Can we get a "Riven Vault"?

[Valfaun]

So, like probably many other players, I'm kind of a Riven collector. I very rarely sell them, I just like to... have them around for one reason or another. Maybe it's for an interesting weapon that I might want to try and occasionally use for fun at some point, or a weapon that I have hopes for in the future (e.g. Disposition changes, stronger variants, general buffs). Sometimes I just keep a Riven because the stats are funny, like +Magazine Size for the Penta. 

I have already unlocked and bought all 180 Riven slots that we're (currently) allowed to have and, well, there are simply more Rivens than slots. Unveiling Rivens is fun, always hoping for a good one. But everytime I get a new Riven I have to go through my entire collection and find something I can "live without" to free up a slot. And it gets harder and harder to do that. 

I honestly don't know why there's a limit to Riven slots, if DE ever explained it, but what if we had a kind of "cold storage" for Rivens? i.e. we have our limited active Riven slots that we can do with as we please, and then there would be a vault where we can move Rivens to that we don't need ready access to. Those Rivens cannot be equipped, cycled, traded or otherwise interacted with, just browsed. Putting them in there is instant, but retrieving them could incur a 24 hour delay and be limited to 1 Riven at a time. For all I care there could even be some sort of resource cost to move them to and from the vault. Like... a bit of Cryotic to "freeze" a Riven and a Diluted Thermia to "unfreeze" one. Or an Orokin Cipher to "encrypt" and a Cryptographic ALU (better stock up while you can) to "decrypt". Idk, something like that

[SDGDen]

the reason for paid slots for basically everything is that server space is not free. DE has to pay for all the computers that store your account data, so anything that is storage intensive (such as storing mods with randomized stats, values, polarities and MR locks) needs it's storage paid for, that's through slots. that's also why weapon slots, warframe slots, companion slots and loadout slots are all generally paid and very limited otherwise.

this is also why you wouldn't be able to "freeze" rivens in a vault since they'd still have to be stored somewhere. and why veiled rivens that don't have their challenge revealed don't count against the cap (since you can simply store them as "pistol riven" with a count of how many you have for example) 

the best thing DE can do is increase the riven slot cap if their account storage solution allows for it, alternatively you could loan out some of your rivens to friends or something i guess? 

 

[S2Weak]

2小時前 , SDGDen 說:

the reason for paid slots for basically everything is that server space is not free.

I feel like this is not a good excuse for item slots. There are many free-to-play MMORPG with comparable, if not more, weapon/item complexity and free (or significantly bigger) backpacks.

Also every mission is hosted by player instead of DE's server, which is a huge save.

Edited October 2, 2023 by S2Weak

[PollexMessier]

The riven limit is because Rivens take up a comparatively large amount of data because of their random stats.

Your suggestion doesn't do anything to solve that because that data still needs to exist for you to be able to retrieve them.

[SolStreak]

1 hour ago, S2Weak said:

Also every mission is hosted by player instead of DE's server, which is a huge save.

Hosting has nothing to do with saving a data to server.

Using metaphor, with puppets as the metaphor for the data. Hosting is like attaching strings to a puppet, so the puppet can be moved in a play. Server is the compartment where all the puppets are saved when the play ends, with the strings detached beforehand.

Imagine everytime a play happen, a new puppet with unique appearance is made. That way, the compartment needs to be bigger to contain all the unique puppets that exist.

Edited October 2, 2023 by SolStreak

[S2Weak]

1分鐘前 , SolStreak 說:

Hosting has nothing to do with saving a data to server.

What I mean by "a huge save" is saving money.

[SolStreak]

1 minute ago, S2Weak said:

What I mean by "a huge save" is saving money.

Oh right my bad, I thought you mean a huge save file lol

[Fred_Avant_2019]

I've unlocked my last slots today. Feels bad knowing I'll never be able to get rivens on certain weapons that would need one.

That being said, I doubt there's that many players buying enough slots to reach the cap, but would need actual stats to confirm it.

I'd just like more slots to have a chance at least one per weapon.

[Packetdancer]

10 hours ago, Valfaun said:

I honestly don't know why there's a limit to Riven slots, if DE ever explained it, but what if we had a kind of "cold storage" for Rivens? i.e. we have our limited active Riven slots that we can do with as we please, and then there would be a vault where we can move Rivens to that we don't need ready access to

I can answer this one!

When it comes to normal mods, all that needs to be stored is a mod ID (such as whatever maps to "Primed Shred") and the rank it's been leveled to. This is a very small piece of data, because every copy of Primed Shred has the same polarity, cost-per-rank, and stats at each rank; that data can thus be built into the game itself. It's also a lot easier to work with, because when you're sending data about a mod being traded (or the mods equipped on something), you only need to send the mod ID and the rank.

Every riven, however, is unique; you can't point to a single bit of already-in-the-game data, because it needs to store:

• The weapon family it is for.
• The polarity.
• The base mastery rank.
• The number of times it has been rerolled.
• The current stats it has.
• The rank it's been leveled to.

Every time you refer to the riven -- for trading, for stats calculation during gameplay, etc. -- all that data needs to be shared. (And stored on the servers, so that you have the same rivens when you log back in next time.)

Moreover, you probably don't want to let the client be authoritative for what a riven is (or anything else, for that matter), or else people could do some very cheaty things and be like "Sure yes, I have a riven for the Corufell that gives me +200% melee damage and stuff, honest, trust me." Meaning you also probably need to have the various clients query the game servers to get the riven data when they are introduced to a riven. That's considerably more traffic than just "I have a rank 10 Primed Shred" to fly around back and forth.

Conversely, rivens that have not even had their challenge revealed yet? Those can be just a "Melee Riven" or "Shotgun Riven" mod ID, which doesn't need any custom data -- revealing the challenge is what turns it into something unique, which is why it's the stage at which it consumes a riven slot.

In short, the limitations are almost certainly for reasons of storage where rivens are concerned, not actual gameplay. A "riven vault" to freeze them into doesn't reduce the amount of storage in use, so it doesn't really address the problem the limit is there to solve. And if you still allow them to be traded/re-rolled/etc., it doesn't even take it out of consideration as far as "clients will need to query the servers for all this data". So a vault doesn't actually address the problem the riven mod limit is presumably intended to solve.

So I'm not terribly surprised that there's a limit of 180 active rivens per player.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Packetdancer

[Tiltskillet]

18 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

I can answer this one!

When it comes to normal mods, all that needs to be stored is a mod ID (such as whatever maps to "Primed Shred") and the rank it's been leveled to. This is a very small piece of data, because every copy of Primed Shred has the same polarity, cost-per-rank, and stats at each rank; that data can thus be built into the game itself. It's also a lot easier to work with, because when you're sending data about a mod being traded (or the mods equipped on something), you only need to send the mod ID and the rank.

Every riven, however, is unique; you can't point to a single bit of already-in-the-game data, because it needs to store:

• The weapon family it is for.
• The polarity.
• The base mastery rank.
• The number of times it has been rerolled.
• The current stats it has.
• The rank it's been leveled to.

Every time you refer to the riven -- for trading, for stats calculation during gameplay, etc. -- all that data needs to be shared. (And stored on the servers, so that you have the same rivens when you log back in next time.)

Moreover, you probably don't want to let the client be authoritative for what a riven is (or anything else, for that matter), or else people could do some very cheaty things and be like "Sure yes, I have a riven for the Corufell that gives me +200% melee damage and stuff, honest, trust me." Meaning you also probably need to have the various clients query the game servers to get the riven data when they are introduced to a riven. That's considerably more traffic than just "I have a rank 10 Primed Shred" to fly around back and forth.

Conversely, rivens that have not even had their challenge revealed yet? Those can be just a "Melee Riven" or "Shotgun Riven" mod ID, which doesn't need any custom data -- revealing the challenge is what turns it into something unique, which is why it's the stage at which it consumes a riven slot.

In short, the limitations are almost certainly for reasons of storage where rivens are concerned, not actual gameplay. A "riven vault" to freeze them into doesn't reduce the amount of storage in use, so it doesn't really address the problem the limit is there to solve. And if you still allow them to be traded/re-rolled/etc., it doesn't even take it out of consideration as far as "clients will need to query the servers for all this data". So a vault doesn't actually address the problem the riven mod limit is presumably intended to solve.

So I'm not terribly surprised that there's a limit of 180 active rivens per player.

That's very informative, thank you.

Would they be able to save a significant amount of storage by removing the decimals from the affixes?  Making the mastery rank fixed at 8?  Reducing the mod rank to two states: unranked and maxed?

[Pakaku]

It's not just storage that costs DE, but also apparently it costs them every time a Riven is loaded. If that's the case, cold storage could be a great cost-saving solution because you wouldn't keep loading your excess rivens every time you look at your inventory or so.

I just wish transmuters were easier to get. Then it would feel less of a waste to sell rivens to make room, since trading is next to impossible for anything that isn't immediately a meta weapon riven

Edited October 2, 2023 by Pakaku

[Packetdancer]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

That's very informative, thank you.

Would they be able to save a significant amount of storage by removing the decimals from the affixes?  Making the mastery rank fixed at 8?  Reducing the mod rank to two states: unranked and maxed?

Not really, in all honesty. Largely because the affixes don't actually store floating point values, so far as I know. My understanding is that the affixes are stored as an integer value within a given range between a minimum and maximum value; the affix values we actually see are calculated given the disposition of the weapon it's slotted on and such.

In other words, it's not like the riven for a Paris family weapon actually stores different values for the Mk1-Paris, Paris, and Paris Prime; it calculates the minimum and maximum values for the weapon, and then uses the affix as an offset within that space.

Moreover, even if they made mastery rank a fixed value and mod rank be a single boolean, I suspect the bulk of the data is actually in storing the weapon family. And the issue is less that each individual riven takes up space, but rather that when every player has a bunch of rivens, that in aggregate takes up a ton of space.

Plus (as Pakaku notes), it's a ton of extra traffic every time your inventory is synced with the server.

6 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

It's not just storage that costs DE, but also apparently it costs them every time a Riven is loaded. If that's the case, cold storage could be a great cost-saving solution because you wouldn't keep loading your rivens every time you look at your inventory or so.

Sure, that reduces the overhead of loading rivens (which is probably considerable). But folks were suggesting a vault where you could still re-roll rivens and still trade them. Meaning they're still part of your inventory, you just couldn't slot them as mods. And that doesn't actually solve the problems the riven limit is presumably meant to address; if you can still look at them, reroll them, and trade them, then they're still in your inventory and still need to be treated as such.

For a "cold storage" method to actually lessen the data-transfer overhead, you'd need to literally lock them away entirely in a vault; you'd have to free up slots and bring them out into "active riven" state again to reroll or trade, and you could only view what rivens were in "cold storage" from a special vaulting screen (meaning that's the only time you need to transfer all that data, rather than making it part of normal inventory sync).

And it still wouldn't lessen the storage overhead, as you need the data stored in order to be able to retrieve the riven from cold storage.

[quxier]

8 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

I can answer this one!

When it comes to normal mods, all that needs to be stored is a mod ID (such as whatever maps to "Primed Shred") and the rank it's been leveled to. This is a very small piece of data, because every copy of Primed Shred has the same polarity, cost-per-rank, and stats at each rank; that data can thus be built into the game itself. It's also a lot easier to work with, because when you're sending data about a mod being traded (or the mods equipped on something), you only need to send the mod ID and the rank.

Every riven, however, is unique; you can't point to a single bit of already-in-the-game data, because it needs to store:

• The weapon family it is for.
• The polarity.
• The base mastery rank.
• The number of times it has been rerolled.
• The current stats it has.
• The rank it's been leveled to.

Every time you refer to the riven -- for trading, for stats calculation during gameplay, etc. -- all that data needs to be shared. (And stored on the servers, so that you have the same rivens when you log back in next time.)

In short, the limitations are almost certainly for reasons of storage where rivens are concerned, not actual gameplay. A "riven vault" to freeze them into doesn't reduce the amount of storage in use, so it doesn't really address the problem the limit is there to solve. And if you still allow them to be traded/re-rolled/etc., it doesn't even take it out of consideration as far as "clients will need to query the servers for all this data". So a vault doesn't actually address the problem the riven mod limit is presumably intended to solve.

So I'm not terribly surprised that there's a limit of 180 active rivens per player.

It's indeed much more data to be stored/transfered but it's still nothing. I heavily doubt it's the reason.

Look at current situations. You have frames, weapons and companion. All of those has mod's section (mod list, ranks, polarities), appearance (color of main item, few slots used on items, like Syandana or Glyph, their colors as well, idle animation etc; and color is not something like 3 RGB values - ~3 bytes, it's color id & its group). All of those have 3 configs at least (so 3x more potential data). Not sure how much of that data has to be transfered on arsenal access but it's still much bigger than riven mod. And you know, that's "fine". There is some reason for it to be loaded (so player can see/mod a frame, don't have to wait too long etc). But what DE does when you want quick visit to e.g. Simulacrum? They go and load: whole relay (appearance), connections (who is in the relay), frames/companions (their looks, so at least 1 full config), potentially weapons (not sure if they are visible). And why would you ask? So when I fast travel into e.g. Simulacrum I see game more lively. Yeah, it's waste of transfer.

[DrkPa1n]

https://gyazo.com/cfeeed2e1398833a1575f908acfff8f1  Years of fighting for a little space, selling what is now worth a lot, selling badly to get by, now I collect veiled mods. I refuse to create a closet account just for this, since the game forces you to work too many hours to do extra hours.
I always thought something like that, another chamber to store rivens, even if I had the handicap of not being able to move them for 1 week or something like that. Just to be able to reveal others. I guess this is fine if they don't change it.

Edited October 3, 2023 by DrkPa1n

[Valfaun]

So what y'all are saying is, there's a finite amount of Riven slots per player because it costs them money to store the Riven data. That makes sense, yes. But then my next thought is: does that mean there's also a finite amount of player accounts they can support? Because they do have to allow every single account that's created to get those 180 slots, right? And since Warframe is technically a free to play game and Platinum for Riven slots can be traded for, there's a good chance that a significant amount of accounts will not financially contribute to maintain DE's server infrastructure, not regularly or maybe even not at all. 

So... idk guys, limiting Riven slots to 180 to put a cap on the amount of account data that needs to be stored sounds plausible at first, but ultimately feels like a weak excuse to me. If storing Riven data is that expensive then maybe they need to take steps to optimize them a bit if possible. Not introducing new resources with every update would also help a bit to cut down on account data...

Honestly, I'd even pay them like... $4.99 a month to get rid of slot caps

[(NSW)JCLegendary]

I'd love to see Rivens reworked some day to become a core part of the game, instead of the burden on server space they seem to be now.

[(XBOX)ParcaSinietro]

En 5/10/2023 a las 1:59, (NSW)JCLegendary dijo:

I'd love to see Rivens reworked some day to become a core part of the game, instead of the burden on server space they seem to be now.

I just had an idea about a riven rework:

-When you obtain a veiled riven for a specific category (p.e pistols) it shows you what weapon it’s meant for(p.e Seer) when you get back to the orbiter (same as the completion of the challenge to unveil it).

-You still need kuva to reroll and get different stats. You can’t lock any stat when rerolling.

-Instead of leveling the riven with endo/credits you would level it up through riven challenges (you can skip those with a riven cipher per challenge)

-The riven will have 4 different levels:

•Level 0(veiled): the riven has no stats and 0 cost. You have to complete the first challenge to get the stats. You can only put it in the weapon/s that is meant for.

•Level 1: the riven now has random stats with the minimum value of those stats (p.e Seer’s minimum crit chance bonus= +167.1%) and 18 cost with a random polarity. Need to complete another challenge for level 2.

•Level 2: the riven increase the stats values to a medium tier (p.e Seer’s medium crit chance bonus= +185.6%). Need to complete another challenge for level 3.

•Level 3: the riven increase the stats values to the max(p.e Seer’s maximum crit chance bonus= +204.2%) 

-Note: the Seer stats values are from Semlar.com

-Objetives of this rework:

•The rivens would have an incarnon-style progression system, making them easier to understand.

•It reduces the number of stats variations of every stat down to 3 (low, mid and high).

•It heavily reduces the grind of “god rolls” (referring to max stats value), reducing the effective cost of the rivens that the “Riven Mafia” are trying to sell you for an absurd amount of platinum.

Edit:

-To balance it, I thought about increasing the mastery requirement by 2 per level

-Example: Daikyu riven

• At level 1: Mastery 10

•At level 2: Mastery 12

•At level 3: Mastery 14

Edited October 26, 2023 by (XBOX)ParcaSinietro
Grammar; New addition

[Until-The-End]

I want more rivens slots, even if I have to pay.
I'm not good at English, but I wanted to say this.
thank you.