PSA PSA: Heirloom Collection Platinum Changes & Lessons

[Voltage]

13 hours ago, Lion said:

Unfortunately, all of fixes that have been proposed so far will objectively worsen the transaction in some way, there's no way around it. 

- Removing the exclusivity ruins it for people who bought it for exclusivity. 

-Adding a cheaper pack so soon screws over the people who already paid $90 and can't refund for the cheaper pack. Most retailers and a lot of credit cards for example have price protection if a product goes on sale within a certain window after buying, to prevent this kind of situation. This would not be available for something like warframe. I enjoy the pack and I'm perfectly happy with the price I paid, that is until a cheaper option becomes available less than a month later. I probably wouldn't mind as much if it went on sale during it's last week or something though. 

I'm speaking from the perspective of the bigger picture. I overpayed for the Zenith collection and only bought this for exclusivity. I'm in both camps that you listed. You're totally right, but just like dozens of changes in the past, DE absolutely has no issue benefitting 95% at the cost of the other 5%. Here though, this isn't about a couple hardcore players, but the goodwill of many players from all corners of the game. I would gladly accept them changing this pack if it meant holding true to their practices of the past. The continuation of this behavior is worse for those who would lose out today. I crafted all my Plains of Eidolon Arcanes, I reached top 50 in Pacifism Defect to get my clan Ignis Wraith, and I farm almost all updates before they are made more trivial for players to catch up. The amount of hours that has been undermined over the course of my playtime far exceeds the value of the Zenith Pack. This really doesn't bother me as a point of concern anymore if they religiously do it anyways. Just do it now to do the right thing and move on; it's already bad enough that this is a repeated mistake to begin with.

One of the reasons I still play Warframe even after years of decisions I do not agree with and me outliving multiple "generations" of Warframe friends is because other multiplayer games are chalk full of similar packs or mechanics similar in nature. Between battle passes, Founder Packs, and exclusive purchases, I see no reason to get into a game unless I'm starting early on in the game's life cycle and I'm committed to being around through updates. An example of this practice turning me away was Wayfinder. Their monetization and Founders Pack + "Premium" Battle Passes turned me off completely. This is where Warframe is slowly going. I will likely stick around because it's easy in my position to stay updated with the game, but if I had discovered Warframe in 2020, I probably wouldn't have bothered.

A major disappointment with this game is how many things are unattainable simply because your account isn't old enough. For a game that boasts "FashionFrame is endgame" and accessibility, this kind of behavior is simply disappointing if you are old enough to know where these points of praise originated from.

As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Voltage

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 7 horas, Slayer-. dijo:

It just seems so simple and basic in my mind to do a skins only pack, how hard is it to keep what's there now and do skins only, it would appease everyone.

It's simple, basic, and player response has been the same every time DE adds a new bundle without a cosmetics only option yet for some weird reason they keep doing the exact same (while saying that they listen to the community or talk about learning from past mistakes) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Slayer-.]

8 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is literally what we had with the New War Supporter packs. Cash bundles with plat and a few small exclusives like a Glyph, and plat bundles on the market for just the skins. If DE just kept doing the obvious, successful thing they had already been doing none of us would be here talking about it.

Exactly.

50 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

It's simple, basic, and player response has been the same every time DE adds a new bundle without a cosmetics only option yet for some weird reason they keep doing the exact same (while saying that they listen to the community or talk about learning from past mistakes) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I  why they keep doing it, does not make sense.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

59 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

It's simple, basic, and player response has been the same every time DE adds a new bundle without a cosmetics only option yet for some weird reason they keep doing the exact same (while saying that they listen to the community or talk about learning from past mistakes) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yet they never do there just like the bp oil company from southpark they mess up and say (were sorry) and make the same mistakes again and again without thinking or reasoning before they make the next decision

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

9 hours ago, Lion said:

I mean honestly to me this is like getting mad about limited editions or preorder bonuses or something equally irrelevant. People get so mad about FOMO like its the company that gave them FOMO and not an unresolved psychological compulsion that they themselves are responsible for. 10 years ago FOMO was just a cute twitter hashtag now people are treating ANYTHING that's limited time like a cardinal sin - like things aren't allowed to be limited anymore.  FOMO isn't something that DE gave you, and simply making something limited time isn't giving you FOMO - you already had it. 

I've never felt compelled or forced to buy anything, the only things I bought were things I wanted and was able to afford. There's been times where something I really wanted was too expensive and I said "oh well I can't get this" and moved on. Yes they technically could offer this forever (or at least until the game shuts down) but they chose not to, and that's that.

I said it before the most ideal scenario would've been launching with a cheaper pack, but that ship has sailed as we are now past launch, I think that at this point just biding their time is the best course of action they can take, as they are choosing to protect people who have already paid vs cater to people who probably still wouldn't pay even if the pack was like $50.

at this point its not even about Fomo

Its about trust

This is what happens when you disrespect the special few that trust you

And without trust there is no respect, no safety, no care

ITS GONE

 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

21 hours ago, DogsConkers said:

Meanwhile Rockstar celebrates their 10 year anniversary of GTA 5 by giving away clothing, weapon finishes and other bonuses to their community for free!

DE *DID* give away "free clothing, weapons, and other bonuses" for their 10 year anniversary.  In fact, we had a whole 10 WEEKS in-game of special events doing exactly that, via GotL Alerts, Recall: Ten Zero alerts, etc, plus drops on Twitch and so on.  Not to mention Dex Operator/Drifter cosmetics, which were also FREE.

14 hours ago, Stafelund said:

If that's the case, seems like DE sadly missed the point of what made Founders special?

Very surprising. I've always thought of Rockstar as nothing ever since they did those remastered editions and removing the original versions of this game, plus all the GTA V online shenanigans. I'm glad DE hasn't done anything yet similar to Rockstar and haven't heard of anything happening in Warframe like in GTA V, that frightening exploit from the start of this year was quite something.

I agree with this. I'm actually saying that it's easy to fall down that way of thinking because of cognitive bias.

"If that's the case, .....blahblahblah",  Like, this whole post of yours, and many others from other posters on this thread, are just taking strawmen and running with them as if they're FACTS when they're simply NOT.

Opinions? Sure.  Facts, though? Nope.

It's fine not to like something. It's fine to think something is too expensive, bundled poorly, etc... but those are OPINIONS. And some of y'all really have issues separating SUBJECTIVE reality from OBJECTIVE reality.

Moreover, you're just pushing this false libel for DOZENS of pages on this thread, all based on "Well, if RANDOMPOSTER1019493 SAY SO, then it MUST BE SO! and that's TERRIBLE OF DE!!" etc...   Like, can y'all just stick to facts and stop with the dev-bashing?  (which, btw, is against the forum guidelines to begin with)

12 hours ago, Lion said:

I mean honestly to me this is like getting mad about limited editions or preorder bonuses or something equally irrelevant. People get so mad about FOMO like its the company that gave them FOMO and not an unresolved psychological compulsion that they themselves are responsible for. 10 years ago FOMO was just a cute twitter hashtag now people are treating ANYTHING that's limited time like a cardinal sin - like things aren't allowed to be limited anymore.  FOMO isn't something that DE gave you, and simply making something limited time isn't giving you FOMO - you already had it. 

I've never felt compelled or forced to buy anything, the only things I bought were things I wanted and was able to afford. There's been times where something I really wanted was too expensive and I said "oh well I can't get this" and moved on. Yes they technically could offer this forever (or at least until the game shuts down) but they chose not to, and that's that.

I said it before the most ideal scenario would've been launching with a cheaper pack, but that ship has sailed as we are now past launch, I think that at this point just biding their time is the best course of action they can take, as they are choosing to protect people who have already paid vs cater to people who probably still wouldn't pay even if the pack was like $50.

THIS ^^^   And honestly, regarding the whole "the pack could be cheaper" thing...  it's SO EASY for these random keyboard warriors to come on here and CLAIM "Oh, if only DE would do x, I'd DEFINITELY buy it then!" without any need to COMMIT to that statement, though.   Not to mention, as you said, Lion...  They could lower it to $50, you'd have peeps still having 100+ pages of "IT SHOULD BE $30!", and then $30 leads to "IT SHOULD BE $15!" etc.

That's all this thread has been!  It should've been titled "I have ZERO information behind-the-scenes of what this costs DE, and what their agreements and timelines are based on, but I DEMAND it be changed to *arbitrary number according to my individual wallet*, because fReEDoM!", because that's ALL it is!

We address one issue, and it'll be "Nu uh! It's not THIS, it's actually THAT!", and the goalposts shift again.   DE gives everything away, has ONE pack that they're like "Ya know what?  We have some HUGE stuff on the horizon, and the Cost of Living has risen dramatically!  Maybe we should do this one special thing and push for a bigger pricetag.  Even toss some MORE stuff in it to really give them their money's worth!  We need to fundraise the future of this game!" 

And boom.  Drama. HYPERBOLE OUT THE VOID around here! O_O  "IT'S THE END OF WARFRAME!  I'll NEVER PLAY AGAIN!" etc.  Good grief, it's so juvenile o-o

12 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

It just seems so simple and basic in my mind to do a skins only pack, how hard is it to keep what's there now and do skins only, it would appease everyone.

See: Dunning-Kruger.     And I honestly don't mean that as an insult...  but it's genuinely what's been happening here for 88+ pages now...  people "Don't see why x couldn't work", yet those same people DON'T have ANY of the info that DE has on sales numbers, costs of business, projections per quarter, demands from management, contracts with outside artists commissioned, etc.

The vast majority of people on these forums are likely NOT devs, and certainly do not work at DE, and yet proclaim to know BETTER than DE how DE could and should work.

That is not only audacious, but just... absurd, really.

11 hours ago, Lion said:

IMO limited time marketing is just marketing, and there is little to no room for ethics in it. The whole essence of marketing is to try and convince you to trade your money for useless products you don't need and are never going to need, and there's no tool more effective than limited time offers. I don't judge them for it, it is what it is. You either buy it and are done with it, or say no and move on. Marketing is designed to pressure you, so why are we mad about it doing exactly what it's designed for?

^ This, again.  There is, as I mentioned before, a SEVERE lack of understanding of how businesses work shown here on this forum.

And that'd normally be fine, as it is not a requirement for one to be able to access this forum, either...  but then the Dunning-Kruger takes over, like I mentioned, and suddenly "Jimmy who plays games sometimes after school/work and maybe has a degree in engineering or whatnot" is suddenly an "EXPERT" on all things to do with DE's business model, including all numbers behind the scenes..   And worse still is the entitlement that accompanies it.

It'd almost be funny in how childish it is, save for how pervasive such a mindset has become, and thus how damaging it ends up being.

I mean, make no mistake, I'm not capitalism fanboy by ANY stretch, but I DO recognize that DE is just a business run by people who are living UNDER that system, and thus, need to run their business accordingly, lest they become unable to afford what they need in life.

These people on the forums don't seem to be able to understand basics like "Just because the business has large GROSS REVENUE does NOT mean they have large NET PROFITS, much LESS does it indicate what the WORKERS AT said company can afford."

But im sure they'll just tear this comment of mine apart, too, with ad homs and hyperbolic hot air.

3 hours ago, Stormhawkaro said:

It's simple, basic, and player response has been the same every time DE adds a new bundle without a cosmetics only option yet for some weird reason they keep doing the exact same (while saying that they listen to the community or talk about learning from past mistakes) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For "some weird reason", it's been working for them for 10+ years, even LONGER if you look at DE outside of Warframe...

Gee, it's almost like... the business knows how to run itself, and the NON-business consumers don't know everything that DE does :O

Crazy, that, yeah?

by the by, just because YOU label something in the past a "mistake" does not make it objectively true.  And no, some people on the forums agreeing with your opinions does not make them any more objective.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

Yet they never do there just like the bp oil company from southpark they mess up and say (were sorry) and make the same mistakes again and again without thinking or reasoning before they make the next decision

....Can you comment anything that ISN'T hyperbole?  Like, dude.. this is such a blow-out-of-proportion, overly dramatic take on something so simple as "Oh, that's expensive. I can't afford it. Bummer. AT LEAST IT DOESNT AFFECT MY GAMEPLAY AT ALL", comparing it to BP OIL and their terrible oil spills that destroyed tons of ecology....  

It's just mind-blowing to think people might actually believe the crap they type.  I cannot fathom that you take yourself or this topic THAT seriously.

They are SKINS.  Yes, there are things in the pack other than skins. That's what's being offered.  That's what's for dinner, so to speak.  Ya don't gotta buy it to play.  It isn't blocking you from enjoying ANY of the game's gameplay or areas or anything.  It's just TWO skins of HUNDREDS that you simply won't have.  That's ALL.

Get over yourselves, and seriously get a grip O_O

This isn't me or anyone else "white knighting"... this is just sensible people putting their foot down and telling y'all to snap back to reality. You're not some soap opera characters, good grief.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

39 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

 

....Can you comment anything that ISN'T hyperbole?  Like, dude.. this is such a blow-out-of-proportion, overly dramatic take on something so simple as "Oh, that's expensive. I can't afford it. Bummer. AT LEAST IT DOESNT AFFECT MY GAMEPLAY AT ALL", comparing it to BP OIL and their terrible oil spills that destroyed tons of ecology....  
 

Bud I was talking about a southpark episode if you didn't read what I sead is its like the episode where the bp oil guy did somthing terrible and his solution was to go (were sorry) basically what there doing hear they forgot about a massive portion of there supporters and didn't think of making a 4th pack for the people that love the game but can't afford 90 dollars and there (were sorry) was to add a bit more platinum to the pack instead of re evaluating the situation and creating a 4th pack for the people that eather can't afford the 90 dollar version or really dont want the platinum and regal aya

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by (XBOX)toughdragon17
Typo

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 21 minutos, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

See: Dunning-Kruger.

Pots and kettles or something along those lines.

hace 24 minutos, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

For "some weird reason", it's been working for them for 10+ years, even LONGER if you look at DE outside of Warframe...

Gee, it's almost like... the business knows how to run itself, and the NON-business consumers don't know everything that DE does :O

Crazy, that, yeah?

by the by, just because YOU label something in the past a "mistake" does not make it objectively true.  And no, some people on the forums agreeing with your opinions does not make them any more objective.

Not sure if you lack reading comprehension, Dunning-Kruger applies perfectly to you or both:

Yes, DE knows how to run the business and that's why in several occasions -already mentioned before- they ended up adding a cheaper bundle with cosmetics only due to player feedback (fun enough, most of the warframe we know today was built on player feedback during warframe's early years)

The weird thing is how -despite listening to such player feedback several times already- they keep doing the same mistake of making new collections without a cheaper cosmetics bundle right from their first implementation; that's not a big deal in most stuff since pretty much everything is bound to come back at some point unless stated otherwise.

And yes, once again, this bundle being both, bloated with stuff players may not want AND containing items which are stated to never come back is the main reason for the fuss about Heirloom collections.

[Stafelund]

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

It's fine not to like something. It's fine to think something is too expensive, bundled poorly, etc... but those are OPINIONS. And some of y'all really have issues separating SUBJECTIVE reality from OBJECTIVE reality.

Moreover, you're just pushing this false libel for DOZENS of pages on this thread, all based on "Well, if RANDOMPOSTER1019493 SAY SO, then it MUST BE SO! and that's TERRIBLE OF DE!!" etc...   Like, can y'all just stick to facts and stop with the dev-bashing? 

Despite what you said in your last sentence, you're pretty much white-knighting blindly at this point. Mentioning DE =/= Dev bashing. I didn't once blame the devs for this decision, I am blaming the company as a whole, with valid criticism. Also, Jesus, think for yourself. Even if they are opinions, it doesn't change that there's facts behind those. Go ask a psychologist or someone who specializes in the business. Unlike the founders pack, which has a deep meaning and reason behind it, the Heirloom packs, this whole thing is FOMO which is worsened by the unwanted currency. Which is something you don't seem to bring up (and didn't bring up here, funnily). Ask a marketing expert on this for a honest opinion? They'll say that this appeals to the customers' emotions/psychologically. Same with psychologists, they'll spot that the FOMO is meant to entice certain thoughts from a consumer.

It's exploitative because it tries to pull on compulsiveness of people. Just look at these: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8283615/#:~:text=Fear of missing out (FoMO,to maintain these social connections.

https://medium.com/@milijanakomad/product-design-and-psychology-the-exploitation-of-fear-of-missing-out-fomo-in-video-game-design-5b15a8df6cda

https://medium.com/@milijanakomad/product-cases-psycho-manipulation-techniques-in-gaming-8ee351dc9c04

The first one is FOMO in general, not just games. But they all focus on one thing: Compulsion. It's worse in this case, because it's compulsion AND money. Mentally, and financially exploitative. The last link even mentions things of what the Heirloom packs are guilty of at #2. It's manipulation, like it or not, no ifs, and no buts about it.

You want facts? You got it. Now, since you're keen on blindly protecting such practice, I'm gonna want you to elaborate on what makes this justified other than being a blatant FOMO product. The Founders pack was a last ditch effort and was made to value the people who used their resources to cement the game's future and to make it available for today. So what's this pack's excuse?

Edited September 17, 2023 by Stafelund
added stuff about founders pack and link

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

...basically what there doing hear they forgot about a massive portion of there supporters and didn't think of making a 4th pack for the people that love the game but can't afford 90 dollars and there (were sorry) was to add a bit more platinum to the pack instead of re evaluating the situation and creating a 4th pack for the people that eather can't afford the 90 dollar version or really dont want the platinum and regal aya

 

"They totally did this exact thing, with these exact intentions, and made these specific mistakes based on my.... complete lack of evidence.  But just trust me, bro... trust me. It's totally, exactly how things definitely went down.  I mean, just look at all of these, like, 10 people complaining... out of 10's of MILLIONS!  Clearly, less than 0.0001% of the playerbase is a sIGnIfiCAnT AmOUnT!   Source: "Trust ME"!"

Y'all keep making these claims, but the only thing you've put up is hyperbole, anecdote, and opinions, thus far....

I've yet to see any wrongdoing here.  DE made a package of THEIR products/services.  They set a price.  That price is fine for some, too high for others. The end.

There's no "disrespect".  There's no "mistake".   Just because YOU cannot afford it (and to be clear, I can't either), doesn't make it a "mistake".

DE HAS the data. They KNOW the ROI of their marketing and sales.  They perfectly well what they can and should expect from this package sale, and clearly are fine with it since they DID exactly that.

YOU don't like it... but that doesn't make it a "mistake".

[Stafelund]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

I've yet to see any wrongdoing here.  DE made a package of THEIR products/services.  They set a price.  That price is fine for some, too high for others. The end.

I've yet to see you address the FOMO nature of the pack. And uh, isn't most of your posts opinions and conjecture too?

5 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

DE HAS the data. They KNOW the ROI of their marketing and sales.  They perfectly well what they can and should expect from this package sale, and clearly are fine with it since they DID exactly that.

You don't work for DE, and this is pretty much baseless. If they know their data, then they must be always have it perfect on all ingame products they implement and surely, they won't change the Prime Access and Regal Aya from years ago. Ironically this is also an opinion and conjecture, since we don't even know what DE sees in the first place. I hope you're not really being shortsighted here.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

11 hours ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Pots and kettles or something along those lines.

Not sure if you lack reading comprehension, Dunning-Kruger applies perfectly to you or both:

Yes, DE knows how to run the business and that's why in several occasions -already mentioned before- they ended up adding a cheaper bundle with cosmetics only due to player feedback (fun enough, most of the warframe we know today was built on player feedback during warframe's early years)

The weird thing is how -despite listening to such player feedback several times already- they keep doing the same mistake of making new collections without a cheaper cosmetics bundle right from their first implementation; that's not a big deal in most stuff since pretty much everything is bound to come back at some point unless stated otherwise.

And yes, once again, this bundle being both, bloated with stuff players may not want AND containing items which are stated to never come back is the main reason for the fuss about Heirloom collections.

1, I don't think you understand what Dunning-Kruger is if you're just going to toss it back at me.  I'm using it to describe those who, without credentials or merit, have cast accusations and judgements, not to mention insisting that "it's as easy as x", at DE regarding DE's decisions in how they run their game (which DE has done, successfully, for over 10+ years, not to mention they've been in the dev business for 30+ years).

Definition, in case you don't know: The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

Unlike those mentioned above, I was NOT criticizing game devs for their game dev work, nor any other experts in their fields about their fields of work/study... unless y'all think you're "professional critics", in which case we're gonna need to see some credentials :P 

ON that note, I DO have quite an extensive history of experience in running businesses, and all that comes with that, such as understanding marketing, ROI, projections, etc.  Now, obviously I'm not going to give out my IRL identity, as that is both unsafe AND against forum guidelines, so I suppose you'll just have to trust me on that (and I don't expect anyone to), but then again, as I said, I'm not the one levying accusations and insisting my opinions are worth more than actual professionals' experience/knowledge.

2. You have yet to cite ACTUAL SOURCES regarding this claim that DE made specific market decisions "ONLY DUE TO" player feedback... and I'd wager that is due, in large part, because there IS no such source...  All you have is the limited words from forum posts or devstream clips, wherein devs might mention that they observe some feedback, and include that feedback in their decision-making processes, but never have they said "We made these decisions ONLY based on what random players have demanded! and with NO other professional input from our actual staff who do this for a living!"

DE even STATED, on SEVERAL occasions, that whilst they DO listen to player feedback, and *TAKE IT INTO CONSIDERATION*, they do not simply heed to the demands of those screaming on the forums about "WE WANT! WE WANT!"

They mentioned as much when they made the change to Regal Aya to include platinum..  that they were making this change based on "The CONSTRUCTIVE feedback", but that it was in NO part due to those who just shout and scream.

You see, "feedback" isn't just making demands or shouting "I don't like it!".   Any toddler can do those things and achieve nothing.  CONSTRUCTIVE Feedback, which is what DE asks for and welcomes, is about providing insight into perceived issues, providing constructive criticism therein, and proposing positive solutions regarding said issues...  not just "Do better!  I AM DISAPPOINT! >:( "

It certainly doesn't help, in this case, to just run around saying "I don't like this! Make it cheaper!  Take this out!"

I worked in the entertainment industry for 20+ years.... let me tell you how many customers I had to deal with that thought they could just whittle down my price because "Well, we don't need this part of the show, or this.. and we could change this, and ...."

Not how it works, bub.  If you want to custom create a show, you're welcome to your own...  This is mine, and that's my fee.

This is no different with DE and their digital goods/services.  Y'all really need to wise up to that, truly.  Just because you DEMAND something does not mean that said "something" is going to happen, SHOULD happen, or is viable for the other party involved (DE). 

 

11 hours ago, Stafelund said:

Despite what you said in your last sentence, you're pretty much white-knighting blindly at this point. Mentioning DE =/= Dev bashing. I didn't once blame the devs for this decision, I am blaming the company as a whole, with valid criticism. Also, Jesus, think for yourself. Even if they are opinions, it doesn't change that there's facts behind those. Go ask a psychologist or someone who specializes in the business. Unlike the founders pack, which has a deep meaning and reason behind it, the Heirloom packs, this whole thing is FOMO which is worsened by the unwanted currency. Which is something you don't seem to bring up (and didn't bring up here, funnily). Ask a marketing expert on this for a honest opinion? They'll say that this appeals to the customers' emotions/psychologically. Same with psychologists, they'll spot that the FOMO is meant to entice certain thoughts from a consumer.

It's exploitative because it tries to pull on compulsiveness of people. Just look at these: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8283615/#:~:text=Fear of missing out (FoMO,to maintain these social connections.

https://medium.com/@milijanakomad/product-design-and-psychology-the-exploitation-of-fear-of-missing-out-fomo-in-video-game-design-5b15a8df6cda

https://medium.com/@milijanakomad/product-cases-psycho-manipulation-techniques-in-gaming-8ee351dc9c04

The first one is FOMO in general, not just games. But they all focus on one thing: Compulsion. It's worse in this case, because it's compulsion AND money. Mentally, and financially exploitative. The last link even mentions things of what the Heirloom packs are guilty of at #2. It's manipulation, like it or not, no ifs, and no buts about it.

You want facts? You got it. Now, since you're keen on blindly protecting such practice, I'm gonna want you to elaborate on what makes this justified other than being a blatant FOMO product. The Founders pack was a last ditch effort and was made to value the people who used their resources to cement the game's future and to make it available for today. So what's this pack's excuse?

Bud, for the thousandth time, I'm NOT "blindly" saying a damned thing.  I'm quite aware of what "FOMO" is, and quite familiar with how psychology is applied to sales.

What I think YOU don't seem to understand yet, though, is that it's *irrelevant* to this topic, because what you have yet to grasp is that ALL CAPITALISM IS EXPLOITATIVE.

That's literally how it WORKS.  You don't "need" 95% of the crap you buy. Hell, ya don't "need" to play this game!  Or ANY game, for that matter.  It's all a "waste of productive potential time spent", if you want to be technical.

DE isn't doing a damned thing here that literally EVERY other company in ANY industrialized nation with a Capitalist economic system does.

And this has been EXPLAINED to you SEVERAL times now, by multiple posters here, mind you...  So before you criticize ME for "failing to read", ya might want to do some work on yourself, yeah?

There is not one thing about Warframe that is remotely "essential" to your daily life.  Yes, some people enjoy it, and it means a lot of things to a lot of players, but it's not a life essential.

And given that it's running on one of the fairest F2P models out there, it RELIES on SOLID MARKETING and IN-GAME "psychological practices", as you might call them, to keep people playing and incentivize purchases....  otherwise, they'd have 300+ people unemployed by week's end.

I'm not "white knighting", I'm simply stating facts. ACTUAL facts, not whatever crap y'all keep trying to shove in this thread to disguise your temper tantrums and ego-fueled rants.

The Founder's Pack existed to fundraise directly from crowd-funding, as opposed to the typical route which was going to investors and publishers.

The Heirloom Pack, and honestly ALL of DE's large purchase packs, such as Prime Access, etc, exist for EXACTLY the same reason.

You all demand "MORE" from DE, and yet when they don't get it to you "fast enough", y'all cry about that TOO.   So, to fuel "FASTER" development, that means they need MORE money TODAY, not "when enough of you decide to buy some Tennogen".

Thus, they put a deadline on things.  There's literally NOTHING wrong with that.

--- Now, if DE had done this with, say, ACTUAL ITEMS that you REQUIRE in-game to progress, such as weapons, a new frame, etc... or anything that actually KEPT players from taking part in some important or necessary in-game activity or communal activity without paying an exorbitant fee... I MIGHT agree with you more then.

but that simply isn't what's happening.  It's 1 set of skins, and some other extra content, NONE of which has ANY effect on gameplay of the purchaser NOR any other Tenno whatsoever.

LEAST of all is the accolade.  ROFL, like...  I've been playing this game for YEEEEARS, and I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've ever bothered to look for/at an accolade on a profile...  hell, I barely check profiles at all.  I'm much more concerned with what's happening in the missions and chat windows etc.

You want to criticize predatory business practices?  I'm all for it.  Capitalism, itself? Greed?  I'm right there with you, bud.  But this?  This ain't it, chief.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

41 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

There's no "disrespect".  There's no "mistake".   Just because YOU cannot afford it (and to be clear, I can't either), doesn't make it a "mistake".

DE HAS the data. They KNOW the ROI of their marketing and sales.  They perfectly well what they can and should expect from this package sale, and clearly are fine with it since they DID exactly that.
.

First Bud there's a ton of disrespect hear if you can't see it thats on you 

Second I can easily afford the pack worth 90 dollars i choose not to because of how they handled not caring about the loyal fans who can't afford the pack 

Third if they know there marketing so well why didn't they see that a 4th pack only holding the skins and cosmetics for 25 to 30 dollars would be extremely profitable seeing as there are a good amount of people that can't afford the skins and or just don't want the platinum and regal aya 

 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

11 hours ago, Stafelund said:

I've yet to see you address the FOMO nature of the pack. And uh, isn't most of your posts opinions and conjecture too?

You don't work for DE, and this is pretty much baseless. If they know their data, then they must be always have it perfect on all ingame products they implement and surely, they won't change the Prime Access and Regal Aya from years ago. Ironically this is also an opinion and conjecture, since we don't even know what DE sees in the first place. I hope you're not really being shortsighted here.

You're really not accomplishing what you think you are here, friend.

You're taking small little clips of my (probably too) lengthy posts, and trying to pick apart specific words to spin the meaning of my entire point... rather than addressing the point itself.

I provided you the specific definition for Dunning-Kruger, right there, clear as day on screen, and yet STILL you reply like you have, completely disregarding that definition, and pushing forward with this hyperbolic nonsense.

I NEVER said that ALL opinions are pointless. I never said that nobody should HAVE opinions here, either.  So you're misrepresenting my argument to INTENTIONALLY try and demerit it, rather than actually considering it and engaging with it honestly.  In psychology, since you're so fond of it, we call this Logical Fallacy a STRAWMAN...  and it's a hallmark of bad-faith arguments.

re: Prime Access, Regal Aya, etc... I already addressed those, too, in my previous replies... but you moved right on passed them, as well...  Convenient, eh?

Again, never said that one cannot, or even should not, criticize DE or other devs/publishers based on their opinions of a specific business practice or offering...

Just that one should never be taking the stance of arguing that they *KNOW* what's "better for" said developers/publishers, than said devs/pubs do themselves.... based solely ON said emotions/opinions, when lacking relevant credentials.

I literally cannot express this any clearer.  If, at this point, you are not comprehending what I'm laying out here... you're either choosing to remain ignorant on the topic, truly unable to understand it, or intentionally misrepresenting my stance (and plenty of others') to try and push your own points/agendas in bad faith.

Quite honestly, I don't see how that ISN'T a blatant violation of the Forum Guidelines, much less how this topic isn't locked by now, but I suppose the Forum Mods have their reasons... after all, THEY are the pros at that, not me...  see how that works?  Deferring to the actual expe- aaah, nvm

 

10 hours ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

First Bud there's a ton of disrespect hear if you can't see it thats on you 

Second I can easily afford the pack worth 90 dollars i choose not to because of how they handled not caring about the loyal fans who can't afford the pack 

Third if they know there marketing so well why didn't they see that a 4th pack only holding the skins and cosmetics for 25 to 30 dollars would be extremely profitable seeing as there are a good amount of people that can't afford the skins and or just don't want the platinum and regal aya 

 

1, You keep INSISTING there is malintent, but have yet to provide any proof other than "trust me, bro"... as I've stated several times, now.  You repeating this does not change that.

2a. You INSIST they "do not care" without any evidence to back up that this is their actual stance.  Yet, there IS actual evidence, and plenty of it, to the contrary.  Hell, just look at DE Megan's response, to begin with! 

2b, The entire foundation of your argument here is absurd to begin with!  You're claiming that DE pricing their pack as-is, is simply "disrespectful and inconsiderate to all fans who cannot afford it".  If you were to take this claim at face value, then you're insinuating that ALL products that DE sells, every SINGLE ONE, that costs ANYTHING, is "disrespectful to loyal fans", since the game, itself, as well as all necessary content for progression therein, are FREE, and as such have no barriers-to-entry for players who have NO income.

Thus, it is quite likely, and reasonable to assume, that there are many players who meet this criteria.  And it is not unfair to assume, as well, that they can certainly be "loyal players", no doubt.

So, by your own words, would DE putting up a pack at $40 not be equally as "disrespectful" to them?  Unfair?  $30?  $10?  $1?  After all, if they have NO income, then that bars those players, however "loyal" you deem them to be, from accessing said content.  I mean, those are your own words above, are they not?

And obviously, such an argument would be ABSOLUTELY ABSURD, as it would deny DE the ability to charge ANY money AT ALL for content within their game/services, lest they be criticized as "disrespectful to players"....   and, hopefully I don't need to inform you on why that wouldn't work for a business. ANY business.

I mean, Rebb said it perfectly well, and I believe it's been quoted quite frequently right here IN THIS VERY THREAD, no less, that though DE values the feedback players provide, and understands that players are GREAT at describing when something "doesn't feel right", they still ALSO understand that players DO NOT always have the capability to provide actually productive or reasonable solutions!

I mean, she's spot on.  The customer is NOT always right.  The customer is the CONSUMER of the goods, but does no necessarily possess all of the knowledge and experience necessary to PRODUCE said goods.

I can have a car, but not have a clue about how to build it.  I can live in a home without knowing a thing about construction. I can use my sink, but not be a plumber.  I can turn on my lights, but not be an electrician.  

I mean, the device you're using to reply to these posts RIGHT NOW is probably something you couldn't just rebuild from scratch, even if given all relevant parts, no?  But you still USE it... you still understand how to CONSUME through it.

Same goes for devs vs players.

[Slayer-.]

  

21 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

We could have saved 88 pages of butthurt on both sides if DE had just put out a skins only pack without the bloat, the bloat can stay in the other pack just for players who would like some Regal Aya and top up their platinum, the skins came along for the journey.

^

15 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

It just seems so simple and basic in my mind to do a skins only pack, how hard is it to keep what's there now and do skins only, it would appease everyone.

Players will still buy either pack they like if it suits them. ^{[yes yes I'm replying to my post just pointing it out]}

2 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

snip/

See: Dunning-Kruger.     And I honestly don't mean that as an insult...  but it's genuinely what's been happening here for 88+ pages now...  people "Don't see why x couldn't work", yet those same people DON'T have ANY of the info that DE has on sales numbers, costs of business, projections per quarter, demands from management, contracts with outside artists commissioned, etc.

The vast majority of people on these forums are likely NOT devs, and certainly do not work at DE, and yet proclaim to know BETTER than DE how DE could and should work.

That is not only audacious, but just... absurd, really.

snip/

I actually bought the top pack in the first couple of days before DE added extras because I liked it for what was in it, I don't care for the players who are rubbing it in the faces of other players according to some, I'm too old for that crap and never would in the first place, so I don't see why I should get harassed in the future for buying it, I haven't come across any negativity towards me in the game so players are fine and just like me and want to play, some posts in this thread threatening violence and harassment, and blacklisting players like the Limbo dribble saga are pathetic, those posts were removed by a mod if you go looking.

I haven't taken a solid stand for either party because it's not about sides, if you want it you'll buy it, I don't care about the FOMO I liked the skins and I liked the Regal Aya and Plat was nice as well.

My above quotes should be standard you'd think, if DE put out a no-frills pack with only skins more people would buy it, well you'd think they would which would be bonus money for DE.

I'm a simple person who's lived in tough times of life and just wants to play a game I really like with over 8800+ hours ingame 2026 login days.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Slayer-.
typo

[Stafelund]

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Bud, for the thousandth time, I'm NOT "blindly" saying a damned thing.  I'm quite aware of what "FOMO" is, and quite familiar with how psychology is applied to sales.

What I think YOU don't seem to understand yet, though, is that it's *irrelevant* to this topic, because what you have yet to grasp is that ALL CAPITALISM IS EXPLOITATIVE.

That's literally how it WORKS.  You don't "need" 95% of the crap you buy. Hell, ya don't "need" to play this game!  Or ANY game, for that matter.  It's all a "waste of productive potential time spent", if you want to be technical.

DE isn't doing a damned thing here that literally EVERY other company in ANY industrialized nation with a Capitalist economic system does.

And this has been EXPLAINED to you SEVERAL times now, by multiple posters here, mind you...  So before you criticize ME for "failing to read", ya might want to do some work on yourself, yeah?

There is not one thing about Warframe that is remotely "essential" to your daily life.  Yes, some people enjoy it, and it means a lot of things to a lot of players, but it's not a life essential.

And given that it's running on one of the fairest F2P models out there, it RELIES on SOLID MARKETING and IN-GAME "psychological practices", as you might call them, to keep people playing and incentivize purchases....  otherwise, they'd have 300+ people unemployed by week's end.

I'm not "white knighting", I'm simply stating facts. ACTUAL facts, not whatever crap y'all keep trying to shove in this thread to disguise your temper tantrums and ego-fueled rants.

The Founder's Pack existed to fundraise directly from crowd-funding, as opposed to the typical route which was going to investors and publishers.

The Heirloom Pack, and honestly ALL of DE's large purchase packs, such as Prime Access, etc, exist for EXACTLY the same reason.

You all demand "MORE" from DE, and yet when they don't get it to you "fast enough", y'all cry about that TOO.   So, to fuel "FASTER" development, that means they need MORE money TODAY, not "when enough of you decide to buy some Tennogen".

Thus, they put a deadline on things.  There's literally NOTHING wrong with that.

--- Now, if DE had done this with, say, ACTUAL ITEMS that you REQUIRE in-game to progress, such as weapons, a new frame, etc... or anything that actually KEPT players from taking part in some important or necessary in-game activity or communal activity without paying an exorbitant fee... I MIGHT agree with you more then.

but that simply isn't what's happening.  It's 1 set of skins, and some other extra content, NONE of which has ANY effect on gameplay of the purchaser NOR any other Tenno whatsoever.

LEAST of all is the accolade.  ROFL, like...  I've been playing this game for YEEEEARS, and I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've ever bothered to look for/at an accolade on a profile...  hell, I barely check profiles at all.  I'm much more concerned with what's happening in the missions and chat windows etc.

You want to criticize predatory business practices?  I'm all for it.  Capitalism, itself? Greed?  I'm right there with you, bud.  But this?  This ain't it, chief.

Oh, really now, you are aware, even before? Yes, I am aware that it's not a necessity. However, you and I, we can't speak for others. For some people they may want the skin. Fashionframe is a big deal for everyone, for some, it doesn't. The reason I am vehemently against this because I am fearing the possibility that DE does this more often and it spills to gameplay related items. The one thing DE is known for and what people had stuck for is lack of FOMO, especially since DE had said they won't do this again. For the last part, actually, I'm actually looking for any receipt of that statement, or video... because it's something I'd want to show to everyone.

Also, yeah, while Prime Accesses has some seasonal thing in them, the difference is the prime access do come back. You just have to chime in every month. Not really a fomo, at least not a blatant case. The FOMO thing for the heirloom made it glaring because of the questionable things in it (apparently not questionable for you), combined with other factors I and some others mentioned before on this thread.

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You all demand "MORE" from DE, and yet when they don't get it to you "fast enough", y'all cry about that TOO.   So, to fuel "FASTER" development, that means they need MORE money TODAY, not "when enough of you decide to buy some Tennogen"..

FYI I never moaned about the lack of updates from DE. I actually like the current pace, because I get to take a break whenever needed. Way to assume, bucko.

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

What I think YOU don't seem to understand yet, though, is that it's *irrelevant* to this topic, because what you have yet to grasp is that ALL CAPITALISM IS EXPLOITATIVE.

And you'd stand with this? And you do know that feedback is part of the whole capitalism system, which in turn, those feedbacks are used to form laws and regulations? Capitalism is a good system that most of us live off nowadays, but it does rear its ugly head. But that's where laws come in. So everytime it rears the said ugly head, people talk about it, sometimes, laws come in. This happens with unfair, exploitative practices, most of the time. Capitalism and free market go hand in hand. And as I said before, feedbacks are part & parcel of the free market. I bet you hate right-to-repair too and lost it when some states looked into Star Wars' lootboxes. How is calling out an exploitative process, that you even admit, is pushing out an agenda in bad faith? Are you saying that I should shut up and stop calling out what's exploitative?

59 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

-snip-

I addressed only of what you have said to me. And indeed what you said from the one with ROI and data from DE was truly a conjecture, I found it very ridiculous combined with your previous so I replied to it. Even if the company gathers data from the start, you do know that there are outside factors? You ever heard of executive meddling? Even if the company people are optimistic thanks to their recent data, their target audience may not be going with what they think. There are times that the data of your company, may have discrepancies with the audience or the outside world. When releasing products, the environment is absolutely different and fickle. Hell, it happens in other fields like IT and coding and oh boy, it happens there for sure, I can say.

Also, with regards to the opinions, it seems like you sure don't like the opinions of others here, citing it's dev bashing, it's all unconstructive opinion, when we, are just addressing our feedbacks plainly (what the hell do you want us to say?) and we're not even directing it to the devs or spokesperson like Megan, and some of us even stopped the misdirected anger in this very thread. A caustic opinion would be just plainly bashing DE without even providing a resolution. Your words clash within the same post, and you are deflecting what you are exactly guilty of to others. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Stafelund
grammar

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

2 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

DE *DID* give away "free clothing, weapons, and other bonuses" for their 10 year anniversary.  In fact, we had a whole 10 WEEKS in-game of special events doing exactly that, via GotL Alerts, Recall: Ten Zero alerts, etc, plus drops on Twitch and so on.  Not to mention Dex Operator/Drifter cosmetics, which were also FREE.

then they spoiled it

For themselves

For those that payed

And those that didn't

Shall we mention Founders again or does the point not stick

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

"They totally did this exact thing, with these exact intentions, and made these specific mistakes based on my.... complete lack of evidence.  But just trust me, bro... trust me. It's totally, exactly how things definitely went down.

Platinum booster vouchers Conveniently added into the game

Either that or it replaced discounts

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

I mean, just look at all of these, like, 10 people complaining... out of 10's of MILLIONS!  Clearly, less than 0.0001% of the playerbase is a sIGnIfiCAnT AmOUnT!   Source: "Trust ME"!"

Also the same amount of people that can even see the skins and extra to bug report 

 

1 hour ago, Stafelund said:

The first one is FOMO in general, not just games. But they all focus on one thing: Compulsion. It's worse in this case, because it's compulsion AND money. Mentally, and financially exploitative. The last link even mentions things of what the Heirloom packs are guilty of at #2. It's manipulation, like it or not, no ifs, and no buts about it.

You want facts? You got it. Now, since you're keen on blindly protecting such practice, I'm gonna want you to elaborate on what makes this justified other than being a blatant FOMO product. The Founders pack was a last ditch effort and was made to value the people who used their resources to cement the game's future and to make it available for today. So what's this pack's excuse?

 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

  

^

Players will still buy either pack they like if it suits them. ^{[yes yes I'm replying to my post just pointing it out]}

I actually bought the top pack in the first couple of days before DE added extras because I liked it for what was in it, I don't care for the players who are rubbing it in the faces of other players according to some, I'm too old for that crap and never would in the first place, so I don't see why I should get harassed in the future for buying it, I haven't come across any negativity towards me in the game so players are fine and just like me and want to play, some posts in this thread threatening violence and harassment, and blacklisting players like the Limbo dribble saga are pathetic, those posts were removed by a mod if you go looking.

I haven't taken a solid stand for either party because it's not about sides, if you want it you'll buy it, I don't care about the FOMO I liked the skins and I liked the Regal Aya and Plat was nice as well.

My above quotes should be standard you'd think, if DE put out a no-frills pack with only skins more people would buy it, well you'd think they would which would be bonus money for DE.

I'm a simple person who's lived in tough times of life and just wants to play a game I really like with over 8500+ hours ingame.

Honestly, I completely respect that stance.  I'm also a simple person living through tough times, so I *get* it.  The fact that games like Warframe EXIST these days, much less for FREE, free to ACCESS, free to play EXPANSIONS, etc... is amazing to me.  If I didn't have those, I'd likely not have ANY games to play these days, which would really be sad, as they can do a lot to provide, not just entertainment but, community and socialization where you'd otherwise be in isolation... So, I am, indeed, grateful for games like these.

and tbh, my take is very much the same as your own - if you want it, get it.  If you don't, don't.  If you can't afford it, you have almost 4 MONTHS from its release to save for it, but if you cannot, then you simply cannot.  It's OKAY.  Warframe is STILL open to everyone. STILL FREE to play in EVERY way that matters most.

But from the responses on this topic, you'd think DE was suddenly charging a subscription fee or something.  It's crazy.

To address, specifically, your question as to why they haven't simply put out a "4th pack" without all the extra bells and whistles yet....  I mean, I don't work at DE, so I don't know any better than anyone else on these forums, BUT, having run several businesses over the years, I'd wager that it's not so much that it's "difficult", so much as they simply "can't".

When I say "can't", I'm not implying that it's technically difficult to execute on...  Just that there might be legal or financial reasons that they can't... and so they haven't.

Perhaps they've got a specific contract with the commissioned artist that they can't reneg on.  Perhaps they've got a specific financial goal that they NEED to meet, and that requires a package at this price point... thus why they'd ADD to it, rather than take away FROM it.

But these are just guesses... educated guesses, but guesses, nonetheless.

And the assumptions of some that "If they just did x, they'd make SO MUCH MONEY" aren't really based on any ACTUAL data, from what I've seen.  I mean, sure it might SOUND like it'd work to you, but does it ACTUALLY do that in practice?

Fortunately, companies like DE don't have to guess as much, because they have departments full of workers whose specific jobs have them analyzing just such predictions based on past and present data... much of which is not likely public.

DE is making an educated move, an informed play... they're not just slapping a pack up online with a random number they hope to get... they KNOW that "At $x, it's likely to sell y number of copies, and thus we can expect to earn $a-$b profit over x amount of time on this package."

I mean, it sucks for those of us who can't afford it, sure, but, as someone else who has "lived in tough times", I'm sure you already understand well...  there are a TON of things we can't afford sometimes.... but this is a GAME, not a necessity for living, so this isn't like we're being barred from essential food or shelter over $x  (which sadly IS a thing, but I digress, it isn't DE doing it)....  

So I just don't see how so many people here are blowing this so out of proportion.  They've said plenty.  DE has a DevStream later this month... if they want to elaborate, that'll be the time.

but this expectation that DE just sits around, panicking and waiting to reply to each and every demand on a whim is .. I dunno... juvenile is the only word that seems apt at the moment.  I really want to see the Warframe community live up to the praise it gets more.... but threads like these, they... really don't.

[Circle_of_Psi]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

Bud I was talking about a southpark episode if you didn't read what I sead is its like the episode where the bp oil guy did somthing terrible and his solution was to go (were sorry) basically what there doing hear they forgot about a massive portion of there supporters and didn't think of making a 4th pack for the people that love the game but can't afford 90 dollars and there (were sorry) was to add a bit more platinum to the pack instead of re evaluating the situation and creating a 4th pack for the people that eather can't afford the 90 dollar version or really dont want the platinum and regal aya

 

At this point, you should just ignore the dude.

Why people keep engaging with such types is beyond me

Edited September 17, 2023 by Circle_of_Psi

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

44 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

What I think YOU don't seem to understand yet, though, is that it's *irrelevant* to this topic, because what you have yet to grasp is that ALL CAPITALISM IS EXPLOITATIVE.

That's literally how it WORKS.  You don't "need" 95% of the crap you buy. Hell, ya don't "need" to play this game!  Or ANY game, for that matter.  It's all a "waste of productive potential time spent", if you want to be technical.

95% of stuff most people buy is food or to buy things to replace teaching real Knowledge and skills that were restricted from them

Handed back as a stupid piece of paper saying if someone else allows them to be considered "Intelligent"

Actions are better at a psychological evaluation then words (Until you use emotive language)

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

then they spoiled it

For themselves

For those that payed

And those that didn't

Shall we mention Founders again or does the point not stick

Platinum booster vouchers Conveniently added into the game

Either that or it replaced discounts

Also the same amount of people that can even see the skins and extra to bug report 

 

 

I'm someone who hasn't paid, and I don't feel like anything was spoiled whatsoever.

Y'all need to stop speaking in such absolutes, as if you somehow represent the whole of players. Ya don't.  You represent YOU, yourself, and nobody else, bud.

Also, I can't decipher the rest of your reply here....  I think it TRIED to make a sensible sentence in there somewhere, but...  *shrugs*

and I SWEAR, if I ever played a "Take a shot for every time "Founders" are invoked as a reason to be outraged", I'd be dead already from poisoning...

This has nothing to do with the Founder's Pack, and the situations aren't comparable.  You're trying to compare Apples and Hedgehogs, here... there's nothing there that you THINK there is.

This is simply a thing DE provided for a price, and they're trying to make money from it, as businesses do, at least in part to continue providing all the content everyone demands for free.  Content, it seems, you think materializes from thin air, apparently.

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

95% of stuff most people buy is food or to buy things to replace teaching real Knowledge and skills that were restricted from them

Handed back as a stupid piece of paper saying if someone else allows them to be considered "Intelligent"

Actions are better at a psychological evaluation then words (Until you use emotive language)

Source: "Trust me, bro"

[Circle_of_Psi]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

Actions are better at a psychological evaluation then words (Until you use emotive language)

Are you implying that emotive language should be used to try to address our issues with the pack?

Cuz last time the community did that, well...

Edited September 17, 2023 by Circle_of_Psi

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

I'm someone who hasn't paid, and I don't feel like anything was spoiled whatsoever.

Y'all need to stop speaking in such absolutes, as if you somehow represent the whole of players. Ya don't.  You represent YOU, yourself, and nobody else, bud.

Also, I can't decipher the rest of your reply here....  I think it TRIED to make a sensible sentence in there somewhere, but...  *shrugs*

and I SWEAR, if I ever played a "Take a shot for every time "Founders" are invoked as a reason to be outraged", I'd be dead already from poisoning...

This has nothing to do with the Founder's Pack, and the situations aren't comparable.  You're trying to compare Apples and Hedgehogs, here... there's nothing there that you THINK there is.

This is simply a thing DE provided for a price, and they're trying to make money from it, as businesses do, at least in part to continue providing all the content everyone demands for free.  Content, it seems, you think materializes from thin air, apparently.

this is page 89

I don't do absolutes

I do facts

And if you say vanilla ice cream tastes like chocolate

8 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Y'all need to stop speaking in such absolutes, as if you somehow represent the whole of players. Ya don't.  You represent YOU, yourself, and nobody else, bud.

Your the type of reason i hate hypercrites

Just because you don't have empathy doesn't mean everyone else can't

You don't represent anyone because you don't understand them

Out of touch just like half of the english world, because you choose to

Edited September 17, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 1 hora, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

Definition, in case you don't know: The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

I know, the definition includes people overestimating own knowledge in any particular matter as well (on top of inability to recognize mistakes because of said overestimation), reasons why i'm tossing it right back at you.

hace 1 hora, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

ON that note, I DO have quite an extensive history of experience in running businesses, and all that comes with that, such as understanding marketing, ROI, projections, etc.

I read that segment and instantly got a throwback to this:

En 12/9/2023 a las 1:46, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

And I'm dirt broke [...]

Not sure if you're lying in either of the quoted messages or if both are true and your Dunning Kruger reached a point in which you're dirt broke despite all of your experience in running businesses, marketing understanding, ROI, projections, etc.

hace 1 hora, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

You have yet to cite ACTUAL SOURCES regarding this claim that DE made specific market decisions

Sources have been cited already by other users, one of them even mentioned the prime unvault in which a big youtuber or something (Jimquisition?) made the final push to make a complaint -very similar to this one- be heard by DE and add a cosmetics only pack to it. I'm sure any player old and active enough here on forums remembers such discussion since it's probably the most notable example of DE making changes based on feedback.

That said, it's really hypocritic of you to demand "actual sources" (where "actual" is a blatant attempt to move goalposts over the ones already provided) when your main point is built completely on:

Spoiler

>False equivalences:

En 15/9/2023 a las 2:40, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

And I want a Maserati for $10, a 3 story house on the beach for $5, and FREE pizzas for life...

>Opinions:

En 15/9/2023 a las 2:40, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

Just because you WANT something doesn't make it a reasonable demand, nor does it grant you the right to have it so.

>Speculation

En 15/9/2023 a las 2:40, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

NONE of us, yourself included, have any idea what went into the contracts that commissioned these skins, much less what DE plans to do with income from said sales...

For all you know, they're using it to hire more people and ease burden on their staff or accelerate the pace at which content is produced over time...  Maybe they're using it to pay back loans, perhaps they're just banking it for a rainy day.

>Misinformation (Called out already):

En 15/9/2023 a las 2:40, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

You don't HAVE to like it.  The price simply is what it is.  That's how a free market works.

And of course, no sources, let alone "actual sources" which -based on what i've seen- seems to only apply to those approved by the receiving side.

With all of that in mind, no wonder people are also saying you're just blindly defending DE.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Stormhawkaro
Formatting + typos

[Stafelund]

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

Out of touch just like half of the english, world because you choose to

I'd definitely agree with this. Once I saw the "ALL CAPITALISM IS EXPLOITATIVE" I can see that there's something off there. Why the hell would you agree with this? Content type be damned, exploitative behavior is exploitative. People think and live differently, said exploit may or may not work depending on each person. That's a huge lack of empathy and a very narrow view there.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Stafelund