A few thoughts on shield gate and Harrow fixes

[Terridaks.]

I'm about to spew a wall of text onto the forum, so I'm going to practice on something smaller to start with.

 

Shield gate topic:

I don't know if the DE specifically made it so that the less shields you have, the more effective shield gating is. If it's not supposed to be like that, then the fix seems pretty simple to me.

Make the shield gate's invulnerability time something like 2.4 seconds. If the damage that triggered the shield gate far exceeds the shield cap destroyed, the invulnerability time is reduced (down to 0.6 sec).

Smthn like this:

Incoming damage/Depleted shields = x;

If x > 1, then Invulnerability time = 2.4-(x/2) sec;

Otherwise Invulnerability time = 2.4 sec;

If Invulnerability time < 0.6, then Invulnerability time = 0.6 sec;

Otherwise Invulnerability time sec.

 

Harrow rework easy way:

Take a look at these official artworks. Harrow looks pretty cool, isn't he?

Both of these images, however, share one detail that is missing from the game. Harrow is unable to use his Thurible and secondary weapon at the same time (well, except for the short cast of Condemn). Also, most of the animations of his abilities are awkward.

• If casted in midair, Condemn will instantly drop Harrow to the ground.
• Casting Penance stops all of Harrow's movement and actions.
• Channeling Thurible is a two-handed upper body animation that disables weapon use, casting other abilities and Pickups collection. And you want to charge it for as long as possible.

 It would be great to let Harrow at least fire a secondary weapon while casting Thurible. That way he wouldn't start getting energy for kills until he finishes channeling.

 

Harrow rework hard way:

Aside from inconvenient animations, Harrow has more obvious design flaws. We're talking, of course, about energy recovery and healing triggers. The conditions of receiving these buffs makes Harrow feel uncomfortable in the company of nuke-queens like Saryn or Mesa.

Now let’s shuffle some cards.

1)      Condemn:

No changes.

 

2)      Penance:

Spent shields are now converted not to health, but to energy for Harrow himself. Conversion formula:

Energy gain = Expended shields (excluding overshields) / Max shield capacity * 50 + Expended shields (including overshields) / 50

For example:

30 lvl Harrow with 450 shield cap sacrifices 450 shields. He will gain: 450/450*50+450/50 = 59 energy.

30 lvl Harrow with 450 shield cap sacrifices 2850 shields. He will gain: 450/450*50+2850/50 = 107 energy.

Reload speed and fire rate boosts are untouched.

No more vampirism from weapon damage.

Energy is no longer required for this ability.

 

3)      Thurible:

Harrow becomes invulnerable during channeling.

Harrow can channel Thurible for up to a maximum of 3/4/5/6 sec.

Upon release he gains Retaliation buff, which provides bonus crit chance on headshots for up to a maximum of 6/8/10/12 sec.

Retaliation provides a 5% base critical chance, plus extra critical chance converted from total damage prevented at a rate of 1.50% per 100 damage points prevented.

Channeling Thurible is a two-handed upper body animation that disables weapon use, casting other abilities and Pickups collection, but allows player movement and parkour Maneuvers.

Energy cost: 75

 

4)      Covenant:

Harrow covenants with all his allies, providing them with positive effects from his own abilities:

Condemn restores shields to allies with 50% effectiveness;

Penance provides energy with 50% effectiveness;

Thurible provides both invulnerability and Retaliation buffs at full strength. Also, while Covenant is active, all damage prevented by affected allies, increases Retaliation buff effectiveness. 

While active, 2,5% (5% for Harrow) of any crit damage dealt by allies to enemies converts into health for Harrow and allies within his Affinity Range.

Provides an individual bonus to critical damage that increases in proportion to the ally’s missing shields%.

Min crit damage bonus: 10% (unaffected by mods)

Max crit damage bonus: 110% (unaffected by mods)

Energy cost: 25+5/sec

Harrow can replenish energy, using Penance while Covenant is active.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Terridaks.

[Stormandreas]

So I'm just going to talk about the Shield gate topic here, because Harrow absolutely does not need a rework.

 

Shield gating is done on an equation, where theoretically, you'd think having less shields would reduce the shield charge time and such, which isn't the case. It's an old equation that tbh, doesn't overly need changed, but the main outlier is ablities that restore shields, not the Dragon Key.

In your example, if damage taken exceeds the shield capacity, the shield gate might as well not exist. 0.5s (as the basic gate currently is when your shields are partially charged), does pretty much nothing. No-one can react fast enough to do anything about their shield breaking there.

However, lets consider the opposite. Lets say, the minimum shield gate time is 1s at 300 shields, but, the more shields you have, the longer the gate (Currently it is 1.2s no matter how many shields you have).
Thus, throwing Redirection on, would now increase your shield gate timer to... lets say 2.2s (that's a 220% increase for a 440% increase in shields, thus, the shield gate timer would be increased by 50% based on the shields).

This, I would not be adversed to, and it would actually create slightly more interesting scenarios for certain frames, like Harrow and Protea etc. It would also heavily cut down on the usage of holding a Decaying Dragon Key, as well as incentivising the thought of increasing your shields through mods and overshields.

 

The downside:

Shield gating is a pretty integral part of keeping a LOT of frames alive now. Take Gyre for example. In steel path, she absolutely crumbles, as she has zero defensive abilities whatsoever. This is resolved by utilizing Pillage from Helminth and holding the Dragon Key. Now, Gyre can shield gate, keeping her alive, and also strip armour at the same time.

If shield gating were to change, either many frames would need small tweaks or reworks to provide them with defensive abilties or strategies in order to keep them alive, or, DE has to accept that well over half of their roster is going to collect dust, just like Nidus and Inaros currently do.

[taiiat]

2.4 Seconds is a pretty long time and also makes the early game way too easy and misleading for Players. they're going to be taught to generally feel invulnerable to anything, and then at higher Levels suddenly their Gating will get quartered and they'll have to relearn the game.
i don't think that's a good choice.

all that's needed is benefits for increasing your Shield Capacity. ones that are strong enough to generally be seen as favorable over the benefits for reducing it. then both types co-exist without harming each other. though, the benefits for reducing it maybe still need to be nerfed a little bit. but what's important is that it can remain existing, the problem is that there isn't enough benefit to trying to Mod into Shields, not that "Modding out of Shields" has too many benefits. the problem is a gaping hole, not that there is something partially filling that hole.

 

 

on Harrow i'd mostly just say that Penance should either take 95% or 50% of his Shields thesedays, rather than 100%. taking all of them is a way to get deleted at higher Levels. it could even take all but 1 Shieldpoint. just something less than 100%.

your comment on the Casting Animations is fair. loosening the restrictions on them would be nice.
the Abilities themselves work pretty well as is i think, however.

[Terridaks.]

20 минут назад, Stormandreas сказал:

So I'm just going to talk about the Shield gate topic here, because Harrow absolutely does not need a rework.

 

Shield gating is done on an equation, where theoretically, you'd think having less shields would reduce the shield charge time and such, which isn't the case. It's an old equation that tbh, doesn't overly need changed, but the main outlier is ablities that restore shields, not the Dragon Key.

In your example, if damage taken exceeds the shield capacity, the shield gate might as well not exist. 0.5s (as the basic gate currently is when your shields are partially charged), does pretty much nothing. No-one can react fast enough to do anything about their shield breaking there.

However, lets consider the opposite. Lets say, the minimum shield gate time is 1s at 300 shields, but, the more shields you have, the longer the gate (Currently it is 1.2s no matter how many shields you have).
Thus, throwing Redirection on, would now increase your shield gate timer to... lets say 2.2s (that's a 220% increase for a 440% increase in shields, thus, the shield gate timer would be increased by 50% based on the shields).

This, I would not be adversed to, and it would actually create slightly more interesting scenarios for certain frames, like Harrow and Protea etc. It would also heavily cut down on the usage of holding a Decaying Dragon Key, as well as incentivising the thought of increasing your shields through mods and overshields.

 

The downside:

Shield gating is a pretty integral part of keeping a LOT of frames alive now. Take Gyre for example. In steel path, she absolutely crumbles, as she has zero defensive abilities whatsoever. This is resolved by utilizing Pillage from Helminth and holding the Dragon Key. Now, Gyre can shield gate, keeping her alive, and also strip armour at the same time.

If shield gating were to change, either many frames would need small tweaks or reworks to provide them with defensive abilties or strategies in order to keep them alive, or, DE has to accept that well over half of their roster is going to collect dust, just like Nidus and Inaros currently do.

Yeah, I see: most shield replenishing abilities provides flat shield bonus. More changes to shield-replenishing abilities will be required. 

6 минут назад, taiiat сказал:

2.4 Seconds is a pretty long time and also makes the early game way too easy and misleading for Players. they're going to be taught to generally feel invulnerable to anything, and then at higher Levels suddenly their Gating will get quartered and they'll have to relearn the game.
i don't think that's a good choice.

all that's needed is benefits for increasing your Shield Capacity. ones that are strong enough to generally be seen as favorable over the benefits for reducing it. then both types co-exist without harming each other. though, the benefits for reducing it maybe still need to be nerfed a little bit. but what's important is that it can remain existing, the problem is that there isn't enough benefit to trying to Mod into Shields, not that "Modding out of Shields" has too many benefits. the problem is a gaping hole, not that there is something partially filling that hole.

 

 

on Harrow i'd mostly just say that Penance should either take 95% or 50% of his Shields thesedays, rather than 100%. taking all of them is a way to get deleted at higher Levels. it could even take all but 1 Shieldpoint. just something less than 100%.

your comment on the Casting Animations is fair. loosening the restrictions on them would be nice.
the Abilities themselves work pretty well as is i think, however.

Consistancy, eh? Good point.

[Rathalio]

Harrow is definitely more than fine in the current meta.

And even if weirdly enough it's somewhat beneficial to have low shield capacity for gating and Harrow does not. It's still absolutely not an issue with Harrow, with some range and a bit of strength, one single cast of condemn can refill 3000+ shields. And penance consuming all his shield temporarily is by this argument also not an issue, you can instantly get your shield back and have enemies CCed around you anyways. And if you feel that's too risky just cast penance while the invulnerability of your covenant is running. You really have many answers to this "issue".

I always find it terrible takes when people point out a weakness on a warframe kit and say that it should be fixed as if it was not manageable. Same thing with people always complaining about eximus interactions with Limbo. Warframes have to have some sort of weaknesses as long as you can play around them otherwise they are just bland and make the game way too casual and boring. Mindlessly farming with flawless gear is not fun on the long run.

In general shield gating doesn't have to be abused to be efficient. Especially for content even up to 1h+ SP survivals. Which covers 95%+ of the game for the vast majority of players. And in that context multiple health tanking options are still viable. Game mechanics need to have healthy limits.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Rathalio
fixed typo (obviously meant 3000+ not 3000k)

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Stormandreas said:

This is resolved by utilizing Pillage from Helminth and holding the Dragon Key.

Gyre doesnt need Dragon Key if your run Pillage.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

38 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

In general shield gating doesn't have to be abused to be efficient. Especially for content even up to 1h+ SP survivals. Which covers 95%+ of the game for the vast majority of players. And in that context multiple health tanking options are still viable. Game mechanics need to have healthy limits.

A blast eximus will one shot you no matter how much health and armor you have as long as you have no shields on base sp. While it is apparently a bug, blast eximus can rather consistently one shot you. There are other situations where armor and health just isn't enough. While I mostly agree with you that health and armor tanking is fine for the majority of content, you can still get one shot and absolutely ruins it for me.

1 minute ago, Zakkhar said:

Gyre doesnt need Dragon Key if your run Pillage.

Pillage is useful because it can provide shield gating twice with decaying key just like polarize and condemn. While not 100% necessary, it is why these abilities are so strong in sg set-ups.

[Terridaks.]

53 минуты назад, Rathalio сказал:

Harrow is definitely more than fine in the current meta.

And even if weirdly enough it's somewhat beneficial to have low shield capacity for gating and Harrow does not. It's still absolutely not an issue with Harrow, with some range and a bit of strength, one single cast of condemn can refill 3000k shields. And penance consuming all his shield temporarily is by this argument also not an issue, you can instantly get your shield back and have enemies CCed around you anyways. And if you feel that's too risky just cast penance while the invulnerability of your covenant is running. You really have many answers to this "issue".

I always find it terrible takes when people point out a weakness on a warframe kit and say that it should be fixed as if it was not manageable. Same thing with people always complaining about eximus interactions with Limbo. Warframes have to have some sort of weaknesses as long as you can play around them otherwise they are just bland and make the game way too casual and boring. Mindlessly farming with flawless gear is not fun on the long run.

In general shield gating doesn't have to be abused to be efficient. Especially for content even up to 1h+ SP survivals. Which covers 95%+ of the game for the vast majority of players. And in that context multiple health tanking options are still viable. Game mechanics need to have healthy limits.

The thread title seems to be disorienting. Please note that I did not try to "fix" any of the problems you listed. My proposal is more about more convenient and interesting gameplay than about fixing something broken. Shield gate change is just a nice bonus. But, as people above pointed out, my suggestion regarding the shield gate changes was unsuccessful as it will req additional changes to most of shield-refilling abilities. 

[Rathalio]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

A blast eximus will one shot you no matter how much health and armor you have as long as you have no shields on base sp. While it is apparently a bug, blast eximus can rather consistently one shot you. There are other situations where armor and health just isn't enough. While I mostly agree with you that health and armor tanking is fine for the majority of content, you can still get one shot and absolutely ruins it for me.

I've not experienced this bug, but then sure it's a real threat. Although blitz eximus come in limited amount and their ability is definitely avoidable. Which was the whole point of the eximus rework. Stronger abilities but you can dodge them quite easily if you play mindfully.

For health tanking I was particularly referring to warframes that have the stats and abilities to work with it. Just like Nidus with his parasitic link on an enemy, he can tank SP enemies above lvl250 easily, and in his case, even if there is a bug that can oneshot you sometimes, your passive saving you from time to time is enough. Other than Nidus, warframes that work well still with health tanking and actively rely on that would be: Nezha, Gara and Chroma also Oberon and Wukong are mostly fine even if usually less tanky in comparison. Since I manage to play them well in SP endurance missions, I feel like it's fine for that reason.

2 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

The thread title seems to be disorienting. Please note that I did not try to "fix" any of the problems you listed. My proposal is more about more convenient and interesting gameplay than about fixing something broken. Shield gate change is just a nice bonus. But, as people above pointed out, my suggestion regarding the shield gate changes was unsuccessful as it will req additional changes to most of shield-refilling abilities. 

Overall your suggestions for Harrow particularly are changing way too many aspects. Which needs to be justified by a non functional warframe design in the first place and that's not the case. That's why we are mostly getting the idea that your suggestion is "a way to fix things". And it's definitely outside of the scope of a QoL improvement.

[Mazifet]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

A blast eximus will one shot you no matter how much health and armor you have as long as you have no shields on base sp. While it is apparently a bug, blast eximus can rather consistently one shot you. There are other situations where armor and health just isn't enough. While I mostly agree with you that health and armor tanking is fine for the majority of content, you can still get one shot and absolutely ruins it for me.

Not really though. I've stood in front of steel path blast eximus with my Lavos, shields down, and he didn't one shot me. Pretty much all health tanking builds are extremely effective up to about level 500, and more specialized ones can handle lvl 1000 if managed well. For 99.9% of content, health tanking and damage reduction will remain as the easiest way to stay alive.

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Rathalio said:

And penance consuming all his shield temporarily is by this argument also not an issue, you can instantly get your shield back and have enemies CCed around you anyways. And if you feel that's too risky just cast penance while the invulnerability of your covenant is running. You really have many answers to this "issue".

yesn't - this solution works, but is also only effective with a fair amount of Gear, including enough Energy management stuff that you can use Abilities back-back without thinking about their cost. 
but, Warframes should be designed to function well irregardless of your Mods, Focus, Arcanes, or anything else. 

4 hours ago, Rathalio said:

I always find it terrible takes when people point out a weakness on a warframe kit and say that it should be fixed as if it was not manageable. Same thing with people always complaining about eximus interactions with Limbo. Warframes have to have some sort of weaknesses as long as you can play around them otherwise they are just bland and make the game way too casual and boring. Mindlessly farming with flawless gear is not fun on the long run.

i can appreciate lukewarm feelings when Players are tasked with protecting Health based Objectives, but didn't bring one of the small count of Warframes which offer almost perfect protection for those Objectives that is so that they don't get destroyed. all the meanwhile you had no trouble surviving yourself or Killing Enemies, and you even had reasonable CC - but the Health based Objective dies anyways because some Enemies ignore Game Mechanics and so end up destroying that Objective while you were mowing through crowds of Enemies.
extra bonus points if that Health based Objective is placed in an open area so that basically any Enemy which isn't completely CC locked can easily fire at the Objective as much as they want.

 

i'll always lean on the side of Ability variety, over some theoretically better whichever that more restricts the usefulness of 90% of the Warframes compared to a few others. we have a lot of Abilities and they should all be considered effective without some of them being a 'much more universally capable option' than the rest, so to speak.

[Famecans]

5 hours ago, Rathalio said:

Harrow is definitely more than fine in the current meta.

And even if weirdly enough it's somewhat beneficial to have low shield capacity for gating and Harrow does not. It's still absolutely not an issue with Harrow, with some range and a bit of strength, one single cast of condemn can refill 3000k shields. And penance consuming all his shield temporarily is by this argument also not an issue, you can instantly get your shield back and have enemies CCed around you anyways. And if you feel that's too risky just cast penance while the invulnerability of your covenant is running. You really have many answers to this "issue".

I always find it terrible takes when people point out a weakness on a warframe kit and say that it should be fixed as if it was not manageable. Same thing with people always complaining about eximus interactions with Limbo. Warframes have to have some sort of weaknesses as long as you can play around them otherwise they are just bland and make the game way too casual and boring. Mindlessly farming with flawless gear is not fun on the long run.

In general shield gating doesn't have to be abused to be efficient. Especially for content even up to 1h+ SP survivals. Which covers 95%+ of the game for the vast majority of players. And in that context multiple health tanking options are still viable. Game mechanics need to have healthy limits.

Do you classify that a frame is ok for the ability to generate shields and survive through shieldgating??? for me shieldgating functionality is a bad metric.

Harrow is boring, Harrow is complicated to play, there are two skills (2 and 4) to increase damage and both depend on nearby enemies, skill 3 only works after a two-factor action, i.e. you need to gain shields with skill 1 to trigger correctly Skill 2 and oddly enough skill 1 also depends on living enemies.

Harrow is functional for solo games but not fun for team games, the experienced player spends more time managing numbers in the interface instead of enjoying the gameplay.

[Rathalio]

9 minutes ago, Famecans said:

Do you classify that a frame is ok for the ability to generate shields and survive through shieldgating??? for me shieldgating functionality is a bad metric.

If you understood what I said previously, you would have noticed that shield gating being present or not is not a factor for me on how meta a warframe is. I simply answered the argument about shield gating not synergizing so well with Harrow's kit and explained how it's a non-issue, as anyways he greatly benefits from it with his easy access to shield regeneration. And later I developed, saying how health tanking is also a viable alternative, but not for Harrow though as he is built to survive higher level content thanks to the shield gate to some extent.

8 minutes ago, Famecans said:

Harrow is boring, Harrow is complicated to play, there are two skills (2 and 4) to increase damage and both depend on nearby enemies, skill 3 only works after a two-factor action, i.e. you need to gain shields with skill 1 to trigger correctly Skill 2 and oddly enough skill 1 also depends on living enemies.

Harrow is functional for solo games but not fun for team games, the experienced player spends more time managing numbers in the interface instead of enjoying the gameplay.

It's a fair point of view, although you have to admit that it is totally subjective and your own experience. Therefore it's not saying much about how strong or weak Harrow is.

And tbh I honestly kind of had the same view on Harrow until I found a way to optimize him enough so I wouldn't be bothered by an endless ability rotation anymore. Now that I can fully enjoy his penance and covenant buffs on my weapons on shred enemies instead on focusing on keeping my supportive abilities up 24/7, Harrow is very enjoyable and gives a good power fantasy feeling. And he works well as a team especially if you slot the condemn augment.

[Famecans]

7 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

31 minutes ago, Famecans said:

Do you classify that a frame is ok for the ability to generate shields and survive through shieldgating??? for me shieldgating functionality is a bad metric.

If you understood what I said previously, you would have noticed that shield gating being present or not is not a factor for me on how meta a warframe is. I simply answered the argument about shield gating not synergizing so well with Harrow's kit and explained how it's a non-issue, as anyways he greatly benefits from it with his easy access to shield regeneration. And later I developed, saying how health tanking is also a viable alternative, but not for Harrow though as he is built to survive higher level content thanks to the shield gate to some extent.

31 minutes ago, Famecans said:

Harrow is boring, Harrow is complicated to play, there are two skills (2 and 4) to increase damage and both depend on nearby enemies, skill 3 only works after a two-factor action, i.e. you need to gain shields with skill 1 to trigger correctly Skill 2 and oddly enough skill 1 also depends on living enemies.

Harrow is functional for solo games but not fun for team games, the experienced player spends more time managing numbers in the interface instead of enjoying the gameplay.

It's a fair point of view, although you have to admit that it is totally subjective and your own experience. Therefore it's not saying much about how strong or weak Harrow is.

And tbh I honestly kind of had the same view on Harrow until I found a way to optimize him enough so I wouldn't be bothered by an endless ability rotation anymore. Now that I can fully enjoy his penance and covenant buffs on my weapons on shred enemies instead on focusing on keeping my supportive abilities up 24/7, Harrow is very enjoyable and gives a good power fantasy feeling. And he works well as a team especially if you slot the condemn augment.

Well, you're probably talking about Phillager, but Harrow still has the same problem and it's simple to understand, without enemies Harrow doesn't work. If there is Saryn or Mesa killing enemies, Harrow does not work because it will have few opportunities for action.

[Tiltskillet]

8 minutes ago, Famecans said:

Harrow is boring . . .

Harrow is functional for solo games but not fun for team games, the experienced player spends more time managing numbers in the interface instead of enjoying the gameplay.

Opinions are fun.  I would call him one of the five least boring frames.  Maybe the least boring frame.  But I understand how his design and rhythm are not to everyone's taste.  Hell, there are plenty of days it's not to my taste, when I feel like playing something more on the low attention end of the spectrum.

He definitely works much better in content where the team isn't insta-nuking everything, that's certainly true.  And WF generally has made it  easy to not see that content if a person doesn't go out of their way to seek it out.  Personally I'm more inclined to call that an issue with the game than an issue with Harrow, but I can see it both ways.

10 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

And tbh I honestly kind of had the same view on Harrow until I found a way to optimize him enough so I wouldn't be bothered by an endless ability rotation anymore.

What's your build?

[Rathalio]

18 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

What's your build?

It's a very costly/endgame build as you will see. But there is a few things you really don't have to have to make it work and you can find cheaper variations of the build. Especially if you intend on playing him solo. I don't think it's a super special build, it's rather a "Harrow to the limits" build, I would say.

Spoiler

Duration is technically 164% with the arcane instead of 128%. With you full shields penance lasts for ~100 sec. Thurible lasts for 57sec and has 47m range, which feels comfortable enough with keeping your allies in range. Durations like that feel high enough for me and with the casting speed shard on top of that, it's really better.

Combat discipline procs arcane avenger constantly as well as archon intensify with penance's healing. I didn't build around relying on the extra strength though it's here as a bonus in the build. Tribunal augment is for teamplay, with the range you have on your condemn 1 cast on enemies even with a Mesa/Saryn killing everything is more than enough to refill your energy and not be in trouble. Warding thurible is not scaling super well on high level, but with the range, extra DR for everyone within 47m is cool for me (and 90% DR on 3000+ shields is not too bad) and that was the last optimization I could go for with the archon shards in the equation (the strength shards are here to have a juicy penance buff as well as maxing the DR to 90%). But if they release a good augment for Penance I will likely switch for that instead. Or you can play the covenant augment if you like it. Or go for another duration mod and go crazy? Like augur message or constitution. Or slot rolling guard if you don't feel safe enough, although I don't think it's necessary.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Rathalio

[Stormandreas]

8 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Gyre doesnt need Dragon Key if your run Pillage.

the dragon key helps regardless

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

9 hours ago, Mazifet said:

Not really though. I've stood in front of steel path blast eximus with my Lavos, shields down, and he didn't one shot me. Pretty much all health tanking builds are extremely effective up to about level 500, and more specialized ones can handle lvl 1000 if managed well. For 99.9% of content, health tanking and damage reduction will remain as the easiest way to stay alive.

Ok well it's a confirmed bug so yes really though.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

10 hours ago, Rathalio said:

I've not experienced this bug, but then sure it's a real threat. Although blitz eximus come in limited amount and their ability is definitely avoidable. Which was the whole point of the eximus rework. Stronger abilities but you can dodge them quite easily if you play mindfully.

For health tanking I was particularly referring to warframes that have the stats and abilities to work with it. Just like Nidus with his parasitic link on an enemy, he can tank SP enemies above lvl250 easily, and in his case, even if there is a bug that can oneshot you sometimes, your passive saving you from time to time is enough. Other than Nidus, warframes that work well still with health tanking and actively rely on that would be: Nezha, Gara and Chroma also Oberon and Wukong are mostly fine even if usually less tanky in comparison. Since I manage to play them well in SP endurance missions, I feel like it's fine for that reason.

Overall your suggestions for Harrow particularly are changing way too many aspects. Which needs to be justified by a non functional warframe design in the first place and that's not the case. That's why we are mostly getting the idea that your suggestion is "a way to fix things". And it's definitely outside of the scope of a QoL improvement.

I definitely am not insinuating health tanking is useless. Its useful for the majority of gameplay it's just not going to always keep you alive when it very well should.

[Terridaks.]

10 часов назад, Famecans сказал:

Well, you're probably talking about Phillager, but Harrow still has the same problem and it's simple to understand, without enemies Harrow doesn't work. If there is Saryn or Mesa killing enemies, Harrow does not work because it will have few opportunities for action.

And that's exactly what I tried to change. Shield replenish dependency remains, but replenishing energy and health no longer requires Harrow himself to kill enemies.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Terridaks.

[Rathalio]

4 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

And that's exactly what I tried to change. Shield replenish dependency remains, but replenishing energy and health no longer requires Harrow himself to kill enemies.

Tribunal augment already exists for that exact purpose though. Any ally killing an enemy under the influence of condemn generates the healing and energy from your penance and thurible.

[Terridaks.]

21 минуту назад, Rathalio сказал:

Tribunal augment already exists for that exact purpose though. Any ally killing an enemy under the influence of condemn generates the healing and energy from your penance and thurible.

I know, it's one of those augments that adds features that, for some unknown reason, were not provided in the default abilities.

[Rathalio]

17 minutes ago, Terridaks. said:

I know, it's one of those augments that adds features that, for some unknown reason, were not provided in the default abilities.

Honestly it's a pretty solid and strong feature, as in generally isn't mandatory but becomes very impactful then when you play next to a heavy DPS warframe. And even if to some extent it can feel like "a fix that should have been patched instead of being a mod", it's legitimately a lot more meaningful than a simple fix to Harrow's kit. And it not realistic to claim it's impossible to sustain your abilities when a squad mate is killing a lot of enemies without this augment. Sometimes these arguments really give me such a "spoiled child" vibe. Because it's not really that big of a deal to slot it at all.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Rathalio

[Terridaks.]

18 часов назад, Rathalio сказал:

Honestly it's a pretty solid and strong feature, as in generally isn't mandatory but becomes very impactful then when you play next to a heavy DPS warframe. And even if to some extent it can feel like "a fix that should have been patched instead of being a mod", it's legitimately a lot more meaningful than a simple fix to Harrow's kit. And it not realistic to claim it's impossible to sustain your abilities when a squad mate is killing a lot of enemies without this augment. Sometimes these arguments really give me such a "spoiled child" vibe. Because it's not really that big of a deal to slot it at all.

Well first of all, my rework is not a direct or even indirect buf. It just increases Harrow's effectiveness as a support warframe, instead of decreasing depending on the strength of his teammates. It also allows you to use a Thurible in the middle of combat outside of Covenants invulnerability window. If it's an intentional gamedesign that a supposedly supporting warframe without augment can perform worse in co-op play than in solo, fine. If it's an intentional gamedesign that Harrow is completely volneruble during Thurible channeling, fine. However, how often do you NOT see nuke warframes in your squad? However, how come both completely optional augments are used by yourself? Sure, they're not mandatory, but somehow they're so desirable that you can't get past them, especially if you're playing co-op. The really optional augments look different. They give abilities new uses. They are few in this game, and yet I can name a few at once: Fireball frenzy, Icy avalanche, Safeguard switch, etc. 

This reminds me of my old suggestion to give Frost's avalanche the same freezing effect as his first ability. I've also encountered comments like: "lol, his avalanche is a great CC, just build him for energy efficiency and range".

Edited September 9, 2023 by Terridaks.