Augment Slot

[quxier]

On 2023-10-11 at 4:15 PM, (PSN)FULLMETAL_SONIC said:

 

(before anyway says oh its hard to get them its not. Pushing content and doing SP endurance runs have a good drop rate on them)

I guess you don't know that one magic word: RANDOMNESS.

On 2023-10-11 at 4:35 PM, SDGDen said:

 

augments that don't increase the power of your build can already be fitted into the exilus slot. 

 

there's no reason to do this. 

What if I want to put Rush there? That's one reason.

On 2023-10-11 at 6:32 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Timely topic, lol.

 

Wow... it's recent post.

On 2023-10-11 at 10:26 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

(Also it wouldn't give you more build 'diversity', it would give you a free slot. So you'd get the augment as a default and then mod as if you didn't have it, that's not build diversity, that's just a regular build with a free effect.)

You can use that freed slot for something else, like "teleport mod set".

On 2023-10-12 at 5:45 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

Yup, still wishing for this or some similar solution, like making all augments exilus or making a helminth system for it, I don't understand why DE doesn't see the pain it creates.

Was it Pablo talk with some WF youtube that said about "liking" idea of mods makes you some decisions?

On 2023-10-12 at 9:02 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's like the topic about having more Loadout slots, it's been demanded by a small portion of the community for so long, but Rebecca confirmed again this year (I think it was right before TennoCon) that they're going to stick to the method they currently have of doling them out.

But didn't we have change in loadout slots number "recently" so every frame increase loadout slots by 1?

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, quxier said:

Was it Pablo talk with some WF youtube that said about "liking" idea of mods makes you some decisions?

Yeah.  I'm pretty sure it's in the Brozime interview if anybody wants to dig for it.  (I had a full timestamped key takeaway post about this interview somewhere here, but it seems to have vanished.)  https://youtu.be/ztewjHojVvI?si=PNNKa3x8MM4BEFV0

18 minutes ago, quxier said:

But didn't we have change in loadout slots number "recently" so every frame increase loadout slots by 1?

Yeah, they announced that in June.

[(PSN)FULLMETAL_SONIC]

On 2023-10-13 at 6:47 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Pfft...

This is the single most silly declaration I've read this month.

There are people that have gone into absolute minute detail on how and why an Augment slot would become viable, everything from how it would have to shift up a Warframe's kit and be even more valuable than an Aura, before it was even considered to be worth slapping an extra slot on there.

There are players who spent just as long counter-arguing, and I was right there reading through those threads.

And you know what the result of the months long debates was?

It was 'The only thing you get from an Augment slot with the current Augments we have, is an extra mod slot.' It breeds no creativity, you just get to build a normal frame with the augment as part of it.

The only potential there is the potential to get something that currently costs you a mod slot, as an extra that doesn't cost you a mod slot. No builds would change more than the single flex-slot you'd open up. That, and needing more Forma.

And all of that pales in the light of the simple truth:

Dev's said 'no'.

They said 'no' multiple times.

You can have a rework, maybe, where DE makes an Augment part of the base kit, but then they'll just update the original Augment mod to do something new, and it will still cost a regular mod slot.

There isn't even a dead horse to beat here. You're trying to beat air.

Okay then I should push for reworks is what I'm hearing because augment slot a no go. It's a joke we have to push for reworks when some augments in all honesty they should have just been a rework change that got add to the ability like in the small list of augment I mentioned   

[Birdframe_Prime]

31 minutes ago, (PSN)FULLMETAL_SONIC said:

Okay then I should push for reworks is what I'm hearing because augment slot a no go.

Yes, absolutely, please do.

It's not a joke, it's the only way you're going to get the function of any of the current Augments without them costing a regular mod slot. That's what DE have specifically said.

DE have, since the beginning of Augments, used them as ways to get around having to do any form of rework, though. They would literally rather create an Augment that does exactly what they ability should currently do, because it gets them the credit of introducing that much-asked-for function, but also takes away a little power of the builds that would be created for that function (not all, just one mod-slot's worth).

Everything from Iron Shrapnel and Neutron Star allowing those frames to purge and recast their defense abilities, all the way up to the more recent band-aids like Gyre's one that basically re-introduces some of the power she had at release that they nerfed.

You see it as limiting creativity, but it doesn't. There is no creativity present in having a single spare mod slot that you didn't have before when you're building for the specific effects of that Augment anyway, you'll just put the next best-in-slot mod into place to make that build better.

It is, however (and you're right about that), extremely frustrating that DE do this instead of reworking an ability.

So.

That's still what you have to do.

Push for reworks.

Push for changing what a specific Augment actually does.

Push for the things they will do, no matter how slowly, rather than the thing they've already said they won't do.

All that asking for an Augment slot gets you is them digging their heels in on the 'no'. But asking for changes to the specific things you don't like actually does stand a chance of working.

[(PSN)FULLMETAL_SONIC]

On 2023-10-14 at 9:02 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yes, absolutely, please do.

It's not a joke, it's the only way you're going to get the function of any of the current Augments without them costing a regular mod slot. That's what DE have specifically said.

DE have, since the beginning of Augments, used them as ways to get around having to do any form of rework, though. They would literally rather create an Augment that does exactly what they ability should currently do, because it gets them the credit of introducing that much-asked-for function, but also takes away a little power of the builds that would be created for that function (not all, just one mod-slot's worth).

Everything from Iron Shrapnel and Neutron Star allowing those frames to purge and recast their defense abilities, all the way up to the more recent band-aids like Gyre's one that basically re-introduces some of the power she had at release that they nerfed.

You see it as limiting creativity, but it doesn't. There is no creativity present in having a single spare mod slot that you didn't have before when you're building for the specific effects of that Augment anyway, you'll just put the next best-in-slot mod into place to make that build better.

It is, however (and you're right about that), extremely frustrating that DE do this instead of reworking an ability.

So.

That's still what you have to do.

Push for reworks.

Push for changing what a specific Augment actually does.

Push for the things they will do, no matter how slowly, rather than the thing they've already said they won't do.

All that asking for an Augment slot gets you is them digging their heels in on the 'no'. But asking for changes to the specific things you don't like actually does stand a chance of working.

A little power an augment could be the deference between 15-50+ strength and I'm asking for augments that would improve on a frame like ember first, frost ice wave which make sense built in or an augment where its like why is that a thing like atlas 3rd the gaze one. ember need every mod she can get in her 

[Hexerin]

On 2023-10-12 at 10:56 AM, Qriist said:

Abilities with augments that conditionally lengthen their duration (and do nothing else) should have the augment baked into the ability.

Under the above logic, Eternal War and Lasting Covenant are contenders for being rolled into their base abilities while Cathode Current is not. 

  Hide contents

I think this strikes a fine balance.

I'd argue that Cathode Current should be split in half. Having Rotorswell be extended by Cathode Grace should be inherent behavior on the frame, while the augment should simply be the extra discharge (which if you've ever played Gyre, is f'ing nutty and would still see that augment being almost universally used regardless).

Also, yes to Eternal War being integrated to be inherent behavior of Warcry. I would welcome the extra mod slot, and there's several options I can immediately think of that I would slot in place of Eternal War if I could.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Hexerin

[Qriist]

14 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

if you've ever played Gyre

just a bit :D

[Hexerin]

6 minutes ago, Qriist said:

just a bit :D

Dang, brother.

I'm nowhere close to that, but that's mostly because I gravitated away from her after I just couldn't get her to work in SP.

That being said, I'm not sure how much I trust these usage percentages.

There are so many things in just this portion of the frame listing that are wrong... especially Excalibur and Oberon. I naturally gravitate away from male characters in games that have options for both, so Excalibur would absolutely never have seen that much play (especially considering Trinity exists).

Oberon was raised (via SO) to rank 30 for MR, then immediately fed to Helminth. There's literally no possible way he could be that high of usage. Oberon Prime, on the other hand, I would not have been surprised to see in that position (or close to it). Male frame, but healer/supporter so sees an exception to the above gravitation.

Only reason Volt Prime is so high, is because he's the single strongest tile clear frame in the game, so I used him to farm my focus cap every day in SO.

I have no idea how Ivara Prime is higher than Trinity, considering I bought Ivara Prime from another player upon my return to the game several months ago and use her almost exclusively for Spy missions. That being said, she's only 10.4%, while Trinity Prime is 9.4% and Trinity is 8.5%, so it's not a big gap.

[Qriist]

8 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

I'm nowhere close to that, but that's mostly because I gravitated away from her after I just couldn't get her to work in SP.

Oh man, Gyre's a monster on SP! Although a large chunk of her damage comes from her abilities, she's very weapon-dependent to properly push those abilities. You have to think about the problem more holistically, in my opinion. I've laid out my build (and reasoning) over here if you wanna check it out:

On 2023-06-05 at 4:03 AM, Qriist said:

Gyre is a room clearing machine that I regularly take on hour long Steel Path survivals and disruptions. Played correctly, she has no notable survival issues.

My build:

 

Oh, one more thing: Gyre is legitimately one of the most effective frames in SP Circuit. Thanks to the nature of her abilities she is uniquely positioned to benefit from several decree categories that usually have no overlap: ability strength buffs, crit buffs, and status buffs. Because all of Gyre's abilities have native crit chance, all of these stack onto all of her abilities. Mod any fast firing weapon to push elec procs before you step out of the cave and you'll be golden. I probably have a dozen random guns with B configs capable of pushing electric. (Basically whatever guns Gyre rolled with on that particular Duviri run, lol.)

 

8 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

That being said, I'm not sure how much I trust these usage percentages.

My top 6 frames as presented by the stat screen: Nezha, Gyre, Titania, Xaku, Excalibur Umbra, and Saryn.

As you can see, those numbers are all over the place. My best guess is the used% reflects the number of discrete missions you've launched with that particular warframe. This would track with my own feel of how I've used these frames: Excal was used a ton until I got Nezha, then Nez was used on a bigger ton of farming missions because he's such a good tank. Heck, I still regularly run him. I've used Titania mostly for relic cracks but I also like choosing her in Circuit. I use Gyre+Xaku for a wide variety of missions, upto and including lengthy SP survivals. Saryn is pretty much only used in ESO buuut I'm almost certain each portal is counted as its own stage so every 20 minute run for a vandal blueprint would add 8 the tally.

 

8 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Only reason Volt Prime is so high, is because he's the single strongest tile clear frame in the game, so I used him to farm my focus cap every day in SO.

You know, I have not been able to get a feel for Volt, which is kinda funny considering how much I just gushed about his lady clone. XD

[Hexerin]

43 minutes ago, Qriist said:

You know, I have not been able to get a feel for Volt, which is kinda funny considering how much I just gushed about his lady clone. XD

I'll have to check out that thread you linked. As for Volt, this is what I used in SO:

Spoiler

If you bother putting shards into him, I recommend putting 2x starting energy (to offset those occasional situations where initial energy orbs refuse to drop) and 3x ability strength (more damage, makes things move faster). Tauforged for all, if you can (especially the starting energy).

As for the gameplay loop, it's super simple. The moment you are able to control yourself after taking the portal between zones, hit Discharge. Once the chain spread is done (you'll know because affinity number waves have stopped popping up), hit Discharge again. Repeat.

You might need to take a few Discharges to get the hang of the timing, but again, it's super simple. Just bear three things in mind:

1. Discharge applies a hidden debuff on enemies it hits, that makes them immune to further Discharges until it falls off.
   • This debuff lasts the same duration as Discharge's electric procs.
   • This debuff is global, meaning other Volts are also locked out of those enemies.
     • Due to this, you should just bail anytime another Volt joins the squad.
2. It's better to go into public lobbies, because more players in squad means more enemy density.
   • The build still works just fine solo, you just might need to grind a bit longer to hit focus cap.
3. This build is optimized for the first 3-4 zones of SO. If you go further than that, you'll find it falls off a cliff immediately.
   • It's still more than capable of going further, the squad just can't AFK while you kill everything anymore.
     • You're a supporter that provides tile-wide CC at this point.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Hexerin

[Waeleto]

I agree with you 100%
An augment slot would fix so many issues tbh

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, (PSN)FULLMETAL_SONIC said:

A little power an augment could be the deference between 15-50+ strength and I'm asking for augments that would improve on a frame like ember first, frost ice wave which make sense built in or an augment where its like why is that a thing like atlas 3rd the gaze one. ember need every mod she can get in her 

Yeah? And?

That was, if you notice, the point of my comment.

Asking to fix the Abilities or the Augments themselves is what will fix that disparity.

Asking for a dedicated slot is not going to fix anything because DE have already said they won’t do it.

Ask for what they will do, not for what they won’t do.

[Tiltskillet]

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ask for what they will do, not for what they won’t do.

I'd call it more "Ask for the smart thing they probably won't do, not the stupid thing they've outright said they won't." :P

I'm in your corner on this subject.  DE absolutely should not add an augment slot without making thorough examination of augments and their overall purpose, and overhauling hem accordingly.

However I still think it even less likely they do that than that Pablo changes his mind on augment slots, or gets told to make them happen.  Or moves on and gets replaced by somebody who thinks slapping on an augment slot for grind/plat is too easy and juicy a hype-job to pass up, balance shmalance. 

(If it happens it won't be something they add for a negligible cost like the OP suggested though: 25 slivers and some credits, lol.  I think it'll almost certainly require a new grind, and/or a plat bypass.)

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

personally augments as a whole seem to band-aid a innate issue with a kits mechanics that were not originally as well thought out or playtest in-depth IMO

that being said some frames require a few augments+  just to be viable , some frames become highly effective with just 1 . as a basic feature I think augments IMO should all be allowed EXILUS attribute , then it in effect becomes augment slot for those who want one as such dedicated 

personally im ok if de added another slot next to exilus  , even with "powercreep"   being a worry for some, this would only benefit the players as a whole to squeeze a little more function from their frames, there wouldn't realistically be a downside other than you can think a little more on build setup

[Qriist]

55 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I think it'll almost certainly require a new grind, and/or a plat bypass.

Hear me out:

1000 Steel Essence to unlock an augment slot capacity, 10000 to unlock the second. +5 base frame capacity added per unlocked slot. No plat bypass.

This keeps augment slots a longterm goal that can be passively worked towards by simply playing on the Steel Path - which is the level of play where you most want the additional functionality. This also provides a sink that got (knee)capped when DE limited Tenshin's kuva and relics per week.

Finally, it re-adds a feel of power progression that higher rank players have been missing out on for a while.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Qriist

[Tiltskillet]

15 minutes ago, Qriist said:

Hear me out:

1000 Steel Essence to unlock an augment slot capacity, 10000 to unlock the second. +5 base frame capacity added per unlocked slot. No plat bypass.

This keeps augment slots a longterm goal that can be passively worked towards by simply playing on the Steel Path - which is the level of play where you most want the additional functionality. This also provides a sink that got (knee)capped when DE limited Tenshin's kuva and relics per week.

Finally, it re-adds a feel of power progression that higher rank players have been missing out on for a while.

If it happens, I  think the key resource will be new, almost no matter what.  Because a sink for new resources has more potential  value to DE than  a sink for old resources.

It's fun to imagine the response to a thousand SE cost or 10x that though.  There'd be loads of freaking out. But there'd also be some people who'd quietly look at their stockpiles and frame needs and think little of it.

A new resource avoids some of that dichotomy.  And they could always have  SE or whatever be a secondary cost if they want to push old content and reduce stockpiles too.

[Qriist]

12 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

And they could always have  SE or whatever be a secondary cost if they want to push old content and reduce stockpiles too.

I'd be okay with that. :D

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, Qriist said:

I'd be okay with that. :D

Ok, it'll cost 100 Unobtainium from Tau Ceti, 1000 SE, and 300 Nitain. :P

[Birdframe_Prime]

59 minutes ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

personally augments as a whole seem to band-aid a innate issue with a kits mechanics that were not originally as well thought out or playtest in-depth IMO

I will highlight this to the thread.

When this topic has come up before, players literally listed every. single. Augment. and detailed that it fell into one of three camps; Band Aid, Legitimate Power Upgrade, or Trade Off.

To be clear, Band Aid is where DE have legitimately compensated for a missing part of the kit by making it an Augment, while Legitimate Power Upgrade is just where the Augment flat-out makes the ability stronger, and then a Trade Off is where you lose one thing in return for something else that could be more desirable making it functionally balanced.

And it was crazy that the three way split went 95% to the first two, and only 5% towards the last one. Because even failed Augments like Ballistic Barrage are just power boosts to the original ability, even if they're not worth the mod slot normally.

So for the people reading this: the actual logical result that came out of this discussion, categorising the Augments like this was simple.

'If it's so powerful, it needs to cost a full mod slot because it's the same as slotting any other mod for power. If it's a band-aid, then the ability should be reworked to include that function and a real Augment should be added, and that Augment should be good enough to cost a full mod slot. If it's a trade-off, then it should be an Exilus, regardless of whether it's to do with movement or not.'

If you want legitimately powerful augments, then there's no way that DE will give them a dedicated slot, that's just free power. If they're band-aids, then there's no way DE will give them a dedicated slot because they should rework the ability. And if they're a trade-off, then we already have a slot we can put them into.

So even when you put them all individually into a basic classification, there's not even a logical way to give them a dedicated slot from our own perspective.

[(PSN)FULLMETAL_SONIC]

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah? And?

That was, if you notice, the point of my comment.

Asking to fix the Abilities or the Augments themselves is what will fix that disparity.

Asking for a dedicated slot is not going to fix anything because DE have already said they won’t do it.

Ask for what they will do, not for what they won’t do.

apologies I was half asleep when I sent that

[(PSN)FULLMETAL_SONIC]

5 hours ago, Qriist said:

Hear me out:

1000 Steel Essence to unlock an augment slot capacity, 10000 to unlock the second. +5 base frame capacity added per unlocked slot. No plat bypass.

This keeps augment slots a longterm goal that can be passively worked towards by simply playing on the Steel Path - which is the level of play where you most want the additional functionality. This also provides a sink that got (knee)capped when DE limited Tenshin's kuva and relics per week.

Finally, it re-adds a feel of power progression that higher rank players have been missing out on for a while.

100-300 steel essence but we can only get 1-2 slots a week  

[(PSN)FULLMETAL_SONIC]

On 2023-10-13 at 8:09 PM, quxier said:

I guess you don't know that one magic word: RANDOMNESS.

What if I want to put Rush there? That's one reason.

Wow... it's recent post.

You can use that freed slot for something else, like "teleport mod set".

Was it Pablo talk with some WF youtube that said about "liking" idea of mods makes you some decisions?

But didn't we have change in loadout slots number "recently" so every frame increase loadout slots by 1?

When a clan of over 20 is sitting on over 1000 each slivers each they are clearly relatively common as a drop 

[quxier]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)FULLMETAL_SONIC said:

On 2023-10-13 at 9:09 PM, quxier said:

I guess you don't know that one magic word: RANDOMNESS.

When a clan of over 20 is sitting on over 1000 each slivers each they are clearly relatively common as a drop 

I was right. Google it before replying