Universal incarnon

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

The game is still linear since for every planet the enemy levels, their health and damage increases. We just dont have traditional leveling and we never really leave a "zone" behind when we are done with it. But our power is still linearly progressing as we add mods that alter our offensive and defensive stats by a percentage. We are incentiviced to get to a point where we eventually annihilate lower content. There is nowhere the game incentivices us to build for lower content, the game doesnt even have a power level cap or level sync tied to doing lower content, which is how games tend to solve it when they actually want lower content to also be relevant and somewhat engaging. Here we have free reigns to go ape in lower content.

And you claim SP is some evil mode that requires you to build a specific way that you dont want to. Well the same applies to every other part of the game if you want it to be engaging, which most of us do. The difference is that SP allows us to use everything we've obtained prior to and after it released, while at the same time the SC requires us to leave most slots empty in order for it to get even remotely engaging, and certain parts of the SC is too trivial to the point where we cannot actually downgrade enough to leave it engaging.

It's also hilarious that you go 

As if my 12-24 builds are the only builds available for SP. No those just happen to be 12 base builds I tend to enjoy across 12 (out of uhm 55) frames. Each of them have 3 configs ready to be used where one is dedicated to circuit. If it wasnt for the circuit I'd have 3 different builds ready to use on each frame. The only thing that makes them "SP builds" is the TTL and TTK investments. The playstyle wouldnt change one bit if I downgraded them to make SC content engaging, since all I'd do is skip TTL and TTK upgrades. And with how WF works, chances are I wouldnt be able to even strip down my TTK, because it often also ties into other mechanics in the skills that I enjoy for other reasons, no matter the level of the content. Heck I use so many builds that I would actually want unlimted loadout slots.

Also, as much as you claim SP requires specific builds and people need to sacrifice things etc. SC is effectively worse since it not only requires you to not use items you've obtained, it also more or less forces you into groups if you want it to be rewarding. Since enemy density and thereby loot is tied to the size of a group. Not to mention how dull the density is on the SC when playing solo.

But a build is when all your options in a loadout come together and synergize. That is how we make a "character" in this game, it is there instead of talent trees, perks, skill trees, attribute distribution, armor classes and so on and so on.

 

I get that you’re trying to save me from myself, @Packetdancer, but despite the facetious behaviour I demonstrated I can assure you that I need no saving since I’m spread across the entire game, from level 20 to Steel Path, using every build and loadout I could possibly want  and experiencing the game in any way I please, being perpetually rewarded for crafting my builds and gameplay as I will, including how you and @SneakyErvin are and then more.

And part of that comes from taking things that the community says with a grain of salt if not outright ignoring them when they try and tell me there’s only certain ways worth playing and trying to gaslight me into thinking that the game’s designed to be limited and annoying and a second job full of chores. And when players act like the only thing worth doing is Steel Path, I’m left aghast and looking at the rest of the game that lets us do more on top of whatever SP lets us do (and in a more-balanced way, too)

And this has always been a culture of this community before the extra powercreep that provided the chance to bring more options to the mode that was designed for players to test their few most OP builds to see how they fared, even before the introduction of Steel Path; players always had warped view of what’s a garbage build and what isn’t

 

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

when they try and tell me there’s only certain ways worth playing and trying to gaslight me into thinking that the game’s designed to be limited and annoying and a second job full of chores.

That isnt what anyone has said to you. Since the original point I made to you in the other thread was regarding your stance about new loot getting added to SP. At which point I said that the imbalance of SP is a misconception rooted in simply not wanting to use the items people have obtained through their progression while still wanting all the loot the game has to offer. And you've then gone in circles, saying you build specifically for SC while making use of everything the game has offered you in order to get an egaging experience.

Hmm how the #*!% does someone get an egaging experience on the SC by equipping shards, weapon arcanes, arcanes, companions, operator schools, certain frames etc? Much less so the further down the line of planets you get. But wait, so you dont equip the shards and arcanes then maybe? Well then how can you claim you use everything the game has offered you?

[Merkranire]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt what anyone has said to you. Since the original point I made to you in the other thread was regarding your stance about new loot getting added to SP. At which point I said that the imbalance of SP is a misconception rooted in simply not wanting to use the items people have obtained through their progression while still wanting all the loot the game has to offer. And you've then gone in circles, saying you build specifically for SC while making use of everything the game has offered you in order to get an egaging experience.

Hmm how the #*!% does someone get an egaging experience on the SC by equipping shards, weapon arcanes, arcanes, companions, operator schools, certain frames etc? Much less so the further down the line of planets you get. But wait, so you dont equip the shards and arcanes then maybe? Well then how can you claim you use everything the game has offered you?

I equip the shards and Arcanes. In fact, I’m quite keen to earn more. Nothing’s off the table, except maybe mods like Warm Coat which even I can’t find a use for. It all comes down to what I use, how I build it, where I take it, and how I want to play

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I equip the shards and Arcanes. In fact, I’m quite keen to earn more. Nothing’s off the table, except maybe mods like Warm Coat which even I can’t find a use for. It all comes down to what I use, how I build it, where I take it, and how I want to play

And what role do those fill in your builds for SC content? Pretty much either of the two would throw lower planets into imbalance while you claim you seek engagement and balance. Unless you of course make use of those that dont really do anything, at which point it is hard to consider it a build, since they all of a sudden fill no purpose and might aswell be blank slots. Same pretty much goes for how you mod weapons and frames to keep lower planets engaging compared to higher.

[Merkranire]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

And what role do those fill in your builds for SC content? Pretty much either of the two would throw lower planets into imbalance while you claim you seek engagement and balance. Unless you of course make use of those that dont really do anything, at which point it is hard to consider it a build, since they all of a sudden fill no purpose and might aswell be blank slots. Same pretty much goes for how you mod weapons and frames to keep lower planets engaging compared to higher.

Well, I start from the beginning, maybe choose what I’m doing and how I want to do it or want to use a build I’ve made before, identify what I need in the first place and what helps or hinders the experience, figure out any synergies I may want (not a lot of synergy to be had if I bring some Meta AoE, and I’ve already got a heavy weapon for when things get hairy, though I’m not saying some Meta AoE is necessarily off the table either) or just jump in to learn potentially surprising new ones.

Sometimes I’m built for a certain range of content and I shift higher or lower than I normally would and some new kit dynamics may make themselves apparent due to the differing threat levels and TTKs. Sometimes I’m using a Steel Path build designed for Steel Path and thus I take it to Steel Path. Sometimes I just make a build where a particular piece of gear performs a certain way for a certain bit of content and adjust the rest of my kit accordingly since I may either need to rebuild a lower-level build or I have redundant amounts of power elsewhere I can replace with something else instead of just leaving a hole there.

Usually I’m careful about Forma investments since it becomes a specialisation system after enough of them and starts causing problems if I want to build a different way, though the upside is that I don’t need to sink all the forma into everything to have a good time; means I may have empty slots even though I’ve got no capacity, but I’ve already removed forma for getting in the way before, and I’m not someone who thinks the only thing worth chasing is power.

It’s not so simple as just throwing some random stuff on and expecting some fun gameplay, though there’s also no reason not to just try something wacky in the unlikely places

[Packetdancer]

7 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I get that you’re trying to save me from myself, @Packetdancer, but despite the facetious behaviour I demonstrated I can assure you that I need no saving since I’m spread across the entire game, from level 20 to Steel Path, using every build and loadout I could possibly want  and experiencing the game in any way I please, being perpetually rewarded for crafting my builds and gameplay as I will, including how you and @SneakyErvin are and then more.

I was not trying to "save" anyone; I was taking your complaints at face value that Steel Path forces you, personally, into using only one "meta" build for any given thing. As such, I was trying to provide help/advice to show that, no, you can still enjoy variety in the game. I -- like many other players -- like to try to help folks if it seems they are struggling, or not finding their fun in the game.

As you have now clarified that you are in fact being facetious/trolling, and are well aware your claims that there's a lack of variety in Steel Path are false and ridiculous, that you were in fact deliberately arguing in bad faith, and that you in fact are capable of using multiple things in Steel Path... clearly, yes, that's not the thing you need any "saving" from.

So, I apologize for the misread of the situation; I'll avoid making the mistake of taking your posts seriously in the future.

Edited January 18 by Packetdancer

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

I was not trying to "save" anyone; I was taking your complaints at face value that Steel Path forces you, personally, into using only one "meta" build for any given thing. As such, I was trying to provide help/advice to show that, no, you can still enjoy variety in the game. I -- like many other players -- like to try to help folks if it seems they are struggling, or not finding their fun in the game.

As you have now clarified that you are in fact being facetious/trolling, and are well aware your claims that there's a lack of variety in Steel Path are false and ridiculous, that you were in fact deliberately arguing in bad faith, and that you in fact are capable of using multiple things in Steel Path... clearly, yes, that's not the thing you need any "saving" from.

So, I apologize for the misread of the situation; I'll avoid making the mistake of taking your posts seriously in the future.

I’m well aware of the variety that the game offers, and I kept saying “Not all builds work in Steel Path”, which does not mean no builds work in Steel Path.

You make builds that work in Steel Path and seem oblivious to what I’m trying to say, I’m going to roll my eyes because I already knew that there are builds that work in Steel Path, I make them even if they’re not Meta, partly in thanks to the amount of power creep players keep complaining about. I’m saying not all builds work in Steel Path. You’ve got every single mod and Arcane to pick from for that Argonak, and you can’t even make a build that works elsewhere and fulfils a purpose and is fun to use even if it doesn’t work in Steel Path; it’s like your brain is rotted with Steel Path, which raises questions about just how much of the game’s variety of builds and gameplay you’re aware of; if you did happen to make an alternative build, would you have been able to tell me where you’d use it and what its limits are, I wonder, or would you be one of those useless veterans who regurgitate guides and Youtubes and can only tell newbies what to use instead of how to use what they’ve got and get the most out of what they want, which doesn’t always involve sinking forma into every slot with wild abandon

edit: So many edits because I get frustrated, because this is kind of personal as well; I was a newbie once, and this community failed me. And when I talk to you or @SneakyErvin, I’m seeing a repeat of the community mentality that failed me, obscured the true depth of the game, and would have caused me to burn out and get jaded had I not told it to get bent

 

Edited January 18 by Merkranire

[Packetdancer]

59 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I’m well aware of the variety that the game offers, and I kept saying “Not all builds work in Steel Path”, which does not mean no builds work in Steel Path.

I never said all builds did. I said, in fact, exactly the opposite.

The things I said, which you argued with, are:

• You do not need to play Steel Path to play the game; it is largely* an optional thing that exists to give the lunatic fringe of build-theorycrafters a place to play so that balance is not broken in the rest of the game. People should not feel pressured into treating it as the only real content.
  You insisted you did need to play it, because it was "the only real game" and not doing so would mean you would "lag behind."
• Okay, if you do want to play Steel Path, there are many viable builds; if this content is what you want to do, there are options to keep variety.
  You argued that this was not true; you felt you were forced into a singular, meta playstyle with zero variation when in the Steel Path because only a handful of things were viable there.
• Not everything is viable in Steel Path on its own -- nor should it be, in my opinion -- but if you feel forced into a singular playstyle, you're not fully examining your options; there are more viable ways to approach it than you might think. And creative approaches to a build can be fun.
  You argued that this was not true, that only a handful of things are viable, and demanded I prove that more than a handful are viable by making a build for the Argonak... then when I suggested an interesting synergy to make it viable, insisted I make you one that could do enough damage in isolation. When I proved game to try, to show you aren't limited to a handful of things on the Steel Path, you kept moving the goalposts -- evidently in hopes of making it an impossible task.

* I say "largely" because I know there are things you can only get on the Steel Path and cannot trade for -- namely, incarnon genesis adapters. And despite my love of the Steel Circuit, I am on record in many threads as saying that I think those adapters being exclusive to the Steel Path is a problem considering the mode is meant to be optional.

Now, you are implying you agree with the listed statements, that you know the Steel Path is not the only part of the game, that you know variety is possible there, and are perfectly capable of accessing such variety on your own.

My only conclusion is therefore that you either wildly misread what I was saying, or that you are a troll.

 

59 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

edit: So many edits because I get frustrated, because this is kind of personal as well; I was a newbie once, and this community failed me. And when I talk to you or @SneakyErvin, I’m seeing a repeat of the community mentality that failed me, obscured the true depth of the game, and would have caused me to burn out and get jaded had I not told it to get bent

...right, so assuring you that the Steel Path is optional, yet still offering to provide advice and examples on how to build for variety and enjoy the game if you personally felt you needed to play that mode regardless of it being entirely optional... that is newbie-unfriendly.

If so, I'm not sure what advice you think would've been newbie-helpful. Insisting the Steel Path was the only valid content, and that there's only One True Way to play the game? Those aren't answers I could've given, both because I think those would be more harmful attitudes to give newbies and because I don't personally believe either of those things. As my posts in this thread demonstrate.

On the other hand, thank you for providing the answer to "misreading" vs "active troll" fairly clearly there; I shall take this as a reminder not to feed forum trolls in the future.

Edited January 18 by Packetdancer

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, Packetdancer said:

I never said they did. I said, in fact, exactly the opposite. The things I said, which you argued with, are:

 

 

• You do not need to play Steel Path to play the game; it is largely* an optional thing that exists to give the lunatic fringe of build-theorycrafters a place to play so that balance is not broken in the rest of the game. People should not feel pressured into treating it as the only real content.
  You insisted you did need to play it, because it was "the only real game" and not doing so would mean you would "lag behind."
• Okay, if you do want to play Steel Path, there are many viable builds; if this content is what you want to do, there are options to keep variety.
  You argued that this was not true; you felt you were forced into a singular, meta playstyle with zero variation when in the Steel Path because only a handful of things were viable there.
• Not everything is viable in Steel Path on its own -- nor should it be -- but if you feel forced into a singular playstyle, you're not fully examining your options; there are more viable ways to approach it than you might think.
  You argued that this was not true, that only a handful of things are viable, and demanded I prove that more than a handful are viable by making a build for the Argonak... then when I obliged, kept moving the goalposts -- evidently in hopes of making it an impossible task.

* I say "largely" because I know there are things you can only get on the Steel Path and cannot trade for -- namely, incarnon genesis adapters. And despite my love of the Steel Circuit, I am on record in many threads as saying that I think those adapters being exclusive to the Steel Path is a problem considering the mode is meant to be optional.

Now, you are implying you agree with the listed statements, that you know the Steel Path is not the only part of the game, that you know variety is possible there, and are perfectly capable of accessing such variety on your own.

My only conclusion is therefore that you either wildly misread what I was saying, or that you are a troll.

 

...right, so assuring you that the Steel Path is optional, yet still offering to provide advice and examples on how to build for variety and enjoy the game if you personally felt you needed to play that mode regardless of it being entirely optional... that is newbie-unfriendly.

If so, I'm not sure what advice you think would've been newbie-helpful. Insisting the Steel Path was the only valid content, and that there's only One True Way to play the game? Those aren't answers I could've given, both because I think those would be more harmful attitudes to give newbies and because I don't personally believe either of those things. As my posts in this thread demonstrate.

On the other hand, thank you for providing the answer to "misreading" vs "active troll" fairly clearly there; I shall take this as a reminder not to feed forum trolls in the future.

You assured me that Steel Path is optional and that I don’t need to build like I’m playing it, what would you give me as an alternative.

Make that Argonak build again, this time with the intent of making it for level 60 content; you can’t do modless because the gun simply won’t do anything, but you don’t need whatever you’d use for Steel Path, because I’m not looking to one-shot everything, just do enough, regardless of whether I’m some newbie with limited capacity and mods or some 2k hours player with 5 forma and a potato looking to have some fun

And bear in mind, I don’t have a problem with Steel Path if you’re going to be like Ervin, who I repeatedly hit over the head with this fact which ultimately drove me to act like I completely 180’d because it wasn’t getting through when I told him I didn’t mind SP, so maybe I should act like I hated it. I like that Steel Path is more limited than non-Steel Path, I liked it more when it was more limited because there was a more-clear delineation between The Build Test mode and Standard, I was one of the players who wanted Steel Path but without all the extra rewards, I just wanted someplace to go for some of my most powerful builds

[Packetdancer]

19 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

You assured me that Steel Path is optional and that I don’t need to build like I’m playing it, what would you give me as an alternative.

Make that Argonak build again, this time with the intent of making it for level 60 content; you can’t do modless because the gun simply won’t do anything, but you don’t need whatever you’d use for Steel Path, because I’m not looking to one-shot everything, just do enough, regardless of whether I’m some newbie with limited capacity and mods or some 2k hours player with 5 forma and a potato looking to have some fun

I will assure you that you can make an Argonak build that does what you want. But I'm not going to waste my time just to have you start tossing out "oh, well, I didn't tell you this, but it can only do heat damage, but I want it to be super effective against Corpus specifically, and also it needs a fire rate of exactly this" or whatever the hell other little cutesy goalpost-moving exercises you plan to engage in this time.

As I've said already in this thread, making builds in this game is my fun, or at least a large part of it; that's in no way tied solely to the Steel Path, it's just that when making builds for myself, the amount of stuff I have available to use makes Steel Path the better place to experiment. But I've had newbies share what mods and gear they have available, and helped them make a build with what they've already got which is suitable for tackling where they are in the star chart. I find figuring out what will work for them under those constraints to be rewarding, every bit as much as I find concocting some wildly-broken Steel Path monstrosity for myself to be. Maybe even more rewarding.

(Side note: I still think Orb Vallis and Deimos have kinda dumb scaling for where newbies hit them these days. Those are usually the problem spaces where people seem to first need help with builds. Anyway.)

But while I'm normally happy to make builds of all sorts for folks, I am done treating your requests seriously; you've demonstrated you have zero actual desire for a build, and that even if I help you make one, you'll then change the rules and demand a different one. You've said you can build for the Steel Path and the star chart both? Excellent, you don't need me to prove to you that the Argonak can be built that way; go build it yourself.

I'm done playing games with trolls; I would rather spend my time helping people who actually want (and can benefit from) that sort of help.

Edited January 18 by Packetdancer

[Merkranire]

19 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

I will assure you that you can make an Argonak build that does what you want. But I'm not going to waste my time just to have you start tossing out "oh, well, I didn't tell you this, but it can only do heat damage, but I want it to be super effective against Corpus specifically, and also it needs a fire rate of exactly this" or whatever the hell other little cutesy goalpost-moving exercises you plan to engage in this time.

As I've said already in this thread, making builds in this game is my fun, or at least a large part of it; that's in no way tied solely to the Steel Path, it's just that when making builds for myself, the amount of stuff I have available to use makes Steel Path the better place to experiment. But I've had newbies share what mods and gear they have available, and helped them make a build with what they've already got which is suitable for tackling where they are in the star chart. I find figuring out what will work for them under those constraints to be rewarding, every bit as much as I find concocting some wildly-broken Steel Path monstrosity for myself to be. Maybe even more rewarding.

(Side note: I still think Orb Vallis and Deimos have kinda dumb scaling for where newbies hit them these days. Those are usually the problem spaces where people seem to first need help with builds. Anyway.)

But while I'm normally happy to make builds of all sorts for folks, I am done treating your requests seriously; you've demonstrated you have zero actual desire for a build, and that even if I help you make one, you'll then change the rules and demand a different one. You've said you can build for the Steel Path and the star chart both? Excellent, you don't need me to prove to you that the Argonak can be built that way; go build it yourself.

I'm done playing games with trolls; I would rather spend my time helping people who actually want (and can benefit from) that sort of help.

Alas, my attempts to have someone add to the pool of builds to take into Arbitrations goes wasted, and all we get are even more Steel Path builds.

It’s no wonder all anyone can talk about Steel Path, the default is Steel Path.

I’ve scared the resident buildmaster away with unreasonable expectations when the game itself has designed Arbitrations for different builds to what sits in Steel Path, and I was quite interested in seeing what you come up with with no strings attached, for you see, Arbitrations doesn’t need something else to make the Argonak work. If your Enough involves more damage than my Enough, so be it, so long as I’m not just using some Steel Path build

[Packetdancer]

4 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Alas, my attempts to have someone add to the pool of builds to take into Arbitrations goes wasted, and all we get are even more Steel Path builds.

You know that ancient Peanuts comic, where there's a running gag where Lucy tells Charlie Brown to kick a football, and yet she always yanks it away at the last second, making him fall over? Let's just say I've got better pattern recognition than Charlie Brown.

Spoiler

So, no; we're not playing the "pull the football away at the last second" game again when you've already yanked it away several times in the thread.

 

6 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I’ve scared the resident buildmaster away with unreasonable expectations

I'm someone who likes to concoct builds -- and to help others make them -- hardly some "resident buildmaster" who descends from the mountain and whose word shall be law, or whatever. I like to think I'm good at putting together interesting builds, but I am absolutely certain there's people out there who are far better. There are certainly people out there as capable.

Heck, you said that you yourself are capable of building for both Steel Path and the star chart; I have faith you are therefore capable of making a build that falls somewhere in-between for Arbitrations.

 

8 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

It’s no wonder all anyone can talk about Steel Path, the default is Steel Path.

If I pretend there's any chance this statement is sincere, I actually agree with you on this part.

I do genuinely think it's unfortunate that nearly every build video, every "how to mod" guide, and so on targets Steel Path. Both because there's a lot more of the game to enjoy than just Steel Path, and -- this being the bigger problem -- because it makes newbies think "oh gosh, I need all these mods and all these forma to make this piece of gear work" and that's just not true for the vast majority of content in this game.

It's literally why I have been (admittedly very slowly) been working on a "how to mod" guide for newer Tenno I know, which tries to avoid that sort of excess.

Anyway. With that, I am done... both with this post, and this thread.

[Merkranire]

 

1 hour ago, Packetdancer said:

You know that ancient Peanuts comic, where there's a running gag where Lucy tells Charlie Brown to kick a football, and yet she always yanks it away at the last second, making him fall over? Let's just say I've got better pattern recognition than Charlie Brown.

  Reveal hidden contents

So, no; we're not playing the "pull the football away at the last second" game again when you've already yanked it away several times in the thread.

 

I'm someone who likes to concoct builds -- and to help others make them -- hardly some "resident buildmaster" who descends from the mountain and whose word shall be law, or whatever. I like to think I'm good at putting together interesting builds, but I am absolutely certain there's people out there who are far better. There are certainly people out there as capable.

Heck, you said that you yourself are capable of building for both Steel Path and the star chart; I have faith you are therefore capable of making a build that falls somewhere in-between for Arbitrations.

 

If I pretend there's any chance this statement is sincere, I actually agree with you on this part.

I do genuinely think it's unfortunate that nearly every build video, every "how to mod" guide, and so on targets Steel Path. Both because there's a lot more of the game to enjoy than just Steel Path, and -- this being the bigger problem -- because it makes newbies think "oh gosh, I need all these mods and all these forma to make this piece of gear work" and that's just not true for the vast majority of content in this game.

It's literally why I have been (admittedly very slowly) been working on a "how to mod" guide for newer Tenno I know, which tries to avoid that sort of excess.

Anyway. With that, I am done... both with this post, and this thread.

Not gonna lie, that last part just undermined my impression of you. When we started talking, you were part of the community that failed me; you said things they do, did things they do, so I’m thinking you’re a duck.

Here’s an Argonak build I’d consider and have taken into at least the first round of Arbitrations. I can’t figure out Overframe so I’m just going to tell you; the gun’s got a potato, 3 V polarities, and a -, and has Serration, Stormbringer, and Hellfire.

That’s 5 slots (6 including the Exilus slot), 36 capacity, and an Arcane slot left over. It’s not the only way to build the gun for level 60 (I’m quite partial to raw Electric, myself, and the build is adjusted accordingly), and the amount of required firepower from mods shifts accordingly when you start using Arcanes, but it’s concise, does a job, and is understandable what that job is when you start shooting bad guys and why it’s suited to some factions but not others, so long as your newbies understand the fundamentals of damage types. Note that I would hesitate to use this build on my Switch since on console I need to be more overbuilt than I do on PC due to the survival acrobatics and precision aiming I can pull off on PC that I can’t do on Switch

Edited January 19 by Merkranire

[Tiltskillet]

32 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

Anyway. With that, I am done... both with this post, and this thread.

[Packetdancer]

35 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Not gonna lie, that last part just undermined my impression of you. When we started talking, you were part of the community that failed me; you said things they do, did things they do, so I’m thinking you’re a duck.

Evidently, I don't know when to stop.

If you were genuinely not trying to troll, then I think you really severely misread what I was trying to say.

(I will, in full fairness, grant that due to the previously-mentioned busted hand making typing a pain, I may also be taking shortcuts in my explanations and not at my usual level of eloquence. But still.)

Because I absolutely disagree with the premise that Steel Path should be required content in any way, and I greatly dislike the trend of all build guides being focused on Steel Path and thus horribly unfriendly to newbies. This opinion is not quietly held or played close to the vest, either; I've been fairly loud in past threads about the fact that I think the complexity of the modding system driving folks to find external guides -- combined with the fact that like 99% of those external guides are focused entirely on how to overwhelm things on the Steel Path -- is possibly the single largest problem this game has in terms of the new player experience (and early player retention, for that matter).

How long it takes to get to the meat of the main story is a close second, mind you.

But that belief is why I chose to put my money where my mouth is, as it were, and start working on a newbie-friendly "modding for the star chart" guide... which, alas, is hard to work on right now, because *frustrated noises and gesticulating with hand in cast*. (As it is, I am posting via using a swipe-keyboard on an iPad one-handed; actually writing significant content is both a metaphorical and literal pain.)

The fact that I vehemently dislike that trend of "build for the Steel Path and only the Steel Path," however, will not stop me from nonetheless trying to help folks who are at the point of being able to access the Steel Path and who genuinely choose to do that content. The idea that you must blindly follow the meta is a pervasive one, and one that I think makes people's enjoyment of the game suffer. So if they're determined to do the Steel Path, I'm generally more than happy to help someone come up with alternate ways to approach that content which better mesh with the play-style they enjoy in the game.

I'm just also equally happy to get a list of "these are the mods/weapons/frames I have, help, how do I not die in the Cambion Drift" and come up with builds within those constraints, too. Because offering build advice has never been about the Steel Path for me, it's about the fact that I can take something I enjoy doing (buildcrafting) and use it to solve for "someone wants to do <X> but doesn't feel they can build for it -- or if they can, it won't be in a way that will be enjoyable to them."

It's merely that "the Steel Path" is a relatively common value for <X> there.

 

35 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Here’s an Argonak build I’d consider and have taken into at least the first round of Arbitrations. I can’t figure out Overframe so I’m just going to tell you; the gun’s got a potato, 3 V polarities, and a -, and has Serration, Stormbringer, and Hellfire.

That’s 5 slots (6 including the Exilus slot), 36 capacity, and an Arcane slot left over. It’s not the only way to build the gun for level 60, and the amount of required firepower from mods shifts accordingly when you start using Arcanes, but it’s concise, does a job, and is understandable what that job is when you start shooting bad guys and why it’s suited to some factions but not others, so long as your newbies understand the fundamentals of damage types.

Overframe's interface is... I'll be polite and go with "an acquired taste."

That seems a reasonable base build, yes. Though if we're assuming the person is aiming to use this in Arbitrations and thus has access to Galvanized mods as a result -- or is very nearly about to have said access after a couple of runs to gather vitus essence -- then if they find they're struggling at all with it, I might encourage picking up Galvanized Chamber in addition to augment the build; it's an easy boost to base damage without having to also build towards crit damage (as with Galvanized Scope), and the capacity is certainly there even without another forma-reset.

 

(Now I am actually going to bow out, because anything else aside, my hand needs a rest.)

Edited January 19 by Packetdancer

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, Packetdancer said:

Evidently, I don't know when to stop.

If you were genuinely not trying to troll, then I think you really severely misread what I was trying to say.

(I will, in full fairness, grant that due to the previously-mentioned busted hand making typing a pain, I may also be taking shortcuts in my explanations and not at my usual level of eloquence. But still.)

Because I absolutely disagree with the premise that Steel Path should be required content in any way, and I greatly dislike the trend of all build guides being focused on Steel Path and thus horribly unfriendly to newbies. This opinion is not quietly held or played close to the vest, either; I've been fairly loud in past threads about the fact that I think the complexity of the modding system driving folks to find external guides -- combined with the fact that like 99% of those external guides are focused entirely on how to overwhelm things on the Steel Path -- is possibly the single largest problem this game has in terms of the new player experience (and early player retention, for that matter).

How long it takes to get to the meat of the main story is a close second, mind you.

But that belief is why I chose to put my money where my mouth is, as it were, and start working on a newbie-friendly "modding for the star chart" guide... which, alas, is hard to work on right now, because *frustrated noises and gesticulating with hand in cast*. (As it is, I am posting via using a swipe-keyboard on an iPad one-handed; actually writing significant content is both a metaphorical and literal pain.)

The fact that I vehemently dislike that trend of "build for the Steel Path and only the Steel Path," however, will not stop me from nonetheless trying to help folks who are at the point of being able to access the Steel Path and who genuinely choose to do that content. The idea that you must blindly follow the meta is a pervasive one, and one that I think makes people's enjoyment of the game suffer. So if they're determined to do the Steel Path, I'm generally more than happy to help someone come up with alternate ways to approach that content which better mesh with the play-style they enjoy in the game.

I'm just also equally happy to get a list of "these are the mods/weapons/frames I have, help, how do I not die in the Cambion Drift" and come up with builds within those constraints, too. Because offering build advice has never been about the Steel Path for me, it's about the fact that I can take something I enjoy doing (buildcrafting) and use it to solve for "someone wants to do <X> but doesn't feel they can build for it -- or if they can, it won't be in a way that will be enjoyable to them."

It's merely that "the Steel Path" is a relatively common value for <X> there.

 

Overframe's interface is... I'll be polite and go with "an acquired taste."

That seems a reasonable base build, yes. Though if we're assuming the person is aiming to use this in Arbitrations and thus has access to Galvanized mods as a result -- or is very nearly about to have said access after a couple of runs to gather vitus essence -- then if they find they're struggling at all with it, I might encourage picking up Galvanized Chamber in addition to augment the build; it's an easy boost to base damage without having to also build towards crit damage (as with Galvanized Scope), and the capacity is certainly there even without another forma-reset.

Sure, Galvanised is another mod worth considering. Bear in mind though that that free capacity and slots aren’t just decorative or only for filling with more damage, and I think this is something most players take for granted; those free slots are how you customise your gear for the content you’re doing. If it’s going to eat into the capacity too much, we might have a conflict with goals and desires, and if they add a Galvanised into the mix, now they’re built for something higher-level, as that’s what damage mods are for. If they want to replace something that’s already there, then the build will shift available capacity and it may not even be worth it for the impact it has on whatever else was slotted

Remember that we’re building for level 60, not Steel Path. If they need the help, by all means, but the more damage gets added, the fewer spare slots and capacity, the higher the level of content they’re built for, potentially the more forma they need to start investing, and the further they get from being built for level 60 with all the build freedom that brings with it that Steel Path won’t allow

[Packetdancer]

4 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Remember that we’re building for level 60, not Steel Path. If they need the help, by all means, but the more damage gets added, the fewer spare slots and capacity, the higher the level of content they’re built for, potentially the more forma they need to start investing, and the further they get from being built for level 60 with all the build freedom that brings with it that Steel Path won’t allow

Yeah, it's why I said it was a contingency only if they felt they were struggling; there are obviously other ways to provide a little more "oomph" if they're finding the time-to-kill with the build isn't working for them, that one's just an easy option since in the hypothetical scenario, we know they're doing the content which gives them access to that option.

Because while I can easily think of a half-dozen other ways to give a little push if they found they needed a tiny bit more "oomph," I don't necessarily have confidence our hypothetical Tenno will have access to those ways; Galvanized Chamber, I do know they can get their hands on in this scenario.

 

(REALLY going now for real.)

Edited January 19 by Packetdancer

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, Packetdancer said:

Yeah, it's why I said it was a contingency only if they felt they were struggling; there are obviously other ways to provide a little more "oomph" if they're finding the time-to-kill with the build isn't working for them, that one's just an easy option since in the hypothetical scenario, we know they're doing the content which gives them access to that option.

Because while I can easily think of a half-dozen other ways to give a little push if they found they needed a tiny bit more "oomph," I don't necessarily have confidence our hypothetical Tenno will have access to those ways; Galvanized Chamber, I do know they can get their hands on in this scenario.

For sure there’s a lot of nuance; I was hesitant to post a build with a fully-ranked Serration because we all know how expensive that can get.

Mind you, something that no-one talks about is how fully-ranking a mod suddenly makes building so much easier and a lot less of a pain; you’re not juggling half-ranks, wondering if a little bit of Viral is going to be optimal, just how much armour to strip away while leaving behind a teeny amount to take advantage of any weaknesses it has. Because most of the game doesn’t need that level of minmaxing, it’s a fairly understandable system once you get the fundamentals down, and I haven’t looked back in years since fully-ranking. It’s like “I want these effects for this content and this loadout using these mods; can I fit them, and if I can’t how I can I still make it work”. Juggling limits and goals is part of why I love building in this game.

 

Hey, I wanted to apologize for my behaviour as well.

I came on really aggressively, and I’m not trying to make enemies even if it’s hard to tell. I think your goal to further newbie education and general education is noble, and even from the start I was saddened to hear about your hand. I think we’re reading from the same book even if not on the same specific page, and hope that you make good progress on your writing and training once you recover

[Merkranire]

20 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

(REALLY going now for real.)

See you around, and I’ll be less of an A****** next time

[Packetdancer]

6 hours ago, Merkranire said:

For sure there’s a lot of nuance; I was hesitant to post a build with a fully-ranked Serration because we all know how expensive that can get.

Mind you, something that no-one talks about is how fully-ranking a mod suddenly makes building so much easier and a lot less of a pain […]

What's almost worse is that in the beginning of things it is far better not to max a mod out; the amount of endo required to get from rank 9 to 10 can could rank an entire second mod to rank 9. And two rank 8 or 9 mods will generally make a far bigger difference through at least the first half of the star chart—possibly longer—than one rank 10 and and one rank 0 will. Yet after a certain point, reaching breakpoints in stats becomes way more important than before, and max-ranking a specific mod can become more crucial to a build's effectiveness. But where that point is varies quite a bit, depending on the gear and mods involved.

Sure, if you've got the endo to max-rank something you have the freedom to use it effectively in more builds... but if you lack the endo (or the forma and potatoes to fit the extra drain, if needed), there's no simple guidance you can be given on when to prioritize max-ranking a given mod. And "well, it depends" is neither useful nor satisfying as an answer.

That's one of the things I was trying to boil down into a more easily understood form in the modding guide… and one of the topics that has proven more complicated to do so with.

 

7 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Hey, I wanted to apologize for my behaviour as well.

I came on really aggressively, and I’m not trying to make enemies even if it’s hard to tell. I think your goal to further newbie education and general education is noble, and even from the start I was saddened to hear about your hand. I think we’re reading from the same book even if not on the same specific page, and hope that you make good progress on your writing and training once you recover

Apology accepted, and no lasting harm done.

[Merkranire]

54 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

What's almost worse is that in the beginning of things it is far better not to max a mod out; the amount of endo required to get from rank 9 to 10 can could rank an entire second mod to rank 9. And two rank 8 or 9 mods will generally make a far bigger difference through at least the first half of the star chart—possibly longer—than one rank 10 and and one rank 0 will. Yet after a certain point, reaching breakpoints in stats becomes way more important than before, and max-ranking a specific mod can become more crucial to a build's effectiveness. But where that point is varies quite a bit, depending on the gear and mods involved.

Sure, if you've got the endo to max-rank something you have the freedom to use it effectively in more builds... but if you lack the endo (or the forma and potatoes to fit the extra drain, if needed), there's no simple guidance you can be given on when to prioritize max-ranking a given mod. And "well, it depends" is neither useful nor satisfying as an answer.

That's one of the things I was trying to boil down into a more easily understood form in the modding guide… and one of the topics that has proven more complicated to do so with.

Yeah. It took me ages to max out my Serration, and I’m only recently at a point now where even if I run low on Endo, just playing a little more and only sort of selling statues and dissolving mods properly replenishes my stock, though by this point it’s less crucial since I’ve got so many options.

Ensuring proper damage types might be a good start; every weapon and ability benefits from knowing what to shoot, the mods are a lot cheaper to level, and even if it means they’re doing more damage to certain enemies within the one faction and not a lot against others within the same faction, newbies can make up the difference with their other gear built to cover alternative damage types (personally I often start with specialising damage when considering what damage mods I’ll need for the content, just to make my gear serve certain roles in a fight; makes for more interesting gameplay to have to switch accordingly). And in general getting newbies familiar with damage types can be good with Simaris’ upgradeable scanner that shows what damage types enemies are weak to when pointed at them mid-mission, and getting into scanning enemies gives more choices in the Simulacrum to test against since they’ll be considering how to build in more ways than just whatever sits in way-higher content than what they’re doing and won’t always be able to just overpower the enemy’s mechanics and damage type weaknesses

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Well, I start from the beginning, maybe choose what I’m doing and how I want to do it or want to use a build I’ve made before, identify what I need in the first place and what helps or hinders the experience, figure out any synergies I may want (not a lot of synergy to be had if I bring some Meta AoE, and I’ve already got a heavy weapon for when things get hairy, though I’m not saying some Meta AoE is necessarily off the table either) or just jump in to learn potentially surprising new ones.

Sometimes I’m built for a certain range of content and I shift higher or lower than I normally would and some new kit dynamics may make themselves apparent due to the differing threat levels and TTKs. Sometimes I’m using a Steel Path build designed for Steel Path and thus I take it to Steel Path. Sometimes I just make a build where a particular piece of gear performs a certain way for a certain bit of content and adjust the rest of my kit accordingly since I may either need to rebuild a lower-level build or I have redundant amounts of power elsewhere I can replace with something else instead of just leaving a hole there.

Usually I’m careful about Forma investments since it becomes a specialisation system after enough of them and starts causing problems if I want to build a different way, though the upside is that I don’t need to sink all the forma into everything to have a good time; means I may have empty slots even though I’ve got no capacity, but I’ve already removed forma for getting in the way before, and I’m not someone who thinks the only thing worth chasing is power.

It’s not so simple as just throwing some random stuff on and expecting some fun gameplay, though there’s also no reason not to just try something wacky in the unlikely places

That doesnt answer what I asked, not one bit.

11 hours ago, Merkranire said:

 

Not gonna lie, that last part just undermined my impression of you. When we started talking, you were part of the community that failed me; you said things they do, did things they do, so I’m thinking you’re a duck.

Here’s an Argonak build I’d consider and have taken into at least the first round of Arbitrations. I can’t figure out Overframe so I’m just going to tell you; the gun’s got a potato, 3 V polarities, and a -, and has Serration, Stormbringer, and Hellfire.

That’s 5 slots (6 including the Exilus slot), 36 capacity, and an Arcane slot left over. It’s not the only way to build the gun for level 60 (I’m quite partial to raw Electric, myself, and the build is adjusted accordingly), and the amount of required firepower from mods shifts accordingly when you start using Arcanes, but it’s concise, does a job, and is understandable what that job is when you start shooting bad guys and why it’s suited to some factions but not others, so long as your newbies understand the fundamentals of damage types. Note that I would hesitate to use this build on my Switch since on console I need to be more overbuilt than I do on PC due to the survival acrobatics and precision aiming I can pull off on PC that I can’t do on Switch

And this post pretty much says that what you claimed earlier simply wasnt true. Since you claimed you made use of everything the game provides you in the game no matter if you do SC, SP or anything in between. This was in relation to me pointing out that you effectively had to strip to get lower content into an engaging state, and even doing so makes it near impossible for the early SC to become engaging.

Yet here you end up showing a build that isnt even a build, but a partial regular "slap on damage mods" build and nothing else. This is even though you claimed you like to use different builds and that the SC allowed for that while SP doesnt. How is your 3x damage mod Argonak on SC any different from a 8x damage mod Argonak used on SP? And why are you OK with downgrading outside of SP but not on SP to make things "engaging"? You know you can make a similar build for SP and leave some slots empty and still manage to get through SP right? You know, like when people level new weapons on SP instead of other places. Even Gyre's S#&amp;&#036;e signature gun could be leveled on SP with only a few mods allowed within a 30 capacity budget.

[Merkranire]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That doesnt answer what I asked, not one bit.

And this post pretty much says that what you claimed earlier simply wasnt true. Since you claimed you made use of everything the game provides you in the game no matter if you do SC, SP or anything in between. This was in relation to me pointing out that you effectively had to strip to get lower content into an engaging state, and even doing so makes it near impossible for the early SC to become engaging.

Yet here you end up showing a build that isnt even a build, but a partial regular "slap on damage mods" build and nothing else. This is even though you claimed you like to use different builds and that the SC allowed for that while SP doesnt. How is your 3x damage mod Argonak on SC any different from a 8x damage mod Argonak used on SP? And why are you OK with downgrading outside of SP but not on SP to make things "engaging"? You know you can make a similar build for SP and leave some slots empty and still manage to get through SP right? You know, like when people level new weapons on SP instead of other places. Even Gyre's S#&amp;&#036;e signature gun could be leveled on SP with only a few mods allowed within a 30 capacity budget.

My god, Ervin, you’re really living up to your “Rush through the game and then the game’s gone” impression I had of you. You’re so out of touch that you throw out leveling things in unbalanced Steel Path as the default instead of the result of specific considerations and being high enough MR. It’s not just the slots and capacity leftover on the gun for that level 60 content, you’ll note that the Warframe, secondary, companion, school, anything else hasn’t been chosen and customised either, also starting from the modless base and built according to the content being done and the goal that the player wants to achieve and any synergies they want to take advantage of.

And that’s not the only way to build the Argonak for level 60, and the game isn’t level 60 Arbitrations, just as it isn’t Steel Path, but there is a difference between what the two let us do though I don’t think you even know what the difference between level 140 and level 60 and level 40 is since you don’t seem too concerned with levels in the first place so long as everything gets squashed.

Every time you open your mouth, I’m blown away by how out of touch you are with anything, which I expected when you were living in builds that were Steel Path-ready before SP even dropped. Even though I was looking forwards to SP, not once did I look at the builds I wanted to take to it and think “This is a build that the game’s designed around”

Edited January 19 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

Oh S#&amp;&#036;, I meant

*clears throat*

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You know you can make a similar build for SP and leave some slots empty and still manage to get through SP right? You know, like when people level new weapons on SP instead of other places. Even Gyre's S#&amp;&#036;e signature gun could be leveled on SP with only a few mods allowed within a 30 capacity budget.

Right?? That’s why we need to have every piece of gear able to, from modless base and in any combination with no need for particular consideration just random combine, squash Steel Path; it’s the only way to get any sort of choice.

Ervin, you and I, we’re on the same wavelength. Siblings in arms, peas in a pod. 

We’re good friends, and I listen to my good friends, and my gameplay is getting kind of miserable at the moment while I listen to you, but I trust my good friends, and will just push on, because I either like pure grind or I hate it

Edited January 19 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Merkranire said:

My god, Ervin, you’re really living up to your “Rush through the game and then the game’s gone” impression I had of you. You’re so out of touch that you throw out leveling things in unbalanced Steel Path as the default instead of the result of specific considerations and being high enough MR. It’s not just the slots and capacity leftover on the gun for that level 60 content, you’ll note that the Warframe, secondary, companion, school, anything else hasn’t been chosen and customised either, also starting from the modless base and built according to the content being done and the goal that the player wants to achieve and any synergies they want to take advantage of.

And that’s not the only way to build the Argonak for level 60, and the game isn’t level 60 Arbitrations, just as it isn’t Steel Path, but there is a difference between what the two let us do though I don’t think you even know what the difference between level 140 and level 60 and level 40 is since you don’t seem too concerned with levels in the first place so long as everything gets squashed.

Every time you open your mouth, I’m blown away by how out of touch you are with anything, which I expected when you were living in builds that were Steel Path-ready before SP even dropped. Even though I was looking forwards to SP, not once did I look at the builds I wanted to take to it and think “This is a build that the game’s designed around”

Wow you have a hard time grasping points. It wasnt about the leveling part, it was about that SP can be done with a very limited amount of mods, so anyone can practically jump into and do SP without a massive investment in mods. Will it be as efficient as a maxed out build? No and it shouldnt, since that would render it pointless to progress.

Your Argonak isnt built, it's partially on the way towards a build, a simple damage build so far. A build that plays exactly the same no matter how high or low you push the damage and no matter which content you take it to, since in the end you shot stuff in a very basic way. Building it all out and then leaving the last slot for the Amalgam instead of another damage mod would lead to a unique build that plans on synergy with daggers and melee gameplay for instance, but you just have damage mods, nothing else. And your claim was earlier that SP prohibits you from "other" builds, while your "other" build here is just a half finished generic damage build.

17 hours ago, Merkranire said:

That’s why we need to have every piece of gear able to... squash Steel Path

We uhm dont though, since several of the things we have now were never available or even considered when SP released and we still did that content just fine with what older items allowed. And that was years and years ago, with no buffs to SP enemies implemented since then.

With the introduction of gun arcanes you can also use some of the most silly mod builds in SP successfully and efficiently since the arcanes bring enough damage for the gun to be overall vialble. As in me loving to run "terrible" Gas at times and do just fine even when I dont play someone like Hydroid that covers other damage types.