Mag Mini-rework

[bnuy]

Design Goals

There are many questions to consider when theory-crafting balance changes, with the first being the most important; what issues are these changes meant to address? The main intent with these changes is to correct Mag's reliance on shieldgating, give her an actually useful passive, and enhance the existing synergies in her kit. When played correctly she can make herself very resilient, becoming effectively immortal, by abusing shieldgate resets. The issue with this is that without that shieldgating mechanic, Mag becomes incredibly frail. Her passive has tons of potential to be interesting with the theme of her kit, however despite this, it's something even beginners would find useless. On a final but less important note, many of her augment mods have effects that either make them essential to slot in most builds, or entirely useless.

Other Helpful Questions:

1. How tanky are they, and through what means do they achieve their resilience?
   • Mag has above average resilience, and mainly achieves it by using her abilities to give overshields and shieldgating.
2. How much damage do they deal, and what do they use to inflict it?
   • Mag has high damage, she primarily inflicts this damage through her abilities and by empowering Magnetize with her weapons.
3. What feel and play-style do they reflect when in use?
   • Mag is a utility caster that supports her team, casting abilities more often than most frames would have to in order to manage them effectively.

These questions help me refine the direction I want to take with the rework. I am able to figure out if the frame is more of a front-line bulwark, a back-line sniper, or right in the middle. Along with that I also consider what types of thematically cohesive mechanics would work for the frame's abilities. Mag supports her squad and likes to use her abilities incredibly often, which can quickly lead to energy issues. Based on this I know that having a form of energy regeneration that she can grant to the team would be a fantastic tool to really round out her kit.
 

Ability Changes

Passive: Energizing Affliction (new)

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What Changed, and Why?
Mag's current passive is barely even useful for brand new players, let alone someone with a geared out pet and the vacuum mod. Considering this, along with how her kit doesn't have many interesting synergies, I opted to replace her old passive entirely with something new and refreshing. Mag is a very heavy caster who runs through her energy quickly, so naturally my mind gravitated toward some form of energy replenishment, and I figured I could also work some synergies into it.
 

• Energizing Affliction
  • Description:
    • Upon dealing ability damage with Pull, Magnetize, or Polarize, apply a stacking 'Energized' mark to the affected enemies. Tenno that damage marked units with weapons will consume all marks, gaining stacking energy regeneration over time.
       
  • Ability Stats & Functions:
    • Cast Type: Passive, Ability Debuff
       
    • Max Stacks / Target: 4
    • Energized Duration (Enemy): 3.0s
    • Energized Duration (Ally): 6.0s
    • Energized Buff: +0.75 Energy per second; stacks 4x, 3.0/s max.
      • each ability cast may only apply a single mark to any specific enemy
      • each energized mark retains it's own duration
      • can consume multiple stacks from a single enemy

Ability 1: Pull (tweaked)

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What Changed, and Why?
Pull is a great low cost crowd control tool, but it's augment Greedy Pull on the other hand is not worth using because the effect just isn't impactful. Instead of trying to make the mod artbitratily more useful by adding ability range or strength, I instead opted to make Greedy Pull part of the base ability. This allowed me to entirely rework her Pull augment into something more interesting with an effect players would actually find useful.
 

• Pull
  • Description:
    • Mag stuns enemies as she manifests a magnetic vortex. The vortex pulls in all loot, Polarize Shards, and stunned enemies, suspending them directly in front of her.
       
  • Ability Stats & Functions:
    • Energy Cost: 25 Energy (affected by ability efficiency)
    • Cast Type: Activation, Self Radial + Target Point
       
    • Pull Damage: 300 Magnetic Damage (affected by ability strength)
    • Pull Range: 25.0m (affected by ability range)
    • Pull Angle: 90.0°
    • Radial Pull Range: 6.0m
    • Vortex Duration: 2.0s
      • pull affects all loot caught in the cast zone
      • radial pull affects all applicable targets within 6.0m of mag
      • vortex suspends all affected targets in front of mag

Ability 2: Magnetize (tweaked)

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What Changed, and Why?
The only current issues with the (Tap) cast of Magnetize are that you can't spawn bubbles without enemies being present, or detonate them prematurely. As for her augment, Magnetized Discharge, it's guilty of having an effect that should be a basic component of the ability, forcing players to almost always spend a mod slot on it. Being able to prematurely detonate her Magnetize bubbles is a core requirement for being able to actively manage her Magnetize placements. For these reasons I gave Magnetized Discharge the same treatment as Greedy Pull, completely reworking it and making it's effect a natural part of the ability. Now if we look at the (Hold) cast portion of the ability, there are a couple of issues as well. First and foremost is that it doesn't actually prevent all weapon's fire from hitting you while channeling it, you can still get dinged by the occasional bullet. The second issue, that is quite jarring, is that you are prevented from performing parkour maneuvers and are slowed to a crawl while channeling. These two issues combine to create an experience that is frustrating for the player, effectively locking them in place before leaving them vulnerable to some attacks.
 

• Magnetize
  • Description:
    • (Tap) Create a magnetic field at the target location that ensnares nearby enemies and deals damage over time. The field pulls Polarize Shards and deadly shrapnel into the mix. (Hold) Mag surrounds herself in protective magnetic field that absorbs ranged attacks to reflect them back in a final destructive blast.
       
  • Ability Stats & Functions:
    • (Tap) Cast:
      • Energy Cost: 50 Energy (affected by ability efficiency)
      • Cast Type: Activation, Target Enemy or Position
         
      • Magnetize Radius: 5.0m (affected by ability range)
      • Magnetize Target Damage Multiplier: 2.00x Damage taken (affected by ability strength)
      • Magnetize Damage / Second (Hits 2x for 50.0%): 25.0% of Damage from all absorbed bullets, projectiles, and Polarize Shards as Magnetic Damage
        • magnetize only absorbs direct damage, it will ignore critical bonuses, type bonuses, on-hit effects, and explosions
        • magnetize can be cast without a target enemy to create a magnetic field at the targeted position
        • can recast on an active bubble to detonate it prematurely
           
      • Magnetic Pull Radius: 10.0m (affected by ability range)
      • Magnetic Pull Strength: 4.0x Magnetic Pull (affected by ability strength)
        • magnetic pull works until magnetize expires
        • magnetic pull does not bypass terrain
           
      • Explosion Radius: 15.0m (affected by ability range)
      • Explosion Damage: 300 Magnetic Damage (affected by ability strength)
      • Explosion Damage (Stored): +100.0% of current Damage per Second on Damage over Time enemy hit, for every hit, as Magnetic Damage
        • explosion damage does not have fall-off
        • explosion damage does not bypass terrain
        • explosion stored damage is based on the current damage per second at the specific time of each hit, meaning if magnetize has 100 damage per second and hits an enemy before the damage per second is then increased to 200, it would still only have 100 explosion stored damage
           
    • (Hold) Cast:
      • Energy Cost: 50 Energy (affected by ability efficiency)
      • Energy Drain (/sec): 5 Energy (affected by ability efficiency & ability duration)
      • Cast Type: Channeled, Self Radial + Target Point
         
      • Absorb Radius: 5.0m (affected by ability range)
      • Blast Range: 15.0m (affected by ability range)
      • Blast Angle: 120.0°
      • Blast Damage: 300 Magnetic Damage + 25 Magnetic Damage per second spent absorbing (affected by ability strength)
      • Blast Damage (Stored): 2.00x total Damage of all absorbed attacks as Magnetic Damage (affected by ability strength)
        • protective field destroys all absorbed attacks, including explosives, preventing them detonating
        • protective field absorbs all damage except for on-hit effects and explosions
        • polarize shard damage will be absorbed, consuming them in the process
        • channeling absorb does not restrict mag's movement

Ability 3: Polarize (tweaked)

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What Changed, and Why?
Polarize is a loaded ability with plenty of functions and ways to use it, but it's not free from issues. The main issue with the ability is that the Polarize Shards it creates have a flat damage value, making them useful only in large quantities, otherwise their damage is very poor. Polarize Shards get the main heft of their damage from the amount of Armor or Shields the target had drained from them, meaning if the damage was converted to be percentage based it would allow the Shards to effectively scale with enemy level. This would be a fantastic synergy for Mag, she currently has to rely on high damage weapons to increase the Magnetize damage over time, but with this simple change she could build up Magnetize Damage with just her Polarize Shards.
 

• Polarize
  • Description:
    • Emit an energy pulse that depletes enemy armor and shields, as it restores and reinforces ally shields. Debris left over from the pulse becomes Polarize Shards. Nearby Polarize Shards orbit Mag and attack enemies, inflicting bleed and weakened status.
       
  • Ability Stats & Functions:
    • Energy Cost: 75 Energy (affected by ability efficiency)
    • Cast Type: Activation, Self Position
       
    • Pulse Initial Radius: 8.0m (affected by ability range)
    • Pulse Travel Duration: 5.0s (affected by ability duration)
    • Pulse Travel Speed: 6.0m/s
       
    • Pulse Hit Drain (Enemy): 30.0% maximum Armor or Shields removal as True Damage (affected by ability strength)
    • Pulse Hit Shards (Enemy): 1 Polarize Shard with a 50.0% chance to drop 2
    • Pulse Hit Restore (Ally): 30.0% maximum Shields (affected by ability strength)
    • Pulse Hit Buff (Ally): +20.0% Damage Reduction to Shields per active Energized stack for 6.0s; stacks 4x, 80.0% max. (affected by ability duration)
      • restored allies with active energized stacks are granted the energized shield buff, it does not consume the stacks
      • pulse armor removal is permanent
         
    • Explosion Radius: 50.0% of Total Pulse Radius
    • Explosion Damage: 100.0% of drained Armor or Shields as Magnetic Damage
      • explosion damage does not have fall-off
      • explosion damage does not bypass terrain
      • an explosion is created for every drained enemy
         
    • Polarize Shards:
      • Mag Pickup Radius: 5.0m
      • Mag Orbit Radius: 1.0m - 2.0m
      • Punch Through: ∞ body
      • Damage: 25 Puncture Damage, 25 Slash Damage (affected by ability strength)
      • Damage (Drain Bonus): 25.0% of drained Armor or Shields
      • Critical Chance: 0.0%
      • Critical Damage: 1.0x
      • Status Chance: 100.0%
        • on enemy hit shards will consume energized stacks on the target to grant the energized buff
        • shards count as weapons and can benefit from generic weapon buffs

Ability 4: Crush (tweaked)

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What Changed, and Why?
This ability fits Mag's theme and has lots of potential, however it is on the weaker end. The damage falls off very quickly as it's a flat value with a long cast time, preventing it from scaling well into high level content as a damage tool. With the effect of granting all allies shields and overshields it still retains it's main use, for utility and survivability. Outside of being used to refresh shields and overshields this ability relies on it's augment to be helpful. An ability should never have to rely on an augment mod to feel strong, so I added a small bit of oomph to emphasis synergy with other abilities. Polarize now being percentage based means Mag can already reach 100.0% Armor strip without much issue, so I also needed to give Fracturing Crush an update.
 

• Crush
  • Description:
    • Magnetize the bones of nearby enemies, causing their bodies to collapse upon themselves, while replenishing ally shields. Enemies that were previously affected by her other abilities will have their Energized stacks consumed to sunder their magnetic resistances.
       
  • Ability Stats & Functions:
    • Energy Cost: 100 Energy (affected by ability efficiency)
    • Cast Type: Activation, Self Radial
       
    • Crush Radius: 18.0m (affected by ability range)
    • Crush Damage (Hits 3x): 500 Magnetic Damage (affected by ability strength)
    • Crush Vulnerability Debuff: -25.0% Magnetic Damage resistance to Armor and Shields per consumed Energized stack
    • Crush Shields / Hit (Ally): 25 Shields (affected by ability strength)
      • crush vulnerability debuff can only trigger on each enemy once per cast, consuming all active stacks on the target when it does
      • crush vulnerability debuff is calculated for each specific target based on their consumed energized stacks
      • crush vulnerability debuff applies directly to both armor and shields, is permanent, and cannot exceed +100.0%
      • crush shield restore can replenish overshields

Augments:
I reworked all of the augments, a few had to be given entirely new effects because the base kit had some of their functions implemented into it. The main goal was to have each augment offer something fun and unique to her kit.

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• Greedy Pull -> Magnetized Munitions (Pull Augment):
  • Description:
    • Hold to cast will grant all allies within 15.0m an additional +100% Magnetic Damage to their attacks for 40.0s.
       
  • Mod Functions:
    • Cast Type: Activation, Self Radial
       
    • Buff Radius: 15.0m (affected by ability range)
    • Buff Duration: 40.0s (affected by ability duration)
    • Buff Type: +100.0% Magnetic Damage to all weapons (affected by ability strength)
      • gaining the buff with it already active will instead refresh the duration
        
         
• Magnetized Discharge -> Energizing Discharge (Magnetize Augment):
  • Description:
    • (Tap) Magnetize Damage consumes targets Energized stacks to increase current Magnetize duration by 5.0% of modded Magnetize duration; stacks up to 100.0% of modded Magnetize duration. (Hold) Magnetize Damage consumes Energized stacks to immediately grant 4 Energy to all allies within 10.0m for each stack consumed.
       
  • Mod Functions:
    • (Tap) Magnetize Duration Replenish: 5.0% of modded Magnetize duration
    • (Tap) Magnetize Duration Max: 100.0% of modded Magnetize duration (affected by ability duration)
    • (Hold) Blast Restore Radius: 10.0m (affected by ability range)
    • (Hold) Blast Restore: +4 Energy for each Energized mark consumed (affected by ability strength)
      
       
• Counter Pulse (Polarize Augment):
  • Description:
    • Enemy weapons are jammed, robotics disabled, and affected targets within 10.0m of one another are pulled toward each other with 1.0x Magnetic Pull strength for 4.0s.
       
  • Mod Functions:
    • Debuff Duration: 4.0s (affected by ability duration)
    • Magnetic Pull Radius: 10.0m (affected by ability range)
    • Magnetic Pull Strength: 1.0x (affected by ability strength)
      • magnetic pull does not bypass terrain
        
         
• Fracturing Crush (Crush Augment):
  • Description:
    • The weapons of surviving enemies are rendered unusable, permanently disarming them. Consumed Energized stacks now instead permanently fracture Armor and Shields for applicable targets.
       
  • Mod Functions:
    • Enemy Disarm Duration: permanent
    • Enemy Slow Duration: 7.0s (affected by ability duration)
    • Enemy Slow Strength: -40.0% Attack Speed to all targets (affected by ability strength)
    • Crush Vulnerability Debuff: -25.0% maximum Armor and Shields per Energized stack consumed
      • enemy slow strength cannot exceed 90.0%
      • crush vulnerability debuff replaces the standard debuff of crush

Final Thoughts
Mag is my favourite frame in the game, I've got thousands of hours playing just her, and I've even helped improve knowledge of poorly understood parts of her kit. I adore how Mag already is as a player, but as a game designer I understand that there's usually room to improve things and make them more fun. It would be incredible if Mag was to have any of these changes implemented, even partially! Thanks for reading, if you've got any input I'd love to hear it!

Edited October 1, 2023 by bnuy

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

As a Mag main, I see no issues with her at all. She shield gates without needing to mod for it which is already very good unless you want to nerf her. You're probably the first Mag user I've seen that mods for ability strength; usually people mod for range to create huge bubbles that pull most of the room. I could see a reason to mod for ability strength if your weapons aren't up to par. This is my go-to build for level cap endurance (https://overframe.gg/build/369097/mag-prime/shards-of-power-triple-augment-mag-post-veilbreaker-with-archon-shards/). With this build, you can 100% armor strip after getting the Molt Augmented buff from 250 kills; needing 100% isn't usually needed before then. She's received plenty of buffs and if they were to ever rework her, it should be last on the list. I suggest using another frame to fill your needs or for trying another play style. With the Helminth, you don't even need weapons to kill level cap enemies with her. I placed Breach Surge over Pull as I don't need it. To kill without weapons, cast Breach Surge and then follow up with Magnetize. Cast Polarize in her bubble and use Crush to armor strip and set off the Breach Surge sparks which are created from the shards and the damage from Crush. Breach Surge isn't needed at all but if you're playing in the Circuit and don't have access to good weapons, it's a great choice.

If you don't like to shield-gate, I'm not sure why you're playing Mag tbh. Install survivability mods on her and some archon shards for health/armor if don't want to cast as often. I personally use Amalgam Barrel Diffusion on my secondary for 60% dodge speed which increases the amount of time you have to do other things when invulnerable with Rolling Guard. Casting speed shards are a must imo for shield-gating as her default casting speeds are a tad slow. 

I'm not saying this is how Mag is supposed to be build but I'm just suggesting you try a different build or frame. Good luck!

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[bnuy]

2 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

You're probably the first Mag user I've seen that mods for ability strength; usually people mod for range to create huge bubbles that pull most of the room. I could see a reason to mod for ability strength if your weapons aren't up to par.

How do you know what I build? I'm confused...
I do mod for range, 235% + Magnetized Discharge, the same as your build.
I do also mod for strength yeah, but that's for 100% armor strip, which requires exactly 134% ability strength with Fracturing Crush.
My weapon builds are also up to par.
 

12 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

As a Mag main, I see no issues with her at all.

None... at all? Not even her passive?
I get that she's powerful, but that doesn't mean she has absolutely no flaws or areas that could be improved.
 

13 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

She shield gates without needing to mod for it which is already very good unless you want to nerf her. She's received plenty of buffs and if they were to ever rework her, it should be last on the list.

If you don't like to shield-gate, I'm not sure why you're playing Mag tbh. Install survivability mods on her and some archon shards for health/armor if don't want to cast as often.

She does shieldgate without needing to mod for it, yes, and that's fantastic! That doesn't mean it should be her only way to survive though, she should have a survivability tool baked into her kit, like some form of damage reduction to her shields, as I suggested.
She has received buffs, but again that doesn't maker her perfect.
I agree there are plenty of frames that need reworks much more than she ever would, she would be more than fine staying as she is, this is just a fun concept I wrote up because I enjoy her but see the areas her abilities could improve.

I do like shieldgate! I just wish that when I was doing endurance runs my shields themselves were able to hold up to some form of damage, it would give more emphasis to her overshields from Crush, as well as encourage modding for shield capacity.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

Sorry, I misspoke about her not having issues. Yes, her passive may be useless but most frames' passives are an afterthought for me as they rarely noticeable. I figured you modded for ability strength because of you mentioning armor stripping with Polarize instead of Crush with its augment. Polarize strips armor by a flat amount instead of a percentage and scales with ability strength. She does technically have some survivability baked with her alternate cast of her 2 (holding it down) which absorbs and redirects incoming projectiles. It doesn't protect you from melee attacks. Whether this is good is up for debate as her movement speed is cut drastically while it's in use, but it is serviceable if you need to protect yourself while your teammates finish killing around you or when you need a buffer to let Rolling Guard's cooldown finish. I personally haven't encounter "a stray bullet" hitting me while using it but then again, I don't often use the ability. I do see its uses however. If you use Adaptation, you're casting less to replenish your shields unless you're doing high level content outside the level ranges of base Steel Path. Her abilities/augments knock down, briefly stagger, disable robotics, and even disarm enemies. With a good energy pool, you can spam. Maybe you're arguing she needs a way to make Eximus units ineffective? This is where the Helminth comes in. A lot of frames became have this issue after Eximus were reworked. I'd argue no warframe kit is perfect and has ways to deal with every situations, which is a good thing imo. There should be an incentive to play all these other frames that DE's team has designed. I'd say her survivability is a lot better than some other frames. She does require a more attentive playstyle but she's just one frame out of 92 that ask for less engagement. 

What you said about not wanting Crush to NEED an augment, this can be said about most abilities on other frames. This whole augment system was designed with balance in mind. Again, whether or not this system was implemented well is up for debate but I'd say rework every ability that needs an augment if we're giving Mag special treatment.

I do like your write-up and I appreciate another Mag enthusiast.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[alchemystn2o]

When DE introduced "shield gating" and I thought "wow, Mag is actually can survive and no longer get one-shotted anymore.  Frames like Mag, Hildryn, Harrow and even Stynax (let me know if I miss someone) can benefit with this "mechanic" implemented by DE.  Also, augment mods essentially an afterthought for Mag, IMO.  Imagine Mag has all those powers given to her without augment mods, and then DE decided to give her additional augment mods with even better or alternative to her kits?!  She'll be beyond busted, IMO.  She is fine before and even better now after Pablo decided to "buff" her (although her current passive is doo-doo, IMO).  For me, it is all about proper synergy weapons/mods/arcanes/companions based on each faction.  Most Mag players I encountered just go for whatever they saw on YTs or Twitch streamers (which, by all means, not bad resources) recommended the load outs for her.   "Playing" Mag and "How" to Mag are not the same thing.  There are many ways to play Mag and there are no wrong ways to play her either.  In short, she is fine "as is".  Personally, I do not want Mag to be too popular.  If you know, you know.   Just my 3-cents. 

P.S. - I am not saying the suggestions by you guys are invalid.  They are sounded fantastic.  Mag mains/enthusiasts are rare these days.  I do not want Mag to be the best cuz DE loves to nerf for my own selfish reason.  😆

Edited September 22, 2023 by alchemystn2o

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

11 hours ago, bnuy said:

The issue with this is that without that shieldgating mechanic, Mag becomes incredibly frail

This is a sort of issue every warframe has that locks them into a playstyle that gets boring after a while, without this 1 thing frame useless. Its why i still want devil trigger in this game as it would add a universal way for all frames to survive or deal damage or whatever they lack in, just pick the sort of devil trigger or god mode you want to work towards and go crazy

Edited September 22, 2023 by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim

[bnuy]

4 hours ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

snip

I don't use Polarize for armor strip, I think you misunderstood where I was talking about that being with the changes, I'll make sure I clarify that wording.
Passives on older frames tend to be lacking, but some of the newer ones have interesting stuff going on.
During her hold cast of Magnetize she can be hit by explosives that land outside of the absorb radius, but also as previously mentioned some bullets manage to hit her. I feel like there's another important one I'm forgetting about right now...
Eximus and other units with Overguard are still affected by Counter Pulse.
Augments are balanced by costing a mod slot to grant a new function to an ability of yours, you sacrifice direct stat increases for new functions. That is right in line with these tweaks to the augments I suggest. Along with this, other augment mods being poorly designed is not an excuse to leave these ones outdated.

I appreciate all your feedback, I answered all the points to the best of my understanding.
 

7 hours ago, alchemystn2o said:

When DE introduced "shield gating" and I thought "wow, Mag is actually can survive and no longer get one-shotted anymore.  Frames like Mag, Hildryn, Harrow and even Stynax (let me know if I miss someone) can benefit with this "mechanic" implemented by DE.  Also, augment mods essentially an afterthought for Mag, IMO.  Imagine Mag has all those powers given to her without augment mods, and then DE decided to give her additional augment mods with even better or alternative to her kits?!  She'll be beyond busted, IMO.  She is fine before and even better now after Pablo decided to "buff" her (although her current passive is doo-doo, IMO).  For me, it is all about proper synergy weapons/mods/arcanes/companions based on each faction.  Most Mag players I encountered just go for whatever they saw on YTs or Twitch streamers (which, by all means, not bad resources) recommended the load outs for her.   "Playing" Mag and "How" to Mag are not the same thing.  There are many ways to play Mag and there are no wrong ways to play her either.  In short, she is fine "as is".  Personally, I do not want Mag to be too popular.  If you know, you know.   Just my 3-cents. 

P.S. - I am not saying the suggestions by you guys are invalid.  They are sounded fantastic.  Mag mains/enthusiasts are rare these days.  I do not want Mag to be the best cuz DE loves to nerf for my own selfish reason.  😆

She is incredibly strong as is, and would be totally okay without any of these changes, I'm just hoping DE will improve the quality of their reworks to old abilities to really bring out their full potential. It's makes sense to not want her to be popular, I enjoy being a part of a small community of people that use her myself.
Most Mag players as you mentioned unfortunately don't know how to properly synergize her loadout with her kit, but thankfully I've done the research myself and know all the best options for any given situation.

Thanks for the feedback! Have a good one. o7

[bnuy]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

This is a sort of issue every warframe has that locks them into a playstyle that gets boring after a while, without this 1 thing frame useless. Its why i still want devil trigger in this game as it would add a universal way for all frames to survive or deal damage or whatever they lack in, just pick the sort of devil trigger or god mode you want to work towards and go crazy

I think it's just an issue of having no inherent survivability in her kit. She lacks any form of significant EHP, which means without committing three mod slots to becoming a facetank, she's incredibly frail.
Every frame, regardless of being a tank or not, should have some form of survivability in their kit.
What doesn't help is that Overguard was a massive nerf to CC reliant frames, making CC unreliable for survivability at high levels due to mass amounts of Overguard/Eximus.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

56 minutes ago, bnuy said:

making CC unreliable for survivability at high levels due to mass amounts of Overguard/Eximus.

I feel this 1 so hard. I no longer enjoy playing any of the CC frames anymore ☹️

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

11 hours ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

As a Mag main, I see no issues with her at all. She shield gates without needing to mod for it which is already very good unless you want to nerf her. You're probably the first Mag user I've seen that mods for ability strength; usually people mod for range to create huge bubbles that pull most of the room. I could see a reason to mod for ability strength if your weapons aren't up to par. This is my go-to build for level cap endurance (https://overframe.gg/build/369097/mag-prime/shards-of-power-triple-augment-mag-post-veilbreaker-with-archon-shards/). With this build, you can 100% armor strip after getting the Molt Augmented buff from 250 kills; needing 100% isn't usually needed before then. She's received plenty of buffs and if they were to ever rework her, it should be last on the list. I suggest using another frame to fill your needs or for trying another play style. With the Helminth, you don't even need weapons to kill level cap enemies with her. I placed Breach Surge over Pull as I don't need it. To kill without weapons, cast Breach Surge and then follow up with Magnetize. Cast Polarize in her bubble and use Crush to armor strip and set off the Breach Surge sparks which are created from the shards and the damage from Crush. Breach Surge isn't needed at all but if you're playing in the Circuit and don't have access to good weapons, it's a great choice.

If you don't like to shield-gate, I'm not sure why you're playing Mag tbh. Install survivability mods on her and some archon shards for health/armor if don't want to cast as often. I personally use Amalgam Barrel Diffusion on my secondary for 60% dodge speed which increases the amount of time you have to do other things when invulnerable with Rolling Guard. Casting speed shards are a must imo for shield-gating as her default casting speeds are a tad slow. 

I'm not saying this is how Mag is supposed to be build but I'm just suggesting you try a different build or frame. Good luck!

With the linked build, how are you fully restoring her shields with 160% efficiency for the full 1.3 sec of invulnerability?

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

With the linked build, how are you fully restoring her shields with 160% efficiency for the full 1.3 sec of invulnerability?

Efficiency doesn't actually affect the amount of shields she gains, ability strength does. Before I reach 250 kills to get the ability strength buff from Molt Augmented, I can still replenish shields with Crush with enough enemies around. Polarize gives will give me 200 shields before the buff as well in case there weren't enough enemies around. When my shields break, I roll and then cast 3+4 which will fully restore my shields 99% of the time. If there's only 2 enemies shooting at me, then I'll sometimes have to cast Polarize again (it's the quickest of the two abilities, is one-handed cast, and gives a flat amount not dependent on the amount of enemies in range). This can all be done easily within the invulnerability period of Rolling Guard, especially if you use 2 casting speed archon shards. Use Amalgam Barrel Diffusion on your secondary for fast roll speed if you need it. It's a nice QoL for me.

At 110% ability strength, Polarize will give you 440 shields each cast. This is 10 shields shy of her 450 shield capacity. That's why you'll need to cast Crush after. Alternatively, you can just cast Crush at this point to fully restore shields and give overguard. However, I tend to cast both since Polarize replenishes shields for allies, disarms enemies, and disables robotics for 4 seconds with the augment. Because of the large amount of modded range and the fact that Crush does not need line of sight, you'll be getting overguard constantly. With the casting speed shards and Crush's augment, the ability will have 100% casting speed.

This is a very cast-heavy build and will take some time and practice getting used to but it's what I take to level cap endurance runs so it works quite well. Outside of endurance, there are arguably more comfy builds.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Give mag the ability to add magnetic damage by "removing" greedy pull, adding its functions to base pull, and just do the same thing than Venom Dose, Fireball augment, or Frost's 1st ability augment : you get a buff that's equal to 100% of your current ability strength as extra magnetic weapon damage. It's not really a good damage type though. But it's something? I guess?

Dunno really, I'm kind of mostly ok with what Mag is right now. Except maybe the shards thing, where Polarize can't produce any on enemies that no longer have any form of shields or armor.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

3 hours ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Efficiency doesn't actually affect the amount of shields she gains, ability strength does. Before I reach 250 kills to get the ability strength buff from Molt Augmented, I can still replenish shields with Crush with enough enemies around. Polarize gives will give me 200 shields before the buff as well in case there weren't enough enemies around. When my shields break, I roll and then cast 3+4 which will fully restore my shields 99% of the time. If there's only 2 enemies shooting at me, then I'll sometimes have to cast Polarize again (it's the quickest of the two abilities, is one-handed cast, and gives a flat amount not dependent on the amount of enemies in range). This can all be done easily within the invulnerability period of Rolling Guard, especially if you use 2 casting speed archon shards. Use Amalgam Barrel Diffusion on your secondary for fast roll speed if you need it. It's a nice QoL for me.

At 110% ability strength, Polarize will give you 440 shields each cast. This is 10 shields shy of her 450 shield capacity. That's why you'll need to cast Crush after. Alternatively, you can just cast Crush at this point to fully restore shields and give overguard. However, I tend to cast both since Polarize replenishes shields for allies, disarms enemies, and disables robotics for 4 seconds with the augment. Because of the large amount of modded range and the fact that Crush does not need line of sight, you'll be getting overguard constantly. With the casting speed shards and Crush's augment, the ability will have 100% casting speed.

This is a very cast-heavy build and will take some time and practice getting used to but it's what I take to level cap endurance runs so it works quite well. Outside of endurance, there are arguably more comfy builds.

I'm talking about brief respite and augur mods which are affected by efficiency and what most people use to shield gate along with decaying key. Polarize doesn't restore shields instantly and if you use brief respite and a certain efficiency, polarize fully restores shields twice which is why it's one of the best shield gate abilities along with condemn and pillage. However you use her however you want I was just curious.

Edited September 23, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[bnuy]

4 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Give mag the ability to add magnetic damage by "removing" greedy pull, adding its functions to base pull, and just do the same thing than Venom Dose, Fireball augment, or Frost's 1st ability augment : you get a buff that's equal to 100% of your current ability strength as extra magnetic weapon damage. It's not really a good damage type though. But it's something? I guess?

It may not be most people's optimal damage type, but neither is Frost's Freeze Force that grants 100% Cold Damage. The main draw of it as Mag herself is to buff her Polarize Shards with the damage, as weapon buffs like it will apply to them. A solid choice for making them shred shields with heavy Magnetic Damage and status effects, as well as making them buff Magnetize with even more damage.
 

4 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Dunno really, I'm kind of mostly ok with what Mag is right now. Except maybe the shards thing, where Polarize can't produce any on enemies that no longer have any form of shields or armor.

She is absolutely fine as is, I just think these small changes would polish her kit into a state where she could truly be considered a frame that is refined to the highest degree.
As someone else mentioned there are other frames actually in need of reworks, Mag isn't one of them, she's already very powerful as is. I just think these changes would make her much more engaging to play and adds lots of interesting synergies to consider.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

11 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Give mag the ability to add magnetic damage by "removing" greedy pull,

Aye no need to remove we got frames with multiple augs its cool

[bnuy]

19 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Aye no need to remove we got frames with multiple augs its cool

i think they were referring to how i made those changes in my thread, and summarizing them to make sure they understood correctly?
 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

 

On 2023-09-22 at 8:50 PM, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I'm talking about brief respite and augur mods which are affected by efficiency and what most people use to shield gate along with decaying key. Polarize doesn't restore shields instantly and if you use brief respite and a certain efficiency, polarize fully restores shields twice which is why it's one of the best shield gate abilities along with condemn and pillage. However you use her however you want I was just curious.

I understand what's needed to shield-gate on other frames. I just min-maxed the hell out of her by not using Brief Respite or any auger mods. When I play her, there is never a scenario where I would not cast both Crush and Polarize in immediate succession, even if my shields fully restored with one cast of polarize (which it does if I use Decaying Dragon Key). I do not use the key in the Star Chart because it's not necessary and it can't be used in Circuit. The swarm of level cap enemies pretty much requires constant crowd control so my build is perfect for me. Using normal shield-gating tactics on Mag is just such a waste of mod slots imo. 

Here's a video that shows gameplay of the build (not my video). 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Megazawr]

As someone who plays mag sometimes(against high levels too), I think she doesn't need a rework for anything but her passive, she only needs 2 bugs to be fixed:
1)2nd ability failing to cast on a ragdolled enemy
2)4th ability sometimes making you unable to cast abilities("ability in use" notifications) or use melee for a few seconds(can use guns tho).

Edited September 25, 2023 by Megazawr

[bnuy]

2 hours ago, Megazawr said:

As someone who plays mag sometimes(against high levels too), I think she doesn't need a rework for anything but her passive

She doesn't need a rework, I agree, these are just ideas that could improve her, because there are things that could still be improved about her kit.
 

2 hours ago, Megazawr said:

she only needs 2 bugs to be fixed:
1)2nd ability failing to cast on a ragdolled enemy
2)4th ability sometimes making you unable to cast abilities("ability in use" notifications) or use melee for a few seconds(can use guns tho).

You haven't noticed this bug?

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 hours ago, bnuy said:

She doesn't need a rework, I agree, these are just ideas that could improve her, because there are things that could still be improved about her kit.
 

You haven't noticed this bug?

I legitimately thought it was intended that magnetize stopped pulling in enemies because of how consistent it doesn't. It is a huge issue for me. Thanks for showing it's actually a bug. Had no idea.

[bnuy]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I legitimately thought it was intended that magnetize stopped pulling in enemies because of how consistent it doesn't. It is a huge issue for me. Thanks for showing it's actually a bug. Had no idea.

Nah it's a bug, it appeared like 3 years ago when they adjusted how the Magnetize pull effect worked to fix another bug, ironically enough.

[Megazawr]

6 hours ago, bnuy said:

You haven't noticed this bug?

Most of the time enemies in the bubble die very fast, and I don't know how big the pull radius is. But I saw some weird behavior with it.

2 hours ago, bnuy said:

when they adjusted how the Magnetize pull effect worked to fix another bug

reminds me of recent infinite combo with rauta fix. now you can't stack combo with rauta at all, until you hit enemy with your melee at least once.

[0Midas0]

I think Mag is in a great place, personally. She's incredibly destructive, casually annihilating steel path enemies like they're level 10s, and between blocking firing lines with magnetize and easy access to shield gating, she's very easy to survive with. Pulling enemies together in tight groups to kill means floods of energy/health orbs as well, and with equilibrium she has virtually unlimited energy. 

The only change I'd want to see currently is making her passive vacuum stack with other sources of item vacuum so it's not just overruled by common mods, and making her magnetize bubble not cancel if the target dies before it finishes casting. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by 0Midas0

[bnuy]

4 hours ago, 0Midas0 said:

I think Mag is in a great place, personally. She's incredibly destructive, casually annihilating steel path enemies like they're level 10s, and between blocking firing lines with magnetize and easy access to shield gating, she's very easy to survive with. Pulling enemies together in tight groups to kill means floods of energy/health orbs as well, and with equilibrium she has virtually unlimited energy. 

The only change I'd want to see currently is making her passive vacuum stack with other sources of item vacuum so it's not just overruled by common mods, and making her magnetize bubble not cancel if the target dies before it finishes casting. 

i agree, mag is in a great place, that doesn't mean she can't be improved or polished a bit more though
you really don't think any of my proposed changes would make her more interesting or fun? is there not a single issue i talked about that you agree with? 😭

[SteveCutler]

My biggest problem with Mag is how squishy she is. It feels awful playing frames that don't have any DR. Any frame can get health or armor, but that alone isn't enough to comfortably tank on Steel Path; it needs to be combined with DR. Spamming abilities every two nanoseconds to exploit shield gating isn't my idea of a fun time...