Thermal Sunder Needs More Work

[Seele]

I can only spell it out plainly so many times and have you refuse to read it the same number of times.

It should not be able to instantly kill SP enemies. It should not clear sorties in 13 seconds. There is a fundamental issue with the ability that allows it to do what so many other abilities can't. Let's compare it to something vaguely similar that inhabits the same ability slot - Ember's Fire Blast.

Fire Blast doesn't instantly kill everything, last I checked. I have never seen an Ember destroy an entire mission of any kind, let alone SP or sortie, with just Fire Blast. It also does fire damage in a PBAoE - however, it does base 100-1300 less damage than Thermal Sunder per cast. It also procs Heat each cast, but does not reapply the damage of the current Heat proc like Thermal Sunder does. It has double the base range of Thermal Sunder, but does not leave a persistent area of effect. It can strip an amount of armor based on Ember's passive.

Fire Blast is a decent ability that requires thought and management to get effective use out of. Its ceiling is high - it can 100% armor strip and apply Heat, and is imperative in mitigating the penalties of Ember's passive. Mindlessly spamming it is a waste of time and energy.

Very simply: Thermal Sunder does not need its redundant heat proc application. Thermal Sunder probably does not need a base damage ceiling of 1500. Thermal Sunder does not need to permanently CC any non-Eximus enemies caught in it until the heat procs kill them. Thermal Sunder benefits too much from Archon Vitality. Seeing any or all of these facts changed will make the ability more balanced.

And before we cry out that this ruins the ability entirely, let us not forget that there is a Cold and Blast version that are not even mentioned here. I would love for Thermal Sunder to remain a viable game piece and for its particular gameplay nuances (to the express exclusion of "doing too much damage") to be not only preserved, but encouraged. What was one of the more creative ability designs was reduced to only the laziest in application.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Seele
clarification

[Traumtulpe]

6 minutes ago, Seele said:

It should not be able to instantly kill SP enemies. It should not clear sorties in 13 seconds. [...]

Very simply: Thermal Sunder does not need its redundant heat proc application. Thermal Sunder probably does not need a base damage ceiling of 1500. Thermal Sunder does not need to permanently CC any non-Eximus enemies caught in it until the heat procs kill them. Thermal Sunder benefits too much from Archon Vitality. Seeing any or all of these facts changed will make the ability more balanced.

Again, it doesn't do that.

So you want to make it not proc Heat status anymore, ist that correct? So it would deal 1500 damage and nothing else? That's useless. Your suggestion is equal to deleting the ability, try again.

[Seele]

It does. It literally does. I haven't been able to enjoy playing Warframe since moving to Japan. You can't gaslight me into believing it can't do those things when I see and hear it happen every time I try to revisit what was once one of my favorite games.

It can proc heat status, it shouldn't reapply the damage on consecutive casts - hence redundant. Which one of us is "not in good faith", again? Because for someone who loves to haunt my every post you never read them.

At this point I am inclined to say yes, delete the ability, the whole thing. Replace it with one that requires players to think and can't be automated by sweatshop bot accounts that farm items to sell for real money. Delete Helminth, too! Didn't need it before, don't need it now. I do honestly feel that way, but I know it's controversial and that DE won't do that, so I don't bother suggesting it. This, conversely, is a reasonable complaint with reasonable suggestions.

[Traumtulpe]

I see. And then what, will you be back asking for DE to delete Saryn and Mesa? Equinox?

For reference, Miasma does 7200 damage per cast (+Spore damage), that's a lot more than the 1500 you begrudgingly accept for TS.

[Aruquae]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I see. And then what, will you be back asking for DE to delete Saryn and Mesa? Equinox?

For reference, Miasma does 7200 damage per cast (+Spore damage), that's a lot more than the 1500 you begrudgingly accept for TS.

We are not doing this argument

I will end it at a SINGLE ABILITY nuking steel path with ease and no requirement isn’t the way. Spamming it also makes that messily “1500” damage skyrocket (adding heat must etc.)

EVERYONE can tell you Saryn falls off hard in actually killing things in steel path (though still viable if you think of her as a debuffer). She also requires a full setup on non steel path (using abilities in a specific order)

Equinox requires you to actually damage, then doing one big boom, before repeating the cycle. Also falls of in armor, she’s the most balanced AOE DPS imo. 
Mesa though… you got me there ngl

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Malikili
Saryn not Saran, gosh darn spell check

[Traumtulpe]

21 minutes ago, Malikili said:

I will end it at a SINGLE ABILITY nuking steel path with ease and no requirement isn’t the way.

You're late to the party, TS is already nerfed in case you didn't know. It's damage is now capped and it doesn't "nuke the Steel Path" anymore.

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

You're late to the party, TS is already nerfed in case you didn't know. It's damage is now capped and it doesn't "nuke the Steel Path" anymore.

Yea I was just watching this play out tbh

OP seems to think it does “nuke steel path,” which I can’t confirm because I’m always soloing anyways. 
I was simply pointing out the argument about nuke frames nuking is redundant, and has been long dragged out. 

[Seele]

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I see. And then what, will you be back asking for DE to delete Saryn and Mesa? Equinox?

For reference, Miasma does 7200 damage per cast (+Spore damage), that's a lot more than the 1500 you begrudgingly accept for TS.

No, because Saryn and Mesa do not ruin my experience playing the game. Jump off the slippery slope before you slide all the way down, because I've been hearing "every gun will be MK-1 Braton" and similar idiocy for years. It's not what anyone wants and it's not what's going to happen. Nerfs are sometimes necessary for the health of a game and if you can't grasp that, we're both wasting our time.

[(PSN)rexis12]

You know seeing this, sometimes I wish that Def was still the Meta and that killing everything wasn't the main method of advancing the game.

 

JUST so that I can look into the hypothetical future of people wanting to get Snow globe nerfed.

 

Also like how weak is your set up that you're struggling to catch up to Thermal Sunder spam? Unless it's like Defense, where you can layer 4 of them in one go, a basic Lancer takes about 7 heat procs at level 100 SP before it starts melting.

Edited November 17, 2023 by (PSN)rexis12

[(PSN)rexis12]

7 hours ago, Seele said:

No, because Saryn and Mesa do not ruin my experience playing the game

So like, just to be clear, you don't want balance you just want something nerf because you don't like 'X' in particular?

That's...

That's AGGP malding as Titania's Razorwing Vacuum levels of petty.

[Seele]

2 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

So like, just to be clear, you don't want balance you just want something nerf because you don't like 'X' in particular?

That's...

That's AGGP malding as Titania's Razorwing Vacuum levels of petty.

The latter half of this post is unintelligible and the former half is stupid.

Games are made and played to be fun. I can have fun with a Mesa or Saryn on my team. I cannot have fun when the game is devolved into one or more squadmates blasting through the map as fast as possible, farting thermal sunders every half a second and leaving absolutely nothing left for me to engage with. You people defending this garbage are patently insane. Is that merely preference? Sure. I want it nerfed because I don't like it. Because clearly none of my arguments about why it is imbalanced and unhealthy for the game resonate with you, so I'll put it in terms you can understand / want to hear.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Seele

[(PSN)rexis12]

10 minutes ago, Seele said:

The latter half of this post is unintelligible and the former half is stupid.

Games are made and played to be fun. I can have fun with a Mesa or Saryn on my team. I cannot have fun when the game is devolved into one or more squadmates blasting through the map as fast as possible, farting thermal sunders every half a second and leaving absolutely nothing left for me to engage with. You people defending this garbage are patently insane. Is that merely preference? Sure. I want it nerfed because I don't like it. Because clearly none of my arguments about why it is imbalanced and unhealthy for the game resonate with you, so I'll put it in terms you can understand / want to hear.

So yeah, my point still stands you're fine with unbalanced room nukes that are Mesa and Saryn because you like them, and you're not with Thermal Sunder because you don't like them.

Aka you don't care about balance, Saryn and Mesa have had several multiple threads to ask for nerfs even in their current state, with Pablo himself saying that he wants to change Saryn but he doesn't know how to, but because you don't care about them ruining your fun you don't give a S#&$ and want to only aim for the thing you don't like.

Which is, exactly what I mean. Extremely petty and almost equivalent to the malding that AGGP or that one Conclave guy that wanted to ruin everything for everyone because YOU don't like it.

[Seele]

41 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

So yeah, my point still stands you're fine with unbalanced room nukes that are Mesa and Saryn because you like them, and you're not with Thermal Sunder because you don't like them.

Aka you don't care about balance, Saryn and Mesa have had several multiple threads to ask for nerfs even in their current state, with Pablo himself saying that he wants to change Saryn but he doesn't know how to, but because you don't care about them ruining your fun you don't give a S#&$ and want to only aim for the thing you don't like.

Which is, exactly what I mean. Extremely petty and almost equivalent to the malding that AGGP or that one Conclave guy that wanted to ruin everything for everyone because YOU don't like it.

If I made a list of everything I dislike in the game it would be much, much longer than just "thermal sunder". But not even Kuva Tonkor or Bramma or Mesa or Saryn reduce the game to literal unplayability the way thermal sunder does. I am honestly getting very, very tired of reiterating that. There is a notable and relevant distinction.

I hate the Kuva Tonkor. Shouldn't work how it does. But I am not asking to get rid of everything I don't like, now, am I? No. Just asking for Thermal Sunder to stop being one of the most overpowered abilities in the game, and one that helps facilitate the illegal real-world item trade that is running rampant on the server I have to play on. Abilities designed to do nothing but obscene amounts of damage do not invalidate the game the same way. It's bizarre that you can't see this. Or that you are an apologist for it.

Would I be upset if Mesa or Saryn were tuned down some? No. (Maybe Saryn, I honestly don't truly think she deserves it with how poorly she fares in SP, but a change that made her less obnoxious in star chart without ruining her would be good.) Clearly they are also imbalanced, just not to the same degree Thermal Sunder is. That is why it is appealing to "players" automating the game to get rewards - raw efficiency with no chance of failure.

Why don't the bots use Mesa?

Why don't the bots use Saryn?

Why don't the bots use Kuva Tonkor or Atterax or Incarnon Lex or Aklato or Stug?

Do you see my point yet?

 

[(PSN)rexis12]

2 minutes ago, Seele said:

Why don't the bots use

The same reason we're only getting complaints about Thermal Sunder now.

Because people did not actually care about balance, and only are aiming for the current thing that caught their eye to go 'NERF NOW'.

Thermal Sunder, up until the nerf a few patches ago, was the same before the Wukong and Specter changes and surprisingly we didn't see much people whinging about it.

The same reason you are not whinging about Mesa and Saryn, because at this point the bots haven't decided to go for them yt because TS is still here. I can #*!%ing bet that the TS is eventually Nerf and Saryn or Mesa ends up next on the 'Abuse' train, you'd come cryingback and make more threads about 'How Mesa/Saryn needs more work'.

You do not care about balance or whatever moral or legal high ground

7 minutes ago, Seele said:

facilitate the illegal real-world item trade that is running rampant on the server I have to play on

That this is supposed to be, because suddenly you care about how it can be used for illegal trades apparently despite never saying anything about it until I pointed out that you're only race in this is you personally not liking it and wanting to ruin it for everyone.

I can already think of several other tactics similar to TS that'll get all of you people screaming to nerf, #*!%ing up abilities and systems, and when challenged with how Warframe gameplay and reward structure functions you'd all go 'Yeah, but I want a short term solution NOW'.

[Hexerin]

10 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

You know seeing this, sometimes I wish that Def was still the Meta and that killing everything wasn't the main method of advancing the game.

 

JUST so that I can look into the hypothetical future of people wanting to get Snow globe nerfed.

 

Also like how weak is your set up that you're struggling to catch up to Thermal Sunder spam? Unless it's like Defense, where you can layer 4 of them in one go, a basic Lancer takes about 7 heat procs at level 100 SP before it starts melting.

How bad is your TS build that you're having trouble against basic SP enemies with it? That'd be impressive if it wasn't so pathetic.

[(PSN)rexis12]

4 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

How bad is your TS build that you're having trouble against basic SP enemies with it? That'd be impressive if it wasn't so pathetic.

'Shrug' it's the most basic use of the most common one, a Titania Range build. Could I have built it better? Sure but apparently his issue is the 1.5k heat procs that's present in the base TS, so I tested that and it takes about 7 heat procs for it to be 'melting'.

[FacuNeko]

may i suggest changin thermal sunder damage down to 1 heat or cold

BUT making enemies inside more vulnerable to heat/cold damage

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

23 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Oh no people are killings things too fast that I can't play, surely we should also nerf other things that also kill things too fast to the point where the rest that enter random pubs where others have obligation to do things your way dont get to play. 

So when are we going to get threads on Nerfing Rubico and Knell due to Eidolons and Archon Hunts?

There's no point in nerfing since there are better weapons to use than Knell and Rubico. Perigale for instance does not need a riven to "one-shot" limbs. Rubico and Knell are beginner setups. Those weapons don't need to be touched, rather Eidolons and Archon Hunts need to be completely reworked. DE won't touch Eidolons with 69 foot pole and Archon Hunters are just as bad.

I think it's fine leaving TS as is. There are too many truly broken combos in this game that trivialize the game. Bots can't be stopped in any game so maybe it is a good idea make mechanics a little more complicated.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Seele]

23 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

There's no point in nerfing since there are better weapons to use than Knell and Rubico. Perigale for instance does not need a riven to "one-shot" limbs. Rubico and Knell are beginner setups. Those weapons don't need to be touched, rather Eidolons and Archon Hunts need to be completely reworked. DE won't touch Eidolons with 69 foot pole and Archon Hunters are just as bad.

I think it's fine leaving TS as is. There are too many truly broken combos in this game that trivialize the game. Bots can't be stopped in any game so maybe it is a good idea make mechanics a little more complicated.

I agree with the entire first half. Eidolon hunts could use a rework. I don't do them anymore, but when I did there was still a team dynamic. I would play support Oberon, my brother shot limbs with Rubico, and our friend set up Volt shields for amp fire. It was a good, fun thing that our team was able to defeat the Eidolon quickly, because we each had a part to play. As opposed to watching someone solo all three of them. While that would be nice for getting the Eidolon-exclusive rewards efficiently, for someone who actually enjoys Eidolon fights, it could be disappointing.

Can't agree that leaving TS as is would be fine. The fact that imbalance exists does not mean we should abandon all efforts for balance. The fact that bots will always exist doesn't mean we should just let them be able to do what they can do now. If the bots are at least made less efficient, it hurts the IRL trade market bottom line, and that's the only real and effective form of policing the devs can do. Even if the power level is to remain exactly the same as it is now, making it more difficult (or ideally impossible) to automate would still be a great improvement.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Nerf it further, just to spite @Traumtulpe 

I'm on board! 

Or change the subsume from TS to Mach Rush, so I can have fun 😊

[MaxTunnerX]

Damn, so youre saying they nerfed thermal sunder before I even got it to work? I gave it to my titania to do some low level fissures, but it never really worked for me. I had to keep spamming it every 5 seconds to do any kind of damage, dont know how the other titanias did that. Well anyway, RIP.

Edited November 20, 2023 by MaxTunnerX

[Seele]

31 minutes ago, MaxTunnerX said:

Damn, so youre saying they nerfed thermal sunder before I even got it to work? I gave it to my titania to do some low level fissures, but it never really worked for me. I had to keep spamming it every 5 seconds to do any kind of damage, dont know how the other titanias did that. Well anyway, RIP.

They spammed it far more often than every 5 seconds, is how. Bots can do it remarkably fast.

Low level fissures should work exactly as they did before the nerf; the recent change only affected the functionally infinite scaling. So if you wanted a fissure speedrunner, don't lament. I'm also not trying to deny that option to anyone, but I feel that at Axi it should begin to be less than perfectly efficient, and it should not be a viable 'strategy' in SP at all.

[Traumtulpe]

42 minutes ago, (XBOX)K1jker said:

Nerf it further, just to spite @Traumtulpe 

I'm on board! 

Or change the subsume from TS to Mach Rush, so I can have fun 😊

I'm all for it, Mach Rush in the Helminth. But please don't nerf it's speed by 50%, and the range of the augment by 50% as well, for good measure.

[MaxTunnerX]

17 minutes ago, Seele said:

They spammed it far more often than every 5 seconds, is how. Bots can do it remarkably fast.

Low level fissures should work exactly as they did before the nerf; the recent change only affected the functionally infinite scaling. So if you wanted a fissure speedrunner, don't lament. I'm also not trying to deny that option to anyone, but I feel that at Axi it should begin to be less than perfectly efficient, and it should not be a viable 'strategy' in SP at all.

Ah I see. Dont know how it can work in SP when you have to spam it even for low levels, but whatever. Anyway, thanks for the good news that I still can do it and also thanks for the bad news that spamming it is the way to go, which means Im not going to do that. Ill just stick to my wukong that doesnt need spamming to be effective.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Traumtulpe:

I'm all for it, Mach Rush in the Helminth. But please don't nerf it's speed by 50%, and the range of the augment by 50% as well, for good measure.

Yeah that wouldn't be fun.. keep it as is. 🥳