Universal incarnon

[TARINunit9]

9 hours ago, Hayrack said:

is not what I consider a "dedication" let alone "skill".

Ok there's two things going on here...

On one hand, if you are only talking mechanical skill, yes Warframe doesn't actually reward that. It only rewards prep time. You grind until the enemies throw themselves onto your sword and die for you. But unless you literally can't think for yourself and have copied literally everything from Google, you still had to learn how to prepare your weapons. Using Google to double-check your work is nothing to be ashamed of as long as your work was sincere before and after that

And secondly, I think you're overestimating how many people actually get the Manus hood ornament. Never forget the only perspective you have is your own -- it might be true anyone can put the grind in like you did (and that makes it feel less spectacular) but that doesn't mean everyone has. When I said 0.01%, I was probably high-balling it

[(PSN)Unstar]

I'm generally pretty anti-Riven, as I think it's a bummer to attempt to address balance issues between gear with double-randomized mods that most players don't have reliable access to.  That's why in 99.9% of cases, I don't use Rivens.

But if you find an under-performing weapon that you really and truly love, I agree that that's the time where Rivens are a good choice.  I did this with my Bo Prime Incarnon, and it helped turn an under-performing weapon into a reliable tool.  With the worst disposition possible, my Bo Riven in effect takes a single mod slot and jams 3 good mods into it.  Did the Riven make it as strong as my Riven-less meta weapons?  No.  But it's closed the gap enough that I don't feel like I'm at a meaningful disadvantage from using it, so I bring it to basically every mission and have myself a good time.

Now, will this work with Twin Vipers Wraith?  I'm not sure.  But because I want you to have a good time, I hope it will!

When rolling your weapon, one tip I have is this: don't make your goal be to get the perfect Riven that has the precise set of stats you want.  Instead, consider your Riven to be "done" when it has any 3 stats that you already use.  So for example, you're looking for punch-through, but if your Riven rolls any 3 stats that you already have modded onto your weapon — like +damage, +fire rate, and +an element that you use — then consider that good enough.  Now you can remove one of the mods you were already using to get one of those stats and replace it with a Punch-through mod.

Good luck, Tenno!

As for the actual universal Incarnon, I'm not a fan for reasons others have already said, so I wanted to make my focus giving this little piece of advice that might help.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

I would just request more incarnons or kuva/tenet versions for terrible weapons. 

Things like the viper/twin vipers are a perfect candidate.  A somewhat terrible weapon that could be good with the right stat tweaks. 

The real hurdle is the acquisition system.  Perhaps in the future they could have a more difficult mission you run with the weapon in question.  That rewards it's incarnon or upgraded version upon completion. (like a SP circuit type that adds less variables)

[Merkranire]

15 hours ago, SDGDen said:

hahano.

this kind of mindset is why TFO's per-second damage cap exists.

f*ck the powercreep, bring on the nerf bat. halve the damage of every single weapon in the game pretty please. reduce the effectiveness of base damage mods and multishot. bring back self-damage. 

 

and when all is said and done, remove the stupid 4x armor multiplier from steel path. so SP is just "level +100" without it actually being any easier than it is now. 

 

 

But the game doesn’t have any mechanics to speak of and we already have to utilise building certain ways and combining it in certain ways with content just to keep it that way!

At the moment we need to combine builds and content in order to squash the standard game’s balance and get our foot through the door of Steel Path, which from its start had been called Endgame by the players and articles and the general populace

The problem is that while Steel Path was always meant to be the default, it required ever narrower choice; we’d earn things that ultimately never got used. Like, we were already eschewing most choices, but then Steel Path is the next step. And if I’ve been taught anything, it’s that this game isn’t meant to have mechanics; they’re holdovers from the early days.

So solution; crank everything until it does Steel Path and we can shed unnecessary damage mods and use whatever weapons and builds we want. After all, the most choice happens when everything squashes everything else, and that’s what we’re already trying to build for but the game’s just getting in our way with its mechanics and engagement requirements and general game design at the moment

Edited January 9 by Merkranire

[TeaHawk]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

When rolling your weapon, one tip I have is this: don't make your goal be to get the perfect Riven that has the precise set of stats you want.  Instead, consider your Riven to be "done" when it has any 3 stats that you already use.

That's what I'm currently doing. I know it's merely impossible to get a perfect one. Howerver, I'd be happy to roll a combination of useful stats along with Punch Through. Unfortunately, I've been only having things like +Ammo Maximum and mixed with +PT rolls. It's a gamble... Will farm another warframe only to spend all creds on kuva.

[Xzorn]

8 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Alternate and less ambitious idea: I think giving most single target weapons innate PT or at least making it more easy to access through exilus or new dual mods would be swell.  It's not as ambitious as a universal Incarnon, but it also doesn't bring up as many issues like "Incarnon Sporelacer, cool cool cool".

 

Sadly Secondary weapons have always lacked in this area.
Primed Shred is an easy fix though Seeking Fury for Shotguns is harder to justify.

I never really minded much on pistols cuz they were / are?? still the best single target head-shot weapons and punch-through is rare for head-shots.
Until they fix the way 100%+ status scales body shot weapons are just meh. They should introduce a multiplier mod. Save the status weapons.

[Packetdancer]

6 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

And secondly, I think you're overestimating how many people actually get the Manus hood ornament. Never forget the only perspective you have is your own -- it might be true anyone can put the grind in like you did (and that makes it feel less spectacular) but that doesn't mean everyone has. When I said 0.01%, I was probably high-balling it

I would say that (prior to having to take a Warframe break this week due to hand surgery -- don't snap a ligament in your hand, folks) I saw the Manus sumdali fairly often at loading screens. Plus I know a number of people (myself included) who have it but decided the aesthetics were meh and swapped it back out, so who don't show up with the sumdali in loading screens.

But then I realized, I'm also skewing my own sample set a bit.

Much of what I was playing was the Cavia bounties, Steel Path content, Arbitrations, etc. Meaning I'm sort of selecting for a population who are at current endgame, and even there leaning towards the optional higher-difficulty stuff. So, yeah, it's not surprising the Manus sumdali would be more common in that particular sample set.

[TeaHawk]

I don't put that thing on my ship.

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, TeaHawk said:

Their gear is already broken so as the enemy scaling system. You can't fight this category of players and it's simply useless. Players not running for meta every second must not be punished because that one guy having fun nuking an entire room of lvl 9999 after he spent his entire life farming stuff in the game. This guy will find his way into nuking the room (or being proficient in any other category of the gameplay) eventually one way or another.

Come on!

This game is beyond balance for years now. Don't make it dull.

 

You'd be surprised actually.

As scaling increases the need to actually aim and play the game increases. There is/was no screen wide AoE and everyone in the group had to do their part or you'd fail. It's why I liked endurance runs so much. The game actually worked the way I felt it should. Sad it takes 4+ hours to get to that point.

Finding combos required other players to create real synergy not this nonsense with one frame DE calls synergy.

• 340% Power Nidus Link to an 14x Sonar Banshee while Frost guards them both.
• Trinity and Gara actually staying in the same room so the group can get 97.5% DR before Adaption or Armor.
• My favorite but lost was Saryn's Venom Dose Augment when it did Toxic. which added to Gas, Viral or Corrosive proc rates.
• Ember Fireball Frenzy with Accelerant in CPx4 making enemies take a stupid amount of extra fire damage from the whole group.
• Players actually picking weapons and frames to accomplish a goal. Something near dead now.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

8 hours ago, TeaHawk said:

Each gun getting its own Incarnon with specific perk-sets options for different play-styles and new ways of triggering the Incarnon form and Incarnon mods... That's how I see a perfect solution. But unfortunately I don't belive this will ever happen. And currently I'm stuck in this particular weapon progression. Some guns are boring to play not because they're not powerful enough but rather because they lack interesting mechanics.

 

Sure, and they could be very interesting, but also a hefty undertaking that would require resources and time towards it, that would invariably be taken from elsewhere, so as you say, probably not going to happen. I'm personally not opposed either, that would be fun, but I likewise don't see it happening. 

As far as lacking interesting mechanics, again, sure, but again, its quite subjective. As as is whats boring or not. Usually with such a wide selection, not all guns or Warframes are necessarily intended or designed to be as appealing and interesting to everyone, equally. Its like food, not everyone, has the same palettes, and even in the differences in preferences, some peoples palettes are larger than others. There is a lot to such things. What may be boring to some, won't be boring to others. What is considered a negative design aspect for one, might be a positive for someone else.

When it comes to weapons, I personally quite like variety, and diversity. Generally. I can like traditional bows like Daikyu, but also beam weapons like Quanta Vandal, Phantasma. I can like somewhat regular seeming assault rifle guns like Karak or Soma, to more futuristic seeming rifles like one that shoots out mini missiles aka Acceltra. To shotguns, which are probably generally my favourite, and so on. Even though i can also generally like all weapons, I still do have preferences too. Other people may categorise differently, as in they may have favourites, but also weapon classes they don't want to, or don't like using. I knew a person who considered all non big AOE weapons boring, given the type of game this is. Preferences are natural, as is wanting our preferences accommodated, but sometimes that can be tricky, as far as accommodating many different types of people. The changes some people may want to a "boring" weapon, may be why others enjoy that weapon. Even that though can be more nuanced and complicated as well though. 

Consider a weapon you like, thats not that popular, being dramatically altered, because someone who doesn't care about it, or use it anyway, wants it to be more like something they find more interesting, and already exists in the game. Again, not saying that, thats inherently wrong, but its the sort of consideration that is often apparent. There are already many Incarnon with polarised opinions and views about comparing different modes, and attitudes about which should be better, which stray too far from the original design, so on. 

[SDGDen]

11 hours ago, Merkranire said:

The problem is that while Steel Path was always meant to be the default, it required ever narrower choice; we’d earn things that ultimately never got used. Like, we were already eschewing most choices, but then Steel Path is the next step. And if I’ve been taught anything, it’s that this game isn’t meant to have mechanics; they’re holdovers from the early days.

So solution; crank everything until it does Steel Path and we can shed unnecessary damage mods and use whatever weapons and builds we want. After all, the most choice happens when everything squashes everything else, and that’s what we’re already trying to build for but the game’s just getting in our way with its mechanics and engagement requirements and general game design at the moment

the devs have literally said steel path *wasnt* the default and they wouldnt be balancing for steel path.

the whole point of steel path was an attempt at countering powercreep without nerfing items, because players seem to be allergic to nerfing items.

 

also, i'd highly recommend you go study the basics of game design, in particular game balance. 

[TeaHawk]

16 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Consider a weapon you like, thats not that popular, being dramatically altered, because someone who doesn't care about it, or use it anyway, wants it to be more like something they find more interesting, and already exists in the game.

The advantage of the Incarnon here is that it does not alter the basic weapon without player's consent.

[Merkranire]

11 hours ago, SDGDen said:

the devs have literally said steel path *wasnt* the default and they wouldnt be balancing for steel path.

the whole point of steel path was an attempt at countering powercreep without nerfing items, because players seem to be allergic to nerfing items.

 

also, i'd highly recommend you go study the basics of game design, in particular game balance. 

They failed pretty hard when players convinced each other it was the logical place to go as part of the famously linear progression that Warframe is known for but whoops! The game becomes more limited and less fun when you go there, so DE listened to the playerbase and introduced more powercreep to allow more players and choice into the part of the game we’re supposed to be in according to the wider community as we superglue damage and survival mods into whatever free slots we have.

Also balance is when I take what I earn and arrange it into ways to reach level cap; you can bet I was all over old Shieldgate builds. Doesn’t matter that on its own, Shieldgate is soundly designed and does its job of preventing oneshots while allowing for risk, I took it and warped its purpose and it was a balancing tactic.

 🤔 Come to think of it, DE should just do away with the limits of the mod system and apply the effects of any new mod we get for as long as we have that mod. Why we got limits anyways? I got mods I’d love to use to make builds, but when I use them the game gets hard and I have to do things like move and aim and watch enemy positioning and resource management because I had to sacrifice power to equip them. If DE just applied the effects all the time (turning negatives into a toggle because sometimes negatives for abilities are a good thing), I would be progressing linearly and the game would become what it was meant to be and what we’ve all wanted it to be

Edited January 10 by Merkranire

[SDGDen]

11 hours ago, Merkranire said:

They failed pretty hard when players convinced each other it was the logical place to go as part of the famously linear progression that Warframe is known for but whoops! The game becomes more limited and less fun when you go there, so DE listened to the playerbase and introduced more powercreep to allow more players and choice into the part of the game we’re supposed to be in according to the wider community as we superglue damage and survival mods into whatever free slots we have.

Also balance is when I take what I earn and arrange it into ways to reach level cap; you can bet I was all over old Shieldgate builds. Doesn’t matter that on its own, Shieldgate is soundly designed and does its job of preventing oneshots while allowing for risk, I took it and warped its purpose and it was a balancing tactic.

 🤔 Come to think of it, DE should just do away with the limits of the mod system and apply the effects of any new mod we get for as long as we have that mod. Why we got limits anyways? I got mods I’d love to use to make builds, but when I use them the game gets hard and I have to do things like move and aim and watch enemy positioning and resource management because I had to sacrifice power to equip them. If DE just applied the effects all the time (turning negatives into a toggle because sometimes negatives for abilities are a good thing), I would be progressing linearly and the game would become what it was meant to be and what we’ve all wanted it to be

i am so glad you are not part of the development team.

 

never go into game design, for the good of everyone involved. 

[Packetdancer]

12 hours ago, Merkranire said:

They failed pretty hard when players convinced each other it was the logical place to go as part of the famously linear progression that Warframe is known for but whoops! The game becomes more limited and less fun when you go there, so DE listened to the playerbase and introduced more powercreep to allow more players and choice into the part of the game we’re supposed to be in according to the wider community as we superglue damage and survival mods into whatever free slots we have.

Game balance is a delicate dance at the best of times; it isn't just the stereotypical scale where you make the two sides balance, but rather a scale with like 17 platters connected in a variety of different ways, some of which exist in higher dimensions that humans have trouble comprehending, much less perceiving.

Give flexibility and variety to gameplay? Some things are almost inevitably going to outperform others. Make everything perform exactly equally to avoid meta? Well, now everything feels homogenized and same-y. And that's just one consideration out of many!

As a Warframe example... the modding system in this game gives a level of depth and variety that I can find in few other games. This appeals to some of us who find our joy in theorycrafting and experimenting with builds, much like how some folks find joy in tinkering with cars. That's not the only way to play, and folks who don't find that joy in getting elbow-deep into the modding system are playing an equally valid way. But a non-zero amount of the game's player base is here in large part because it scratches that itch for us.

But that level of variety means there's likely to be a huge spread of variety in build effectiveness. I mean, I have builds I could take into normal pub play, and have like 2% of the actual kills ("I nuked a couple guys at the start") but like 70% of the total damage done. And you can certainly make a case that the power-creep has gotten out of hand—and heck, I would probably even agree—but I would argue the bigger problem is the power disparity. 

If I can hit two buttons on Kullervo and vaporize an entire room (and I very much can), any scenario presenting a challenge to that build is going to feel actively cruel—if not outright impossible—to a more casual player, who finds the modding system less a joy and more a thing they are periodically forced to engage with in order to continue being a bouncy robot space ninja. And it's easy to forget there are a lot of those folks.

My friend loves the actual gameplay of Warframe—the speed of movement, the game modes, the story—but the modding system actively causes her stress because she doesn't find the buildcrafting enjoyable, but she knows she needs to mod things to stay alive and be effective. She's someone who, to use my earlier metaphor, enjoys driving the cars a lot, but less so the tinkering with their innards. (She now just outsources her builds to me; she goes "Pax, help, I need to mod <whatever>," I tell her how to mod stuff, and she's much happier.)

Steel Path exists because the game absolutely should not be balanced around people like me. We are the lunatic fringe. We are also often very loud, so it is easy to forget we are probably the minority, but we are probably the minority. We see posts pop up of folks having trouble with the New War quest line because they're used to playing the game one way and what the New War asks of them isn't the stuff they actually play Warframe to enjoy!

Any content balanced for tinkerers and theorycrafters and such is going to be a downright miserable experience for the vast bulk of other players. We tinkerers take joy in breaking stuff, which is generally fine in a game like this where the modding system allows for that... but that also means if you balance the game around tinkerers, we will break the game, too.

Steel Path isn't "where you're supposed to be playing,” unless you are the aforementioned lunatic tinkerer fringe. The Steel Path is the room with padded walls you stick us crazy people in so we bounce around causing mayhem in there instead of breaking the rest of the game out here.

And that's just the game balance consideration of the modding system! There's still a whole pile of other things to think about in game balance.

Now, there's certainly an argument to be made that the power-creep is getting out of hand... but that's less easily handled than you might think. A live service game needs some sort of progression to let players feel like they're getting stronger, or at least more of some metric. The more things you introduce, the more toys we crazy folks have in our to box, and the more creative we can get in breaking things. (Do I need a Kullervo loadout who can vaporize a room with a melee attack? Of course not. Was it fun theorizing how that would work, then experimenting to see if I was right? Oh boy, was it ever!)

Nerf power on things, and players generally get unhappy; having things taken away—even very broken and potentially harmful things—does not often make players happy... plus, if you nerf stuff enough to depower the lunatics over here, you potentially end up depowering the normal players (which is usually not the goal). Cut down variety to remove the number of toys the crazy folks can crack open to try to turn into explosives, and you potentially homogenize some of the gameplay. Etc.

What you absolutely don't do with a power creep scenario is go "well we have a power creep problem... so I guess we should just surrender and give everyone infinite power!" Game balance is hard, but I feel like "don't do that" is low-hanging fruit on the game balance tree.

[Merkranire]

37 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

Game balance is a delicate dance at the best of times; it isn't just the stereotypical scale where you make the two sides balance, but rather a scale with like 17 platters connected in a variety of different ways, some of which exist in higher dimensions that humans have trouble comprehending, much less perceiving.

Give flexibility and variety to gameplay? Some things are almost inevitably going to outperform others. Make everything perform exactly equally to avoid meta? Well, now everything feels homogenized and same-y. And that's just one consideration out of many!

As a Warframe example... the modding system in this game gives a level of depth and variety that I can find in few other games. This appeals to some of us who find our joy in theorycrafting and experimenting with builds, much like how some folks find joy in tinkering with cars. That's not the only way to play, and folks who don't find that joy in getting elbow-deep into the modding system are playing an equally valid way. But a non-zero amount of the game's player base is here in large part because it scratches that itch for us.

But that level of variety means there's likely to be a huge spread of variety in build effectiveness. I mean, I have builds I could take into normal pub play, and have like 2% of the actual kills ("I nuked a couple guys at the start") but like 70% of the total damage done. And you can certainly make a case that the power-creep has gotten out of hand—and heck, I would probably even agree—but I would argue the bigger problem is the power disparity. 

If I can hit two buttons on Kullervo and vaporize an entire room (and I very much can), any scenario presenting a challenge to that build is going to feel actively cruel—if not outright impossible—to a more casual player, who finds the modding system less a joy and more a thing they are periodically forced to engage with in order to continue being a bouncy robot space ninja. And it's easy to forget there are a lot of those folks.

My friend loves the actual gameplay of Warframe—the speed of movement, the game modes, the story—but the modding system actively causes her stress because she doesn't find the buildcrafting enjoyable, but she knows she needs to mod things to stay alive and be effective. She's someone who, to use my earlier metaphor, enjoys driving the cars a lot, but less so the tinkering with their innards. (She now just outsources her builds to me; she goes "Pax, help, I need to mod <whatever>," I tell her how to mod stuff, and she's much happier.)

Steel Path exists because the game absolutely should not be balanced around people like me. We are the lunatic fringe. We are also often very loud, so it is easy to forget we are probably the minority, but we are probably the minority. We see posts pop up of folks having trouble with the New War quest line because they're used to playing the game one way and what the New War asks of them isn't the stuff they actually play Warframe to enjoy!

Any content balanced for tinkerers and theorycrafters and such is going to be a downright miserable experience for the vast bulk of other players. We tinkerers take joy in breaking stuff, which is generally fine in a game like this where the modding system allows for that... but that also means if you balance the game around tinkerers, we will break the game, too.

Steel Path isn't "where you're supposed to be playing,” unless you are the aforementioned lunatic tinkerer fringe. The Steel Path is the room with padded walls you stick us crazy people in so we bounce around causing mayhem in there instead of breaking the rest of the game out here.

And that's just the game balance consideration of the modding system! There's still a whole pile of other things to think about in game balance.

Now, there's certainly an argument to be made that the power-creep is getting out of hand... but that's less easily handled than you might think. A live service game needs some sort of progression to let players feel like they're getting stronger, or at least more of some metric. The more things you introduce, the more toys we crazy folks have in our to box, and the more creative we can get in breaking things. (Do I need a Kullervo loadout who can vaporize a room with a melee attack? Of course not. Was it fun theorizing how that would work, then experimenting to see if I was right? Oh boy, was it ever!)

Nerf power on things, and players generally get unhappy; having things taken away—even very broken and potentially harmful things—does not often make players happy... plus, if you nerf stuff enough to depower the lunatics over here, you potentially end up depowering the normal players (which is usually not the goal). Cut down variety to remove the number of toys the crazy folks can crack open to try to turn into explosives, and you potentially homogenize some of the gameplay. Etc.

What you absolutely don't do with a power creep scenario is go "well we have a power creep problem... so I guess we should just surrender and give everyone infinite power!" Game balance is hard, but I feel like "don't do that" is low-hanging fruit on the game balance tree.

What I’m hearing is that the point of the game is to get more power, but the power we’re forced to equip breaks the game.

I’m seeing an argument for the designers giving it up; I’m not about to accept any sort of nerf, self-imposed or otherwise. There may be a whole range of build options of varying levels of effectiveness, but unless they’re powerful they run counter to the point of the game and thus aren’t worthy of consideration.

So you see how my hands are tied? Tied in a way that the designers giving up will untie, because if they’re expecting me to actually use some garbage-ass builds, I’m going to tell them “I don’t think so”. The game would get in the way of my grind if I were to do that

Edited January 11 by Merkranire

[Packetdancer]

38 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

What I’m hearing is that the point of the game is to get more power, but the power we’re forced to equip breaks the game.

You are in no way forced to equip game-breaking levels of power.

I would lay strong odds that even a Netracell mission could be done with a frame and weapons didn't necessarily have every mod ranked to full; if my left hand wasn't in a cast, I would even go test that theory. (Though, if my left hand was not in a cast I would be playing the game anyway rather than hanging out on the forums.)

This is a good thing. The game should not require every player to dump six forma into Kullervo, six into Rauta, and another six into Corufell, or whatever. Yes, a minimum of investment in mods is necessary part a certain point, but I'm eighteen forma into that build there without even considering a secondary weapon; there is absolutely zero content on the star chart in the same neighborhood as content that requires that level of power or investment.

Heck, neighborhood, nothing; I'm not sure any star chart content is in the same time zone as content that would require that loadout.

If you feel that you are required to equip massive amounts of overwhelming power in order to tackle star chart content—the actual game content according to the devs, the content for which they supposedly try to balance the game—then I am genuinely curious both what star chart content you are doing, and what struggles you are having that make you feel you need that much power.

And if you mean "required" for Steel Path stuff... again, that's not the actual game content. Saying you need something for Steel Path and thus the base game requires you to equip that is like saying because a car can be used in NASCAR, you are forced to have a NASCAR-capable car to go to the supermarket for groceries. This is not the case; I promise you, a used and beat-up Toyota Corolla is capable of handling that errand.

And if you're saying "well, I can have a NASCAR-ready car to go to the supermarket, so obviously I want that since it's faster, so since I have that it should be the base assumption and we should expect everyone to do that," not everyone has that. Many players do not want to put in the time and effort to make a truly OP build; they've got something they find fun and are content to just enjoy their metaphorical beat-up Corolla! Balancing the game around the lunatics who will tune their everyday car like it needs to place in a NASCAR cup is just going to make the game miserable for the folks who don't find that part of the fun.

I may be one of the aforementioned lunatics, but I like to think I'm also self-aware.

Edited January 11 by Packetdancer

[Merkranire]

42 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

You are in no way forced to equip game-breaking levels of power.

I would lay strong odds that even a Netracell mission could be done with a frame and weapons didn't necessarily have every mod ranked to full; if my left hand wasn't in a cast, I would even go test that theory. (Though, if my left hand was not in a cast I would be playing the game anyway rather than hanging out on the forums.)

This is a good thing. The game should not require every player to dump six forma into Kullervo, six into Rauta, and another six into Corufell, or whatever. Yes, a minimum of investment in mods is necessary part a certain point, but I'm eighteen forma into that build there without even considering a secondary weapon; there is absolutely zero content on the star chart in the same neighborhood as content that requires that level of power or investment.

Heck, neighborhood, nothing; I'm not sure any star chart content is in the same time zone as content that would require that loadout.

If you feel that you are required to equip massive amounts of overwhelming power in order to tackle star chart content—the actual game content according to the devs, the content for which they supposedly try to balance the game—then I am genuinely curious both what star chart content you are doing, and what struggles you are having that make you feel you need that much power.

And if you mean "required" for Steel Path stuff... again, that's not the actual game content. Saying you need something for Steel Path and thus the base game requires you to equip that is like saying because a car can be used in NASCAR, you are forced to have a NASCAR-capable car to go to the supermarket for groceries. This is not the case; I promise you, a used and beat-up Toyota Corolla is capable of handling that errand.

And if you're saying "well, I can have a NASCAR-ready car to go to the supermarket, so obviously I want that since it's faster, so since I have that it should be the base assumption and we should expect everyone to do that," not everyone has that. Many players do not want to put in the time and effort to make a truly OP build; they've got something they find fun and are content to just enjoy their metaphorical beat-up Corolla! Balancing the game around the lunatics who will tune their everyday car like it needs to place in a NASCAR cup is just going to make the game miserable for the folks who don't find that part of the fun.

I may be one of the aforementioned lunatics, but I like to think I'm also self-aware.

Well why not give everyone a NASCAR-ready car by default?

Then we'd all be on the same page. It’s really annoying having to fight and invest and engage with the game and build system, just make absolute destruction and endless energy spam the default. You and I could be teaming up in Steel Path, building and playing as we want, treating it like the Dynasty Warriors horde shooter that Warframe is meant to be; those garbage-ass builds? They’re now powerful and worth considering!

I mean seriously, DE are gonna dump a bunch of power onto me and not expect me to use it? Goes against human nature. I can’t imagine any other way to use the components I’m earning except for more and more game-breaking power, and any other build is worthless if it doesn’t lend to the grind and satisfy my opportunity cost concerns. And all of that wouldn’t be a problem if the game just defaulted to how I’m currently building and playing, except for every build; Everything could be the right tool for the right job, and nothing would have any weaknesses that currently make them non-viable

Edited January 11 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

A universal incarnon wouldnt work. It would take just as much time to get a new one as it does now since each weapon would still need to be individually designed for their incarnon mode to work. The only difference would be that instead of having several rotations with weapons in the SP circuit rewards you'd have 2 Incarnon Genesis adapters per week that could go on any weapon out of those with Incarnon mode designed for them.

3 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Well why not give everyone a NASCAR-ready car by default?

Then we'd all be on the same page. It’s really annoying having to fight and invest and engage with the game and build system, just make absolute destruction and endless energy spam the default. You and I could be teaming up in Steel Path, building and playing as we want, treating it like the Dynasty Warriors horde shooter that Warframe is meant to be; those garbage-ass builds? They’re now powerful and worth considering!

I mean seriously, DE are gonna dump a bunch of power onto me and not expect me to use it? Goes against human nature. I can’t imagine any other way to use the components I’m earning except for more and more game-breaking power, and any other build is worthless if it doesn’t lend to the grind and satisfy my opportunity cost concerns. And all of that wouldn’t be a problem if the game just defaulted to how I’m currently building and playing, except for every build; Everything could be the right tool for the right job, and nothing would have any weaknesses that currently make them non-viable

Sounds like someone has made a complete 180 degree in their opinion. Wasnt your dislike for SP rooted in that it required you to build a certain way and it being "the place to be" according to "people" while you built differently on the SC? That you had to "sacrifice" in order to do SP? And now here you are saying quite the opposite. This after having claimed people like me never having experienced the full spectrum of the game due to only modding for the highest content and not making specific SC "builds".

[Merkranire]

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Sounds like someone has made a complete 180 degree in their opinion. Wasnt your dislike for SP rooted in that it required you to build a certain way and it being "the place to be" according to "people" while you built differently on the SC? That you had to "sacrifice" in order to do SP? And now here you are saying quite the opposite. This after having claimed people like me never having experienced the full spectrum of the game due to only modding for the highest content and not making specific SC "builds".

Pretty sure I kept telling you that I didn’t dislike SP, but nevermind.

What can I say?

I thought long and hard about what you said and decided you had a point. Grind is the most important thing. The game used to make sense, now it’s full of confusing decisions and questionable design under this new mindset. Builds that were designed to combine with content in engaging ways got binned; now if there’s anything left, then I’ve built wrong and am using bad builds and need to refine the build/loadout until it’s gone and the builds can be considered good.

And I want the game to be designed around the philosophy of “What game?”, like it has been for years and I just never knew since I was too busy playing it wrong.

We’re two peas in a pod now, Ervin. You helped me see the light and approach the game like you do, and now Steel Path is indeed the only place to be and there’s a certain criteria of builds I must follow

Edited January 11 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Pretty sure I kept telling you that I didn’t dislike SP, but nevermind.

What can I say?

I thought long and hard about what you said and decided you had a point. Grind is the most important thing. The game used to make sense, now it’s full of confusing decisions and questionable design under this new mindset. Builds that were designed to combine with content in engaging ways got binned; now if there’s anything left, then I’ve built wrong and am using bad builds and need to refine the build/loadout until it’s gone and the builds can be considered good.

And I want the game to be designed around the philosophy of “What game?”, like it has been for years and I just never knew since I was too busy playing it wrong.

We’re two peas in a pod now, Ervin. You helped me see the light and approach the game like you do, and now Steel Path is indeed the only place to be and there’s a certain criteria of builds I must follow

So you like SP but dislike that it "requires specific builds" and it is "the place to be" according to some? Since those two were your main points earlier. And the builds you speak of that were "designed to combine content in engaging ways" are still there, since it comes down to downgrading. Our power has been far above the content for years and years. I joined in 2017 and it was alerady like that. It was just that we didnt have content to utilize that gear in, so more things worked since the game was also such a push over experience.

Though for each new content addition, they've added more and more reason to use that old gear, or given it a point to exsist. Arcanes for instance were released ages ago, so were corrupted mods. But neither were really needed since the game was too simple. And there are other things added pre-SP that serve little point even in SP, like adaptation and rolling guard from Arbis.

And what specific build criterias must you follow? Are you listening to the crowd that must stack strength in every possible slot on to come out dealing overkill damage several times beyond what a mob can really take? Or the "armur bed, shelid onle wei!" crowd? Kinda like the people that followed level cap builds even though they never ran level cap endless then wondering why they always died even though they skipped the "bad health" and "bad armor" mods. And it isnt like SP forces you into using AoE since all it does is increase the efficiency of your run, which applies to all content in the game since we rarely need to kill single targets. So if you were fine running single target weapons elsewhere you can do so just the same in SP. Currently I'm pretty much just using Grimoire and melee, and then I carry a Torid just to build up Ceramic Dagger quickly when playing Kullervo, or if I get a weakpoint bounty in the labs on any frame.

[Merkranire]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you like SP but dislike that it "requires specific builds" and it is "the place to be" according to some? Since those two were your main points earlier. And the builds you speak of that were "designed to combine content in engaging ways" are still there, since it comes down to downgrading. Our power has been far above the content for years and years. I joined in 2017 and it was alerady like that. It was just that we didnt have content to utilize that gear in, so more things worked since the game was also such a push over experience.

Though for each new content addition, they've added more and more reason to use that old gear, or given it a point to exsist. Arcanes for instance were released ages ago, so were corrupted mods. But neither were really needed since the game was too simple. And there are other things added pre-SP that serve little point even in SP, like adaptation and rolling guard from Arbis.

And what specific build criterias must you follow? Are you listening to the crowd that must stack strength in every possible slot on to come out dealing overkill damage several times beyond what a mob can really take? Or the "armur bed, shelid onle wei!" crowd? Kinda like the people that followed level cap builds even though they never ran level cap endless then wondering why they always died even though they skipped the "bad health" and "bad armor" mods. And it isnt like SP forces you into using AoE since all it does is increase the efficiency of your run, which applies to all content in the game since we rarely need to kill single targets. So if you were fine running single target weapons elsewhere you can do so just the same in SP. Currently I'm pretty much just using Grimoire and melee, and then I carry a Torid just to build up Ceramic Dagger quickly when playing Kullervo, or if I get a weakpoint bounty in the labs on any frame.

I’m fine with SP requiring more-specific builds; it’s not like when I said “I’m fine with SP” I completely forgot that its purpose was to be the place to take our ever-more-specific builds that are minmaxed beyond the standard game, and it used to be even more limited and I was fine and in many ways preferred that. Why would a level 60 Arbitration build work in level 100+ SP? They look different and jumping between the two level ranges means I have a reason to rebuild and reconsider how I build when I do so instead of using the same build for both which eventually gets stale, and justifies my earning of new stuff like Arcanes which I can use in both content when I can bring more options to either and build in different ways for different experiences because of the difference in levels and modifiers.

oh, whoops, that was my old thinking, filled with nuance and ideas and understanding of why I built the way I did. I meant that I live in Steel Path now. Arbitration gets Steel Path builds all the time and that’s balanced building.

 

🤔 Criteria…. Come to think if it, what is your criteria? I was thinking META because anything else is a downgrade, which no thank you, not interested in self-nerfing. But you seem to be self-nerfing and downgrading, so I’m getting conflicting information.

I guess the criteria is to play like you, living in Steel Path and shunning anything that doesn’t let me do so, but I think I need clarification on what that is; in the past there wasn’t a single build or item or combination of anything I wouldn’t use, but that was because I simply wasn’t discerning enough and wasn’t cutting out the garbage, resulting in undermining the perceived value of new things I earn but it doesn’t matter because I know what’s good and most stuff aint good

edit: You got any Youtube videos I could watch?

Edited January 11 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Criteria…. Come to think if it, what is your criteria? I was thinking META because anything else is a downgrade, which no thank you, not interested in self-nerfing. But you seem to be self-nerfing and downgrading, so I’m getting conflicting information.

My criteria is "do enough" in the highest content available that I plan on playing. So since I at most run for 2h or so in endless SP survival, that is what I make sure my build can do, so I can decide to do that after having started an endless mission. And for me it practically comes down to the same builds I used in arbitrations, with the addition of weapon arcanes, shards, higher "rarity" mods and maybe some new arcanes that have released since then.

I pretty much aim for 2 things on my frames.

1. +strength to reach a breakpoint. If that breakpoint requires more than +100% strength I tend to not mod to hit that target. Like Hildryn that needs massive amounts of strength due to pillage starting at 25%.

2. +75% efficiency (or 90% if I plan on going sub 100% duration on a channel frame). Ignored on some frames like Hildryn and Lavos. Also with the introduction of Energy Nexus I've reduced efficiency on some frames and opted for a larger pool together with Nexus. Mostly a case if I also use Nourish on the frame. I simply like to cast abilities and get back to casting asap if I get drained.

Then outside of that it comes down to the needs of duration and range on the frame. And in some cases like Citrine I might skip strength in order to grab range since both stats help Fractured Blast scale in different ways to produce more orbs. Most of the frames I use for SP are also built for armor, unless it is someone like Protea with access to personal shield replenishment through skills. I used to run crazy strength on Rhino and Chroma, but have since dropped that down to +100% builds because you dont need more in the content I run on a regular basis. You can in the end not kill anything quicker than with 1 hit. 

Not sure where you see the conflicting information, since no one has implied you should go all out and overshoot the content. We are afterall just talking SP in general, not level cap or C+ for that matter (since that is optional). So if you plan to do up to say level 200 on a regular basis in SP, there is no point to build for levels above that. If they add higher mandatory content later on, like when Arbis released and were higher than SC and with its own rules, then there might be a reason to increase the power in your build since your current build ment for up to level 200 SP might not be enough.

[TeaHawk]

This is not about SP and difficulty only! It's more a QoL topic if you ask me.

Some weapons terribly lack one simple stat to make it perfect synergy, For instance Viper, my favorite weapon, terribly lacks punch through to benefit my precisce head shots in order to trigger Arcane Velocity and Skull Shotz. I can't sacrifice an entire mod slot for PT only. And I haven't got any useful riven after hundreds of rolls.

There's literally nothing I can do to get this gun any better without sacrificing a key element. The only hope I have is to get a riven, that will have PT and other useful stats (Multishot being first in the list). And that makes me sad. It's like an exhausted potential.

[Merkranire]

On 1/13/2024 at 12:00 AM, SneakyErvin said:

My criteria is "do enough" in the highest content available that I plan on playing. So since I at most run for 2h or so in endless SP survival, that is what I make sure my build can do, so I can decide to do that after having started an endless mission. And for me it practically comes down to the same builds I used in arbitrations, with the addition of weapon arcanes, shards, higher "rarity" mods and maybe some new arcanes that have released since then.

I pretty much aim for 2 things on my frames.

1. +strength to reach a breakpoint. If that breakpoint requires more than +100% strength I tend to not mod to hit that target. Like Hildryn that needs massive amounts of strength due to pillage starting at 25%.

2. +75% efficiency (or 90% if I plan on going sub 100% duration on a channel frame). Ignored on some frames like Hildryn and Lavos. Also with the introduction of Energy Nexus I've reduced efficiency on some frames and opted for a larger pool together with Nexus. Mostly a case if I also use Nourish on the frame. I simply like to cast abilities and get back to casting asap if I get drained.

Then outside of that it comes down to the needs of duration and range on the frame. And in some cases like Citrine I might skip strength in order to grab range since both stats help Fractured Blast scale in different ways to produce more orbs. Most of the frames I use for SP are also built for armor, unless it is someone like Protea with access to personal shield replenishment through skills. I used to run crazy strength on Rhino and Chroma, but have since dropped that down to +100% builds because you dont need more in the content I run on a regular basis. You can in the end not kill anything quicker than with 1 hit. 

Not sure where you see the conflicting information, since no one has implied you should go all out and overshoot the content. We are afterall just talking SP in general, not level cap or C+ for that matter (since that is optional). So if you plan to do up to say level 200 on a regular basis in SP, there is no point to build for levels above that. If they add higher mandatory content later on, like when Arbis released and were higher than SC and with its own rules, then there might be a reason to increase the power in your build since your current build ment for up to level 200 SP might not be enough.

Hmmmm. I wanna future-proof myself for mandatory content like Steel Path, like you did before Steel Path came along.

Come to think of it, how do you decide you even have a balanced build? You said at one point in time that you’re using balanced builds, but that was for Steel Path, which isn’t balanced. It’s one thing to overbuild for content and it’s easy enough to do so long as you’re fine with narrowing your range of options the higher you need to offset yourself compared to the level you’re doing, it’s another to determine whether you’re actually built in a balanced way for the content you’re doing

edit: I’m not interested in being balanced myself, mind you, since that’s self-nerfing, but I’m still not quite sure how you determine when you’re built for Enough. It also kind of sounds like you then live in your builds, which is perfect because I hated having to think about how I’m going to change according to what I’m doing and how I wanted to play

Edited January 14 by Merkranire