Universal incarnon

[TeaHawk]

Personally I'm trying the get the max out of the Viper Wraith just for fun. Would love to fit some Punch Through in order to trigger Skull Shots more reliably. But there's no room for a simple + Punch Through Mod. I'm really hoping to see some new mechanics being added in order to boost this gun and make in fun some day while desperately rolling for + Punch Through and yet somewhat useful along with it with hundred thousands and maybe next millions Kuva spent. And I think I'm not alone doing these weird things only to get a perfect something that is even useless by any standard despite being aesthetically compelling.

Why not giving a present for all those seeking perfection ? I know it would be better to give an individual treatment for each gun. But why not bringing up one universal intermediate solution ?

There's too many weapons which won't be reworked considering current Incarnon release rate. It will be another abandoned evolution possibility for many guns (as Liches were). What a shame!

Why not just adding something, that will bring some QoL (punch through, - recoil, precision) to all the forgotten weapons? It won't brake any balance. And you can always come back to each gun and give it and individual Incarnon form for players to choose.

What do you think?

Edited January 9 by TeaHawk

[Merkranire]

I don’t see why DE don’t just crank all the stats of our weapons until by default they do Steel Path, and then every single weapon will be viable from the get-go and we’re not sacrificing one thing for another.

Like, why we gotta sacrifice anything, anyways? By default these guns should have punch-through, -recoil, AoE. Work the mods into the base gun so we only have to think about damage, and if everything does Steel Path by default, we don’t need to think too much about that either

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

I don’t see why DE don’t just crank all the stats of our weapons until by default they do Steel Path

Depending on what you mean by this phrasing, that's literally power creep and to such an extreme level most developers would have a heart attack at the prospect. DE promised they do not balance the game around Steel Path, and at the moment that seems to be mostly true -- the new manus hood ornament from The Fragmented One is presented as a super secret bonus reward for only the top 0.01% most dedicated players, rather than something any player can get with default weapons

[TeaHawk]

I'm not asking for the power creep or a miracle or anything granted. There's just some weapons I like in this game, that will be not exploitable beyond some point or simply unrewarding. For some of them there is currently no hope for redemption.

Universal arcane would be this one option for these poor guns terribly lacking love and attention that no riven and no build in the world can fix now a days.

Edited January 9 by TeaHawk

[Merkranire]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

Depending on what you mean by this phrasing, that's literally power creep and to such an extreme level most developers would have a heart attack at the prospect. DE promised they do not balance the game around Steel Path, and at the moment that seems to be mostly true -- the new manus hood ornament from The Fragmented One is presented as a super secret bonus reward for only the top 0.01% most dedicated players, rather than something any player can get with default weapons

I’m looking around and am already seeing some extreme power creep, to the point that Steel Path, the “Test your most powerful builds” mode, is considered the default by the playerbase who knows best.

What’s a bit more? Balance has been gone from the game for as long as I’ve played according to the Veterans of the game, sacrificing power for something else has never been an option. Plus DE are sneaking extra mechanics into Steel Path that aren’t present in the standard game, they’re also making it more valuable a place to be, and they’re ever more enabling more options to be brought to the mode, so methinks that they listened to the playerbase and gave up on Steel Path, with its 4-player spawnrates encouraging AoE (which this community is so susceptible to encouragement, after all) and wonky armour scaling, being an optional bit of content.

No-one’s playing the game for the balanced part and whatever that requires anyways, so……… let’s give the community a win against the developers

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

No-one’s playing the game for the balanced part and whatever that requires anyways, so……… let’s give the community a win against the developers

If you can call that a win? I call that a loss for every party involved

[TeaHawk]

The Incarnon evolution gives you not a simple the damage buff, but rather a few interesting options and quirks, winch is cool if designed by people who actually have played the game with the weapon. For instance I'm really looking forward to get some Punch Through on my Viper headcracker build. Skull Shots once triggered gives you a 2s 100% ammo efficiency. Unfortunately, ticks do not reset the timer. Along with Secondary Deadhead and Arcane Velocity and a fine riven it makes Viper viable at some point. But it terribly lacks versatility and Punch Through.

Incarnon evolution adding some Punch Through would be such a great thing! Not to mention the overall synergy around the headshots. It's just made one for another!

 

tl;dr

 

FFS it's not even a straightforward buff it's a feature for those seeking perfection in ordinary things.

Edited January 9 by TeaHawk

[Merkranire]

10 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

If you can call that a win? I call that a loss for every party involved

Nah. Why do you think it’s so popular a thing to do? It’s a win! It’s what we’re asking for by the way we build and play and how we snub any alternatives; any time something new gets added, it better be more power, or it’s useless, and woe to any expectation that we shed some of what we’ve currently got, even temporarily

Keep in mind though, I’ve had my 2k+ hours of fun; if the game actually went completely community, I ah… got my money’s worth, and am fine with an excuse to move on

Edited January 9 by Merkranire

[TARINunit9]

10 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

any time something new gets added, it better be more power, or it’s useless, and woe to any expectation that we shed some of what we’ve currently got, even temporarily

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not

[Merkranire]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not

Consider it uninformed and incorrect

[(PSN)xIEXISTx]

55 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I don’t see why DE don’t just crank all the stats of our weapons until by default they do Steel Path, and then every single weapon will be viable from the get-go and we’re not sacrificing one thing for another.

I cant tell if youre joking haha

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, TeaHawk said:

The Incarnon evolution gives you not a simple the damage buff, but rather a few interesting options and quirks, winch is cool if designed by people who actually have played the game with the weapon. For instance I'm really looking forward to get some Punch Through on my Viper headcracker build. Skull Shots once triggered gives you a 2s 100% ammo efficiency. Unfortunately, ticks do not reset the timer. Along with Secondary Deadhead and Arcane Velocity and a fine riven it makes Viper viable at some point. But it terribly lacks versatility and Punch Through.

Incarnon evolution adding some Punch Through would be such a great thing! Not to mention the overall synergy around the headshots. It's just made one for another!

 

tl;dr

 

FFS it's not even a straightforward buff it's a feature for those seeking perfection in ordinary things.

Personally, I think it’d be a great addition. After they buff all the stats of our equipment

[TeaHawk]

To me at least some equipment could use a straightforward buff since they're beyond cure now a days.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Eh, this sort of is a loaded idea. Like Incarnons as they are, aren't just random and indiscriminate. Each tends to have upgrade trees, modes, and considerations relevant to what the weapon is. When, and DE does sometimes do this, as in generalised broad changes, there are usually winners and losers, or buffs/nerfs to some weapons. Like with the AOE nerfs, some weapons that were very widespread were effectively affected, but many lesser used weapons were as well, in some cases not even AOE weapons, but weapons with smaller default ammo reserves too. 

Wanting a weapon like Viper Wraith to get buffed, makes sense, and is respectable enough, but you also get into a lot of subjective territory as far as peoples ideas of perfection and what a present is. Some guns for example, are fun, because of their limitations, and or some weapons are unique or fun, because they may offer an advantage another weapon may not, at some other cost. Like, some guns have a lot of punch through and some don't, you have to mod for it, but to someone thats annoying... so lets give all guns punch through... well some also have innate Viral or Heat... or Corrosive. Well okay, so lets make all guns do Viral and Heat and Corrosive... and well this is a horde shooter and AOE were powerful so... lets make all guns, bows, snipers etc do AOE, with punch through, Viral, Corrosive and Heat... and someone will say, well, I never said all that... but therein, is the issue, because you may, but someone else with as equally a valid preference may... 

So back to square one. Also subjective is "forgotten weapons", I use a lot of less popular weapons in Steel Path all the time. I don't think there is any weapon that can't do Steel Path if you want it to. You may just have to put more time synergising it with your other tools, Warframe, etc armour strip set ups, weapons buffing platform Warframes, so on. If you really want to have fun, and have a wide selection of favourite fun, but relatively weaker weapons, Circuit is a very fun way to see them be the most powerful buffed version of themselves. 

Also, to be super clear, am also not opposed to the idea of them getting Incarnons either, just I think they should be specific and purposeful. Considered and implemented. Not just broadly generically implemented, to buff peoples favourite guns. Which will also generally favour generic guns really. Since many of the more unique but relatively weaker weapons, usually are that way for certain reasons, that would require more considered buffs/adjustments and not just the generic buffs like fire rate, punch through etc Thats even before we get into power creep territory. Balancing between weapon types, etc. 

[SDGDen]

3 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I’m looking around and am already seeing some extreme power creep, to the point that Steel Path, the “Test your most powerful builds” mode, is considered the default by the playerbase who knows best.

What’s a bit more? Balance has been gone from the game for as long as I’ve played according to the Veterans of the game, sacrificing power for something else has never been an option. Plus DE are sneaking extra mechanics into Steel Path that aren’t present in the standard game, they’re also making it more valuable a place to be, and they’re ever more enabling more options to be brought to the mode, so methinks that they listened to the playerbase and gave up on Steel Path, with its 4-player spawnrates encouraging AoE (which this community is so susceptible to encouragement, after all) and wonky armour scaling, being an optional bit of content.

No-one’s playing the game for the balanced part and whatever that requires anyways, so……… let’s give the community a win against the developers

hahano.

this kind of mindset is why TFO's per-second damage cap exists.

f*ck the powercreep, bring on the nerf bat. halve the damage of every single weapon in the game pretty please. reduce the effectiveness of base damage mods and multishot. bring back self-damage. 

 

and when all is said and done, remove the stupid 4x armor multiplier from steel path. so SP is just "level +100" without it actually being any easier than it is now. 

 

 

[Mythic]

Qorvex passive gives you +3 punch through.

[Hayrack]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Depending on what you mean by this phrasing, that's literally power creep and to such an extreme level most developers would have a heart attack at the prospect. DE promised they do not balance the game around Steel Path, and at the moment that seems to be mostly true -- the new manus hood ornament from The Fragmented One is presented as a super secret bonus reward for only the top 0.01% most dedicated players, rather than something any player can get with default weapons

 

 

... They literally just added melee "multishot". Sidecreep from powercreep is still the same powercreep in it's essence. Not sure about "dedication" part too. Making cookie cutter builds, Gloom (ok, and a handful of other abilities) subsumed on every warframe and 5 viable weapons is not what I consider a "dedication" let alone "skill".

[Packetdancer]

I feel like saying that because we have significant power-creep it’s totally fine to add more power-creep is a little like saying “well, everything is already on fire, so I might as well set the fire extinguisher on fire, too!"

Edited January 9 by Packetdancer

[(PSN)robotwars7]

9 hours ago, TeaHawk said:

What do you think?

I think you'll be very happy if Viper is one of the next 5 incarnon geneses to be released.. then again, so will I, I like automatic pistols too.

I don't think a universal incarnon will ever happen though, because the incarnon mode is tailored to each weapon, typically in a way that is supposed to complement the base mode. the only thing they all have in common is that they are all incredibly powerful, at least compared to the base mode of their respective host weapon.

[Xzorn]

Incarnons are just the none cash grab Rivens.

It's how it should have been done from the start. +300% of crap is just 300% crap but man I made some good plat back in the day.
Realistically all the crap weapons should have this path to choose for later in progression.

My only gripe with the system is that in about 50% of cases the Incarnon mode is less potent than the base upgraded weapon.

[Tsukinoki]

13 hours ago, TeaHawk said:

Why not just adding something, that will bring some QoL (punch through, - recoil, precision) to all the forgotten weapons? It won't brake any balance. And you can always come back to each gun and give it and individual Incarnon form for players to choose.

What do you think?

10 hours ago, TeaHawk said:

FFS it's not even a straightforward buff it's a feature for those seeking perfection in ordinary things.

Except that you have to realise that most players won't be putting this "universal incarnon" onto a weapon like wraith viper, or other "lower tier" gun like that.
After all why would they when they could just slap it on a Kuva Bramma or other top-tier AOE meta pick instead?

After all it is universal.

What you're asking for here won't be used as a "feature for those seeking perfection in ordinary things", it'll be used by the vast, vast majority as a way to make their broken gear even more broken so that they can one-shot things even further past the level cap in the game.

 

So what would be the limiting factor to prevent that?  If there even was one?

5 hours ago, Hayrack said:

... They literally just added melee "multishot".

With limitations, such as it having to be a normal (yellow) crit.  Which means crit builds can't use it, and it will generally have lower damage output than crit dedicated builds.

Sure it has some uses with status builds, but it isn't a straight upgrade like you're trying to present it as.

And honestly we need more viable builds for melee that aren't just "Build this as a red crit machine"

Edited January 9 by Tsukinoki

[Tiltskillet]

Alternate and less ambitious idea: I think giving most single target weapons innate PT or at least making it more easy to access through exilus or new dual mods would be swell.  It's not as ambitious as a universal Incarnon, but it also doesn't bring up as many issues like "Incarnon Sporelacer, cool cool cool".

[0_The_F00l]

Feels like there can be scope via the helminth for some bonuses to weapons on temporary basis.

But there is so much scope for abuse as well. 

[TeaHawk]

10 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Eh, this sort of is a loaded idea. Like Incarnons as they are, aren't just random and indiscriminate. Each tends to have upgrade trees, modes, and considerations relevant to what the weapon is. When, and DE does sometimes do this, as in generalised broad changes, there are usually winners and losers, or buffs/nerfs to some weapons. Like with the AOE nerfs, some weapons that were very widespread were effectively affected, but many lesser used weapons were as well, in some cases not even AOE weapons, but weapons with smaller default ammo reserves too. 

Wanting a weapon like Viper Wraith to get buffed, makes sense, and is respectable enough, but you also get into a lot of subjective territory as far as peoples ideas of perfection and what a present is. Some guns for example, are fun, because of their limitations, and or some weapons are unique or fun, because they may offer an advantage another weapon may not, at some other cost. Like, some guns have a lot of punch through and some don't, you have to mod for it, but to someone thats annoying... so lets give all guns punch through... well some also have innate Viral or Heat... or Corrosive. Well okay, so lets make all guns do Viral and Heat and Corrosive... and well this is a horde shooter and AOE were powerful so... lets make all guns, bows, snipers etc do AOE, with punch through, Viral, Corrosive and Heat... and someone will say, well, I never said all that... but therein, is the issue, because you may, but someone else with as equally a valid preference may... 

So back to square one. Also subjective is "forgotten weapons", I use a lot of less popular weapons in Steel Path all the time. I don't think there is any weapon that can't do Steel Path if you want it to. You may just have to put more time synergising it with your other tools, Warframe, etc armour strip set ups, weapons buffing platform Warframes, so on. If you really want to have fun, and have a wide selection of favourite fun, but relatively weaker weapons, Circuit is a very fun way to see them be the most powerful buffed version of themselves. 

Also, to be super clear, am also not opposed to the idea of them getting Incarnons either, just I think they should be specific and purposeful. Considered and implemented. Not just broadly generically implemented, to buff peoples favourite guns. Which will also generally favour generic guns really. Since many of the more unique but relatively weaker weapons, usually are that way for certain reasons, that would require more considered buffs/adjustments and not just the generic buffs like fire rate, punch through etc Thats even before we get into power creep territory. Balancing between weapon types, etc. 

Each gun getting its own Incarnon with specific perk-sets options for different play-styles and new ways of triggering the Incarnon form and Incarnon mods... That's how I see a perfect solution. But unfortunately I don't belive this will ever happen. And currently I'm stuck in this particular weapon progression. Some guns are boring to play not because they're not powerful enough but rather because they lack interesting mechanics.

[TeaHawk]

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Except that you have to realise that most players won't be putting this "universal incarnon" onto a weapon like wraith viper, or other "lower tier" gun like that.
After all why would they when they could just slap it on a Kuva Bramma or other top-tier AOE meta pick instead?

After all it is universal.

What you're asking for here won't be used as a "feature for those seeking perfection in ordinary things", it'll be used by the vast, vast majority as a way to make their broken gear even more broken so that they can one-shot things even further past the level cap in the game.

Their gear is already broken so as the enemy scaling system. You can't fight this category of players and it's simply useless. Players not running for meta every second must not be punished because that one guy having fun nuking an entire room of lvl 9999 after he spent his entire life farming stuff in the game. This guy will find his way into nuking the room (or being proficient in any other category of the gameplay) eventually one way or another.

Come on!

This game is beyond balance for years now. Don't make it dull.

Edited January 9 by TeaHawk