You have altered the deal DE. I just pray you don't alter it any further.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Merkranire said:

What are you talking about “Not sacrificing for Steel Path”? It’s not the place that supports the most variety from the modless baseline of any combination of gear and build, that’s why it was introduced was because players were living in beyond-redundant levels of power attained by minmaxing at cost to variety; even if DE elevated a few things through the introduction of subjectively-problematic options to elevate our gear, we’re still not able to take the vast majority of builds we can make that customise our gameplay.

Though if I remember correctly you didn’t call a build a build unless it fulfilled some kind of criteria-I-can’t-quite-recall-but-I’m-pretty-sure-it-was-SP-related.

And then when it comes to impressions on how important SP is, it’s all anyone uses as the warped measuring stick the moment they had a reason to run it extremely early in its introduction. It’s not the place for balanced gameplay, not the place to live in, not the place to go for variety, but what do players use as the baseline if not Steel Path, hm? I’m not going to deny that plenty of players suck at the game, but all you hear is how SP is the place to go if you’ve got something to prove when the rest of the game is already there to play with better balance and more variety, and DE don’t need to keep shoving unique rewards into Steel Path to entice players into living in the game mode; they’ve got unique mechanics to bossfights in SP! That pisses me off that they’re not at least present in the non-SP part of the game as well

edit: this is Greybones btw; it seems my switch and PC accounts were merged on the forums as well

But why should you be modless? You are practically proving my point that some people dont care to progress but want everything eitherway. The tools are there, you can in practice pick whatever you want and beat SP aslong as you build properly i.e actually building and not just slapping things together without thought. You arent sacrificing anything in that process since the thing you use wont get worse at dealing with lower content and the playstyle wont really change either. If a gun spits death in low content with a random setup of mods it will spit death in the same fashion in SP with proper modding. You will very likely not feel any gameplay change by skipping crap mod X for BiS mod Y since the weapon will handle the same and just deal more effective damage.

I think I said a while back in a discussion that you dont need to specifically build anything to handle star chart, so there are no "star chart builds" for instance. That doesnt translate to use suddenly having to sacrifice something to do SP, just that we actually need to make builds as opposed to an "anything goes" approach. I've played SP with the most fragile frames and the most durable, it works no matter which I pick aslong as I've actually invested myself in how I build them, and I've never had to alter my playstyle with them to cater to SP. Most weapons work aswell, but I wouldnt go with a MK1 Braton when I have a Braton Prime if I wanna use a Braton. And if a person isnt interested in building, it shouldnt matter to them if unique rewards are locked behind SP anyways, since they likely wont use the items after they obtain them eitherway, since building is obviously not their cup of tea.

The balance and varitey is in SP just the same as the rest of the game. Not even SP matches our power for that matter. It isnt about proving something either, it is simply about making use of the items we've gathered earlier in the game. The only thing SP does is require us to use better mods than needed on the SC for most part, but mods dont alter a playstyle exactly, since it just result in more power to an exsisting playstyle determined by the frame and weapon of choice. So you "sacrifice" lower power to gain higher power while the playstyle is intact. And the boss mechanics connected to SP (60) would have been the same if it was accessible elsewhere and the difficulty all the same, so being pissed it is SP specific is a little strange. The difference would have just been that you'd jump from normal, bounty or SP to the SP60 difficulty when enough eyes were gathered. Would that piss you off less since it is accessible from non-SP aswell?

I'm just curious what builds you refer to that you cannot take into SP, builds that alter your gameplay to a noticable degree between "SC builds" and "SP builds". And what you have to sacrifice in that SC specific gameplay setup.

edit: I forgot to ask this in relation to the SP60 boss. Since you are pissed at that, are you also pissed at Archons in general? Since they are bosses only available through a specific higher level mode, although not SP but still SP scaled.

Edited December 30, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[DrBorris]

18 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

need to sacrifice the very variety they’re earning

I've dodged this thread for awhile because I know how vehemently some people disagree with the following, but here I go.

A decision without impact is meaningless. Creativity is a result of restriction, not complete freedom.

 

I just don't buy the idea that normal path has more "variety" than Steel Path. I can make far more of my arsenal feel meaningful in SP because the decisions I am making when building a loadout actually has meaning. The "difficulty" of most non-SP content is so low that it makes many, many build options irrelevant. Crowd control means nothing because a cool breeze will kill them faster, damage buffs don't do a thing because it is already dead. Damage debuffs are an extra step to kill the thing. Defensive builds have absolutely no reason to exist.

My go-to example for this is Vauban. Unless I am desperate for a meme and using Vector Pad as a mobility tool, I will never bring Vauban to normal path. His entire kit feels like crap, the only redeeming factor being Vortex as an AFK tool. On the other hand, in SP, you get a high-activity 'trap' spam. Strategically placing Bastilles to create choke points and strip armor, placing Flechette turrets in locations to maximize their ability to hold the choke, then using Photon Strike on large groups I encounter when running between the multiple chokes I am trying to hold. None of this is viable in normal path because enemies are just too weak. Utilizing the armor strip from Bastille is pointless and Photon Strike is less effective than a single gun shot. It is only in SP where his kit is able to function.

And if you want to get even more broad, the entire status/resistance systems in the game are also kinda meaningless outside SP. Maybe electric and gas as they have an AoE aspect? But even then everything will probably be dead long before those could actually do anything. Enemy design also matters significantly more in SP as enemies generally have a chance to do something instead of die 0.138 seconds after becoming targetable.

And I don't think you can call any assortment of mods a "build." A "build" implies purpose, that you are trying to customize a thing to do a thing. A random assortment of mods isn't a "build" that should be respected by the game, build-craft is a core aspect of Warframe and learning to create synergistic builds is just as much gameplay as shooting the gun. If you think that SP limits the variety you have earned, then you just haven't figured out how to actually make a build. Aeolak has recently been a thing I've been loving in SP. It's a basic gun, "bad" by the meta standards, but even without a frame build-around is able to keep up in mowing through hallways.

And speaking of mowing through hallways, SP is still a gosh-darn power fantasy. If SP feels bullet-spongy then you're doing it wrong. You've failed to play the other half of the game that exists in the arsenal. Those things that you've been earning, the things you say you need to "sacrifice". No... use them. Combine time. Make a fudging build ffs. You are farming these things to use them, to get an effect out of them, not just equip it for giggles and gain nothing of substance. I feel far more held to the "meta" in non SP as if I use anything besides the "boom-n-zoom" playstyle then I may as well afk. In SP I can do wacky builds and not have to go solo, I can do a supportive thing and feel like I'm contributing, I can use single-target weapons and still get reasonable relative damage in.

I don't just think that SP is good content on its own, nor do I think it is just a matter of preference, Steel Path is a superior level of content for the sandbox of the game. It is MORE balanced than non-SP.

 

There are a lot of discussions about how broken the core game is, that everything is OP and that it needs to be torn down. What is missing from these discussions is the state of the game. And no, not a portion that just fits to your narrative, but the actual state of SP. Where every Warframe has a unique build and playstyle. Where we have three significantly different build routes for weapon-killing (Viral/Slash, Status Priming, and armor-strip). Where nearly every weapon can kill stuff and the most powerful weapons are only rarely suffocating the less powerful. It isn't flawless, but there is so much good stuff going on. The meta for the game has never been more diverse and we've been getting more things to keep expanding it. Corrosive Green Shards are opening a whole new path for frame/weapon building.

The only place where I feel restricted in SP is in the defense department, if I'm not doing something with shield gating and the frame doesn't have 90% DR I do feel forced into an Adaptation. That kinda sucks, but it's only one mod slot and I've still found that sometimes armor gets me close enough (given other factors line up). Having to build defensively isn't what feels "restrictive," it is that my options in doing so don't feel all that diverse.

 

I hope DE doesn't just continue their trend of encouraging SP, I hope they double down on it as the official "late game" difficulty. I do think there is a lot of work needed in the on-boarding into SP, it is a massive bump in content "difficulty" with no guidance on how to grow your power into it, but as a target and balancing point it is the best "late game" we've ever had by a significant margin.

[Merkranire]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But why should you be modless? You are practically proving my point that some people dont care to progress but want everything eitherway. The tools are there, you can in practice pick whatever you want and beat SP aslong as you build properly i.e actually building and not just slapping things together without thought. You arent sacrificing anything in that process since the thing you use wont get worse at dealing with lower content and the playstyle wont really change either. If a gun spits death in low content with a random setup of mods it will spit death in the same fashion in SP with proper modding. You will very likely not feel any gameplay change by skipping crap mod X for BiS mod Y since the weapon will handle the same and just deal more effective damage.

I think I said a while back in a discussion that you dont need to specifically build anything to handle star chart, so there are no "star chart builds" for instance. That doesnt translate to use suddenly having to sacrifice something to do SP, just that we actually need to make builds as opposed to an "anything goes" approach. I've played SP with the most fragile frames and the most durable, it works no matter which I pick aslong as I've actually invested myself in how I build them, and I've never had to alter my playstyle with them to cater to SP. Most weapons work aswell, but I wouldnt go with a MK1 Braton when I have a Braton Prime if I wanna use a Braton. And if a person isnt interested in building, it shouldnt matter to them if unique rewards are locked behind SP anyways, since they likely wont use the items after they obtain them eitherway, since building is obviously not their cup of tea.

The balance and varitey is in SP just the same as the rest of the game. Not even SP matches our power for that matter. It isnt about proving something either, it is simply about making use of the items we've gathered earlier in the game. The only thing SP does is require us to use better mods than needed on the SC for most part, but mods dont alter a playstyle exactly, since it just result in more power to an exsisting playstyle determined by the frame and weapon of choice. So you "sacrifice" lower power to gain higher power while the playstyle is intact. And the boss mechanics connected to SP (60) would have been the same if it was accessible elsewhere and the difficulty all the same, so being pissed it is SP specific is a little strange. The difference would have just been that you'd jump from normal, bounty or SP to the SP60 difficulty when enough eyes were gathered. Would that piss you off less since it is accessible from non-SP aswell?

I'm just curious what builds you refer to that you cannot take into SP, builds that alter your gameplay to a noticable degree between "SC builds" and "SP builds". And what you have to sacrifice in that SC specific gameplay setup.

edit: I forgot to ask this in relation to the SP60 boss. Since you are pissed at that, are you also pissed at Archons in general? Since they are bosses only available through a specific higher level mode, although not SP but still SP scaled.

First of all, and I cannot stress this enough, I said Modless Baseline. Baseline. The starting point. The beginning, the point where equipment stands on its own merit before we customise it. The game gives us a bunch of modless gear and a bunch of mods to modify its damage, abilities, what it can do, anything that mods can do to a piece of equipment. And then schools and gearwheel items and companions and Arcanes, but the start is that piece of equipment with zero mods, ripe for building

Modless is the broadest canvas, no slots burned for “Mandatory Mods”, no capacity lost that someone counters with Forma. That means if you want to load up on Exilus mods across your entire kit of weapons and Warframe, do that and you’ll find a place to use it. If you want to go full Meta, do that and you’ll end up in Steel Path. And any any any build you could possibly want to make involving whatever combination of loadout that has your gun and Warframe perform a certain way, you can do that and then where you take it will influence the gameplay you experience.

Steel Path is more limited because of what it’s meant to be, and there’s no rule saying you can’t take what you earn in Steel Path or anywhere else and throw it into the mix of ways you can combine things to even further expand your options in the non-SP game, which Archons and the new content (whose name eludes me at the moment) are not Steel Path and do not share SP’s modifiers

Edited December 30, 2023 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I've dodged this thread for awhile because I know how vehemently some people disagree with the following, but here I go.

A decision without impact is meaningless. Creativity is a result of restriction, not complete freedom.

 

I just don't buy the idea that normal path has more "variety" than Steel Path. I can make far more of my arsenal feel meaningful in SP because the decisions I am making when building a loadout actually has meaning. The "difficulty" of most non-SP content is so low that it makes many, many build options irrelevant. Crowd control means nothing because a cool breeze will kill them faster, damage buffs don't do a thing because it is already dead. Damage debuffs are an extra step to kill the thing. Defensive builds have absolutely no reason to exist.

My go-to example for this is Vauban. Unless I am desperate for a meme and using Vector Pad as a mobility tool, I will never bring Vauban to normal path. His entire kit feels like crap, the only redeeming factor being Vortex as an AFK tool. On the other hand, in SP, you get a high-activity 'trap' spam. Strategically placing Bastilles to create choke points and strip armor, placing Flechette turrets in locations to maximize their ability to hold the choke, then using Photon Strike on large groups I encounter when running between the multiple chokes I am trying to hold. None of this is viable in normal path because enemies are just too weak. Utilizing the armor strip from Bastille is pointless and Photon Strike is less effective than a single gun shot. It is only in SP where his kit is able to function.

And if you want to get even more broad, the entire status/resistance systems in the game are also kinda meaningless outside SP. Maybe electric and gas as they have an AoE aspect? But even then everything will probably be dead long before those could actually do anything. Enemy design also matters significantly more in SP as enemies generally have a chance to do something instead of die 0.138 seconds after becoming targetable.

And I don't think you can call any assortment of mods a "build." A "build" implies purpose, that you are trying to customize a thing to do a thing. A random assortment of mods isn't a "build" that should be respected by the game, build-craft is a core aspect of Warframe and learning to create synergistic builds is just as much gameplay as shooting the gun. If you think that SP limits the variety you have earned, then you just haven't figured out how to actually make a build. Aeolak has recently been a thing I've been loving in SP. It's a basic gun, "bad" by the meta standards, but even without a frame build-around is able to keep up in mowing through hallways.

And speaking of mowing through hallways, SP is still a gosh-darn power fantasy. If SP feels bullet-spongy then you're doing it wrong. You've failed to play the other half of the game that exists in the arsenal. Those things that you've been earning, the things you say you need to "sacrifice". No... use them. Combine time. Make a fudging build ffs. You are farming these things to use them, to get an effect out of them, not just equip it for giggles and gain nothing of substance. I feel far more held to the "meta" in non SP as if I use anything besides the "boom-n-zoom" playstyle then I may as well afk. In SP I can do wacky builds and not have to go solo, I can do a supportive thing and feel like I'm contributing, I can use single-target weapons and still get reasonable relative damage in.

I don't just think that SP is good content on its own, nor do I think it is just a matter of preference, Steel Path is a superior level of content for the sandbox of the game. It is MORE balanced than non-SP.

 

There are a lot of discussions about how broken the core game is, that everything is OP and that it needs to be torn down. What is missing from these discussions is the state of the game. And no, not a portion that just fits to your narrative, but the actual state of SP. Where every Warframe has a unique build and playstyle. Where we have three significantly different build routes for weapon-killing (Viral/Slash, Status Priming, and armor-strip). Where nearly every weapon can kill stuff and the most powerful weapons are only rarely suffocating the less powerful. It isn't flawless, but there is so much good stuff going on. The meta for the game has never been more diverse and we've been getting more things to keep expanding it. Corrosive Green Shards are opening a whole new path for frame/weapon building.

The only place where I feel restricted in SP is in the defense department, if I'm not doing something with shield gating and the frame doesn't have 90% DR I do feel forced into an Adaptation. That kinda sucks, but it's only one mod slot and I've still found that sometimes armor gets me close enough (given other factors line up). Having to build defensively isn't what feels "restrictive," it is that my options in doing so don't feel all that diverse.

 

I hope DE doesn't just continue their trend of encouraging SP, I hope they double down on it as the official "late game" difficulty. I do think there is a lot of work needed in the on-boarding into SP, it is a massive bump in content "difficulty" with no guidance on how to grow your power into it, but as a target and balancing point it is the best "late game" we've ever had by a significant margin.

When you go to make a build, what’s your first consideration?

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Merkranire said:

First of all, and I cannot stress this enough, I said Modless Baseline. Baseline. The starting point. The beginning, the point where equipment stands on its own merit before we customise it. The game gives us a bunch of modless gear and a bunch of mods to modify its damage, abilities, what it can do, anything that mods can do to a piece of equipment. And then schools and gearwheel items and companions and Arcanes, but the start is that piece of equipment with zero mods, ripe for building

Modless is the broadest canvas, no slots burned for “Mandatory Mods”, no capacity lost that someone counters with Forma. That means if you want to load up on Exilus mods across your entire kit of weapons and Warframe, do that and you’ll find a place to use it. If you want to go full Meta, do that and you’ll end up in Steel Path. And any any any build you could possibly want to make involving whatever combination of loadout that has your gun and Warframe perform a certain way, you can do that and then where you take it will influence the gameplay you experience.

Steel Path is more limited because of what it’s meant to be, and there’s no rule saying you can’t take what you earn in Steel Path or anywhere else and throw it into the mix of ways you can combine things to even further expand your options in the non-SP game, which Archons and the new content (whose name eludes me at the moment) are not Steel Path and do not share SP’s modifiers

SP doesnt change the viability of the baseline though. We've had other modes prior to SP that already made certain baseline items (with mods included even) obsolete. Arbitrations practically set the bar for good and bad gear and the good gear viable in arbitrations is viable in SP. Then we have liches and sisters too. All limiting what you can bring to be effective. Not to mention that at some point we also got Disruption, which even at SC levels really showed which weapons and modding worked or not.

As to your last point, both Archons and Netracells practically have SP scaling. While SP is set to +150% at all times, Archons and Cells start at +100% (no armor bonus) and scale with a further +50% per squad member. In addition to that they also apply several other limitations not present in SP, like far more limited gear use (no specters, 3 minute CD on consumables etc), a 1-life restriction and so on. Eximus units are also more common in the two modes. Ontop of that Netracells levels equal those of 1h+ in endless SP. And since enemy damage isnt modified by SP, but depends on enemy level and mob types, both Archons and Cells would pose a higher threat since their levels are for the most part higher and while throwing more eximus units at you. Meaning that if you run a squishy frame on SC and SP otherwise, bringing them to Archons or Cells may not be as appealing since the incoming damage is overall higher and you are only given a single life.

So I dont really understand your gripe with SP when we have mandatory modes that are already more limiting to how you can build. And that we've had far more limiting modes in the past prior to SP makes it even harder to understand your gripe with SP.

[Merkranire]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

SP doesnt change the viability of the baseline though. We've had other modes prior to SP that already made certain baseline items (with mods included even) obsolete. Arbitrations practically set the bar for good and bad gear and the good gear viable in arbitrations is viable in SP. Then we have liches and sisters too. All limiting what you can bring to be effective. Not to mention that at some point we also got Disruption, which even at SC levels really showed which weapons and modding worked or not.

As to your last point, both Archons and Netracells practically have SP scaling. While SP is set to +150% at all times, Archons and Cells start at +100% (no armor bonus) and scale with a further +50% per squad member. In addition to that they also apply several other limitations not present in SP, like far more limited gear use (no specters, 3 minute CD on consumables etc), a 1-life restriction and so on. Eximus units are also more common in the two modes. Ontop of that Netracells levels equal those of 1h+ in endless SP. And since enemy damage isnt modified by SP, but depends on enemy level and mob types, both Archons and Cells would pose a higher threat since their levels are for the most part higher and while throwing more eximus units at you. Meaning that if you run a squishy frame on SC and SP otherwise, bringing them to Archons or Cells may not be as appealing since the incoming damage is overall higher and you are only given a single life.

So I dont really understand your gripe with SP when we have mandatory modes that are already more limiting to how you can build. And that we've had far more limiting modes in the past prior to SP makes it even harder to understand your gripe with SP.

I don’t have a gripe with SP, I have a gripe with how players treat it. Steel Path is great for what it’s meant to be, a place to periodically take your most powerful builds to play (and potentially earn things, but that’s questionably-great). The whole game isn’t your most powerful builds though and you’re shortchanging yourself if you only ever treat it like it is and turn your nose up at alternatives and how you can use them, and if you’re playing around with more builds than what sits in Steel Path you’re going to find that the standard game is host to every other build you can make from the modless baseline across its variety of levels and content and is more balanced and makes more sense than the warped armour scaling and 4-player spawns for 1 player of infinitely-scaling Steel Path.

And the standard game tasks us with jumping across the variety of levels and content for a variety of reasons, including rewards and leveling gear and just plain wanting to use a certain build/loadout a certain way, and because it facilitates every build/loadout we could possibly make from the modless baseline, that gives us every chance to use any build or loadout we could want. You’re going to struggle if you take a loadout built for level 40 into Arbitrations, but we’re not living in Arbitrations or Sorties or Invasions or Nightmares or level 30 or 40 or 80 content or Archons or Netracells, but by all means, try it, because that level 40 build will look different and use different components to a level 60 build and pushing it can make for an interesting fight with surprising dynamic between the pieces of kit. Or you could go vice-versa every so often and really let your build wreck a lower-level mission for the fun of it, though I’m sure you’d be familiar with that sort of gameplay.

 

Steel Path though. Ever since the very start (or at least as from-the-start as I can think of), it’s been hailed as New Game+, the new measuring stick to determine what’s ViAbLe and what’s not, with the implied idea that you blitz your way through the standard game to get to the good stuff, as if the game has been leading up to it and we’re supposed to be spending most of our late-game in it. From the beginning it’s been perpetually offset and unbalanced, where in order to get our collective foot through the door in the first place we have to sacrifice whatever fun stuff we’d earned that can’t cut it against level 100+ enemies with bonkers modifiers because the mode wasn’t meant to be for variety because min-maxed is not variety, min-maxed is specific. And there was a lot that couldn’t cut it, and even today we’re still heavily limited despite the introduction of ways to elevate more variety into the unbalanced game mode because players keep banging on about it.

Ways which, on their own merit, can be made into builds that sit in the standard game and further our ways to build and play or sometimes push our maximum power higher even though the modless stats of our gear aren’t intrinsically adjusted until they can handle Steel Path. I say sometimes because you guys keep laser-focusing on the stuff that can be worked into ever-more-specific builds and loadouts that you can live in (as in not able to set it aside temporarily when it becomes a problem) and push higher into Steel Path in a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy of power-is-a-problem-for-the-rest-of-the-game, even though there’s also a lot of stuff perpetually introduced that can be worth a look and played around with in the standard game as well.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Merkranire

[--Leyenda-yight6]

The idea that the steel path is unbalanced and that only min-maxed buildings survive there is absurd, they simply don't know how to build.

Edited December 31, 2023 by --Leyenda-yight6

[Merkranire]

6 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

The idea that the steel path is unbalanced and that only min-maxed buildings survive there is absurd, they simply don't know how to build.

Oh for #*!%’s sake

Edited January 1 by Merkranire

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I did not read the thread, just adding some context, and my point of view:

When it was introduced, it was supposed to be an alternative place for people to test builds against tough enemies without waiting forever in endless missions for the enemies to get higher levels, COMPARED TO the Simulacrum, where Scott complained that all the youtube videos were just showing the Warframes in a bland blue box.

They explicitly said that they would NOT balance the game around the Steel Path. It wasn't supposed to be something everyone was expected to take part in.

As soon as they rolled out the first balance patch with a decision based on the Steel Path, I knew the slippery slope had been slipped, and we were never going back.

As somebody who plays casually, with sub-optimal builds that "feel fun" and "comfortable" for me, not pushing the boundaries, the Steel Path is a chore to clear... I haven't cleared all the nodes yet, and I have no desire to do so (despite, I think Mastery Rank being tied to clearing nodes as well... but I haven't done Liches or Sisters either, as a protest to the horrible game design present in that entire debacle.)

The fact that it's the default best way to do the current clan event kinda turns me off to the entire thing. I haven't run it once... I probably will a few times before it ends... but not on Steel Path mode, if I can help it... (the other clan guys might drag me along against my will.)

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 1 hora, (PSN)AyinDygra dijo:

I did not read the thread, just adding some context, and my point of view:

When it was introduced, it was supposed to be an alternative place for people to test builds against tough enemies without waiting forever in endless missions for the enemies to get higher levels, COMPARED TO the Simulacrum, where Scott complained that all the youtube videos were just showing the Warframes in a bland blue box.

They explicitly said that they would NOT balance the game around the Steel Path. It wasn't supposed to be something everyone was expected to take part in.

As soon as they rolled out the first balance patch with a decision based on the Steel Path, I knew the slippery slope had been slipped, and we were never going back.

As somebody who plays casually, with sub-optimal builds that "feel fun" and "comfortable" for me, not pushing the boundaries, the Steel Path is a chore to clear... I haven't cleared all the nodes yet, and I have no desire to do so (despite, I think Mastery Rank being tied to clearing nodes as well... but I haven't done Liches or Sisters either, as a protest to the horrible game design present in that entire debacle.)

The fact that it's the default best way to do the current clan event kinda turns me off to the entire thing. I haven't run it once... I probably will a few times before it ends... but not on Steel Path mode, if I can help it... (the other clan guys might drag me along against my will.)

They've said they wouldn't do something several times (crossave/play) but with the increase in power and more options the normal map ended up losing any trace of difficulty (if it ever had difficulty) and the base level steel path becomes increasingly accessible.

Edited January 1 by --Leyenda-yight6

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I don’t have a gripe with SP, I have a gripe with how players treat it. Steel Path is great for what it’s meant to be, a place to periodically take your most powerful builds to play (and potentially earn things, but that’s questionably-great). The whole game isn’t your most powerful builds though and you’re shortchanging yourself if you only ever treat it like it is and turn your nose up at alternatives and how you can use them, and if you’re playing around with more builds than what sits in Steel Path you’re going to find that the standard game is host to every other build you can make from the modless baseline across its variety of levels and content and is more balanced and makes more sense than the warped armour scaling and 4-player spawns for 1 player of infinitely-scaling Steel Path.

And the standard game tasks us with jumping across the variety of levels and content for a variety of reasons, including rewards and leveling gear and just plain wanting to use a certain build/loadout a certain way, and because it facilitates every build/loadout we could possibly make from the modless baseline, that gives us every chance to use any build or loadout we could want. You’re going to struggle if you take a loadout built for level 40 into Arbitrations, but we’re not living in Arbitrations or Sorties or Invasions or Nightmares or level 30 or 40 or 80 content or Archons or Netracells, but by all means, try it, because that level 40 build will look different and use different components to a level 60 build and pushing it can make for an interesting fight with surprising dynamic between the pieces of kit. Or you could go vice-versa every so often and really let your build wreck a lower-level mission for the fun of it, though I’m sure you’d be familiar with that sort of gameplay.

 

Steel Path though. Ever since the very start (or at least as from-the-start as I can think of), it’s been hailed as New Game+, the new measuring stick to determine what’s ViAbLe and what’s not, with the implied idea that you blitz your way through the standard game to get to the good stuff, as if the game has been leading up to it and we’re supposed to be spending most of our late-game in it. From the beginning it’s been perpetually offset and unbalanced, where in order to get our collective foot through the door in the first place we have to sacrifice whatever fun stuff we’d earned that can’t cut it against level 100+ enemies with bonkers modifiers because the mode wasn’t meant to be for variety because min-maxed is not variety, min-maxed is specific. And there was a lot that couldn’t cut it, and even today we’re still heavily limited despite the introduction of ways to elevate more variety into the unbalanced game mode because players keep banging on about it.

Ways which, on their own merit, can be made into builds that sit in the standard game and further our ways to build and play or sometimes push our maximum power higher even though the modless stats of our gear aren’t intrinsically adjusted until they can handle Steel Path. I say sometimes because you guys keep laser-focusing on the stuff that can be worked into ever-more-specific builds and loadouts that you can live in (as in not able to set it aside temporarily when it becomes a problem) and push higher into Steel Path in a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy of power-is-a-problem-for-the-rest-of-the-game, even though there’s also a lot of stuff perpetually introduced that can be worth a look and played around with in the standard game as well.

All of what you say can be linked back to what I said, that it is a misconception by those that dont really care about progress and just want new stuff anyway. In addition to that, everything you mention can be applied to any new content of higher level, I even lined up several in the previous post, including Star Chart content. So there has always been a place where a better build (or an actual build) has a meaning, and where a "build" you might enjoy elsewhere isnt the least viable. SP hasnt changed any of that, it is just a new place of a higher level.

There is no real gameplay difference, since if you like a certain type of gameplay and build for that, all you do if you "build" for lower levels is use different items that play the same. Like AoE? You might use a worse AoE weapon that practically plays the exact same as a better one. Like Assault Rifles? The difference is you likely use a worse one that still results in the same gameplay experience. And it repeats like that for practically any weapon class, it really only comes down to power, which isnt a gameplay difference. The same also applies to frames. Heck most of my frames are built the exact same way as they were long before SP was every introduced. They practically have the same builds now as those they got when I obtained "all" modding options. The few things that have changed is that some of those mods have gotten upgraded, or some have been replaced for a similar effect. Things that would have changed in those build with or without SP as part of the game. So there has been no sacrifice demanded by SP, I've simply used the progress that the game has given me long before that.

It would also be nice if you answered the simple question I asked regarding this. What builds do you refer to that differ a great deal between SC and SP?  

3 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

As somebody who plays casually, with sub-optimal builds that "feel fun" and "comfortable" for me, not pushing the boundaries, the Steel Path is a chore to clear...

You dont really need optimal builds. Just a balanced build that can be done by using mods that have been available for years really. It used to be very limiting when it first released, when there was such a heavy focus on KPM to get any worthwhile amount of Steel Essence. But since acolytes got introduced you can do it with practically anything. Heck most of my SP runs were done with Silva & Aegis Prime after acolytes were added.

Edited January 1 by SneakyErvin

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

All of what you say can be linked back to what I said, that it is a misconception by those that dont really care about progress and just want new stuff anyway. In addition to that, everything you mention can be applied to any new content of higher level, I even lined up several in the previous post, including Star Chart content. So there has always been a place where a better build (or an actual build) has a meaning, and where a "build" you might enjoy elsewhere isnt the least viable. SP hasnt changed any of that, it is just a new place of a higher level.

New stuff is progress, new things to add to the ways we build and play across the content we do. We only progress vertically so far before we turn around and start using the stuff that we’ve earned, and that New Stuff Earned progress far exceeds the point when we can do 9999 Steel Path, the kicker being that if some doof can’t stomach setting the most powerful builds/loadouts aside even temporarily, they’re missing out on any reason to keep earning more stuff since they’re never going to use it to combine with what they already have.

Yes, you lined up several examples of high-level content that we’re supposed to periodically do using builds that may require sacrifice and build consideration (which consideration is a thing anyways from the moment we start equipping mods and start customising our gear for the content we’re about to do), but it’s okay because we’re only doing them periodically and then we can go back to using alternative builds made from the various things we’ve earned in our time of playing. Oh wait… something’s not sitting right here. Maybe this vague feeling of confusion will become clear soon

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is no real gameplay difference, since if you like a certain type of gameplay and build for that, all you do if you "build" for lower levels is use different items that play the same. Like AoE? You might use a worse AoE weapon that practically plays the exact same as a better one. Like Assault Rifles? The difference is you likely use a worse one that still results in the same gameplay experience. And it repeats like that for practically any weapon class, it really only comes down to power, which isnt a gameplay difference. 

You build using the things what make a build; you start from the modless start and you identify how you want to play using the gear you want to use for the content you’re about to do, then you choose your mods and whatever accordingly; is this damage mod going to help or hinder my experience? What about this specific Arcane? What alternatives do I have in my selection of build-making options? I don’t want to end up like @DrBorris, where my gun is way overtuned for the content and is rendering my CC consideration moot, so I reconsider whether I truely need 6 damage mods on my gun and instead pick what other attribute I want to customise, and i have to figure out which damage mod I want to shed because it’s not always so cleanly defined even if I’m not doing something like trying to proc electric on the Grineer because I want to. And if I have a particular intertwining of build/loadout, there’s a chance that changing something like a mod means reconsidering how I’ve built something else due to an effect being added or removed. I’ve had Arbitrations shift mission type while I was deliberating, and now it’s a different mission and I could either reconsider my build again or just jump into it to see how I fare (with things like my Heavy Weapon as backup if things get too hairy) and potentially discover an unexpected effectiveness in my kit for the mission. And then after that I can tackle other missions in that 50-70ish level range or step outside of it (preferably higher), and then if I want to change something up or do something different I change whatever I need to accordingly and draw once more upon that pool of components and missions I’ve accrued over my years of play and I’m going to be earning more as I use the stuff I’ve earned.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The same also applies to frames. Heck most of my frames are built the exact same way as they were long before SP was every introduced. They practically have the same builds now as those they got when I obtained "all" modding options. The few things that have changed is that some of those mods have gotten upgraded, or some have been replaced for a similar effect. Things that would have changed in those build with or without SP as part of the game. So there has been no sacrifice demanded by SP, I've simply used the progress that the game has given me long before that.

Ahh, this is that feeling of vague confusion. You didn’t even need Steel Path to tell you to stick to one build, you were already doing it before SP existed while snubbing the builds the game was more-designed around because they didn’t wreck the game. DE introduced more mods and ways to customise our frames ever since SP’s introduction, but nothing caught your eye to entice you away from SP and back into the standard game apparently.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It would also be nice if you answered the simple question I asked regarding this. What builds do you refer to that differ a great deal between SC and SP?  

Well, what would you like to see? I hypothetically have every single component to build with and a bunch of modless gear at the start. I could load up on mods like Exilus and punch-through and reload and firerate to customise how my gun feels, or I can start equipping damage mods and start building them into specific roles, or some combination of the two while I play Inaros with that Archon mod that procs corrosive when toxin happens while using Inaros’ Augment that takes the damage type from my toxin melee weapon and applies it to his sandstorm while I’ve got every Peculiar mod equipped.

For any mission I only need enough damage and survival which can come from different sources including from within the mission or from a bonus designed to entice alternative equipment usage like the Arbitrarion or Archon bonuses, anything else is free slots I can equip whatever I want, and depending on whether I’m jumping into Steel Path or Arbitrations or a level 40 relic crack, those free slots will be a certain amount depending on what I’m bringing and how the choices influence where I get my damage and survival.

Steel Path is understandably going to be more limited and things like slash and armour stripping and enemy density-based abilities and single-target versus AoE are going to be impacted in terms of effectiveness due to the unique modifiers of Steel Path

edit: Oh, and on top of things like Spectres and other gear items (I was riding around on my horse doing bounties and wielding my secondary like some gunslinger of old just recently), I got things like Dragon Keys at my disposal that I use every so often, but don’t tell anyone or I’ll get told I don’t know how to build 🤫 . Everyone knows you’re only allowed to use Dragon Keys to reach max level, though DE clearly didn’t get the memo

Edited January 1 by Merkranire

[NaoQalli]

On 2023-12-27 at 6:30 PM, Corvid said:

[CITATION NEEDED]

I'll give you something that speaks louder than citation: actions.

Vivergate. Trinity nerfs. The great nerfening of Ember. CO nerf. Ash and Blade Storm nerf. Blood Rush nerf. Combo system nerf. Trinity nerf (again). Limbo stasis nerf against Sentients. LoS nerf Maiming strike nerf. Catchmoon nerf. Blink nerf. Energy Vampire nerf. Trinity Link nerf (yes, again). Marked to death nerf. Simulor nerf. Khora Venari being able to heal defense target nerf.

Nothing above sounds like Steve's team trying to keep the power ceiling down and tangible?

Edited January 2 by NaoQalli

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Well, what would you like to see? I hypothetically have every single component to build with and a bunch of modless gear at the start. I could load up on mods like Exilus and punch-through and reload and firerate to customise how my gun feels, or I can start equipping damage mods and start building them into specific roles, or some combination of the two while I play Inaros with that Archon mod that procs corrosive when toxin happens while using Inaros’ Augment that takes the damage type from my toxin melee weapon and applies it to his sandstorm while I’ve got every Peculiar mod equipped.

For any mission I only need enough damage and survival which can come from different sources including from within the mission or from a bonus designed to entice alternative equipment usage like the Arbitrarion or Archon bonuses, anything else is free slots I can equip whatever I want, and depending on whether I’m jumping into Steel Path or Arbitrations or a level 40 relic crack, those free slots will be a certain amount depending on what I’m bringing and how the choices influence where I get my damage and survival.

Steel Path is understandably going to be more limited and things like slash and armour stripping and enemy density-based abilities and single-target versus AoE are going to be impacted in terms of effectiveness due to the unique modifiers of Steel Path

edit: Oh, and on top of things like Spectres and other gear items (I was riding around on my horse doing bounties and wielding my secondary like some gunslinger of old just recently), I got things like Dragon Keys at my disposal that I use every so often, but don’t tell anyone or I’ll get told I don’t know how to build 🤫 . Everyone knows you’re only allowed to use Dragon Keys to reach max level, though DE clearly didn’t get the memo

I'll just settle with answering this sections since all you do is really talk in circles.

None of what you describe gets removed in SP. You willingly downgrade for other content, but you arent actually sacrificing anything. You skipping damage doesnt actually alter your build, you bringing peculiars doesnt actually alter your build, since they do nothing out of a gameplay perspective, they arent tied to progress and so on. That you earlier also state that builds start happening the moment you start modding is just uhm wrong. It's like saying you have a level 10 build in a game like Diablo or something, which you uhm dont have.

Builds come into the picture when they actually matter, when there is a meaningful impact of your choice. There is nothing like that when you "build" for lower levels, all you do is make the low level feel like the high level if you downgrade enough and there is little point to it when you can do everything in the higher version, as you can in SP compared to SC.

You also keep burping out the misconceptions of SP. Now you claim things like slash and armor stripping is a must. You also claim single target versus AoE will be impacted in terms of effectiveness due to SP modifiers. Neither are true claims. You can go for hours in SP without ever touching slash or stripping effects, I did so for a very long time while still keeping the KPM high, and still do so on most frames I play. And single target vs AoE applies to the whole game when it comes to effectiveness, since we never face single mobs so AoE will always be more efficient. It isnt some SP related thing. Arbitration puts even higher focus on AoE in order to handle drones most effectively since they are mostly blocked by invulnerable enemies. edit: I gotta say that DE made the oddest choice with drones, they should have been designed as pure single target enemies.

Plus, none of what you mention actually changes gameplay. Adding a bunch of pointless mods and going low enough in level will still make the gun feel exactly the same as it would with proper mods in higher content. And like you mentioned regarding a gun that renders CC moot, so you want to remove damage mods so you can CC. Well you just made low level content the same as SP then, so why do you run regular content that is the same as the higher content that allows you both to use the mods you've gathered and the CC of the frame/weapon you use? You end up with the exact same gameplay in both cases, where the lower level mission actually requires you to sacrifice something to be able to play a certain way. The CC itself is also less useful since there are way fewer mobs that also hit for far far less. So SP in that case would further enable your playstyle of choice.

22 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Ahh, this is that feeling of vague confusion. You didn’t even need Steel Path to tell you to stick to one build, you were already doing it before SP existed while snubbing the builds the game was more-designed around because they didn’t wreck the game. DE introduced more mods and ways to customise our frames ever since SP’s introduction, but nothing caught your eye to entice you away from SP and back into the standard game apparently.

So using mods designed by DE to be used was using builds the game was not designed around? Grade-A logic there. Also, you have no idea how I built. Or are you saying that building for efficiency and duration since I like using abilities and not having to recast buffs too often is not an intended design by DE? But I guess you assumed that I'm an overboard strength user or something, one of those that keep increasing damage even if there is no way to ½-shot something etc. I tried some of those builds on Rhino and Chroma for instance, but in the end they are utterly pointless, even in SP etc. I think I have maybe 3 frames at the moment that go beyond +100% in their builds. I've also never relied on shield gate abuse, I've always prefered hp+armor frames, never really built those into absurdity either. So SP doesnt impose any sacrifice or limitations really, since the builds I use personally are pretty much just middle of the pack balanced. 

And there is nothing in those builds I could remove to make them behave differently, since the things removed would simply just remove power while the builds still play the same in SC as they do in SP. The only frames and builds I wont take to SP are the ones I do not enjoy, but then again, that applies just the same to SC and everything else in the game. You will for instance never see me touch Yareli, not even with a 10 foot pole.

Or do you think something like a massively ranged Loki is somehow not an appropriate build on the SC? You dont like to have things that improves the speed of the missions? Well good news for you then, you can have horrible builds in SP aswell to make things go as slow as they possibly can!

Edited January 2 by SneakyErvin

[Merkranire]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'll just settle with answering this sections since all you do is really talk in circles.

None of what you describe gets removed in SP. You willingly downgrade for other content, but you arent actually sacrificing anything. You skipping damage doesnt actually alter your build, you bringing peculiars doesnt actually alter your build, since they do nothing out of a gameplay perspective, they arent tied to progress and so on. That you earlier also state that builds start happening the moment you start modding is just uhm wrong. It's like saying you have a level 10 build in a game like Diablo or something, which you uhm dont have.

Builds come into the picture when they actually matter, when there is a meaningful impact of your choice. There is nothing like that when you "build" for lower levels, all you do is make the low level feel like the high level if you downgrade enough and there is little point to it when you can do everything in the higher version, as you can in SP compared to SC.

You also keep burping out the misconceptions of SP. Now you claim things like slash and armor stripping is a must. You also claim single target versus AoE will be impacted in terms of effectiveness due to SP modifiers. Neither are true claims. You can go for hours in SP without ever touching slash or stripping effects, I did so for a very long time while still keeping the KPM high, and still do so on most frames I play. And single target vs AoE applies to the whole game when it comes to effectiveness, since we never face single mobs so AoE will always be more efficient. It isnt some SP related thing. Arbitration puts even higher focus on AoE in order to handle drones most effectively since they are mostly blocked by invulnerable enemies. edit: I gotta say that DE made the oddest choice with drones, they should have been designed as pure single target enemies.

Plus, none of what you mention actually changes gameplay. Adding a bunch of pointless mods and going low enough in level will still make the gun feel exactly the same as it would with proper mods in higher content. And like you mentioned regarding a gun that renders CC moot, so you want to remove damage mods so you can CC. Well you just made low level content the same as SP then, so why do you run regular content that is the same as the higher content that allows you both to use the mods you've gathered and the CC of the frame/weapon you use? You end up with the exact same gameplay in both cases, where the lower level mission actually requires you to sacrifice something to be able to play a certain way. The CC itself is also less useful since there are way fewer mobs that also hit for far far less. So SP in that case would further enable your playstyle of choice.

So using mods designed by DE to be used was using builds the game was not designed around? Grade-A logic there. Also, you have no idea how I built. Or are you saying that building for efficiency and duration since I like using abilities and not having to recast buffs too often is not an intended design by DE? But I guess you assumed that I'm an overboard strength user or something, one of those that keep increasing damage even if there is no way to ½-shot something etc. I tried some of those builds on Rhino and Chroma for instance, but in the end they are utterly pointless, even in SP etc. I think I have maybe 3 frames at the moment that go beyond +100% in their builds. I've also never relied on shield gate abuse, I've always prefered hp+armor frames, never really built those into absurdity either. So SP doesnt impose any sacrifice or limitations really, since the builds I use personally are pretty much just middle of the pack balanced. 

And there is nothing in those builds I could remove to make them behave differently, since the things removed would simply just remove power while the builds still play the same in SC as they do in SP. The only frames and builds I wont take to SP are the ones I do not enjoy, but then again, that applies just the same to SC and everything else in the game. You will for instance never see me touch Yareli, not even with a 10 foot pole.

Or do you think something like a massively ranged Loki is somehow not an appropriate build on the SC? You dont like to have things that improves the speed of the missions? Well good news for you then, you can have horrible builds in SP aswell to make things go as slow as they possibly can!

Man, you really have no idea how different it can be playing Steel Path and Standard, do you? How many builds and loadout combinations the standard game does indeed support; it’s surprisingly robust and can put up a fight if you let the game entertain you

edit: 🤔 I think there’s a fundamental mentality at play here that I’m not quite getting.

Here’s a thought for you; I think building for level 100 content and taking it into level 40 is the game working as intended. It’s not stopping you and the mission rolls over and dies accordingly. Do you agree?

Edited January 2 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Plus, none of what you mention actually changes gameplay. Adding a bunch of pointless mods and going low enough in level will still make the gun feel exactly the same as it would with proper mods in higher content. And like you mentioned regarding a gun that renders CC moot, so you want to remove damage mods so you can CC. Well you just made low level content the same as SP then, so why do you run regular content that is the same as the higher content that allows you both to use the mods you've gathered and the CC of the frame/weapon you use? You end up with the exact same gameplay in both cases, where the lower level mission actually requires you to sacrifice something to be able to play a certain way. The CC itself is also less useful since there are way fewer mobs that also hit for far far less. So SP in that case would further enable your playstyle of choice.

Hang on, this (among many other things, but narrowing down) stands out as being odd. You’re acting like it’s a matter of just taking mods off, leaving holes in your build, and that enemies aren’t able to threaten so CC isn’t useful

Edited January 2 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Man, you really have no idea how different it can be playing Steel Path and Standard, do you? How many builds and loadout combinations the standard game does indeed support; it’s surprisingly robust and can put up a fight if you let the game entertain you

edit: 🤔 I think there’s a fundamental mentality at play here that I’m not quite getting.

Here’s a thought for you; I think building for level 100 content and taking it into level 40 is the game working as intended. It’s not stopping you and the mission rolls over and dies accordingly. Do you agree?

You keep saying how different it can be but you give absolutely no concrete examples of what is different. All weapon types work on SC, they all also work in SP. The difference is you pick weapon A instead of weapon B for SP due to power. A Dual Sword will still play exactly the same in both cases, they'll just have different names and stats. And the same goes for every gun with a similar trigger and damage dealing mechanic. Frames are also limited to 4 skills, meaning the difference between SC and SP for them is minimal. Some frames do get impacted as the levels increase, but that impact was there long before SP, where the frame turns from a map wiper to a CC.

To your question. Yes, obviously. That is simply standard game progression, you build for the highest content available and practically use it everywhere unless you specifically want to gimp yourself for some reason. Though I have a hard time to find a reason why you'd hit up level 40 content with your level 100 build when in most cases there is a level 100+ version of the level 40 mission available.

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Hang on, this (among many other things, but narrowing down) stands out as being odd. You’re acting like it’s a matter of just taking mods off, leaving holes in your build, and that enemies aren’t able to threaten so CC isn’t useful

No, no holes. Actually I have no idea where you got that idea from when I was using your own example regarding CC and gun damage. And yes, if there isnt a threat using CC is quite pointless. The whole reason with CC is to remove threats. All you do by downgrading so you can use CC in lower content (even though pointless) is going through hoops, instead of just jumping into higher content where you can already use those things without downgrading. How does your gameplay alter?

What magical modding is it you utilize in lower content to make it vastly different (or different at all) in gameplay to that of SP with full bells and whistles? Lets just look at Loki as an example. He utilizes mods obtained from old Star Chart content, he uses this in SP aswell. So what exactly changes with a "Star Chart build" for him? Or do you claim that corrupted mods and maximized range is not a "Star Chart build" even though all items used in the frame build are obtained through the Star Chart? Is there some rule that says SC should be cleared slower?

Or Vauban, where the same build for SC is used in SP, since well his kit simply works that way. What is there to replace to make SC play differently? Range? Duration? Efficiency? Health? Strength? What mod would replace one of those options to make a gameplay difference? 

Kullervo is another. You might replace his weapon and dump his strength, but his skills will still result in you gaining enough damage to do exatly the same he does in SP with the same skills involved. Reduce efficiency maybe? Well... why? Using your skills less often makes him play differently how exactly? You shoot gun or attack with normal melee when you cant telestab things, you just end up shooting or meleeing regularly more.

Protea. Sure lets say you reduce your duration. Oh you need to cast your turret skill slightly more often? Big gameplay change while her skill still scales enough to kill SC and arbitrations etc.

Ash. Lets dump everything on him. Oh wait, his 3 and 4 will still insta kill SC content. I guess you can skip his augment too so you need to manually execute finishers after a teleport. But... that can already be done on SP if you are simply into self torture and clunkyness...

And this goes on for practically every frame on the list. There isnt enough modding or skills to alter the gameplay to a point where it is different between SC and SP (or other high content).

I also dont see the problem you have with SP since the "problem" you see with it has been part of the game with every single new higher level piece of content. And when you act this way towards SP it is odd you dont act the same towards Archons and Cells. Why is it so?

 

[Jarriaga]

On 2023-12-29 at 7:11 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

Further Steel Path-exclusive rewards is only going to further the idea that players need to sacrifice the very variety they’re earning and playing the game for in order to keep up.

I don't see a problem with that. I don't think every single "fun" option should be viable when optimization is the point.

On 2023-12-29 at 7:11 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

Like, sure, players were already doing that even before SP and then lamenting that the game was too easy and limited because they couldn’t stop, but that was due to something other than what the game told them to do.

Something other? Something other like what? The fact even old/pre-TSP WF had so much powercreep that devs had to add a hard mode is no one but the dev's fault.

On 2023-12-29 at 7:11 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

Nowadays the game is implying that players need to go against the point of the game

With said point being (Other than "grind for the absolute sake of grinding with some lore/story here and there") ? Care to quote an official dev interview, article, or public wording saying the game was meant to be "play while eating a sandwich" easy? The closest you'll get is "bite-sized content", which is an argument for mission length rather than mission intensity.

On 2023-12-29 at 7:11 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

and shoehorn themselves into a comparative few builds and just be as unbalanced as possible because the game mode is unbalanced

We have so much powercreep that even Yareli, Nyx, Oberon and Vauban can successfully do TSP. I don't buy your shoehorn argument.

And bear in mind current TSP is still easier than pre-The Old Blood WF. If players could level cap when the game was harder and had significantly less powercreep than now then I don't see where you're coming from unless your expectation is to play an unmodded frame/weapon.

On 2023-12-29 at 7:11 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

and with the community furthering the narrative, that just means that once someone hits Steel Path (and even before if someone who thinks SP is endgame gets hold of a newbie), all notion of seeing an alternative side of the game gets lost and players quit because it’s either unbalanced and doesn’t make sense, or too grindy and they need to sink 30 forma into Sevagoth  and they don’t even get to use the stuff they earn

I have long suspected you're one of Reb's alt accounts, but this last point you made is disingenuous even within that context because that's true for every single long-lasting, constantly-updated game though.

Giving you the benefit of doubt and not considering you're Reb's alt: Do you honestly think WoW, FF14 and PoE advertise what a new player gets without pushing them to progress towards their corresponding endgames when the game's own devs are on record recognizing the level of powercreep they've added make the games boring? You can't expect endless powercreep without the game becoming boring due to lack of effort or engagement.

Edited January 3 by Jarriaga

[Merkranire]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You keep saying how different it can be but you give absolutely no concrete examples of what is different. All weapon types work on SC, they all also work in SP. The difference is you pick weapon A instead of weapon B for SP due to power. A Dual Sword will still play exactly the same in both cases, they'll just have different names and stats. And the same goes for every gun with a similar trigger and damage dealing mechanic. Frames are also limited to 4 skills, meaning the difference between SC and SP for them is minimal. Some frames do get impacted as the levels increase, but that impact was there long before SP, where the frame turns from a map wiper to a CC.

To your question. Yes, obviously. That is simply standard game progression, you build for the highest content available and practically use it everywhere unless you specifically want to gimp yourself for some reason. Though I have a hard time to find a reason why you'd hit up level 40 content with your level 100 build when in most cases there is a level 100+ version of the level 40 mission available.

No, no holes. Actually I have no idea where you got that idea from when I was using your own example regarding CC and gun damage. And yes, if there isnt a threat using CC is quite pointless. The whole reason with CC is to remove threats. All you do by downgrading so you can use CC in lower content (even though pointless) is going through hoops, instead of just jumping into higher content where you can already use those things without downgrading. How does your gameplay alter?

What magical modding is it you utilize in lower content to make it vastly different (or different at all) in gameplay to that of SP with full bells and whistles? Lets just look at Loki as an example. He utilizes mods obtained from old Star Chart content, he uses this in SP aswell. So what exactly changes with a "Star Chart build" for him? Or do you claim that corrupted mods and maximized range is not a "Star Chart build" even though all items used in the frame build are obtained through the Star Chart? Is there some rule that says SC should be cleared slower?

Or Vauban, where the same build for SC is used in SP, since well his kit simply works that way. What is there to replace to make SC play differently? Range? Duration? Efficiency? Health? Strength? What mod would replace one of those options to make a gameplay difference? 

Kullervo is another. You might replace his weapon and dump his strength, but his skills will still result in you gaining enough damage to do exatly the same he does in SP with the same skills involved. Reduce efficiency maybe? Well... why? Using your skills less often makes him play differently how exactly? You shoot gun or attack with normal melee when you cant telestab things, you just end up shooting or meleeing regularly more.

Protea. Sure lets say you reduce your duration. Oh you need to cast your turret skill slightly more often? Big gameplay change while her skill still scales enough to kill SC and arbitrations etc.

Ash. Lets dump everything on him. Oh wait, his 3 and 4 will still insta kill SC content. I guess you can skip his augment too so you need to manually execute finishers after a teleport. But... that can already be done on SP if you are simply into self torture and clunkyness...

And this goes on for practically every frame on the list. There isnt enough modding or skills to alter the gameplay to a point where it is different between SC and SP (or other high content).

I also dont see the problem you have with SP since the "problem" you see with it has been part of the game with every single new higher level piece of content. And when you act this way towards SP it is odd you dont act the same towards Archons and Cells. Why is it so?

 

Oh my god, you can’t bring yourself to find out for yourself how different it can be, and I’m not going to sit here and describe a play-by-play for every single frame and weapon and build combination to you because you think you’re so good at theory crafting you can simulate the experience in your head and decided that there’s no difference, not because I can’t, but because there’s so many difference between jumping into the game and actually being concerned with things like positioning and target priority and various levels of CC in Standard which is built with that kind of stuff in mind, and building for Steel Path which haphazardly throws full-spawnrates of carelessly unbalanced enemies against us and then taking it outside of SP.

For starters, Sneaky, our kit doesn’t work in isolation. You can build Loki like you’re going to take him into Steel Path, but depending on how your weapons are built, there’s going to be differences in what enemy you shoot and how effective CC will be since they may or may not die immediately. You may consider survival mods to provide a buffer while wielding weapons built the way you want them to work for the content you’re doing, but depending on how far….

Actually, I give up. According to you, we’re either jumping into Steel Path, or bored to tears in Standard. Much as you say otherwise, you are part of the reason why someone would feel pressured into living in Steel Path, because they sure as hell aren’t being taught or encouraged by you how to build for Steel Path and how to build for not-Steel Path. So more people treat Steel Path like it’s meant to be the balanced part of the game, then find out it’s lacking in variety, and then want it more accessible which requires even more power introduced to elevate more options into Steel Path, and then we need Titanium Path to compensate for the mode that was supposed to be limited because it was for minmaxing. And we’re still lacking in build variety, though by this point I think your idea of a build is confusing and makes no sense

[Merkranire]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I also dont see the problem you have with SP since the "problem" you see with it has been part of the game with every single new higher level piece of content. And when you act this way towards SP it is odd you dont act the same towards Archons and Cells. Why is it so?

 

If I told you once, I’ve told you a thousand times, Ervin, and this would be why I keep repeating my damn self because you don’t seem to get the point regardless of what it is; I don’t have a problem with Steel Path, I have a problem with how players treat it as The Place To be. The game isn’t linear, it never has been! We’re tasked with jumping around all over the place to get the most out of everything we earn, we’re not meant to superglue certain mods and certain loadouts in place, and if you’ve been thinking that we are from the very beginning, I can only imagine that your early days were filled with confusion as to why the game kept asking you to do high and low-level content even hundreds of hours in even though you were only ever built for high-level and never using the alternative stuff you earned.

7 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't see a problem with that. I don't think every single "fun" option should be viable when optimization is the point.

I don’t either! That’s what the standard game is for!

And if you think I’m one of Rebecca’s alts, I have questions. I would have this game force players to play like they claim to want, and then when they go “I wish there was some way to mix it up” when they inevitably get bored, I’d just shrug. Because the game lets us do that, but it’s apparently not desired

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Oh my god, you can’t bring yourself to find out for yourself how different it can be, and I’m not going to sit here and describe a play-by-play for every single frame and weapon and build combination to you because you think you’re so good at theory crafting you can simulate the experience in your head and decided that there’s no difference, not because I can’t, but because there’s so many difference between jumping into the game and actually being concerned with things like positioning and target priority and various levels of CC in Standard which is built with that kind of stuff in mind, and building for Steel Path which haphazardly throws full-spawnrates of carelessly unbalanced enemies against us and then taking it outside of SP.

For starters, Sneaky, our kit doesn’t work in isolation. You can build Loki like you’re going to take him into Steel Path, but depending on how your weapons are built, there’s going to be differences in what enemy you shoot and how effective CC will be since they may or may not die immediately. You may consider survival mods to provide a buffer while wielding weapons built the way you want them to work for the content you’re doing, but depending on how far….

Actually, I give up. According to you, we’re either jumping into Steel Path, or bored to tears in Standard. Much as you say otherwise, you are part of the reason why someone would feel pressured into living in Steel Path, because they sure as hell aren’t being taught or encouraged by you how to build for Steel Path and how to build for not-Steel Path. So more people treat Steel Path like it’s meant to be the balanced part of the game, then find out it’s lacking in variety, and then want it more accessible which requires even more power introduced to elevate more options into Steel Path, and then we need Titanium Path to compensate for the mode that was supposed to be limited because it was for minmaxing. And we’re still lacking in build variety, though by this point I think your idea of a build is confusing and makes no sense

Examples, that is all I ask. And what you describe here is what I'm saying, that you (and others) ignore progress. You are effectively downgrading yourself, since even for the SC we've gotten gear rewards far beyond it. So it is not a "problem" tied to SP since it has always been there the moment something higher comes along that incentivices us to use the progress handed to us previously. Every single new mode that isnt just a re-hash of SC does this. CC was dead when I joined the game 6+ years ago and the most basic modding trivialized the SC aswell. And you keep saying carelessly unbalanced enemies in SP, where and how? 

Yet nothing actually changed with SP since what worked in arbitrations worked in SP aswell. So why is SP the issue of focus for you? Like I said I use the same builds now that I used prior to SP releasing, and prior to Arbis and liches aswell. The minor difference are the items added post-SP, which are now part of those builds, but those builds already handled SP even though they werent built for SP but for the rest of the game already. So how exactly has SP changed anything to make you host such animosity towards it?

No, and you arent reading what is written. As I've said, just right above here most recently. I use the same builds in SP that were available long before it was added. Those that cannot utilize a variety of builds in SP are limited by not having the items to allow them to do so, and are likely hitting up SP way too early. However, again, it would help alot to see where you are coming from if you gave some concrete examples of builds that suddenly do not work in SP, builds that actually use things that we used for years on the SC.

14 hours ago, Merkranire said:

If I told you once, I’ve told you a thousand times, Ervin, and this would be why I keep repeating my damn self because you don’t seem to get the point regardless of what it is; I don’t have a problem with Steel Path, I have a problem with how players treat it as The Place To be. The game isn’t linear, it never has been! We’re tasked with jumping around all over the place to get the most out of everything we earn, we’re not meant to superglue certain mods and certain loadouts in place, and if you’ve been thinking that we are from the very beginning, I can only imagine that your early days were filled with confusion as to why the game kept asking you to do high and low-level content even hundreds of hours in even though you were only ever built for high-level and never using the alternative stuff you earned.

There is nothing in the game that incentivices us to use lower versions of items when we get higher ones just in order to jump into lower content again to farm something we've missed. Your claim is that we sacrifice things by making "SP builds" but we dont, since the idea of using the best items have always been the idea no matter if low content is frequently visited or not. It is the core of these games, making farming as efficient as possible, since that is our right due to having farmed the items that enables us to do the most efficient farming in lower content when we need to revisit it.

It's also hilarious that you try to downplay people by saying things like you imagine their early days were filled with confusion since the game asks us to go to high and low level content constantly. Are you seriously under some imagination that WF is unique in this sense? Never played an MMO? Diablo games? Borderlands? Or any other similar game that constantly sends you to content that is trivial in order to get something specific. Do you really think people sitting at GRift 100 farming are going to swap over to a new build just because they need to go do some T13 NRifts for new keys or some T13 bounties for some upgrade materials?

And what is wrong with people treating SP as the place to be? You even say we are supposed to get the most out of what we earn, doesnt that also imply we should earn the most we can when we try to earn? Which would be SP since it has always been more rewarding from day 1. Meaning I get more out of what I've earned by doing SP, especially if I'm trying to farm rare materials like Morphics, Argon or similar. I still need to jump all over to earn what I'm actually after. I cant sit at Paulus and hope for Argon and I cant sit at Mot and hope for Morphics. And if I want a better more targeted yield of relics I will likely hit up a disruption isntead of a survival no matter if that is done on SP or SC. Then if I do head to Disruption, the build would still be about the same role, single target killing in the most efficient way. So if I have a TTK at 5 sec per demo on SP and use other items to achieve the same on SC the two will end up with the same exact gameplay. So why would I downgrade to do SC at the same speed as SP while also getting less loot overall? When SP not only results in the same amount of relics but also gives me room to use all the goodies I've farmed over the years without worries to trivialize it too much. Plus it might actually give me a chance and reason to pop into operator, either due to getting downed or to feel a need to strip demo armor. More systems used that would have no point on SC.

 

[Merkranire]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Examples, that is all I ask. And what you describe here is what I'm saying, that you (and others) ignore progress. You are effectively downgrading yourself, since even for the SC we've gotten gear rewards far beyond it. So it is not a "problem" tied to SP since it has always been there the moment something higher comes along that incentivices us to use the progress handed to us previously. Every single new mode that isnt just a re-hash of SC does this. CC was dead when I joined the game 6+ years ago and the most basic modding trivialized the SC aswell. And you keep saying carelessly unbalanced enemies in SP, where and how? 

Yet nothing actually changed with SP since what worked in arbitrations worked in SP aswell. So why is SP the issue of focus for you? Like I said I use the same builds now that I used prior to SP releasing, and prior to Arbis and liches aswell. The minor difference are the items added post-SP, which are now part of those builds, but those builds already handled SP even though they werent built for SP but for the rest of the game already. So how exactly has SP changed anything to make you host such animosity towards it?

No, and you arent reading what is written. As I've said, just right above here most recently. I use the same builds in SP that were available long before it was added. Those that cannot utilize a variety of builds in SP are limited by not having the items to allow them to do so, and are likely hitting up SP way too early. However, again, it would help alot to see where you are coming from if you gave some concrete examples of builds that suddenly do not work in SP, builds that actually use things that we used for years on the SC.

There is nothing in the game that incentivices us to use lower versions of items when we get higher ones just in order to jump into lower content again to farm something we've missed. Your claim is that we sacrifice things by making "SP builds" but we dont, since the idea of using the best items have always been the idea no matter if low content is frequently visited or not. It is the core of these games, making farming as efficient as possible, since that is our right due to having farmed the items that enables us to do the most efficient farming in lower content when we need to revisit it.

It's also hilarious that you try to downplay people by saying things like you imagine their early days were filled with confusion since the game asks us to go to high and low level content constantly. Are you seriously under some imagination that WF is unique in this sense? Never played an MMO? Diablo games? Borderlands? Or any other similar game that constantly sends you to content that is trivial in order to get something specific. Do you really think people sitting at GRift 100 farming are going to swap over to a new build just because they need to go do some T13 NRifts for new keys or some T13 bounties for some upgrade materials?

And what is wrong with people treating SP as the place to be? You even say we are supposed to get the most out of what we earn, doesnt that also imply we should earn the most we can when we try to earn? Which would be SP since it has always been more rewarding from day 1. Meaning I get more out of what I've earned by doing SP, especially if I'm trying to farm rare materials like Morphics, Argon or similar. I still need to jump all over to earn what I'm actually after. I cant sit at Paulus and hope for Argon and I cant sit at Mot and hope for Morphics. And if I want a better more targeted yield of relics I will likely hit up a disruption isntead of a survival no matter if that is done on SP or SC. Then if I do head to Disruption, the build would still be about the same role, single target killing in the most efficient way. So if I have a TTK at 5 sec per demo on SP and use other items to achieve the same on SC the two will end up with the same exact gameplay. So why would I downgrade to do SC at the same speed as SP while also getting less loot overall? When SP not only results in the same amount of relics but also gives me room to use all the goodies I've farmed over the years without worries to trivialize it too much. Plus it might actually give me a chance and reason to pop into operator, either due to getting downed or to feel a need to strip demo armor. More systems used that would have no point on SC.

 

All I’m going to say is what you’ve already heard; getting the most out of everything we earn is more than just making builds to farm, and you’ve been ignoring the strength of this game since before SP dropped, and woe to any newbie who crosses your path

edit: Argh, this is so frustrating talking to your narrow-minded ass. This game is only passingly designed like Diablo or WoW, our stats do not change much if at all when we rank up and the whole mod system is designed with a “Power comes with a literal cost” design, which means you either sacrifice customisation for power or power for customisation which isn’t a problem because the game supports it if you would only let it do the thing it’s designed to do. And because of the way it’s set up power can become customisation if we do something like slightly over- or under-build a piece of kit to shift the dynamic for a certain mission, or customisation can become power when something like punch-through lets us take advantage of piercing multiple things (it’s a blurry line for many things), but the important thing is that power isn’t everything, and different missions only require enough of it (which will vary from gear to gear and loadout to loadout and mission to mission) so that we’re then free to explore alternative ways to build and play, and because the game scatters its rewards across a variety of levels we perpetually get the chance to figure out how we’re going to get enough power and enough customisation, instead of barfing a bunch of damage and survival into our gear with little concern for how we want to play and even less concern for anything the game wants to throw at us

Edited January 5 by Merkranire
accidental post

[Merkranire]

-deleted-

Edited January 5 by Merkranire
Trying to not lose patience

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Merkranire said:

All I’m going to say is what you’ve already heard; getting the most out of everything we earn is more than just making builds to farm, and you’ve been ignoring the strength of this game since before SP dropped, and woe to any newbie who crosses your path

edit: Argh, this is so frustrating talking to your narrow-minded ass. This game is only passingly designed like Diablo or WoW, our stats do not change much if at all when we rank up and the whole mod system is designed with a “Power comes with a literal cost” design, which means you either sacrifice customisation for power or power for customisation which isn’t a problem because the game supports it if you would only let it do the thing it’s designed to do. And because of the way it’s set up power can become customisation if we do something like slightly over- or under-build a piece of kit to shift the dynamic for a certain mission, or customisation can become power when something like punch-through lets us take advantage of piercing multiple things (it’s a blurry line for many things), but the important thing is that power isn’t everything, and different missions only require enough of it (which will vary from gear to gear and loadout to loadout and mission to mission) so that we’re then free to explore alternative ways to build and play, and because the game scatters its rewards across a variety of levels we perpetually get the chance to figure out how we’re going to get enough power and enough customisation, instead of barfing a bunch of damage and survival into our gear with little concern for how we want to play and even less concern for anything the game wants to throw at us

And all that is also available all the same in SP. Give examples on how it isnt since that is what you try to claim. SC alone results in exactly what you claim is unique to SP, since there is a vast difference between earth and end of the SC planets for instance, or if we look at fissures lith versus axi and so on. So if you enjoy building a specific way for say earth or venus, or maybe mars, then you should be just as upset with Mot, Eris, Sedna, Kuva Fortress and so on. Oh and I must have missed the memo regarding punch through not being effective in SP.

Plus even with the most basic modding all of the SC is faceroll. So you do effectively need to go naked or out of your way with a special approch unrelated to your modding to make it feel "engaging". Like making up your own rules like "I'm not allowed to kill mobs that arent CCed", "I'm not allowed to use operator", "I'm not allowed to use defense reductions/strips", "I'm not allowed to use x element" etc. All things just as available in SP. And in SP there is likely a higher chance to allow for such things in a meaningful way if you actually seek "engaging" content. Because it wouldnt really matter if you require yourself to CC, not use operator or ignore strips or a certain element, the mobs on SC will still die instantly from you simply utilizing all mod slots available, it is just as simple as that. And it is what you claim will be the approach i.e not going naked, but using other mods. What made SC engaging when playing through it was the lack of mods i.e being naked or half naked with bare bones weapons. Which is why Jackal was a pita but Kela faceroll.

I'm also not sure where you get it from that anyone implied we shouldnt stop at "enough" power. Was my balanced builds comment not a clear indication of that? What I'm saying is that old balanced builds work just as effectively on SP as they did elsewhere, you dont need some overly BiS build to do it comfortably for long hours. And on the SC there is no point downgrading to a more basic mod setup, since you'll end up killing things at the same speed anyways, you simply go from 1/4-shots to ½-shot or 1-shots pretty much since their levels are just that low. Now if we start to actually strip our loadouts of mods, then that surely ends up with a different outcome, but you've already been specific that you do not mean just removing things and leaving slots blank, you are talking about SC specific "builds". But you've still failed to provide a single example of one.

 

 

 

[uberfu]

On 2023-12-25 at 4:42 PM, Tombsite said:

When the Steel Path was launched DE it was an optional challenge. We got some better drop chances for resources/mods and some steel essence but that was supposed to be it. Outside of those things there was not supposed to be any reason to run the Steel Path version over the regular version. It was an optional mode for those who wanted a bit of a challenge. 

Then came the Zariman. Turns out that the mod booster from SP allowed you to farm the new arcanes that launched with the update twice as fast. But that was just a quirk of the mechanics, not a design decision right?
  
Then came the Voruna update. You could run the new missions as an old school farm but DE were nice to us and implemented a bit of a pity system. You needed to farm Lua Thrax Plasm for building Veruna but you could also use it in the store to offset bad luck. There were even two new missions to farm this on. A low and a high level version. Obviously the higher level version had a higher output of Lua Thrax Plasm (times 2 to be exact). Well the Steel Path was even harder so obviously it gave an even bigger output (20% bonus on the highest level). Wait so now there is a reason to run Steel Path? That is a deliberate design decision to make Steel Path better than regular path!

Then came the Citrine update. DE copied the, generally well received, system from the Voruna update. We collected crystals instead of plasma but the result was the same. But now there was a 50% bonus to the pity system for running Steel Path! This is getting kind of significant DE.

And with this latest event the SP-bonus is now at a +100%. With twice the amount of curses and and twice the amount of expected Grotesque splinters per run.

So we went from Steel Path being "an optional challenge” to “twice as efficient”.

I believe this is bad. But this is already in tl;dr territory so I’ll wait a bit with my arguments and instead ask my fellow players:

How do you feel about the Steel Path becoming the optimal way to play?      

Sooo you are complaining that DE made improved reasons to enter Steel Path as opposed some sort of mandatory reqruiement? You also forgot about the occasional Nightwave missions that require SP.

Wow - so glad you found something to complain about. For a minute there I thought folks had finally run out.

I bet if you order an ice cream cone and the counter person accidentally gives you 2 scoops instead of 1 and doesn't charge you for the 2nd sccop and gives you 50% off; you'd complain about that also.