Universal incarnon

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Hmmmm. I wanna future-proof myself for mandatory content like Steel Path, like you did before Steel Path came along.

Come to think of it, how do you decide you even have a balanced build? You said at one point in time that you’re using balanced builds, but that was for Steel Path, which isn’t balanced. It’s one thing to overbuild for content and it’s easy enough to do so long as you’re fine with narrowing your range of options the higher you need to offset yourself compared to the level you’re doing, it’s another to determine whether you’re actually built in a balanced way for the content you’re doing

edit: I’m not interested in being balanced myself, mind you, since that’s self-nerfing, but I’m still not quite sure how you determine when you’re built for Enough. It also kind of sounds like you then live in your builds, which is perfect because I hated having to think about how I’m going to change according to what I’m doing and how I wanted to play

You are talking about two different things here. I simply refered to balanced builds, as in not min-maxed or designed for something specific. Which was in relation to what you need to simply clear SP. Which in turn was an answer to you iirc saying we need min-max builds for SP. You are bringing up both what would be min-maxed and designed for the content build here though. I do still use balanced builds, I dont go overboard with any stats etc. But at the same time those builds are also min-maxed and designed to allow me to do that which I want when I want to do it. Not to be confused with what is needed to simply do SP to be able to farm the loot from the mode.

Maybe I should have used the word "basic" instead of "balanced" builds to refer to what is needed to clear and farm SP?

And to determine the point of "enough" comes down to the simple task of playing the content you planned on playing and see how it goes and improve on the build from there. Also it isnt self nerfing to stop at a certain point, since if you dont need more for what it is you set out to do there is no point adding more either. If you build for content below the highest "baseline", then yes you are nerfing yourself, but if you build for (and stop at) content above the highest "baseline" you arent nerfing yourself, since you are building for 100% optional content. As newer and higher baseline content gets introduced you will likely build further though. Or you might already have excess power in your build even though you never see any fruits of it in the content you play.

Right now I sit at 120-130KPM on avarage in SP survival, with the exception of the builds where I use Dual Ichor that sits at 180-200. And with my Garuda in Disruptions it is hard to see if I can improve something or replace something that I have too much of, since it is hard to notice if a demo dies in 2 seconds or 2.5 seconds. I guess one could say I nerf myself by not using Dual Ichor at all times, but I'll gladly nerf myself in that case from time to time.

[Merkranire]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are talking about two different things here. I simply refered to balanced builds, as in not min-maxed or designed for something specific. Which was in relation to what you need to simply clear SP. Which in turn was an answer to you iirc saying we need min-max builds for SP. You are bringing up both what would be min-maxed and designed for the content build here though. I do still use balanced builds, I dont go overboard with any stats etc. But at the same time those builds are also min-maxed and designed to allow me to do that which I want when I want to do it. Not to be confused with what is needed to simply do SP to be able to farm the loot from the mode.

Maybe I should have used the word "basic" instead of "balanced" builds to refer to what is needed to clear and farm SP?

And to determine the point of "enough" comes down to the simple task of playing the content you planned on playing and see how it goes and improve on the build from there. Also it isnt self nerfing to stop at a certain point, since if you dont need more for what it is you set out to do there is no point adding more either. If you build for content below the highest "baseline", then yes you are nerfing yourself, but if you build for (and stop at) content above the highest "baseline" you arent nerfing yourself, since you are building for 100% optional content. As newer and higher baseline content gets introduced you will likely build further though. Or you might already have excess power in your build even though you never see any fruits of it in the content you play.

Right now I sit at 120-130KPM on avarage in SP survival, with the exception of the builds where I use Dual Ichor that sits at 180-200. And with my Garuda in Disruptions it is hard to see if I can improve something or replace something that I have too much of, since it is hard to notice if a demo dies in 2 seconds or 2.5 seconds. I guess one could say I nerf myself by not using Dual Ichor at all times, but I'll gladly nerf myself in that case from time to time.

Sounds complicated and variable with a dose of subjectivity and no real consideration for balanced gameplay, but rather balanced… um… non-minmaxed-but-still-does-SP-builds-that-are-sometimes-minmaxed-but-not-in-a-META-way.

I guess what I’m taking from this is “Pick your maximum, build for that, anything lower is self-nerfing and is to be avoided”. Which aligns with my new goals and validates my decision to simplify everything from gameplay to building; I want to be ready for whatever highest-level content DE will throw at us, and variety is not a concern. So I’ll build like it’s coming, then sit in those builds until such time as I need to use them.

Very informative, Ervin. A little all over the place and at times felt inconsistent, but I think I get where you’re coming from and am looking forward to better gameplay enjoyment now that I know the rules of how the game is designed and what I should be striving for as a player

edit: I also understand now why people keep insisting that Steel Path is the place to be, and why the term “Viable” is simultaneously so warped and so universal, where even in the days when Steel Path was meant to be the place that not everything works, players were using it as the measuring stick for everything and then complaining that not everything worked and DE introduced solutions to the problem they invented at request of players who wanted a place to test their most OP builds and loadouts (solutions which, of course, were used to push OP builds even further until we need Platinum Path)

double edit: 🤔 Y’know, this may also explain a bunch of stuff that I thought was kind of stupid but was just me not understanding the way the game is designed, like why people think they need to sink so much and such specialised forma into their gear, why they have to rush so fast just to get any new gear up to par with their OP baseline, why they can’t just rebuild alternatively if they’re overbuilt and are bored to tears, why the game effectively becomes worse and less game-like the more we play. It’s a mindset thing

Edited January 14 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Sounds complicated and variable with a dose of subjectivity and no real consideration for balanced gameplay, but rather balanced… um… non-minmaxed-but-still-does-SP-builds-that-are-sometimes-minmaxed-but-not-in-a-META-way.

It's only complicated because you make it so. This was about what we had access to and used to use back when SP was released. Things that at the time were already used in other parts of the game. We have years of extra items now ontop of that, so the people that still claim SP is imbalanced have terrible misconceptions about the mode. The only thing that was imbalanced with SP was how drops worked, everything else was fine since it was very much doable with the items of the time. So when people think they need to min-max to do it, or create some very specific builds, they just dont know what it is actually like. Since we did it when it released with things that were far from what we can do with min-max now and even without it.

As I said, I practically use the same builds still but with more powerful options. All basic mods are for instance replaced with Umbra on the frames that would use the regular versions or something corrupted, I have access to galvanized items and arcanes for weapons, Acolytes actually granted me access to BR, WW and so on, something I didnt have when SP intially released. Same deal with shards, we didnt have those either, so they are clearly not required to do SP, so min-max isnt either.

19 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I guess what I’m taking from this is “Pick your maximum, build for that, anything lower is self-nerfing and is to be avoided”. Which aligns with my new goals and validates my decision to simplify everything from gameplay to building; I want to be ready for whatever highest-level content DE will throw at us, and variety is not a concern. So I’ll build like it’s coming, then sit in those builds until such time as I need to use them.

Well yes and no. Build for the maximum floor or you are effectively self nerfing. Picking your maximum and not building for it would be quite impossible since at that point you wouldnt have really picked your maximum right? And you wouldnt lose anything by changing your mind and not going for that maximum, since all loot is tied to the floor. I never build with what might come later in mind, since what comes later very likely also adds something that makes what I have pointless or incentivices me to go back to something older I'm not currently built for. Like galv and arcanes for ranged got introduced, which made me change from melee to ranged for the most part, and now with WitW I went back to melee again mainly.

19 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Very informative, Ervin. A little all over the place and at times felt inconsistent, but I think I get where you’re coming from and am looking forward to better gameplay enjoyment now that I know the rules of how the game is designed and what I should be striving for as a player

No inconsistancy, you are just not getting the point or context. This all came up due to discussions of an old mode that these days is far more accessible than it was, content that was already accessible without any real fuzz back then. Iirc this came up due to you saying the mode was imbalanced in the other thread and that it shouldnt get more rewards tied to it etc. when the OP suggested something like that. Since you thought SP required too specific builds and min-max far different from the SC.

19 hours ago, Merkranire said:

edit: I also understand now why people keep insisting that Steel Path is the place to be, and why the term “Viable” is simultaneously so warped and so universal, where even in the days when Steel Path was meant to be the place that not everything works, players were using it as the measuring stick for everything and then complaining that not everything worked and DE introduced solutions to the problem they invented at request of players who wanted a place to test their most OP builds and loadouts (solutions which, of course, were used to push OP builds even further until we need Platinum Path)

It was never intended to be a place where not everything works. It was intended to be a shortcut to max levels and a place to test builds instead of the sim. The only thing DE changes with the mode was how loot is distributed, since there wasnt even a handful of frames that could farm it efficiently. Also, something like Platinum Path was already intended when SP went live, since it was supposed to have 2 tiers at release. So not some new idea at all when people actually ask for it.

As to people thinking it is the place to be. Well, it is in the end just a copy of the SC with higher levels, so it's quite obvious it is the place to be when you can do it instead of the SC. It's not like in linear games when something new is added you never go back to the old, since SP is the old at the same time as it is the new. So if you feel like running around on Mars you get the same experience doing it on SP as you did running it on SC, it is just of a higher level. Or Earth vs Earth. It is close to impossible to get SC Earth to feel even remotely engaging, even if you are just geared enough to take on the next planet in line Earth will be utterly trivial, you need to more or less strip nekkid at that point. However Earth on SP allows you to use what you've obtained as you played and still not be a total pushover.

20 hours ago, Merkranire said:

double edit: 🤔 Y’know, this may also explain a bunch of stuff that I thought was kind of stupid but was just me not understanding the way the game is designed, like why people think they need to sink so much and such specialised forma into their gear, why they have to rush so fast just to get any new gear up to par with their OP baseline, why they can’t just rebuild alternatively if they’re overbuilt and are bored to tears, why the game effectively becomes worse and less game-like the more we play. It’s a mindset thing

That has always been a thing and is rooted in increasing levels of the content. The main issue is that our power has grown faster than the content we use it in. What we really should have is higher than SP levels of content. However since the game isnt linear that is hard to create while also allowing it to test our power. A big problem in that is because both enemy health and damage output increases while we practically only have increases in damage output. Our defenses are very limited, shields quickly get to a point where they are 1-shot and our potential to build for health and armor has a strict ceiling more or less. In other games as difficulties increase the potential for both damage and defense increase for the player, with options to go more fragile and durable while giving up or gaining damage in return. We just cant do that here in a proper way. Shards helped a bit by getting low armor frames to a better point where they dont need to rely on shields to survive higher content. You can for instance create a gun platform Banshee that can survive well through armor and health for quite long periods in SP.

DE would do be in an actual rework of the systems, but that likely wont happen since it would take 6 months to 1 year to pull off very likely, with little else being worked on.

 

 

[Merkranire]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's only complicated because you make it so. This was about what we had access to and used to use back when SP was released. Things that at the time were already used in other parts of the game. We have years of extra items now ontop of that, so the people that still claim SP is imbalanced have terrible misconceptions about the mode. The only thing that was imbalanced with SP was how drops worked, everything else was fine since it was very much doable with the items of the time. So when people think they need to min-max to do it, or create some very specific builds, they just dont know what it is actually like. Since we did it when it released with things that were far from what we can do with min-max now and even without it.

As I said, I practically use the same builds still but with more powerful options. All basic mods are for instance replaced with Umbra on the frames that would use the regular versions or something corrupted, I have access to galvanized items and arcanes for weapons, Acolytes actually granted me access to BR, WW and so on, something I didnt have when SP intially released. Same deal with shards, we didnt have those either, so they are clearly not required to do SP, so min-max isnt either.

Well yes and no. Build for the maximum floor or you are effectively self nerfing. Picking your maximum and not building for it would be quite impossible since at that point you wouldnt have really picked your maximum right? And you wouldnt lose anything by changing your mind and not going for that maximum, since all loot is tied to the floor. I never build with what might come later in mind, since what comes later very likely also adds something that makes what I have pointless or incentivices me to go back to something older I'm not currently built for. Like galv and arcanes for ranged got introduced, which made me change from melee to ranged for the most part, and now with WitW I went back to melee again mainly.

No inconsistancy, you are just not getting the point or context. This all came up due to discussions of an old mode that these days is far more accessible than it was, content that was already accessible without any real fuzz back then. Iirc this came up due to you saying the mode was imbalanced in the other thread and that it shouldnt get more rewards tied to it etc. when the OP suggested something like that. Since you thought SP required too specific builds and min-max far different from the SC.

It was never intended to be a place where not everything works. It was intended to be a shortcut to max levels and a place to test builds instead of the sim. The only thing DE changes with the mode was how loot is distributed, since there wasnt even a handful of frames that could farm it efficiently. Also, something like Platinum Path was already intended when SP went live, since it was supposed to have 2 tiers at release. So not some new idea at all when people actually ask for it.

As to people thinking it is the place to be. Well, it is in the end just a copy of the SC with higher levels, so it's quite obvious it is the place to be when you can do it instead of the SC. It's not like in linear games when something new is added you never go back to the old, since SP is the old at the same time as it is the new. So if you feel like running around on Mars you get the same experience doing it on SP as you did running it on SC, it is just of a higher level. Or Earth vs Earth. It is close to impossible to get SC Earth to feel even remotely engaging, even if you are just geared enough to take on the next planet in line Earth will be utterly trivial, you need to more or less strip nekkid at that point. However Earth on SP allows you to use what you've obtained as you played and still not be a total pushover.

That has always been a thing and is rooted in increasing levels of the content. The main issue is that our power has grown faster than the content we use it in. What we really should have is higher than SP levels of content. However since the game isnt linear that is hard to create while also allowing it to test our power. A big problem in that is because both enemy health and damage output increases while we practically only have increases in damage output. Our defenses are very limited, shields quickly get to a point where they are 1-shot and our potential to build for health and armor has a strict ceiling more or less. In other games as difficulties increase the potential for both damage and defense increase for the player, with options to go more fragile and durable while giving up or gaining damage in return. We just cant do that here in a proper way. Shards helped a bit by getting low armor frames to a better point where they dont need to rely on shields to survive higher content. You can for instance create a gun platform Banshee that can survive well through armor and health for quite long periods in SP.

DE would do be in an actual rework of the systems, but that likely wont happen since it would take 6 months to 1 year to pull off very likely, with little else being worked on.

 

 

Wow.

And this is how everyone treats the game, is it? I don’t want to be considered an outcast or anything

edit: Been doing this approach for a bit now, nothing new since it’s a return to a mentality I had when I was a fresh-faced newbie, and I’m kind of thinking something feels a little off. I’m just doing things I was already doing, but more limited since now I can’t use a lot of builds and combinations I was using nor am I experiencing balanced gameplay as well as unbalanced since it’s all unbalanced now that SP is my new baseline. What… am I supposed to get out of this approach again? It’s something good, right?

Edited January 15 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Wow.

And this is how everyone treats the game, is it? I don’t want to be considered an outcast or anything

edit: Been doing this approach for a bit now, nothing new since it’s a return to a mentality I had when I was a fresh-faced newbie, and I’m kind of thinking something feels a little off. I’m just doing things I was already doing, but more limited since now I can’t use a lot of builds and combinations I was using nor am I experiencing balanced gameplay as well as unbalanced since it’s all unbalanced now that SP is my new baseline. What… am I supposed to get out of this approach again? It’s something good, right?

Not sure which part you refer to regarding "how everyone treats the game". You mean wanting to run the highest content? That tends to be how people treat games in general when there are increasing levels throughout the game.

And you keep saying SP is unbalanced. What part of SP is unblanaced? And what builds and combination can you not use in SP? And how is it different from the SC itself with massively fluctuatiing levels between Earth and the last few planets? Or how is it different from SC compared to Arbis, SC compared to Liches, T1 Void compared to T3 void etc. SP is just a higher level of SC that also doesnt pin you into single planets for a certain difficulty, at most the levels fluctuate very little, so you can go to Earth or Mot and enjoy yourself since neither is a complete pushover compared to the other.

[Anti-Incarnon]

I’ve yet to find a weapon I couldn’t make viable in SP. And I’ve tried and fully modded most of the bad weapons in my quest to make the game interesting for myself and not run the same things as everyone else. If I like a «bad» weapon enough, I make sure to get a riven for it. For non-meta weapons that’s like 50 platinum.

For some of us, it’s important that the option to make weapons overpowered isn’t there for all the weapons. I’m not gonna intentionally hamper a specific weapon to fit my style, but I do appreciate there being limitations I cannot influence. Let some things be. Not everything has to be an incarnon-snoozefest.

[SDGDen]

3 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

I’ve yet to find a weapon I couldn’t make viable in SP. And I’ve tried and fully modded most of the bad weapons in my quest to make the game interesting for myself and not run the same things as everyone else. If I like a «bad» weapon enough, I make sure to get a riven for it. For non-meta weapons that’s like 50 platinum.

For some of us, it’s important that the option to make weapons overpowered isn’t there for all the weapons. I’m not gonna intentionally hamper a specific weapon to fit my style, but I do appreciate there being limitations I cannot influence. Let some things be. Not everything has to be an incarnon-snoozefest.

someone didnt want their main account to be known lmao.

 

[Anti-Incarnon]

3 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

someone didnt want their main account to be known lmao.

 

Why would that be the case. Actually just made one since it was a necessary step when merging accounts for cross-platform saving og trading.

[Merkranire]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not sure which part you refer to regarding "how everyone treats the game". You mean wanting to run the highest content? That tends to be how people treat games in general when there are increasing levels throughout the game.

Mostly it was a “Wow” at kind of everything you said, but partly I was referring to treating highest-level content as the only thing worth doing instead of like a sometimes thing while they jump around a variety of levels that both enable different builds and different gameplay according to how we’re built and what we’re building for

Even before DE made Steel Path more tempting a place to be (before SP was a thing, even) players were building like they were going to live beyond highest-level content, which had the knock-on effect of meaning they eschewed any other ways to build that the game was designed around enabling and rewarding, which itself has knockon effects for the perceived value of most of the stuff we earn while warping a player’s sense of balanced gameplay and understanding of game mechanics and design.

I wanna be a part of that culture, and I think I’m nailing it at the moment, though if you’ve got tips I’m listening; so far I’m making one build to live in per piece of gear and it has to be the best build with the most Forma and no garbage mods/Arcanes, though the game seems limitedly designed around the idea

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And you keep saying SP is unbalanced. What part of SP is unblanaced? And what builds and combination can you not use in SP? And how is it different from the SC itself with massively fluctuatiing levels between Earth and the last few planets? Or how is it different from SC compared to Arbis, SC compared to Liches, T1 Void compared to T3 void etc. SP is just a higher level of SC that also doesnt pin you into single planets for a certain difficulty, at most the levels fluctuate very little, so you can go to Earth or Mot and enjoy yourself since neither is a complete pushover compared to the other.

Sorry, I lost all the answers to those questions when I decided to be a part of something bigger than myself.

One of us is going to have to find the answers again, but it ain’t gonna be me since I’m using my DE-given power to do…. something worthwhile, I think. And I think I’ve made it clear that self-nerfing is off the table.

The key thing being that I was already doing high-level content as an every-so-often thing and then often (though not always) using the components in other builds in different ways across different content to experience different gameplay while watching my Forma investment and not feeling pressured into obtaining redundant amounts of power since they’d come eventually and I didn’t use to always need it. Honestly I felt like I was using everything I earned in a fairly even manner, because I’m jumping around all sorts of levels in a fairly even rate and not really feeling like I’m stuck somewhere, though I could also stick with favourite bits of gear for a while if I wanted it’d just be the builds on them that change since level 30 typically looks different to level 60 typically looks different to level 100 typically looks different to level 100 Steel Path (though with things like gearwheel items and bonuses from modes like Arbitrations in the mix sometimes some builds can go higher; it was an imprecise science but quite varied). But now I’m living in one build and it’s the best build and I’m always built for highest-level content and I always need more power and the game’s kind of getting samey and repetitive and I’m feeling some pretty severe FOMO and am always worried about opportunity cost and efficient grind, but I’m at least playing the game properly now

Edited January 17 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Mostly it was a “Wow” at kind of everything you said, but partly I was referring to treating highest-level content as the only thing worth doing instead of like a sometimes thing while they jump around a variety of levels that both enable different builds and different gameplay according to how we’re built and what we’re building for

Even before DE made Steel Path more tempting a place to be (before SP was a thing, even) players were building like they were going to live beyond highest-level content, which had the knock-on effect of meaning they eschewed any other ways to build that the game was designed around enabling and rewarding, which itself has knockon effects for the perceived value of most of the stuff we earn while warping a player’s sense of balanced gameplay and understanding of game mechanics and design.

I wanna be a part of that culture, and I think I’m nailing it at the moment, though if you’ve got tips I’m listening; so far I’m making one build to live in per piece of gear and it has to be the best build with the most Forma and no garbage mods/Arcanes, though the game seems limitedly designed around the idea

That will just be how it is in these games, and how it has always been. Even games with level sync or capped power levels in lower content are played this way.

Well the idea of achieving the highest efficiency tends to be what people look for mostly in these types of game, improving loot per minute and so on. That doesnt mean going beyond the highest content in power is worth it or healthy (for the player), or that the build they use is the only that can achieve that optimal efficiency of loot per minute, boss TTK or whatever it is they try to achieve. Like I mentioned with people following old "level cap" guides while never setting foot in level cap content, or even close to it. So those build were instead gimping them in the content they did, since in the lower content they stuck with, health, armor, lower strength and so on was better. Since they could take more punishment and the mobs would die just as quickly anyways. My friend made that mistake, he used some level cap builds and then sat there wondering why he couldnt do lower content with it when it was built to do much harder parts of the game.

And dont forget that there are more to a build than what you imply. Which makes the part where you say "they eschewed any other way to build". They likely didnt, just as I dont even if I try to make the most efficient builds. Since no matter what mods I slot, certain builds will end up better than another depending on the variables of the content, which is the idea of WF, the right tool for the job. The mods themselves really only impact the level you can comfortably do by providing more damage and TTL. Most of a build is rooted in the frame and its abilities. Right now my Khora, Atlas, Hydroid, Lavos, Frost, Saryn, Revenant, Dagath, Kullervo, Protea, Hildryn and Rhino have very different mod setups, they also use a couple of different weapons, those weapons, when shared between loadouts also come with different modding based on the frame they are intended for. So there is a wide variety of builds. Not only that, they also have different shard setups along with arcanes. The one thing they share near identically is the companion, but even it is slightly different in the mod setup depending on which frame uses it. And if I'm to do Circuit SP (or bonus portals) they'll use a different mod and skill setup for the most part.

So just because someone aims for high content it doesnt mean they are pinned into a small amount of builds. Those mentioned result in 12-24 builds depending on the content I'm doing.

18 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Sorry, I lost all the answers to those questions when I decided to be a part of something bigger than myself.

One of us is going to have to find the answers again, but it ain’t gonna be me since I’m using my DE-given power to do…. something worthwhile, I think. And I think I’ve made it clear that self-nerfing is off the table.

The key thing being that I was already doing high-level content as an every-so-often thing and then often (though not always) using the components in other builds in different ways across different content to experience different gameplay while watching my Forma investment and not feeling pressured into obtaining redundant amounts of power since they’d come eventually and I didn’t use to always need it. Honestly I felt like I was using everything I earned in a fairly even manner, because I’m jumping around all sorts of levels in a fairly even rate and not really feeling like I’m stuck somewhere, though I could also stick with favourite bits of gear for a while if I wanted it’d just be the builds on them that change since level 30 typically looks different to level 60 typically looks different to level 100 typically looks different to level 100 Steel Path (though with things like gearwheel items and bonuses from modes like Arbitrations in the mix sometimes some builds can go higher; it was an imprecise science but quite varied). But now I’m living in one build and it’s the best build and I’m always built for highest-level content and I always need more power and the game’s kind of getting samey and repetitive and I’m feeling some pretty severe FOMO and am always worried about opportunity cost and efficient grind, but I’m at least playing the game properly now

They must still be there since you brought up unbalance so recently. Hard for me to find that unbalance when I'm not the one claiming it exsists.

As to the last segment. That is on you not allowing yourself to have fun. I've never said that people must play SP, I'm saying it is natural to add rewards to higher and higher content overtime, which DE have done since the beginning and required the same progression upgrades to do the content in comparison to the old. That doesnt mean you cant build weaker to allow yourself to have your subjective fun when you want to. Which is why I asked you why you think SP is any different from any other higher level content released previously. Since in the end it is just higher content and nothing else.

Were you just as upset over people wanting more added to arbitrations, that people ask for more lich rewards, when people ask for infested liches and so on? Because it is just as the people saying SP is the place to be and they want more rewards for it, the people that asked for more arbi rewards wanted it to be the place to be since it was the highest and most engaging at the time.

[Merkranire]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That will just be how it is in these games, and how it has always been. Even games with level sync or capped power levels in lower content are played this way.

Well the idea of achieving the highest efficiency tends to be what people look for mostly in these types of game, improving loot per minute and so on. That doesnt mean going beyond the highest content in power is worth it or healthy (for the player), or that the build they use is the only that can achieve that optimal efficiency of loot per minute, boss TTK or whatever it is they try to achieve. Like I mentioned with people following old "level cap" guides while never setting foot in level cap content, or even close to it. So those build were instead gimping them in the content they did, since in the lower content they stuck with, health, armor, lower strength and so on was better. Since they could take more punishment and the mobs would die just as quickly anyways. My friend made that mistake, he used some level cap builds and then sat there wondering why he couldnt do lower content with it when it was built to do much harder parts of the game.

And dont forget that there are more to a build than what you imply. Which makes the part where you say "they eschewed any other way to build". They likely didnt, just as I dont even if I try to make the most efficient builds. Since no matter what mods I slot, certain builds will end up better than another depending on the variables of the content, which is the idea of WF, the right tool for the job. The mods themselves really only impact the level you can comfortably do by providing more damage and TTL. Most of a build is rooted in the frame and its abilities. Right now my Khora, Atlas, Hydroid, Lavos, Frost, Saryn, Revenant, Dagath, Kullervo, Protea, Hildryn and Rhino have very different mod setups, they also use a couple of different weapons, those weapons, when shared between loadouts also come with different modding based on the frame they are intended for. So there is a wide variety of builds. Not only that, they also have different shard setups along with arcanes. The one thing they share near identically is the companion, but even it is slightly different in the mod setup depending on which frame uses it. And if I'm to do Circuit SP (or bonus portals) they'll use a different mod and skill setup for the most part.

So just because someone aims for high content it doesnt mean they are pinned into a small amount of builds. Those mentioned result in 12-24 builds depending on the content I'm doing.

They must still be there since you brought up unbalance so recently. Hard for me to find that unbalance when I'm not the one claiming it exsists.

As to the last segment. That is on you not allowing yourself to have fun. I've never said that people must play SP, I'm saying it is natural to add rewards to higher and higher content overtime, which DE have done since the beginning and required the same progression upgrades to do the content in comparison to the old. That doesnt mean you cant build weaker to allow yourself to have your subjective fun when you want to. Which is why I asked you why you think SP is any different from any other higher level content released previously. Since in the end it is just higher content and nothing else.

Were you just as upset over people wanting more added to arbitrations, that people ask for more lich rewards, when people ask for infested liches and so on? Because it is just as the people saying SP is the place to be and they want more rewards for it, the people that asked for more arbi rewards wanted it to be the place to be since it was the highest and most engaging at the time.

I had engaging and rewarding gameplay before listening to you, Ervin. And it was across the whole game, not just SP and including Arbitrations, and it made sense that when DE add new content like bounties, they introduce it at various levels for the various builds I could create and use involving every piece of kit and mods and whatever I’ve earned (resulting in way more than 12-24) and SP was tacked on at the end for my most powerful builds (which your 12-24 would probably have been part of), but the standard game came first and made sense and is balanced.

Now I’m feeling cheated of both the fun and the reward, frustrated that my chase for power is so tedious and repetitive, burning out on opportunity cost concerns and efficiency chasing, not using the things I’ve earned in the way I’d like to in the combinations I want because the place I’m forced into taking them to is so unbalanced, stuck in Steel Path because it’s the place to go, and I’m seriously finding that the game design isn’t making sense. I feel more limited than ever in both what I’m using and what I can expect in terms of gameplay, and the rulebook I knew and used to guide my building for over 2k hours has been thrown out the window, and why is a game getting more limited the more I play??

Are you taking the design of other linear games, with their linear stat-increases and level increases and matching of levels between enemy and player, and trying to apply it to non-linear Warframe where we don’t have player levels and it’s our build on the modless gear and combinations of our entire kit that determine where we go and what we can do and enemy levels are a guide for what we should expect and how we should expect to build in a game where the way we combine kit and content is mercurial and varied? Have I made a mistake in trying to be a part of the community that knows how the game works and the best way to play it? I feel like I’ve made a mistake

Edited January 17 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

You’ve doomed me, @SneakyErvin. Dooooooomed me. I’m forever cursed to live in Steel Path because it’s the logical place to both live and ask for more content for, and since all of our gear will never be able to do Steel Path from its modless baseline, I’ll never get to wield my sentimental weapons in the way I want to build them, I need to make sure they’ve got enough damage first which may or may not take every available slot but the important thing is that there’s always an initial cost and a reduction in spare capacity and slots, and the gameplay will be samey and repetitive.

Alas, I think my fate is sealed, for there’s no way to return to the glorious game I once knew, not after I’ve had such a shift in priorities and goals that may or may not lead to my optimising until the game is gone (though it seems that it’s definitely a “May”, since it only makes sense), and I most likely won’t even consider using the suggested Incarnon option if it doesn’t help with the grind as effectively as something else

Edited January 17 by Merkranire

[Packetdancer]

On 2024-01-16 at 12:01 PM, Anti-Incarnon said:

Why would that be the case. Actually just made one since it was a necessary step when merging accounts for cross-platform saving og trading.

It's unfortunate that as soon as you do the cross-save merge, the PC account -- which may be newly created -- becomes the forum account (since your PSN or XBL login will now log you in as the new "canon" account). I mean, I understand it, but cutting you off from your previous post history and identity is not a great side-effect... :|

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

I’ll never get to wield my sentimental weapons in the way I want to build them, I need to make sure they’ve got enough damage first which may or may not take every available slot but the important thing is that there’s always an initial cost and a reduction in spare capacity and slots, and the gameplay will be samey and repetitive.

You do you, but I mean... I find toying with a variety of different things to see how to make them work well is fun. And I take joy in getting my old favorites (like my beloved Dakra Prime) kitted out such that they can remain at my side in basically any content.

 

 

[Merkranire]

27 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

You do you, but I mean... I find toying with a variety of different things to see how to make them work well is fun. And I take joy in getting my old favorites (like my beloved Dakra Prime) kitted out such that they can remain at my side in basically any content.

Sure. I could do that too, and I had every other way to build that I could think of, and it wasn’t all cookie-clicker gameplay (unless I wanted it to be by building and choosing content accordingly).

Now I’m either stuck in Steel Path for any sort of gameplay (unbalanced as it is) or overbuilt for the content I’m doing outside of SP, and am limited in the ways I can customise my gear to keep it that way. I’m stuck using the builds I optimised and instead of them being neat little “I feel like using this build today”, they’re my life.

Did you know I’d given up on Loadout slots because I was changing builds so much that keeping on top of them became a nightmare? I didn’t even bother saving my most optimal builds because I just rebuild them because I know how and why I built them in the first place.

Now I’ve got a few loadouts, and they’ve got some minor changes to sort-of-but-not-really change the gameplay, the important thing is that anything the game throws at me is addressed. And again that wouldn’t be a problem if I didn’t feel forced into using them and ultimately came to resent them but I gotta keep using them to not lag behind

Edited January 18 by Merkranire
Loadouts, not configs

[Packetdancer]

4 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Did you know I’d given up on Loadout slots because I was changing builds so much that keeping on top of them became a nightmare? I didn’t even bother saving my most optimal builds because I just rebuild them because I know how and why I built them in the first place.

I mean, I do that too? I have a number of loadouts for builds I often use -- my "help the newbies" Citrine build, my "extreme Kullervo cheese" build, etc. -- and then I have two slots labeled "MISC 1" and "MISC 2" where I just shuffle in whatever random loadout I want to play or experiment with at the moment. They get a decent amount of use.

 

6 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

 And again that wouldn’t be a problem if I didn’t feel forced into using them and ultimately came to resent them but I gotta keep using them to not lag behind

Okay, this? I think this is the heart of your problem and unhappiness. You say you're "forced" to do this to "not lag behind." Not lag behind what? Other people? Needing to have the highest kill count on the end-of-mission summary? The highest % damage dealt? (Which I think is a broken and terrible stat and should be taken off the summary, but that's a rant for another day.)

The thing is, you don't actually need any of those things to play the game. If the way you're playing is actively harming your fun, stop. There's lots of ways to enjoy the game.

I don't build for Steel Path because I want to get ahead of others; I build for Steel Path because, for me, the fun is actually doing the builds. Something doesn't have to top the damage charts to be enjoyable, just hold its own reasonably well. In other words: I love to throw new ideas into the blender and see what survives, and Steel Path is the quality assurance on my wacky build ideas. (I mean, it helps that my two best in-game friends share this mindset; I'm not gonna run pub SP with random folks without a build I've at least done some testing on.)

If your fun is in changing up frames and playing a variety of stuff (which I understand), and you find that SP forces you into an unchanging meta (which I also understand, even if I think that's subjective), and that ruins your fun...  just play other stuff. Stuff you find fun.

The fact that I get more stuff on Steel Path is a nice perk, yeah, but it's not actually my primary purpose there; I play there because throwing things at the metaphorical wall -- or, I guess, in the new tilesets, the literal Wall -- to see what sticks is my fun.

(I mean, I like the gameplay too, obviously.)

[Merkranire]

16 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

I mean, I do that too? I have a number of loadouts for builds I often use -- my "help the newbies" Citrine build, my "extreme Kullervo cheese" build, etc. -- and then I have two slots labeled "MISC 1" and "MISC 2" where I just shuffle in whatever random loadout I want to play or experiment with at the moment. They get a decent amount of use.

 

Okay, this? I think this is the heart of your problem and unhappiness. You say you're "forced" to do this to "not lag behind." Not lag behind what? Other people? Needing to have the highest kill count on the end-of-mission summary? The highest % damage dealt? (Which I think is a broken and terrible stat and should be taken off the summary, but that's a rant for another day.)

The thing is, you don't actually need any of those things to play the game. If the way you're playing is actively harming your fun, stop. There's lots of ways to enjoy the game.

I don't build for Steel Path because I want to get ahead of others; I build for Steel Path because, for me, the fun is actually doing the builds. Something doesn't have to top the damage charts to be enjoyable, just hold its own reasonably well. In other words: I love to throw new ideas into the blender and see what survives, and Steel Path is the quality assurance on my wacky build ideas. (I mean, it helps that my two best in-game friends share this mindset; I'm not gonna run pub SP with random folks without a build I've at least done some testing on.)

If your fun is in changing up frames and playing a variety of stuff (which I understand), and you find that SP forces you into an unchanging meta (which I also understand, even if I think that's subjective), and that ruins your fun...  just play other stuff. Stuff you find fun.

The fact that I get more stuff on Steel Path is a nice perk, yeah, but it's not actually my primary purpose there; I play there because throwing things at the metaphorical wall -- or, I guess, in the new tilesets, the literal Wall -- to see what sticks is my fun.

(I mean, I like the gameplay too, obviously.)

I’m not going to use garbage builds, Packet. As I played, I accrued more ways to increase my power in a linear fashion, and as per linear fashion I’m expected to abandon garbage starter builds and gear that made level 40 Mot a fight and instead build for Steel Path and the highest level of content I can do, narrowing my pool of mods to draw from and gear to use and ways to build due to the “Power comes with a literal cost” design.

I had kits that were pure Exilus and were fun to use in sub-level 20 content that was designed to be easy, and I used them there because of how they worked if I threw a Bleeding and Decaying Dragon Key on, and I know that the result of all that building with intent can’t handle level 40, nevermind Steel Path, but it was fine because I still have/had reason to do level 20ish content and I only used those builds enough to have fun and then move elsewhere or rebuild or whatever. Now I’m barely even looking at Exilus, have dissolved most of my mods that don’t contribute to my grind, and am focusing on damage and numbers, and my focus is making the whole game a cakewalk, even Steel Path, the so-called “Hard mode”. And this is how the game wants me to play, and because the community tells me as much, and because I trust that the community doesn’t have a problem with optimising the game away, I believe them, even if I’m kind of questioning it now

Whether that means absolutely Meta or not, the goal is aligned with what the Meta approach is doing; I just use Meta because it’s a simple and understandable term that most players respect the design of, as opposed to garbage-ass-useless-builds-that-was-built-with-intent-and-can-be-fun-to-use-but-doesn’t-make-it-past-40 (and anything like it that doesn’t cut it in SP)

[Packetdancer]

3 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I’m not going to use garbage builds, Packet. As I played, I accrued more ways to increase my power in a linear fashion, and as per linear fashion I’m expected to abandon garbage starter builds and gear that made level 40 Mot a fight and instead build for Steel Path and the highest level of content I can do, narrowing my pool of mods to draw from and gear to use and ways to build due to the “Power comes with a literal cost” design.

See, I think this is where we differ. I get the sense from your posts that for you, "garbage builds" are builds that don't top the damage charts in SP with just a push of a button.

For me, I'm willing to play a variety of things; I'll happily use Kullervo (with a build almost entirely centered around melee) or Yareli (with a build centered around staying on Merulina, thus functionally incapable of melee). They play very differently, trust me, but both are perfectly fine in Steel Path when built right. I've got a wonky shield-based Rhino build that works far better than it has any right to, several different Protea builds I'll happily swap around, two different builds for Wisp... the list goes on (and on, and on), but it is frankly hard enough to type with my hand in a cast and I don't have all night.

All of those builds hold their own in Steel Path -- a few absolutely wreck everything -- and many of those builds play very differently from each other. Is every single one of them going to top the damage % charts at mission end? Maybe not. though several sure will. (Extreme Cheese Mode Kullervo says hi.) But all of them will survive to mission end just fine, as well as rack up a respectable kill count to show "hey, I'm actually playing," plus -- and I feel this is the important point here -- I'll have fun.

This is why I say your experience with Steel Path being "restrictive" to builds and "forcing" you to play to a specific meta, thus killing all variety... it just doesn't match my own. From my point of view, the only thing forcing you into restrictive builds is you yourself.

You say that you're not going to play "garbage builds" and seemingly define "garbage builds" as anything that is not the absolute highest-damage meta of the moment. And fine -- like I said, you do you; I have no right to tell someone else where to find their fun, even if I'll happily point out "hey, there's fun over here if you want some." If you choose to define your fun in the game as only doing the biggest damage numbers of everyone in the party, that's totally fine. But if you do make that choice, recognize it's your choice, and not something inherent to Steel Path.

Beyond that, my hand hurts, and I think it's fairly clear that nothing I say will sway you; I shall bow out of the conversation here, at least for now.

[Merkranire]

Just now, Packetdancer said:

See, I think this is where we differ. I get the sense from your posts that for you, "garbage builds" are builds that don't top the damage charts in SP with just a push of a button.

For me, I'm willing to play a variety of things; I'll happily use Kullervo (with a build almost entirely centered around melee) or Yareli (with a build centered around staying on Merulina, thus functionally incapable of melee). They play very differently, trust me, but both are perfectly fine in Steel Path when built right. I've got a wonky shield-based Rhino build that works far better than it has any right to, several different Protea builds I'll happily swap around, two different builds for Wisp... the list goes on (and on, and on), but it is frankly hard enough to type with my hand in a cast and I don't have all night.

All of those builds hold their own in Steel Path -- a few absolutely wreck everything -- and many of those builds play very differently from each other. Is every single one of them going to top the damage % charts at mission end? Maybe not. though several sure will. (Extreme Cheese Mode Kullervo says hi.) But all of them will survive to mission end just fine, as well as rack up a respectable kill count to show "hey, I'm actually playing," plus -- and I feel this is the important point here -- I'll have fun.

This is why I say your experience with Steel Path being "restrictive" to builds and "forcing" you to play to a specific meta, thus killing all variety... it just doesn't match my own. From my point of view, the only thing forcing you into restrictive builds is you yourself.

You say that you're not going to play "garbage builds" and seemingly define "garbage builds" as anything that is not the absolute highest-damage meta of the moment. And fine -- like I said, you do you; I have no right to tell someone else where to find their fun, even if I'll happily point out "hey, there's fun over here if you want some." If you choose to define your fun in the game as only doing the biggest damage numbers of everyone in the party, that's totally fine. But if you do make that choice, recognize it's your choice, and not something inherent to Steel Path.

Beyond that, my hand hurts, and I think it's fairly clear that nothing I say will sway you; I shall bow out of the conversation here, at least for now.

Here’s an Argonak; make me a build for it. Pick whatever mods you want

[Packetdancer]

15 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Here’s an Argonak; make me a build for it. Pick whatever mods you want

I likely wouldn't build it as a weapon to use entirely in isolation; I'd build it to synergize with another weapon or a Warframe's abilities. Off the top of my head, the Amalgam mod for the Argonak causes dagger attacks to armor-strip, and the Ceramic Dagger has an Incarnon evolution perk where primary weapon kills stack to increase your initial combo counter. There's one hell of a synergy right there, and that's probably what I'd start building from as a first go at it.

I'd be happy to play around with that concept more if my hand were not (as mentioned) broken and in a cast. I can sure theorycraft, but forma-resetting something and re-leveling it to test an idea -- or, really, playing the game at all -- is presently beyond my capabilities. I am stuck doing fashion frame and playing a lot of the iPad port of XCOM 2 (which can be played one-handed) for the next few weeks. If you're willing to wait until mid-February when I get this stupid cast off my hand, though, I will happily concoct and properly test some dumb-but-viable Argonak setup.

(Honestly, that sounds like a rather fun idea to toy with, so thanks for getting me thinking on that.)

[Merkranire]

4 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

I likely wouldn't build it as a weapon to use entirely in isolation; I'd build it to synergize with another weapon or a Warframe's abilities. Off the top of my head, the Amalgam mod for the Argonak causes dagger attacks to armor-strip, and the Ceramic Dagger has an Incarnon evolution perk where primary weapon kills stack to increase your initial combo counter. There's one hell of a synergy right there, and that's probably what I'd start building from as a first go at it.

I'd be happy to play around with that concept more if my hand were not (as mentioned) broken and in a cast. I can sure theorycraft, but forma-resetting something and re-leveling it to test an idea -- or, really, playing the game at all -- is presently beyond my capabilities. I am stuck doing fashion frame and playing a lot of the iPad port of XCOM 2 (which can be played one-handed) for the next few weeks. If you're willing to wait until mid-February when I get this stupid cast off my hand, though, I will happily concoct and properly test some dumb-but-viable Argonak setup.

(Honestly, that sounds like a rather fun idea to toy with, so thanks for getting me thinking on that.)

Whoah whoah, let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

If I’ve got to have a specific frame, secondary, school, or whatever on top of the gun, then we’ve got a problem.

Build the gun in isolation; the other bits can come later

[Packetdancer]

5 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

If I’ve got to have a specific frame, secondary, school, or whatever on top of the gun, then we’ve got a problem.

Why on earth are you goalpost-moving? It's perfectly reasonable to make builds that synergize. Hell, I'd argue it's the most effective way to play. Are you going to run Kullervo without equipping a melee weapon? Yareli certainly benefits from thinking about what secondary weapon you're bringing! One of my effective -- and fun -- loadouts relies on a synergy built between Rauta and Corufell.

I actually find those sort of builds more interesting because they encourage me to think about ways to build things that aren't just "big damage number yay" in isolation. I find thinking along those lines lets me be more creative, not less.

But, fine. If you prefer, the Argonak can certainly be built for damage in isolation. It's not where I think the best value would be -- more to the point, it's not what I think would be the more fun of the two builds, which is my own personal primary criteria in "would this be worth building" -- but, sure, whatever. We'll throw out the Ceramic Dagger aspect and the Amalgam mod, and probably pick up Primary Merciless for the arcane instead of Primary Dexterity.

Offhand it's got a decent crit chance on the semi-auto fire mode, and that's probably the road I'd go down, at least for a quick stab at pure damage. I'd probably want to experiment a little with status as well, but that's for another day.

Since a lot of the Argonak's unique factor is the target-highlighting you get while aiming down the scope, we can assume that aiming is going to be part of the gameplay here; as such, Galvanized Scope is an easy choice as a base to build from. Throwing together a very basic idea in Overframe (since, again: broken hand, unable to really forma and/or test the theory), it looks viable.

I'd probably start somewhere like here; this is playing fast-and-loose to do something quick, because I really am going to bow out now because -- as mentioned -- my hand is in a cast and it hurts and I kinda want to stop typing. I'm not sold on some aspects of this hasty build -- I have a nagging feeling that hand-pain has me fuzzy enough that I've overlooked something -- but I'd almost certainly go through 2 or 3 iterations of an idea anyway. So, hey, starting place.

(And obviously you'd swap the Primed Bane mod out for whatever faction you were dealing with.)

And now I really, truly, am bowing out because I want to take painkiller and not be at the keys.

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, Packetdancer said:

Why on earth are you goalpost-moving? It's perfectly reasonable to make builds that synergize. Hell, I'd argue it's the most effective way to play. Are you going to run Kullervo without equipping a melee weapon? Yareli certainly benefits from thinking about what secondary weapon you're bringing! One of my effective -- and fun -- loadouts relies on a synergy built between Rauta and Corufell.

I actually find those sort of builds more interesting because they encourage me to think about ways to build things that aren't just "big damage number yay" in isolation. I find thinking along those lines lets me be more creative, not less.

But, fine. If you prefer, the Argonak can certainly be built for damage in isolation. It's not where I think the best value would be -- more to the point, it's not what I think would be the more fun of the two builds, which is my own personal primary criteria in "would this be worth building" -- but, sure, whatever. We'll throw out the Ceramic Dagger aspect and the Amalgam mod, and probably pick up Primary Merciless for the arcane instead of Primary Dexterity.

Offhand it's got a decent crit chance on the semi-auto fire mode, and that's probably the road I'd go down, at least for a quick stab at pure damage. I'd probably want to experiment a little with status as well, but that's for another day.

Since a lot of the Argonak's unique factor is the target-highlighting you get while aiming down the scope, we can assume that aiming is going to be part of the gameplay here; as such, Galvanized Scope is an easy choice as a base to build from. Throwing together a very basic idea in Overframe (since, again: broken hand, unable to really forma and/or test the theory), it looks viable.

I'd probably start somewhere like here; this is playing fast-and-loose to do something quick, because I really am going to bow out now because -- as mentioned -- my hand is in a cast and it hurts and I kinda want to stop typing. I'm not sold on some aspects of this hasty build -- I have a nagging feeling that hand-pain has me fuzzy enough that I've overlooked something -- but I'd almost certainly go through 2 or 3 iterations of an idea anyway. So, hey, starting place.

(And obviously you'd swap the Primed Bane mod out for whatever faction you were dealing with.)

And now I really, truly, am bowing out because I want to take painkiller and not be at the keys.

Oh I’m sorry, when I said “Any build” I of course meant “Whatever works in Steel Path”, as the whole point I’m trying to make is that every build works in Steel Path. Synergy is fine, but I want the gun first and the other bits can come afterwards; maybe I want to use a hammer instead of daggers, maybe I want to use Mesa. There’s more to synergy than one set of gear and there’s more ways to utilise synergy than what sits in Steel Path

Hmm, so I’m going to have a look at this and start shooting some SP Grineer with it to see what it does on its own merits. Oh, and I didn’t mention the Arcane, but I wanted the one that generates energy on impact

edit: Is it just me, or is that every single modslot polarised? Oof, I actually had 6 slots polarised at one point and removed one because I was running into build problems. Good thing I got a spare from the account merge, otherwise I’d be getting pretty annoyed at how many times I’d have to reforma

Edited January 18 by Merkranire

[Packetdancer]

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Oh I’m sorry, when I said “Any build” I of course meant “Whatever works in Steel Path”, as the whole point I’m trying to make is that every build works in Steel Path. Synergy is fine, but I want the gun first and the other bits can come afterwards; maybe I want to use a hammer instead of daggers, maybe I want to use Mesa. There’s more to synergy than one set of gear and there’s more ways to utilise synergy than what sits in Steel Path

If you're saying every weapon needs to be able to be built such that it works with every other possible frame and weapon, you're being at best disingenuous. 

I in no way ever said that every single piece of gear in the game is viable in upper levels of Steel Path entirely in isolation, much less that every single piece of gear can be used for every single possible role.

Some weapons are best suited as a primer, inflicting status effects to be exploited by Condition Overload or Gundition Ov— I mean the Galvanized status mods. Some weapons are best used as exploiters of those status effects. Sometimes you can do weird things like take advantage of the fact that exalted weapons count as abilities but can be modded for elemental damage.

You said that Steel Path forces you to play in one singular way with zero variation. I said I've not found that to be true, there are plenty of different ways to play it. "Many different ways" does not mean every piece of gear works in every role entirely in isolation. You're trying to swing between two absolutes—"I can just only one loadout" or "every piece of gear must be able to do everything entirely without relying on any other piece of gear"—when we're looking at an entire spectrum.

At best, you're seeing things far too black and white. At worst, you're deliberately arguing in bad faith at this point. I would prefer to believe the former, but the truth is that it doesn't really matter in the end which it is.

I did my best to illustrate there are a multitude of ways to build for and play on the Steel Path, and to convince you that you can still have variety there. I was even willing to try to demonstrate in good faith some of the ways you could do so, to help you along that path. That coming up with interesting interactions not only lets you use stuff in unexpected ways, but gets you thinking more creatively about what you take into content.

But at this point it's like the old adage of "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink," and I am not going to expend more energy to attempt to prove that adage wrong. 

If you genuinely want to have more variety in the Steel Path, you can do it. Thinking creatively can be fun! If you are determined to be miserable... that's your call, but if you're not having fun I would recommend you think on if this is a game you actually want to play. And that's my final piece of advice for you.

The metaphorical water is over there; whether or not you drink it is up to you. Either way, I'm done.

3 hours ago, Merkranire said:

edit: Is it just me, or is that every single modslot polarised? Oof, I actually had 6 slots polarised at one point and removed one because I was running into build problems. Good thing I got a spare from the account merge, otherwise I’d be getting pretty annoyed at how many times I’d have to reforma

You said, and I quote, "Here’s an Argonak; make me a build for it. Pick whatever mods you want."

After you started adding conditions, I said it would be possible to build for pure damage without building atop any synergy; I did not say it would be cheap. ;P

(I mean, I noted in multiple places earlier in the thread that I've got eighteen forma in my main Kullervo loadout, and that's not counting the secondary, which I swap to various different weapons as the whim strikes me. I'm not sure what exactly in my prior posts would lead anyone to expect anything remotely resembling restraint on my part as regards forma use.)

Anything else aside, though, I do genuinely thank you for getting that idea of the Argonak/Ceramic Dagger pairing into my brain, even unintentionally; I am genuinely going to experiment with that once I get the cast off and can play again next month, because I think that could make for some fun possibilities... at least under my definition of fun.

And I hope you find something that matches your definition of fun, whether it's in Warframe or elsewhere. But whatever and wherever it might be, it's fairly clear to me I'm not going to be able to help you find it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, Packetdancer said:

If you're saying every weapon needs to be able to be built such that it works with every other possible frame and weapon, you're being at best disingenuous. 

I in no way ever said that every single piece of gear in the game is viable in upper levels of Steel Path entirely in isolation, much less that every single piece of gear can be used for every single possible role.

Some weapons are best suited as a primer, inflicting status effects to be exploited by Condition Overload or Gundition Ov— I mean the Galvanized status mods. Some weapons are best used as exploiters of those status effects. Sometimes you can do weird things like take advantage of the fact that exalted weapons count as abilities but can be modded for elemental damage.

You said that Steel Path forces you to play in one singular way with zero variation. I said I've not found that to be true, there are plenty of different ways to play it. "Many different ways" does not mean every piece of gear works in every role entirely in isolation. You're trying to swing between two absolutes—"I can just only one loadout" or "every piece of gear must be able to do everything entirely without relying on any other piece of gear"—when we're looking at an entire spectrum.

At best, you're seeing things far too black and white. At worst, you're deliberately arguing in bad faith at this point. I would prefer to believe the former, but the truth is that it doesn't really matter in the end which it is.

I did my best to illustrate there are a multitude of ways to build for and play on the Steel Path, and to convince you that you can still have variety there. I was even willing to try to demonstrate in good faith some of the ways you could do so, to help you along that path. That coming up with interesting interactions not only lets you use stuff in unexpected ways, but gets you thinking more creatively about what you take into content.

But at this point it's like the old adage of "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink," and I am not going to expend more energy to attempt to prove that adage wrong. 

If you genuinely want to have more variety in the Steel Path, you can do it. Thinking creatively can be fun! If you are determined to be miserable... that's your call, but if you're not having fun I would recommend you think on if this is a game you actually want to play. And that's my final piece of advice for you.

The metaphorical water is over there; whether or not you drink it is up to you. Either way, I'm done.

You said, and I quote, "Here’s an Argonak; make me a build for it. Pick whatever mods you want."

After you started adding conditions, I said it would be possible to build for pure damage without building atop any synergy; I did not say it would be cheap. ;P

(I mean, I noted in multiple places earlier in the thread that I've got eighteen forma in my main Kullervo loadout, and that's not counting the secondary, which I swap to various different weapons as the whim strikes me. I'm not sure what exactly in my prior posts would lead anyone to expect anything remotely resembling restraint on my part as regards forma use.)

Anything else aside, though, I do genuinely thank you for getting that idea of the Argonak/Ceramic Dagger pairing into my brain, even unintentionally; I am genuinely going to experiment with that once I get the cast off and can play again next month, because I think that could make for some fun possibilities... at least under my definition of fun.

And I hope you find something that matches your definition of fun, whether it's in Warframe or elsewhere. But whatever and wherever it might be, it's fairly clear to me I'm not going to be able to help you find it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And you are completely missing the point; make me a build for that Argonak, using any mods you want, and it will either find its place in Steel Path, or it will find its place outside of steel path because it does not work in Steel Path because if you want the gun to work in Steel #*!%ing Path, you use the god damn Steel Path build!

You gave me some Steel Path build; Fine! It works in Steel Path! Now make a different one! Why do you think I gave you a rifle with two firing modes that do different things depending on the mode? There’s practically zero mods I wouldn’t equip on the gun and every combination to do it in, and the amount of builds that result is massive because of what it is and can do, and not all of them sit in #*!%ing Steel Path but still work because the game isn’t entirely Steel Path and that’s a good thing because we have every range of every level and every build to use across it unless you’re some fool who thinks the only thing worth building for is Steel Path, in which case you lose build options because not every build works in Steel Path and that’s fine because the whole game’s not steel path despite players trying to treat it as such

Edited January 18 by Merkranire
So frustrated at narrow mindedness my grammar and spelling’s all over the place

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Are you taking the design of other linear games, with their linear stat-increases and level increases and matching of levels between enemy and player, and trying to apply it to non-linear Warframe where we don’t have player levels and it’s our build on the modless gear and combinations of our entire kit that determine where we go and what we can do and enemy levels are a guide for what we should expect and how we should expect to build in a game where the way we combine kit and content is mercurial and varied? Have I made a mistake in trying to be a part of the community that knows how the game works and the best way to play it? I feel like I’ve made a mistake

The game is still linear since for every planet the enemy levels, their health and damage increases. We just dont have traditional leveling and we never really leave a "zone" behind when we are done with it. But our power is still linearly progressing as we add mods that alter our offensive and defensive stats by a percentage. We are incentiviced to get to a point where we eventually annihilate lower content. There is nowhere the game incentivices us to build for lower content, the game doesnt even have a power level cap or level sync tied to doing lower content, which is how games tend to solve it when they actually want lower content to also be relevant and somewhat engaging. Here we have free reigns to go ape in lower content.

And you claim SP is some evil mode that requires you to build a specific way that you dont want to. Well the same applies to every other part of the game if you want it to be engaging, which most of us do. The difference is that SP allows us to use everything we've obtained prior to and after it released, while at the same time the SC requires us to leave most slots empty in order for it to get even remotely engaging, and certain parts of the SC is too trivial to the point where we cannot actually downgrade enough to leave it engaging.

It's also hilarious that you go 

14 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I had engaging and rewarding gameplay before listening to you, Ervin. And it was across the whole game, not just SP and including Arbitrations, and it made sense that when DE add new content like bounties, they introduce it at various levels for the various builds I could create and use involving every piece of kit and mods and whatever I’ve earned (resulting in way more than 12-24) and SP was tacked on at the end for my most powerful builds (which your 12-24 would probably have been part of), but the standard game came first and made sense and is balanced.

As if my 12-24 builds are the only builds available for SP. No those just happen to be 12 base builds I tend to enjoy across 12 (out of uhm 55) frames. Each of them have 3 configs ready to be used where one is dedicated to circuit. If it wasnt for the circuit I'd have 3 different builds ready to use on each frame. The only thing that makes them "SP builds" is the TTL and TTK investments. The playstyle wouldnt change one bit if I downgraded them to make SC content engaging, since all I'd do is skip TTL and TTK upgrades. And with how WF works, chances are I wouldnt be able to even strip down my TTK, because it often also ties into other mechanics in the skills that I enjoy for other reasons, no matter the level of the content. Heck I use so many builds that I would actually want unlimted loadout slots.

Also, as much as you claim SP requires specific builds and people need to sacrifice things etc. SC is effectively worse since it not only requires you to not use items you've obtained, it also more or less forces you into groups if you want it to be rewarding. Since enemy density and thereby loot is tied to the size of a group. Not to mention how dull the density is on the SC when playing solo.

6 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Whoah whoah, let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

If I’ve got to have a specific frame, secondary, school, or whatever on top of the gun, then we’ve got a problem.

Build the gun in isolation; the other bits can come later

But a build is when all your options in a loadout come together and synergize. That is how we make a "character" in this game, it is there instead of talent trees, perks, skill trees, attribute distribution, armor classes and so on and so on.