Make Sevagoth and Grendel more popular again (Alter the helminth abilities)

[(XBOX)AudiGuard20]

Currently the 2 most overrated helminth abilities in the game are Gloom from Sevagoth and Nourish from Grendel.

Both of these abilities are so good and work basically 99% of the time better on other frames, that it makes both Sevagoth and Grendel fodder for the helminth which is a shame and so sad because both Sevagoth and Grendel (especially after the rework to Grendel) are really good Warframes to play as with amazing potential, its just that we wont see that potential because of the state they are in. I feel especially bad for Grendel because poor Grendel gotten a much deserved rework that made him so good, but the only problem is no one plays Grendel cause of Nourish being his helminth ability, essentially giving him the Sevagoth treatment. 

If you dont know, Gloom essentially creates a ring that drains your energy especially with the more enemies affected by gloom and affected enemies are slowed and killing these enemies heal the Frame. Nourish (although it is altered already as a helminth) gives you viral for your weapons, gives you a viral retaliation effect, and gives more energy per energy pickup. 

So, im suggesting, to make Grendel and Sevagoth more popular, Gloom and Nourish gets altered in the helminth (the original remains the same of course)

Gloom: Altered - Instead of 95% at like %280 something power strength, it is capped at 60 or even 50% slow. The catch is, you still need to reach that 280% mark to reach the full effect of the diminished version.

Nourish: Altered - Although it is already altered by removing the heal, another thing would be to 1 of 2 things (i havent decided so ill just leave both options here).  Either option 1, remove the viral retaliation effect (not the viral part for weapons) or reduce the energy multiplier by like a lot as option b because im just saying for a helminth ability, there is no reason for an ability to be much more potent than arcane energize.

I might be too brutal on the Sevagoth change for gloom as an altered helminth, but to be honest, i just want some love and recognition for the boy cause Sevagoth is really good and its a shame he is not being used more to this day. Plus, Sevagoth looks really cool as a warframe from an aesthetic view

These are my suggestions to make Sevagoth and Gloom more desirable by altering their helminth abilities. let me know what you think and if im too brutal or cruel for this?

[Pakaku]

37 minutes ago, (XBOX)AudiGuard20 said:

the only problem is no one plays Grendel cause of Nourish being his helminth ability, essentially giving him the Sevagoth treatment

The problem is more likely the farm being a pain. Same with Sevagoth, void storms literally give me a headache with all of the crashing noise.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Well for grendel it be great if the just rolled back the nerfs- give back glutony - the enemy 40 enemy cap, and scaling, and toxin back. 

And major fix for both would be that essensial parts of the helminths get kept to frame, like the aoe slow from gloom is sevagoth only and helmith variation gets the healing aoe effect.

And for nourish give the viral pulse and viral dmg(or turn in back to toxin dmg , and viral pulse), energy would be grendel only .

 

 

But then again both frames are not easely the best dmg dealers by abilities...  well grende used to be, but 40 enemy cap could give some fps stutters on spit out and trip to desktop still. And best way is just to take big dmg number slap on a frame with booster abilities and kill everything before they kill you...

 

And then again i use grendel and have gloom on him, get full gut and you have free healing, cast any abilities, its further free healing, kill enemies its extra heling, get into ball form collide with enemies, you guessed it more healing. Have pet with hunter recovery and predasite or panzer.... more healing,hirudo crit build is healing by crits and extra heal from dmg to enemies while gloom is on on top of all the others healings, add nourish augment for status immunity and you have some one walking through map not worrying about enemies much, up to certain lvl in sp, normal path... well just facetank and kill everything with stug, you got time to do that, even thougth stug is ok in sp too. 

Just a personal preference. But in the end pre-rework grendel hit way harder and with ball 1 shotted sp guys at lvl 150 when colliding, now same build ticles lvl 25 and takes few hits to kill them if unlucky

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by AntifreezeUnder0

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 44 minutos, AntifreezeUnder0 dijo:

Well for grendel it be great if the just rolled back the nerfs- give back glutony - the enemy 40 enemy cap, and scaling, and toxin back. 

And major fix for both would be that essensial parts of the helminths get kept to frame, like the aoe slow from gloom is sevagoth only and helmith variation gets the healing aoe effect.

And for nourish give the viral pulse and viral dmg(or turn in back to toxin dmg , and viral pulse), energy would be grendel only .

 

 

But then again both frames are not easely the best dmg dealers by abilities...  well grende used to be, but 40 enemy cap could give some fps stutters on spit out and trip to desktop still. And best way is just to take big dmg number slap on a frame with booster abilities and kill everything before they kill you...

 

And then again i use grendel and have gloom on him, get full gut and you have free healing, cast any abilities, its further free healing, kill enemies its extra heling, get into ball form collide with enemies, you guessed it more healing. Have pet with hunter recovery and predasite or panzer.... more healing,hirudo crit build is healing by crits and extra heal from dmg to enemies while gloom is on on top of all the others healings, add nourish augment for status immunity and you have some one walking through map not worrying about enemies much, up to certain lvl in sp, normal path... well just facetank and kill everything with stug, you got time to do that, even thougth stug is ok in sp too. 

Just a personal preference. But in the end pre-rework grendel hit way harder and with ball 1 shotted sp guys at lvl 150 when colliding, now same build ticles lvl 25 and takes few hits to kill them if unlucky

 

Not gonna happen. 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

As said earlier, no need for that. Grendel is going to be VERY popular starting next week, as his prime variant releases. The general masses still default to the dojo's Wukong and Revenant prime for ease of use + survivability, which isn't going to change anytime soon. Grendel however, is objectively better by proving much more than them.

[Mazifet]

So instead of actually making both frames engaging you want to nerf the crap out of their abilities, enraging 1/2 of the community who uses them?

[GigabearPRIME]

12 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Not gonna happen. 

That isn't going to stop me from pushing them to do it at every conceivable opportunity regardless.

 

5 is a joke. 10 or 20 would at least cc somthing.

[Qriist]

16 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Well for grendel it be great if the just rolled back the nerfs- give [...] toxin back. 

I do not view the change to viral as a nerf.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

4 hours ago, Qriist said:

I do not view the change to viral as a nerf.

Well his rework overall was huge nerf- for viral  stacks, viral pulse dmg and energy buff and ball movement control, you traded dmg scaling, special cc form- eat room and spit out to kill other room(the 40 enemies), and his ball with less control and inability to climb stairs did huge dmg when paired with toxin buff which benefited his kits dmg due to scaling, meaning the higher lvl enemies you ate the multipliers you get. 

Now you get viral dmg, viral stacks on pulse, better energy multi(skill itselfs is better on others than on grendel due to no gut required to cast) which combined with the armor strips still do less dmg then pre rework grendel with no armor strip and scaling effect of eaten enemies... Hell even 300% duration on full gut now, doesnt come near to full gut 100% grendel pre-rework with augment for status immunity.

Hill ball is just paper weight and simply for moving arround with movement getting messed up each patch due to random momentum halts , which goes away on next patches.

Regugitate with viral stacks and toxin dmg on 300% strenght still is no where near dmg output he had pre -rework on full gut nourish toxin buff,  and 177% strenght!fraction of dmg you get now ...

There are benefits too to rework, but over all before you got rewarded for being able to control energy drain or health drain with huge scaling dmg and ability to eliminate enemies and could utilize all 3 augments, now its just generic build ignoring augments and near braindead slap gloom get full gut and you get passive healing while enemies are in gut, but dmg output of other abilities with nourish buff on are meh... Same pulverize build killing sp enemies with 1 shot on collide, not ticles lvl 25 enemies.... and maybe in few collisions kill them.

[Waeleto]

As a sevagoth main, don't ever do this please
Sevagoth doesn't need to be popular in order to be good he's already good and if people don't like playing him it's their loss (same thing goes for grendel) but don't take away their tools to force them into playing something they hate
 

[RafMatador22]

I don't use either frame, but wait... are you proposing that they be nerfed simply so they won't be used on Helminth and do you think that they will be used more? There are several reasons why people don't use them, mainly their farming, which are probably the most painful, but nerfing them won't change that, and will only harm those who use them as their main ones.

[Tiltskillet]

I agree that  both abilities should be weaker on other frames.  But I don't think doing so would have any measurable effect on Grendel or Sevagoth's popularity.

[quxier]

21 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

special cc form- eat room and spit out to kill other room(the 40 enemies)

Well, at that time I think Eximus were "cc able" so you could eat them. Now it's different.

21 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Hill ball is just paper weight and simply for moving arround with movement getting messed up each patch due to random momentum halts , which goes away on next patches.

Have they messed up his Pulverize (ball) movement? After change it was very good to move (quick to accelerate, fast, can change direction quickly). Not sure about stairs.... but you can jump, afair.

 

21 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Now you get viral dmg, viral stacks on pulse, better energy multi(skill itselfs is better on others than on grendel due to no gut required to cast) which combined with the armor strips still do less dmg then pre rework grendel with no armor strip and scaling effect of eaten enemies

But Pulverize with viral/armor-strip gets more damage.

3 hours ago, RafMatador22 said:

I don't use either frame, but wait... are you proposing that they be nerfed simply so they won't be used on Helminth and do you think that they will be used more? There are several reasons why people don't use them, mainly their farming, which are probably the most painful, but nerfing them won't change that, and will only harm those who use them as their main ones.

Yeah, like I've used Sevagoth for some time... just for casting Gloom.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

But Pulverize with viral/armor-strip gets more damage.

no where near, tested same build and increased strenght on sp enemies, pre-rework ball 1 touch maybe 2 touch/collide to kill enemies in gut and outside gut. Now even if spit out half of time the toxin doesnt splash over to enemies or isnt even on the enemies you spit out.  Pre rework grendel was killing enemies 1 to 2 shot w/o armor strip! Yes now with armor strip viral and strenght boost you get to rather big dmg, but its fraction of what pre-rework dmg scale was cabable off. Like you need 300+ strenght to mimic the dmg of what full gut 177% all 3 augment grendel could output! and it also requires 300+% duration to mimic the status duration you could get from nourish augment and 2 sec per enemy in gut.

 

19 minutes ago, quxier said:

Well, at that time I think Eximus were "cc able" so you could eat them. Now it's different.

yea, but pre-rework grendel still would eat overguard fast, compared to now. or would kill everyother enemy so you would just need to shoot overguarded enemies. 

 

14 minutes ago, quxier said:

Have they messed up his Pulverize (ball) movement? After change it was very good to move (quick to accelerate, fast, can change direction quickly). Not sure about stairs.... but you can jump, afair.

Every other patch , brings random ball movement halt in air or second after you cast catapult. Like normal rolling with space is faster and further compared to catapulting with momentum, its noticable at times and annoying when you cant even get to place where normal bullet jump can reach.

And 2nd thing there is often delay to jumps in ball form, few seconds but sometimes it goes to you cant even double jump and catapult, so againt normal jump/bullet jump is better. its not constanty but annoying enough. 

Movement it self is responsive, but also... sometimes you need to wait 3 to 4 seconds for  momentum to halt to even change direction... since you stuck on invisible pixel or pixel sized ledge.

Also pre-rework ball was harder to get going, but was not that bad once got used. Everyone prefers new grendel ball, but for me nerfwork just killed everything special you could achieve when you could get under control the energy or hp drain. Al beit w/o the armor strip abilities, but still you coul strip 40 enemies in gut in 10 to 12 seconds on 177% strenght and when spit out they did great dmg, and gave way more dmg output to nourish/pulverize than compared now with virals armor strip.... And even then nourish is easier to use on others... albeit with less viral stacks

 

[quxier]

27 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

53 minutes ago, quxier said:

But Pulverize with viral/armor-strip gets more damage.

no where near, tested same build and increased strenght on sp enemies, pre-rework ball 1 touch maybe 2 touch/collide to kill enemies in gut and outside gut.

Maybe "inside gut" were able to kill enemies but it wasn't Pulverize doing. Pulverize had so low damage that, afair, couldn't even kill normal enemies (non sp).

29 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

55 minutes ago, quxier said:

Well, at that time I think Eximus were "cc able" so you could eat them. Now it's different.

yea, but pre-rework grendel still would eat overguard fast, compared to now. or would kill everyother enemy so you would just need to shoot overguarded enemies. 

Well, now I just need to kill eximus as well. It was one enemy (except nullies of course) that Pulverize has big problem with

31 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

57 minutes ago, quxier said:

Have they messed up his Pulverize (ball) movement? After change it was very good to move (quick to accelerate, fast, can change direction quickly). Not sure about stairs.... but you can jump, afair.

Every other patch , brings random ball movement halt in air or second after you cast catapult. Like normal rolling with space is faster and further compared to catapulting with momentum, its noticable at times and annoying when you cant even get to place where normal bullet jump can reach.

Oh, Catapult. I see, I need to see it. To be honest base version is so good that I'm not using augment too much.

 

33 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Movement it self is responsive, but also... sometimes you need to wait 3 to 4 seconds for  momentum to halt to even change direction... since you stuck on invisible pixel or pixel sized ledge.

3-4 seconds... wow. I need to test it because it was much different than "after release" version"

34 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Also pre-rework ball was harder to get going, but was not that bad once got used.

IMHO, prerework Ball were bad. Even with "getting used to" it was still not great. Primary source of faster movement (and big jump) were Catapult augment. It used to (I don't know about current version) to stuck in animations for few seconds! It was more gimmick (like Yareli/Merulina) than proper ability. Oh, and energy drain were drastic & complex.

39 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

eryone prefers new grendel ball, but for me nerfwork just killed everything special you could achieve when you could get under control the energy or hp drain. Al beit w/o the armor strip abilities, but still you coul strip 40 enemies in gut in 10 to 12 seconds on 177% strenght and when spit out they did great dmg, and gave way more dmg output to nourish/pulverize than compared now with virals armor strip.... And even then nourish is easier to use on others... albeit with less viral stacks

People liked eat/vomit cycle but it wasn't good thing for me. Now I can really pick Pulverize and kill enemies with it (probably with viral ability). When Eximus appear I can just turn off ability, kill eximus, and turn back. Buff ability is much simpler (now I know that it works). And you can eat during ball mode. For me, person that wanted to use Pulverize more, this was good change.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

25 minutes ago, quxier said:

Maybe "inside gut" were able to kill enemies but it wasn't Pulverize doing. Pulverize had so low damage that, afair, couldn't even kill normal enemies (non sp).

1 hour ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

feast pulverize and nourish toxin buff was devastating, having 40 enemies inside gut, killed 1 to 2 collide enemies arround you in ball form and inside too all due to scaling. 

Pre- rework grendel against casual sp infested, just example(video purpose was on maintaining the ball rather than showig dmg)

After rework same enemies same build.. armor strip viral pulse active... (yes 1 more player in squad , but dmg is none existant on full gut cast(which supposed to be same as old full gut)

before Rework enemies did not die in gut. While in gut they were decaying 2% armor on default or arround 9% per second on 177% strenght, after all the armor decayed you got increased energy drain/hp drain depenting with augment or not. And while in pulverize it dmged enemies inside gut and outside gut when colliding/jump slamming in enemies and dmg got further boosted by nourish dmg multiplier which scaled off from enemies in gut(althought only first 10 enemies per 10 enemy lvl). 

Only when spat out enemies got toxin on them and had toxin aoe splash splash in small radius, which amplified the dmg since you did have 40 spat out enemies in a buch splashing each other and enemies in room. 

 

Grendel works, but still dmg output is way lower than it used to be. He just became the generic  strenght build frame. 

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2023-10-11 at 10:14 PM, (XBOX)AudiGuard20 said:

Currently the 2 most overrated helminth abilities in the game are Gloom from Sevagoth and Nourish from Grendel.

I don't think that's what "overrated" means.  They're certainly popular, but they're popular for a reason.  "Overrated" is usually reserved for something that is highly praised or desired yet has little real merit or worth.  Furthermore, I can't say I agree with the title (questionable "make ____ ____ again" format aside), as I don't think Sevagoth or Grendel have ever been particularly popular.

 

Now that I've "well ackshually'ed" enough for one day, let me simply state that over all, I agree with you.  It's absolutely nuts that Defy is nerfed through the Helminth and yet Gloom and Nourish aren't.  I think instead of nerfs, I'd rather see some changes to the base versions on their original frames.  If Sevagoth could hit that max slow at a lower power strength requirement, maybe he wouldn't be quite as much of a forma hog as he is, for example.  That said, I don't really know that these changes, either the ones you're proposing or something else, would actually increase the popularity of Sevagoth or Grendel.

 

Kind of off topic, but I'm curious to see if their popularity/usage increases significantly when they get primed.  I've seen a lot of claims that Grendel's farm is brutal, and that Sevagoth's is also a pain.  Primes will make them easier to get a hold of, if only for a time.

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2023-10-12 at 2:14 PM, (XBOX)AudiGuard20 said:

Gloom: Altered - Instead of 95% at like %280 something power strength, it is capped at 60 or even 50% slow. The catch is, you still need to reach that 280% mark to reach the full effect of the diminished version.

this would not change why i use gloom

 

On 2023-10-12 at 2:14 PM, (XBOX)AudiGuard20 said:

Nourish: Altered - Although it is already altered by removing the heal, another thing would be to 1 of 2 things (i havent decided so ill just leave both options here).  Either option 1, remove the viral retaliation effect (not the viral part for weapons) or reduce the energy multiplier by like a lot as option b because im just saying for a helminth ability, there is no reason for an ability to be much more potent than arcane energize.

this does not give me incentive to go through hell to farm grendal

 

Firstly Sevagoth needs a buff or tweaks to be death incarnate

Secondly Grendal requires arbitration grinding letalone the missions to get his parts

Thirdly Warframe slots and my Warframe preference, i'm still going Mag, Caliban, Wisp or Umbra no matter how good other frames are because i can and will due to preference

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I don't think that's what "overrated" means.  They're certainly popular, but they're popular for a reason.  "Overrated" is usually reserved for something that is highly praised or desired yet has little real merit or worth.  Furthermore, I can't say I agree with the title (questionable "make ____ ____ again" format aside), as I don't think Sevagoth or Grendel have ever been particularly popular.

and soon hydroids helminth will be popular too

Because it was buffed to be good instead of nullified by unnecessary nerfs

And not just a buff but a reason to use the Warframe the ability is from example, Nidus larva, give it back its range but it give Nidus 15 Health per enemy trapped or energy, even a 30% Armor strip would do

Edited October 14, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89

[Qriist]

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

(questionable "make ____ ____ again" format aside)

Yeah, it took me a moment to parse what OP's title was actually asking.

 

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It's absolutely nuts that Defy is nerfed through the Helminth and yet Gloom and Nourish aren't.

What's weird is, Defy's armor gain isn't even particularly powerful, yet they nerfed that aspect instead of the reflected damage multiplier.

 

[Probably_Asleep]

OR--here me out--they could not make Helminth Ability vs Warframe Inventory mutually exclusive.

Instead, what if Warframes that get consumed by the Helminth can be regurgitated back up upon request? When you do, all current assignments using that Warframe's ability get reverted back to the original, and your Warframe goes back into your inventory.

Then people wouldn't have to farm two of every frame to have a full Helminth menu and a full Arsenal. The problem would be solved organically because there would be no punishment for having a great subsume ability.

For animation, I'd like to see the flower representing that frame wither and die, then the camera goes over to the Helminth mouth. The mouth does a "ptooey" and the Warframe flumps down on the ground, covered in slime, in the fetal position, silently shaking as though it's seen things no one should ever see. Then you get whisked to your Arsenal and a dialog box tells you that your Warframe is back in your inventory."

I guess you could make it go back to Unranked so people don't think this makes it too easy.

[quxier]

19 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe "inside gut" were able to kill enemies but it wasn't Pulverize doing. Pulverize had so low damage that, afair, couldn't even kill normal enemies (non sp).

20 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

feast pulverize and nourish toxin buff was devastating, having 40 enemies inside gut, killed 1 to 2 collide enemies arround you in ball form and inside too all due to scaling. 

Pre- rework grendel against casual sp infested, just example(video purpose was on maintaining the ball rather than showig dmg)

After rework same enemies same build.. armor strip viral pulse active... (yes 1 more player in squad , but dmg is none existant on full gut cast(which supposed to be same as old full gut)

There is so many things wrong with your examples.

- You need to compare same (or at least similar) units. Comparing 25k ehp (charger, 135 level) with things like 125k (Ancient) or 360 (boiler) is just wrong.

- You get damage mitigation in second video (at least some units are affected, so e.g. no viral proc) while in the first is just chargers, leapers and osprey.

- You need to take into account pros & cons of abilities. Going against not armored units (e.g. Infested/Charger) would of course favor old Pulverize that can get more enemies etc. Even with simple Butcher, single touch of Pulverize (at 200% strength) will remove 2/3 of Butcher EHP. Give it 10 stack of Viral and you have 3x more damage.

- You said viral pulse... but it hasn't worked great. I've just tested it and it doesn't seems to proc too much. I'm not sure what's the reasons (just "quick" tests).

[AntifreezeUnder0]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

There is so many things wrong with your examples.

- You need to compare same (or at least similar) units. Comparing 25k ehp (charger, 135 level) with things like 125k (Ancient) or 360 (boiler) is just wrong.

- You get damage mitigation in second video (at least some units are affected, so e.g. no viral proc) while in the first is just chargers, leapers and osprey.

- You need to take into account pros & cons of abilities. Going against not armored units (e.g. Infested/Charger) would of course favor old Pulverize that can get more enemies etc. Even with simple Butcher, single touch of Pulverize (at 200% strength) will remove 2/3 of Butcher EHP. Give it 10 stack of Viral and you have 3x more damage.

- You said viral pulse... but it hasn't worked great. I've just tested it and it doesn't seems to proc too much. I'm not sure what's the reasons (just "quick" tests).

Yea both times should have made either in squads or solo, but thing i wanted to show that doesnt matter solo or in squad pre prework pulverize on full gut(for scaling multipliers it was 10 enemies) the rest to 40 was for the armor boost) w/o armor strip did great dmg, even on armored units such as grineer or corpus units since it had toxin splash and on collision , dealing dmg to enemies outside gut and to those inside too.  As  mentioned the link text for the video purpose on old pulverize more about maintaining the ball form, but still you can see same old chargers ospreys even ancients get killed by rolling into them and see how even low strenght eat and spit can kill acolyte, not as fast... but still.

-After rework grendel even with armor strip- do lesss dmg and does not kill often lvl 25 units, not to mention you need invest heavy in strenght to get fraction on dmg effect... there are benefits in other areas but overall rework made him copy paste strenght build , removed glutony part of his, removed scaling , remade nourish which is same as sevagoths better on others, even with armor strip abilities he does less dmg with stripped armor and 10 viral stacks than before with no armor strip and no viral!! Which is my main dislike for the rework. Its dmg nerf, his special CC nerf, scaling nerf in the name of ball movement, and killing need for any of the augment use... You need 300%+ duration to get the pre-nerf status immunity  on full gut nourish cast with augment, and 300+% strenght to have fraction of the dmg... Even with arbi bonus and totaling 500% strenght he did not do dmg near he did before. ... But other frames who gets to clear rooms easier and few tiles ahead yet remained intacted...

-Viral pulse- well its just you need to get hit for it to activate... so dmg ouput is ... meh which is why old nourish with gave toxin buff and splash would actualy be better, since if you strip armor either by pulverize/regurgitate the pulse and dmg multiplier would enchance each other dmg output and would go along with the scaling... sad part there is no scaling no more.

[quxier]

6 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Yea both times should have made either in squads or solo,

When in first sentence you straight up ignore other factors and goes into "number of enemy" (squad/solo stuff), which doesn't matter in this context, then I feel like you are joking.

7 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

As  mentioned the link text for the video purpose on old pulverize more about maintaining the ball form, but still you can see same old chargers ospreys even ancients get killed by rolling into them

Ancients? Give me time (time stamp). Video were 6 minute long. If Ancients spawn like other "better" units in other factions then it's 5+ minutes. I've seen it in the first video.

7 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

how even low strenght eat and spit can kill acolyte, not as fast... but still.

Wow, I went into SP wahiba (infested survi) and killed my Acolyte with Pulverize & co as well.

7 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

-After rework grendel even with armor strip- do lesss dmg and does not kill often lvl 25 units

I've been doing fine in normal mot (that's ~40 level afair) with just ~145% strength (+maybe Zariman strength arcane, 60%, afair, but I don't know if it were active, and how much).

7 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

invest heavy in strenght to get fraction on dmg effect.

With JUST 200% strength I fully armor strip enemy with just a touch (or base  100% with 2 touch... something like 174% with armor stripping aura). With heavy gunner it's 90ish % of their hp if I get math right.

And 200% is not "heavy investment". You would see heavy investment with Roar + lot of strength on my Aquablades builds.

7 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

remade nourish which is same as sevagoths better on others, even with armor strip abilities he does less dmg with stripped armor and 10 viral stacks than before with no armor strip and no viral!!

So at 135 level, 10 enemeis from video it were: 500 + (10 * 350) * 14 = 49 500 damage (at 100% strength).

Sure now it's just 2k damage, but with just 5 enemies. Raw damage is smaller but you have armor stripping. With with 135 heavy gunner (normal), 96% of 1M ehp is destroyed. That's removed 960k damage IN SINGLE HIT. With 10 viral 2k becomes ~6k. That's 8 hits to kill heavy gunner at that level.

7 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

-Viral pulse- well its just you need to get hit for it to activate... so dmg ouput is ... meh which is why old nourish with gave toxin buff and splash would actualy be better, since if you strip armor either by pulverize/regurgitate the pulse and dmg multiplier would enchance each other dmg output and would go along with the scaling... sad part there is no scaling no more.

To be honest it's just random. Wiki says hit and getting hit with 2 second cooldown but I dont' see it.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

With JUST 200% strength I fully armor strip enemy with just a touch (or base  100% with 2 touch... something like 174% with armor stripping aura). With heavy gunner it's 90ish % of their hp if I get math right.

And 200% is not "heavy investment". You would see heavy investment with Roar + lot of strength on my Aquablades builds.

But my point is that now you need to invest heavy in strenght to even get fraction of dmg with the viral stacked  and armor stripped enemies, compared to pre-rework where even non stripped armored units died 1 to two shots, with 177% strenght and full gut up to certain lvl .  Imagine that you need 500% strenght to do fraction of dmg you could get on 177%, and you need 300% duration instead of 100, to achieve same effect as before update. Thats what i want to tell. Yes , now grendel can kill  but i need to double or triple streght because rework killed the dmg output of frame(scaling) ... where even armor strip and viral stacks does not provide nowhere near dmg, one got on non stripped enemies , without viral stacks . Imagine if they made that you need 600% strenght to have 50% toxin dmg bonus for saryn and its spores only affects 5 enemies at max at same time. Or mesas aimbot only kilss 10 enemies before 100% depleting energy, They work, but thier niche would be killed.