owned up to your mistake, learnt from it and we could have moved on. Instead, you show great immaturity, looking for an excuse trying to justify a stance you were wrong about, while trying to change the narrative. This trait of yours is likely stunting growth of knowledge and understanding, which is probably why you believe and share so many incorrect notions.

You were wrong again Ervin. You need to learn how to deal with it.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 19 horas, (NSW)Free_Aetharus dijo:

The heart of Warframe is the game you play as a necessity, rather than a game you play merely and only for 10% of your real progress.

With just this one line I think you've cleared the concept ad-perfection, great job!

Synthesising what you've just told me, it is what I had a hunch it would be; all the mechanics and feel you obtain from playing start chart, or a very large part of it at least.
Any deviation from this that doesn't feel like said base experience we play much more often and continuously which Warframe is built upon, like Duviri or Railjack, are not CW, despite having a lot of elements of it! Base Railjack was lesser CW due to the missions being more unique and ship-focused, whereas Corpus Railjack is a lot more like it, with a bit of taxi-ying around, which I don't like. Likewise the point you mentioned of Duviri is correct; being dubious, as it draws a lot from CW, but it's not CW exactly.
_{^{And yes I am the psychopath who's farming an incarnon adapter for each weapon variant, not many are left heheeee.}}

Fancy little Haiku-like segment you added there, pretty well blent-in with the rest of your point, but this would be Core Warframe for me, or for you too perhaps.

As kamisama mentioned, the core experience of the game changed over time as other "major gameplay" content was added, like Railjack, once again, which is presented pretty early on to the new players now. However, it does compose a fairly small part of the game despite having plentiful of nodes and the void-damned things that I am still against 4 years later: Ash & Oberon being part of it instead of free warframes the player could earn from playing the normal game as they used to. Oh, and Liches flying to their ships because yolo.

Basically, the truck* with the band and the bobble-head is the core experience for the newer players even if the vehicle itself is the majority of the thing, but for the people who has been sticking around for longer, these are all new little things that slowly but surely cover it, and maybe eventually make it almost invisible.
^{*That Scott never finished in his garage.}

With things being clearer now, I can understand what Silligoose is coming at, although its not like I didn't already.
Despite still thinking new and different content is exactly what the game needs instead of more of the same, I comprehend that fear of continuous drifting away in the search of the next jaw-dropping thing having the possibility of leaving a game with no clear identity behind, even if fun and entertained to play.
Warframe is supposedly about space ninjas, but only half of that statement is true to this day.

Even with that in mind, I reiterate what I said, Whispers in the Walls and 1999 are looking very in-line with Core Warframe, 1999 clearly not as much but in-mission wise it might still feel a lot like Warframe, we will have to see what else is besides playing as half-frames, but in due time.
_{Need to add that ar to my arsenal too...}

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

4 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

fixing WF will break it for so many (toxic?) players, and they rely on many of those for the money that keeps the studio going.

You could be right on the money tbh. They need to replace the star chart with barely related minigames to hide their lack of confidence that they can properly balance their game.

I've already compared it to thrillville. I've compared it to arcades. I've compared the problem to a lot of things.

Warframe is becoming Mario Party. Straight up.

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

45 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Oh, and Liches flying to their ships because yolo.

This is why I play railjack tbh. Raiding their ship and going all
"Syam la vie" on their entire crew.

[tabernacl]

I'm going to comment on the title of the OP cuz too lazy to read through everyone's discussion. 

some perspective- so I started playing Warframe (originally) on console then pc back when the only prime frame in the game was Ember (and ofc Excalibur for founders). Back then I think the only alternative to core in the game was archwing iirc or archwing was added a bit after I started. Anyway, the first (major) thing to happen in Warframe was the Second Dream quest. Warframe was and I still believe peaked at that point cuz you were playing the game you enjoyed (core) and it filled players with hope that it could grow the game to a better state of content. So I think most players believed that Warframe was gonna be (core) Warframe which would grow to more (core) content for players to enjoy. But... if you've been watching dev streams for many years and paying attention to the studio over the years you might have started to realize that Steve (the former creative director) had no idea what to do with the game or what direction to go. So he was always stressed and I guess eventually didn't really have a passion for the game anymore so I guess moving to Soulframe was best for him. Anyway (again), since DE was kind of lost on what to do with the game they started trying out ideas aka (other game modes) At first, it wasn't a big deal cus the focus remained around (core) and the other stuff started getting tacked on. Unfortunately this mindset has taken the game down the tracks of all kinds of different game modes. 

So the game is at a point now where it's basically diluted and polluted with different game systems which are no longer optional, they've become canon and mandatory for 'progression'. Side note- (most of these other games/modes  were straight up ripped off from other games and slapped with a Warframe theme).  Core systems which is the 'bread and butter' are being left in the past with no improvements. I could do a bit of ranting about old warframes, damage systems and ai, but this won't do anything. I assume the game is just gonna stay on the path of shiny new toy/grind. Some players will enjoy it and some will think to themselves 'this isn't Warframe anymore'. Who knows.

2 cents or w/e. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

You could be right on the money tbh. They need to replace the star chart with barely related minigames to hide their lack of confidence that they can properly balance their game.

I've already compared it to thrillville. I've compared it to arcades. I've compared the problem to a lot of things.

Warframe is becoming Mario Party. Straight up.

I’m surprised you’re using the classic “Balance the game” used by players expecting strict linear progression when I thought you knew how the game was balanced currently

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, tabernacl said:

so I started playing Warframe (originally) on console then pc back when the only prime frame in the game was Ember

Frost Prime came before Ember Prime.

[tabernacl]

5 hours ago, Corvid said:

Frost Prime came before Ember Prime.

yes you are correct and I was incorrect. trying to recall 9-10 yr old memories, they might be distorted a bit. I should have said 'I started playing after Ember P was released and before Rhino P was released.'

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

IIRC Ivara can loot the power core from the enemies.

that still counts though. Mission complete regardless of how you do it.

you do know Ivara can pickpocket the power cells from live grineer. And you can bump into the enemies so they get distracted and stop shooting the excavator. You can also nudge the kubrow dens to attack the grineer too, that doesn't count as kills and also distracts them from shooting your excavator. If you are lucky enough to get a couple of power carriers spawn then you can power a single excavator, bumping its shields to full over and over that level 1 grineer cannot get through quickly enough.

I would imagine some harmless but incapacitating ability like gloom, lull or spellbind helps a lot too (all helminth-able). Does damage reflection abilities count as a kill if they kill each other? I forget but you can either use ability to make them fight each other, or a weapon modded to do little damage but giving radiation procs to do the same.

That wasnt the discussion though. This was about CC and AoE, at higher levels of power at that in order to curb that power instead of making seperate modes like 1999 (since for some odd reason that is different than adding another seperate mode?). It was also about how CC/AoE trivializes things. I dont see how failing extractor after extractor is trivializing anything, or adding pointless amounts of time to a mission for "success". Or how in the case of the mission posted, dashing into the rift is the same as CCing? Or how stealth+steal counts as CC in the case of Ivara.

Plus there are just as many, if not more excavation versions that will not succeed if you let extractors fail or try to complete it without kills. Bounties fail, fissures wont crack the relic, core excav requires you to protect atleast 1 extractor fully for instance, arbis wont reward essence since no drones will get killed etc. Yeah Ivara can potentially complete regular excav without killing, if enough carriers spawn for her to steal from and if the steal actually results in a battery being stolen. It is far from an effective solution though and not really something of immense power that trivializes the mode. The main point is you cant CC your way to completing excav, since all it does is halt progress, unlike void flood, rescue, spy and mobile, unless ran as fissures, where you have to collect reactant, which means mandatory killing.

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You made a claim, which I again quote above. I proved it wrong. That's how simple this is. You could've owned up to your mistake, learnt from it and we could have moved on. Instead, you show great immaturity, looking for an excuse trying to justify a stance you were wrong about, while trying to change the narrative. This trait of yours is likely stunting growth of knowledge and understanding, which is probably why you believe and share so many incorrect notions.

You were wrong again Ervin. You need to learn how to deal with it.

In relation to the subject of CC. And you end up posting an alert version of excav, not by CCing your way to completion, but self buffing. It's like going in there with Inaros and just standing there, claiming you CCed your way to success.

On 2023-09-09 at 3:56 PM, Silligoose said:

Btw you forgot Mobile Defense, Excavation, Hijack, Survival and some other mission types that can be completed with reliance on cc only

You clearly did not rely on CC only in the mission you used as an example. You succeeded the mission through passivity. And if you cant actually complete a single full extractor, it means you cant rely on CC, since there are several excavation versions that do not allow for failed exctractors, or requires you to kill in order to obtain the main reward of the mode.

[Silligoose]

On 2023-09-12 at 12:50 PM, SneakyErvin said:

In relation to the subject of CC. And you end up posting an alert version of excav, not by CCing your way to completion, but self buffing. It's like going in there with Inaros and just standing there, claiming you CCed your way to success.

You clearly did not rely on CC only in the mission you used as an example. You succeeded the mission through passivity. And if you cant actually complete a single full extractor, it means you cant rely on CC, since there are several excavation versions that do not allow for failed exctractors, or requires you to kill in order to obtain the main reward of the mode.

On 2023-09-10 at 12:04 PM, SneakyErvin said:

And claiming you can complete excavation without killing is hilarious! Do you have a magic trick up your sleeve to get carriers and their batteries to spawn without killing them or others? Did you mean interception perhaps? Which cant be completed without killing either.

You made a claim. I proved it wrong. That is how simple this is. The amount of time required to explain a very, very simple concept, which even some beginners should already know (and which you still choose to be ignorant of by choosing to dismiss factual evidence) indicates that there would be little value in attempting to discuss more complex concepts.

On 2023-09-11 at 7:03 PM, tabernacl said:

I'm going to comment on the title of the OP cuz too lazy to read through everyone's discussion. 

some perspective- so I started playing Warframe (originally) on console then pc back when the only prime frame in the game was Ember (and ofc Excalibur for founders). Back then I think the only alternative to core in the game was archwing iirc or archwing was added a bit after I started. Anyway, the first (major) thing to happen in Warframe was the Second Dream quest. Warframe was and I still believe peaked at that point cuz you were playing the game you enjoyed (core) and it filled players with hope that it could grow the game to a better state of content. So I think most players believed that Warframe was gonna be (core) Warframe which would grow to more (core) content for players to enjoy. But... if you've been watching dev streams for many years and paying attention to the studio over the years you might have started to realize that Steve (the former creative director) had no idea what to do with the game or what direction to go. So he was always stressed and I guess eventually didn't really have a passion for the game anymore so I guess moving to Soulframe was best for him. Anyway (again), since DE was kind of lost on what to do with the game they started trying out ideas aka (other game modes) At first, it wasn't a big deal cus the focus remained around (core) and the other stuff started getting tacked on. Unfortunately this mindset has taken the game down the tracks of all kinds of different game modes. 

So the game is at a point now where it's basically diluted and polluted with different game systems which are no longer optional, they've become canon and mandatory for 'progression'. Side note- (most of these other games/modes  were straight up ripped off from other games and slapped with a Warframe theme).  Core systems which is the 'bread and butter' are being left in the past with no improvements. I could do a bit of ranting about old warframes, damage systems and ai, but this won't do anything. I assume the game is just gonna stay on the path of shiny new toy/grind. Some players will enjoy it and some will think to themselves 'this isn't Warframe anymore'. Who knows.

2 cents or w/e. 

Thanks for sharing. I've not been around for as long as you, but upon my initial journey into Warframe back in 2019 I noticed some tendencies in the game, specifically the add-ons that weren't really fleshed out all that well. I think Archwing was my first big disappointment - I was genuinely excited for the Archwing experience... until I played it. It does seem as though DE goes to the add-on well more often in the last few years.

I do have to mention I was under the impression Steve had plans for an integrated space- and ground combat system brewing since inception and to me he seemed passionate about RJ, even if he didn't seem very passionate about the game overall and neglected certain aspects. Perhaps I let the sales pitch influence me too much.

I agree with the overall sentiment you've shared. Passion does seem to be absent and the team doesn't seem to know what to do for the most part. It actually seems as though the lack of passion is the reason the team doesn't know what to do and tries to add something new.

[Silligoose]

On 2023-09-11 at 4:54 PM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

With just this one line I think you've cleared the concept ad-perfection, great job!

Synthesising what you've just told me, it is what I had a hunch it would be; all the mechanics and feel you obtain from playing start chart, or a very large part of it at least.
Any deviation from this that doesn't feel like said base experience we play much more often and continuously which Warframe is built upon, like Duviri or Railjack, are not CW, despite having a lot of elements of it! Base Railjack was lesser CW due to the missions being more unique and ship-focused, whereas Corpus Railjack is a lot more like it, with a bit of taxi-ying around, which I don't like. Likewise the point you mentioned of Duviri is correct; being dubious, as it draws a lot from CW, but it's not CW exactly.
_{^{And yes I am the psychopath who's farming an incarnon adapter for each weapon variant, not many are left heheeee.}}

Fancy little Haiku-like segment you added there, pretty well blent-in with the rest of your point, but this would be Core Warframe for me, or for you too perhaps.

As kamisama mentioned, the core experience of the game changed over time as other "major gameplay" content was added, like Railjack, once again, which is presented pretty early on to the new players now. However, it does compose a fairly small part of the game despite having plentiful of nodes and the void-damned things that I am still against 4 years later: Ash & Oberon being part of it instead of free warframes the player could earn from playing the normal game as they used to. Oh, and Liches flying to their ships because yolo.

Basically, the truck* with the band and the bobble-head is the core experience for the newer players even if the vehicle itself is the majority of the thing, but for the people who has been sticking around for longer, these are all new little things that slowly but surely cover it, and maybe eventually make it almost invisible.
^{*That Scott never finished in his garage.}

With things being clearer now, I can understand what Silligoose is coming at, although its not like I didn't already.
Despite still thinking new and different content is exactly what the game needs instead of more of the same, I comprehend that fear of continuous drifting away in the search of the next jaw-dropping thing having the possibility of leaving a game with no clear identity behind, even if fun and entertained to play.
Warframe is supposedly about space ninjas, but only half of that statement is true to this day.

Even with that in mind, I reiterate what I said, Whispers in the Walls and 1999 are looking very in-line with Core Warframe, 1999 clearly not as much but in-mission wise it might still feel a lot like Warframe, we will have to see what else is besides playing as half-frames, but in due time.
_{Need to add that ar to my arsenal too...}

Free_Aetharus  explained it pretty and it seems you have a similar notion of core-Warframe as I do.

When looking at the landscape of gaming and titles that do well, that continue to be popular for years and years like DotA, PUBG, Diablo, PoE etc... these games simply continue to bring the same core gameplay year after year. Even yearly franchises do this, such as Fifa. Sure, gameplay can change a little over the years with updates/expansions/yearly releases, but the devs of these games see the core is popular, continue to build on it, continue to balance it and put in mechanics to keep the level of challenge dynamic, so various types of players can continue to enjoy it. 

That's where I suppose our views differ: I'd like to see the core being neglected less, given attention and being built upon, whilst it appears you believe a departure from that core may be what the game needs. Even though we may disagree, I appreciate your input.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You made a claim. I proved it wrong

Nope you didnt since you ignored what we discussed, which was you clearly pointing out relying only on CC. I shouldnt have to repeat what you said in the part that was quote just so you dont get confused over what you said. I shouldnt have to spell it out additionaly that this is about CC when it is already in the context of the quote used. That section of the quotes had been about CC for quite some time before that comment, so the context shouldnt really have a possibility to be missed or lost.

So you've provided no factual evidence, unless of course you come here to claim stealth, buffs to TTL or straight up immunity (rift) are considered CC to you. You also failed each objective for a horribly slow and unrewarding "success" outcome. Which is the exact opposite reason as to why CC and rebalancing of it was brought up in the first place. Like I said previously, if you had used CC, the mission wouldnt have moved forward. You neither CCed nor trivialized anything, you failed in order to succeed due to broken mission parameters for alerts.

And ontop of all that, you'll still fail the majority of Excav versions by not killing.

 

 

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

En 14/9/2023 a las 20:54, Silligoose dijo:

That's where I suppose our views differ: I'd like to see the core being neglected less, given attention and being built upon, whilst it appears you believe a departure from that core may be what the game needs. Even though we may disagree, I appreciate your input.

Maybe it isn't as different as you think.
While I have said that new and different content is (imo) the best breakaway from the regular mission grind the game is, constantly making new content that isn't part of the already present creates the phenomenon of content archipelago that so many people are upset about, and I am part of that crew, although to a lesser degree.

Most of the "core" modes are boring to me nowadays because I've done them a thousand times (perhaps literally), even though there are some which I don't get as bored of because I find them much more fun, like spy, hijack, disruption, certain assassinations, or interception.
There's also newer modes which are very neat like void flood or cascade, although cascade is way too hectic for me in solo since you gotta move far too often to rooms that are end-to-end of the map.

But do you know what I really like? Open Worlds and Railjack.
Both contain similar activities to that of the start chart and other much more enjoyable modes as part of their missions - open worlds mostly since they have more variety.
Railjack, on the other hand, is way "smaller" in that sense, with only two actual unique modes, Volatile and Skirmish, but I love the dynamic of having to be on your ship or boarding a close vessel to complete the objective, even if in the end all these missions are for the most part reused exterminates, sabotages or mobile defences on a smaller scale, but its thanks to them being together that it is more interesting than simply doing them by separate. It's "complete".

One of my favourite examples is disabling shield booster relays on Corpus Railjack, as it is a mobile defence, and an assassination!
But I do admit as to not liking Corpus Railjack because it is just copied start-chart missions with Railjack travelling between point A-B, making Railjack an extra rather than the main protagonist of the mode. Except Volatile, volatile is fantastic, though I would create a hardcore version of the mode.

 

What I mean by all of this is, I am disappointed that DE created such amazing expansions to the game, but moved on from them so soon.
I still want a major Railjack expansion that allows us to go underwater in Uranus, or visit infested vessel proximas, or even active Murex zones!
Like, heck, they made sentient aircrafts but outside of the adventures you cannot fight them!

Likewise, I wanted Narmer to have a much more deep and notorious influx on the game in general instead of being "another higher level of bounty you can pick" on Fortuna and Cetus. They were the first faction in years to introduce a new hacking method and you're telling me I basically don't get to do spy missions anywhere but the Vallis. That's a waste!

Point is, I too want to see the "core" of the game being built upon, but the base-core (pre-open worlds) is not enough on its own if expanded to make the game all that interesting, to me. Reinjecting the modern-core game towards the base-core is what I think would work best, hence why future content like Whispers in the wall being tied to Deimos (modern-core) is something I find to be a great decision by the team, or why I'd like Railjack & Open worlds to have more severe expansions.

Basically, I'd want a middle ground between the good & well established things of the past, and the possibilities of the future.
My question now is, what would you like to see as expansion for core warframe? Do you have any ideas or leads as to what would you like to do?