Please Add More Helminth Armor Strips

[CrownOfShadows]

This is a request for more helminth armor strip abilities.

We only have Pillage, Tharros, Fire Blast and Terrify.

1. Tharros is limited by it's directionality and limited targets, but is bolstered by it's heal and for being guaranteed 100%
2. Fire Blast suffers from being capped at 75% making it the worst option.
3. Terrify suffers from being expensive at 75 energy, from being temporary, for having poor range and a limited number of targets, and for causing all your targets to run away, which is rarely desirable. You strip them because you want to kill them, not because you want them to run away get their armor back and then return lol. Also, it STILL does not work on some units it should.
4. Pillage is of course the best, it gives you shields, drains the enemies, and can fully armor strip if you get crazy power.

Typically, the choice just comes down to Pillage and Tharros.

We need armor strip available for most warframes in high content. Please provide more options.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 13 minutes, CrownOfShadows a dit :

We only have Pillage, Tharros, Fire Blast and Terrify.

Also Seeking Shuriken and Tempest Barrage (specially after the rework), but these are even worse for armor strip than the ones you've mentioned.

il y a 13 minutes, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Fire Blast suffers from being capped at 75% making it the worst option.

Fire Blast also suffers from some bugs that prevent enemies to have their armor stripped correctly and will not strip some enemies' armor (Acolytes, as an exemple). So, it's even worse than one could imagine.

il y a 13 minutes, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Pillage is of course the best, it gives you shields, drains the enemies, and can fully armor strip if you get crazy power.

I agree, the problem is that, when the armor is fully stripped (after some casts if you do not have a lot of power strength) the ability becomes almost useless (this is a problem only on some SP survivals).

 

il y a 13 minutes, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Tharros is limited by it's directionality and limited targets, but is bolstered by it's heal and for being guaranteed 100%

And also for being a full defense stripping ability.

il y a 13 minutes, CrownOfShadows a dit :

We need armor strip available for most warframes in high content. Please provide more options.

I vote for 👍.

Edited September 29, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[Tiltskillet]

24 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

We need armor strip available for most warframes in high content. Please provide more options.

I don't object to more getting added over time, but between Terrify, Tharros, Pillage, and Unairu (and occasionally the Argonak augment/Shattering) it hasn't felt to me like a critical lack. 

I guess one thing that comes to mind is improving the other options we have. Shuriken, and thence its augment, could really use a buff.  Presumably Fire Blast too, but I essentially haven't used the ability.

[LittleLeoniePrime]

If anything we need (more/better) DR on Helminth becaus we have 2 options right now and it's Defy which sucks when infused in other frames and Parasitic armor which isn't great either...

[CrownOfShadows]

5 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't object to more getting added over time, but between Terrify, Tharros, Pillage, and Unairu (and occasionally the Argonak augment/Shattering) it hasn't felt to me like a critical lack. 

I guess one thing that comes to mind is improving the other options we have. Shuriken, and thence its augment, could really use a buff.  Presumably Fire Blast too, but I essentially haven't used the ability.

Well, all my frames are SP ready. Most need an armor strip. I'm tired of putting pillage on everything. Yes it's good. No, I don't really want it on every single frame.

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well, all my frames are SP ready. Most need an armor strip. I'm tired of putting pillage on everything. Yes it's good. No, I don't really want it on every single frame.

Stop putting Pillage on every single frame, lol.

I'll just point out that the fact you feel compelled to do so could just as well indicate Pillage is too strong as a Helminth option...  

/prepares to have things thrown at face... :P

[CrownOfShadows]

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Stop putting Pillage on every single frame, lol.

I'll just point out that the fact you feel compelled to do so could just as well indicate Pillage is too strong as a Helminth option...  

/prepares to have things thrown at face... :P

I need armor strip dude

[Pakaku]

The question is what could be added that can compete with Pillage, which is not only an easy one-tap defense strip in an AOE, but is also a defense restore on yourself. Especially now that modding for high shields has finally been fixed and balanced

 

9 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'll just point out that the fact you feel compelled to do so could just as well indicate Pillage is too strong as a Helminth option...  

No, you're not wrong. A decent number of Helminth abilities in general need looking at. Some are way too overtuned and become the only options most people consider.

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, Pakaku said:

No, you're not wrong. A decent number of Helminth abilities in general need looking at. Some are way too overtuned and become the only options most people consider.

Yeah, Pillage is one of the best examples of an ability that should be weaker when injected.  Although I don't completely understand Crown's dismissal of other forms of strip.  Tharros and Terrify can be the best options on some builds, and Unairu can get added to most builds that don't have room in Helminth.

I don't have a problem with more options getting added.  But if somebody isn't going to be satisfied with options unless they're just as good and versatile as Pillage, or better...that's not a promising attitude, AFAIC.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yeah, Pillage is one of the best examples of an ability that should be weaker when injected.  Although I don't completely understand Crown's dismissal of other forms of strip.  Tharros and Terrify can be the best options on some builds, and Unairu can get added to most builds that don't have room in Helminth.

I don't have a problem with more options getting added.  But if somebody isn't going to be satisfied with options unless they're just as good and versatile as Pillage, or better...that's not a promising attitude, AFAIC.

I listed the problems with Terrify, are you saying those problems are not real problems? It has some niche uses, yes. If someone wanted to, could they make it work on everything? SURE. Is it a good general option? NO.

Tharros is good, I use it. As I said in the OP, it usually comes down to Tharros or Pillage. Tharros is just not as good as Pillage, full stop. Tharros is only better if you prefer the heal, and sometimes I do.

The MOUNTAIN of other options you seem to be trying to build is real nice and all. Yes there are other things that strip armor or bypass armor, we get it. You don't need to do the usual forum contrarianism... "ACTUALLY..... you forgot the 36 other ways of doing that and therefore you're wrong and an idiot".... yeah man, I know. Just be real. It's pillage, or occasionally tharros, and we need more. Do they need to be as strong as pillage or tharros? Not necessarily, but what's the problem if they are exactly?

[Tiltskillet]

4 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You don't need to do the usual forum contrarianism... "ACTUALLY..... you forgot the 36 other ways of doing that and therefore you're wrong and an idiot".... yeah man, I know.

ACTUALLY... I didn't do that. :P

[CrownOfShadows]

14 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

ACTUALLY... I didn't do that. :P

Well it sure felt like that's where we were headed, implying I was wrongfully dismissive of all the other ways of getting around armor, even mentioning the argonak, like bruh.

46 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Although I don't completely understand Crown's dismissal of other forms of strip.  Tharros and Terrify can be the best options on some builds, and Unairu can get added to most builds that don't have room in Helminth.

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't object to more getting added over time, but between Terrify, Tharros, Pillage, and Unairu (and occasionally the Argonak augment/Shattering) it hasn't felt to me like a critical lack.

-----------------

Unairu is ok, but quite simply people might want other schools. I run vazarin on my Citrine for example. I also want an armor strip on her. Guess how I solve that? Some energy hungry frames really still need zenurik, and some of them need armor strip too. How do I solve that? I run madurai on a few, guess how I solve that? I run naramon on a few, guess how I solve that? Asking players to forget all that and just use Unairu isn't realistic. Also, jumping into operator everytime you want to armor strip - which at SP high levels is all the time - gets really old really fast.

This post was inspired because I was just now creating a fun build, ran some Circulus, realized I didn't have a helminth, asked myself what it needed - as usual, it definitely needed an armor strip. I looked at the options. Guess which one I used? Not just because it's strong, but because it's one of only 2 options. Are their technically 4 or 5 or 10 or 50? Yeah. Are their realistically only two? Yeah.

[Leqesai]

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Tempest Barrage (specially after the rework),

How is Tempest Barrage an armor strip ability after the rework?

In the hands of Hydroid it is, but not as a helminth ability AFAIK. It only strips armor on Hydroid because of his passive paired with corrosive procs, right?

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well it sure felt like that's where we were headed, implying I was wrongfully dismissive of all the other ways of getting around armor, even mentioning the argonak, like bruh.

The Argonak approach is extremely niche, but if you don't know, it's quite good at stripping with a gas or electric build on the dagger.

Anyway, I listed things I actually use with any frequency, rather than a comprehensive list, or to suggest things you should prefer.  The purpose was to explain why I don't feel a "critical lack"--my words-- of strip options.

5 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Guess which one I used? Not just because it's strong, but because it's one of only 2 options. Are their technically 4 or 5 or 10 or 50? Yeah. Are their realistically only two? Yeah.

I don't fathom your complete dismissal of Terrify.  Base 15m radial strip that doesn't depend on LoS is something I find useful.  Yeah, it's got significant disadvantages too, I'm well aware of them.   Can you guess why I am?  Because I use it a lot...and I don't play Nekros, lol.    But  pros and cons are a good thing, and Pillage is somewhat lacking in that balance.

[Keyhound]

gotta have to completely disagree with more abilities armor stripping on helminth, we already have a ton of them, what we need is survival abilities instead. i still defend that we should've gotten either shatter shield from mesa or turbulence from zephyr.

 

the only real DR we actually have are not as good when helminthed. like nova's or wukong's. those are abilities that work best with those frames, but are kinda bad when put on others.

 

many other frames also already have some form of armor/shield stripping. like mag, nyx or vauban.

[Qriist]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Pillage is too strong as a Helminth option...  

I use Pillage on a couple frames and even I have admitted just how powerful it is.

[CrownOfShadows]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't fathom your complete dismissal of Terrify.  Base 15m radial strip that doesn't depend on LoS is something I find useful.  Yeah, it's got significant disadvantages too, I'm well aware of them.   Can you guess why I am?  Because I use it a lot...and I don't play Nekros, lol.    But  pros and cons are a good thing, and Pillage is somewhat lacking in that balance.

I agree that pillage is an overstacked ability. But compared to Tharros strike, which is also overstacked compared to legacy abilities, it's not really that much overpowered, because Tharros takes almost no effort to get to 100% strip, whereas pillage requires a lot of power or a lot of spam (and some range). Tharros is cheap, doesn't strain builds at all, and is very reliable (except for sometimes it can struggle to connect with the desired enemy in dense clusters). The only real reason pillage is so much preferred over tharros is because it's radial and strips everything in all directions. Both are contemptible compared with Xaku though, so it kinda depends on where you put the bar. Personally I think pillage and tharros are fine, and I'd bring fire blast up to par with them rather than nerf them.

As for terrify, in addition to all the problems I've already listed, it's simply unreliable. There's no control over which enemies are armor stripped - it's very much like a random armor strip, which is not something I want. If soul punch wasn't such total trash, would I helminth pillage over terrify on nekros? yup. Also it's worth noting that if you cast terrify and strip 60% armor casting it again may not get rid of the other 40% because it prioritizes unaffected enemies.

Some simple QoL fixes for terrify would go a long, long way in making terrify serviceable.

Until that day it's inconvenient, untrustworthy, expensive to use, requires strength and range and duration to work, doesn't last and has too many important exceptions.

 

[Qriist]

45 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Unairu is ok, but quite simply people might want other schools. I run vazarin on my Citrine for example. I also want an armor strip on her. Guess how I solve that? Some energy hungry frames really still need zenurik, and some of them need armor strip too. How do I solve that?

I personally run Nourish on my Citrine over her Fractured Blast. The trick to pushing Citrine's damage is a fast firing weapon with punchthrough. I personally use an Incarnoned Boltor Prime to great effect.

[CrownOfShadows]

8 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

gotta have to completely disagree with more abilities armor stripping on helminth, we already have a ton of them

We what now? A TON you say? REALLY? Maybe I didn't see them. Please, list them all, if the page can possibly hold them!

9 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

what we need is survival abilities instead. i still defend that we should've gotten either shatter shield from mesa or turbulence from zephyr.

the only real DR we actually have are not as good when helminthed. like nova's or wukong's. those are abilities that work best with those frames, but are kinda bad when put on others.

2 hours ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

If anything we need (more/better) DR on Helminth becaus we have 2 options right now and it's Defy which sucks when infused in other frames and Parasitic armor which isn't great either...

Yeah, more DR options would be welcome too.

[Qriist]

5 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Both are contemptible compared with Xaku though

I find Xaku's Gaze to be unweildy in missions types where you have to travel from point A to point B. (Exterminate, Capture, Rescue, etc)

It's absolutely fantastic in survival and defense though.

[Keyhound]

5 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I agree that pillage is an overstacked ability. But compared to Tharros strike, which is also overstacked compared to legacy abilities, it's not really that much overpowered, because Tharros takes almost no effort to get to 100% strip, whereas pillage requires a lot of power or a lot of spam (and some range). Tharros is cheap, doesn't strain builds at all, and is very reliable (except for sometimes it can struggle to connect with the desired enemy in dense clusters). The only real reason pillage is so much preferred over tharros is because it's radial and strips everything in all directions. Both are contemptible compared with Xaku though, so it kinda depends on where you put the bar. Personally I think pillage and tharros are fine, and I'd bring fire blast up to par with them rather than nerf them.

As for terrify, in addition to all the problems I've already listed, it's simply unreliable. There's no control over which enemies are armor stripped - it's very much like a random armor strip, which is not something I want. If soul punch wasn't such total trash, would I helminth pillage over terrify on nekros? yup. Also it's worth noting that if you cast terrify and strip 60% armor casting it again may not get rid of the other 40% because it prioritizes unaffected enemies.

Some simple QoL fixes for terrify would go a long, long way in making terrify serviceable.

Until that day it's inconvenient, untrustworthy, expensive to use, requires strength and range and duration to work, doesn't last and has too many important exceptions.

 

sure, but its not like it need that much power to get to 100% with terrify, i belive its around 160 str. the real problem is that it doesnt work on some more troublesome enemies. when other stipping abilities do. to me, terrify is just a "oh sht" button but with the ability of going invisible with operator, it lost alot of its use for helping save fallen allies or something similar.

 

as a side note, corrosive barrage may not full strip, but it allowing for corrosive and viral procs will give frames that can armor strip some cool potential for condition overload. specially if you put gas on the melee.

[Qriist]

3 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

sure, but its not like it need that much power to get to 100% with terrify, i belive its around 160 str. the real problem is that it doesnt work on some more troublesome enemies. when other stipping abilities do. to me, terrify is just a "oh sht" button but with the ability of going invisible with operator, it lost alot of its use for helping save fallen allies or something similar.

If DE gifted Terrify a scalable damage vulnerability ala Nezha's Blazing Chakram then I think it would justify the 75 energy cost in Current Year Warframe.

This would synergize with Nekros' own minion-oriented kit but also give Terrify an interesting twist to distinguish it from other armor strip abilities.

[Tiltskillet]

31 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

The only real reason pillage is so much preferred over tharros is because it's radial and strips everything in all directions.

I'd call shield restore another real reason.  Tharros has healing, but generally that's easy to get elsewhere.  And isn't vital to as many builds.

[Keyhound]

13 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

We what now? A TON you say? REALLY? Maybe I didn't see them. Please, list them all, if the page can possibly hold them!

Yeah, more DR options would be welcome too.

lets see:

shuriken.

fireblast.

pillage.

tempest barrage.(even though its not 100% it still reduces armor alot, specially with corrosive projection aura in the party)

terrify.

tharros strike.

 

6 abilities, 5 if you dont count tempest barrage. but, like i said, its not like other frames dont have armor strip besides those, for example, gauss thermal sunder can armor strip when in redline, frost avalanche can as well, nyx's had one of the best armor strips for a long time, oberon,  grendel, trinity, caliban. and so on.

 

so its not fair to just talk about armor stripping with helminth as if it was a necessity for every frame. and in some cases like zephyr or baruuk, its not like you even care about the enemy armor either... any ability that can put enemies to sleep and open to finishers is maybe even more usefull against most enemies as well.

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'd call shield restore another real reason.  Tharros has healing, but generally that's easy to get elsewhere.  And isn't vital to as many builds.

it's shield restore will become even more appealing after the shield gate rework, as more people will be using bigger shield pools as well.

[Keyhound]

17 minutes ago, Qriist said:

If DE gifted Terrify a scalable damage vulnerability ala Nezha's Blazing Chakram then I think it would justify the 75 energy cost in Current Year Warframe.

This would synergize with Nekros' own minion-oriented kit but also give Terrify an interesting twist to distinguish it from other armor strip abilities.

technically, terrify is also a CC, specially with its aug, that basically petrify enemies as well. i think its fair to call that an "interesting twist". its also incredibly usefull for many other mission types, like interception and defense(specially the ones with people instead of a defend point).