Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[darklord122]

35 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Consideration is when you don’t take a nuke build, thinking you’re doing everyone a favour by hogging all the game while proclaiming and assuming that everyone wants to play like you, into a multiplayer match.

I’m contributing, I’m doing my part, others get their chance to their part. If I went and built to minimise the game as much as possible as effectively as possible, would you seriously herald me as a hero and as being considerate?

You know that thing where people wonder why the game’s not got a lot of gameplay and that DE don’t know anything about balance and that you better like cookie-clicker gameplay or the game’s not for you? You can do that on your own in solo, don’t force it on those around you

 

By doing your part you mean non-stop slogging through the mission to be at level while the rest more than likely pick up the slack, Seeing as its the apparent majority that build higher than you. Thus being inconsiderate towards your fellow teammates as they have objectives they want to do at the time they want and you may or may not be hindering that.
You going into an arbitration only to stop short and leave the rest of your teammates behind sure is considerate of you, Since you are not built for endless.

Must feel considerate for the others in Defense missions or other activities that incrementally increase in level where when your build falls off your part as a teammate slows down and either you will be reduced to not being able to contribute or you leave, Leaving them with the same result.

Those arbitrations where everyone farms the vitus essence? Must feel good for those teammates to lose someone as soon as the enemies scale a bit too high. And god forbid they build to continue at higher levels of enemies we cant have that. Thats inconsiderate.

Its so inconsiderate of high level players to be able to adapt to any mission and kill any enemy they are prepared for.
Must be so inconsiderate to have a warframe that can armor strip basically every enemy instantly, Those teammates sure wanted those enemies to have armor, By god it must feel bad to kill those easier.
Giving everyone infinite energy? Can't have that would make things to easy. We have to be considerate after all.
Whats this, Giving everyone overguard? Well that makes it so enemies aren't on even ground with us thus trivializing survival. Dammit that's so unfair for a player to be able to continue for way longer in the mission.
If teammates are struggling with eximus units its gotta be inconsiderate of the high end player to mow that down. No no let that eximus live for another 10 minutes that sure shows him.
Whats this? Giving everyone viral thus increasing their damage output? Well cant have that we must be built for the level so dealing damage past that is unfair.

Damn high end players sure suck, When one of these things happen which they do frequently due to the high saturation of warframes they are just the worst players known to man.
And sure, Negative situations happen frequently, But boy is it easy to ignore everything else they put out on the table. And that anyone other than high end players also can do.

Nuke builds are an outlier that alot of people don't like which was the main point of the thread, Many of who have been opposed to your view have been opposed to them as well including me. We've already established that some of them could use tuning.

You have alot of variables of being considerate but you've only focused on one that when faced with most situations can be quite inconsiderate towards others. Because I do not believe for a single second that one of those variables have not applied to you with the way you have built yourself and choose to actively do throughout every mode.
 

27 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Literal nonsense. Please, Ervin, quote me where I suggested this. I didn't and you know it. You're just making S#&$ up.

From what I saw thats not him quoting you or suggesting you said anything, He was making an example of the consequence of the hypothetical changes he was responding to you with.

Edited February 11 by darklord122

[PublikDomain]

18 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

From what I saw thats not him quoting you or suggesting you said anything, He was making an example of the consequence of the hypothetical changes he was responding to you with.

Which is why I called it nonsense. Why would any of the things he suggest need to happen? How is any of that a realistic "consequence" of balancing weapons? I'm certainly not talking about things like that, that's for sure. It's like we're talking about Vacuum and someone busts in screaming WELL WHAT IF THEY MAKE KUBROWS NOT HAVE FUR ANYMORE??? DID YA THINK OF THAT!?!? Nevermind hyperbole, it's straight up hysterics.

Edited February 11 by PublikDomain

[darklord122]

21 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is why I called it nonsense. Why would any of the things he suggest need to happen? How is any of that a realistic "consequence" of balancing weapons? I'm certainly not talking about things like that, that's for sure. It's like we're talking about Vacuum and someone busts in screaming WELL WHAT IF THEY MAKE KUBROWS NOT HAVE FUR ANYMORE??? DID YA THINK OF THAT!?!?

The only realistic thing I can suggest he meant is that if weapon A dealt 100 damage but has this perk that allows for a further increase, But weapon B also deals the same damage but fundamentally has a worse perk pool for it it would never be used. Thus if we just made the weapons deal the same damage that would solve that problem.
But then the problem changes to "Why should I use weapon A or weapon B if they just do the same thing. Thus weapon A or B could just be skins for one singular weapon type.
So if all rifles deal the same damage, Just have one rifle and the rest be cosmetic.
Same for beams, Shotguns, Pistols, Melee and all their subsequent types.
But that is the most unlikely thing to happen.


However the perk option would be a very realistic case seeing as In destiny those weapons work on the very same system you advocate for but there are problems.
If this pistol (A) has this perk pool that makes enemies easier to kill, But this pistol (B) has a far worse perkpool with not many of the same benefits. Thus I shall use A.
B then gets underutilized. Then they add more weapons. And more. And more. And it spirals to where hundreds of weapons now get underutilized due to minor changes in perks and stats and so they have to be reworked.

But then the issues arise again. Its an endless loop Destiny has been struggling with for over 10 years at this point by trying to put everyone on the same baseline which has not really worked too well. Everyone prefers the best weapon of the weapon type they want thus everything else gets underutilized and you cant have every weapon be same in terms of damage nor perks because then the other weapon variables are also useless when someone just picks whichever.

Then there are over the top weapons like exotics, That face the same issue but they have "unique" attributes, Some of those attributes either comes out too strong or are too niche to use, And some normal weapons trump over exotics thus making exotics feel pointless. We can compare it to warframes weapons that have unique perks or alternate fires. They would be reduced to gimmicks of which people would choose the better options.

That was my point originally as well as Warframe probably would face the same problem. People go for stats and efficiency over everything else and as a consequence even more weapons get underutilized, Warframe has the same issue but at the very least you can mitigate by building the weapon up to be better.  Most other options don't let you do that, As I said the entire system of Destiny 2 is a good example to show. Its the biggest show of flat balance but the issues are very prevalent.

I however don't call Destiny's devs bad at balancing towards what they want, Its just that keeping an equal balance that everyone is happy with is very difficult and negative things will happen whether one wants it or not. Hell Destiny also has the enemy killing issue there as well.

But im not gonna continue to argue towards either, I made my points and Im sticking by them as I already stated earlier on one of your other posts.

Hope the explanation cleared up what he meant, Its at-least my interpretation of it.

Edited February 11 by darklord122

[Berzerkules]

2 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Hold up… so all of that “We shouldn’t be OP” wasn’t a choice, but the fact that they can’t build a gun correctly?

No, this is absurd, I thought you were simply nerfing yourself for the sake of fun. Just do what I accidentally did: Equip a dragon key that reduces your damage then completely forget you ever equipped it. 

I totally forgot to unequip extinguished dragon key after running vaults a few years ago. I ran it for like a month before I noticed.

Probably didn't help that I rename weapons after dragon keys so randoms in pubs tell me that I 'm still running keys. It's stupid but i find it funny.

I actually lvl capped Nyx with it equipped.🤣

Spoiler

 

 

[Arbitrary]

3 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I actually lvl capped Nyx with it equipped.🤣

It's far less impressive when you realize that all* CO-type effects are unaffected by the Extinguished Key.

[Merkranire]

38 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

By doing your part you mean non-stop slogging through the mission to be at level while the rest more than likely pick up the slack, Seeing as its the apparent majority that build higher than you. Thus being inconsiderate towards your fellow teammates as they have objectives they want to do at the time they want and you may or may not be hindering that.
You going into an arbitration only to stop short and leave the rest of your teammates behind sure is considerate of you, Since you are not built for endless.

Must feel considerate for the others in Defense missions or other activities that incrementally increase in level where when your build falls off your part as a teammate slows down and either you will be reduced to not being able to contribute or you leave, Leaving them with the same result.

Those arbitrations where everyone farms the vitus essence? Must feel good for those teammates to lose someone as soon as the enemies scale a bit too high. And god forbid they build to continue at higher levels of enemies we cant have that. Thats inconsiderate.

Its so inconsiderate of high level players to be able to adapt to any mission and kill any enemy they are prepared for.
Must be so inconsiderate to have a warframe that can armor strip basically every enemy instantly, Those teammates sure wanted those enemies to have armor, By god it must feel bad to kill those easier.
Giving everyone infinite energy? Can't have that would make things to easy. We have to be considerate after all.
Whats this, Giving everyone overguard? Well that makes it so enemies aren't on even ground with us thus trivializing survival. Dammit that's so unfair for a player to be able to continue for way longer in the mission.
If teammates are struggling with eximus units its gotta be inconsiderate of the high end player to mow that down. No no let that eximus live for another 10 minutes that sure shows him.
Whats this? Giving everyone viral thus increasing their damage output? Well cant have that we must be built for the level so dealing damage past that is unfair.

Damn high end players sure suck, When one of these things happen which they do frequently due to the high saturation of warframes they are just the worst players known to man.
And sure, Negative situations happen frequently, But boy is it easy to ignore everything else they put out on the table. And that anyone other than high end players also can do.

Nuke builds are an outlier that alot of people don't like which was the main point of the thread, Many of who have been opposed to your view have been opposed to them as well including me. We've already established that some of them could use tuning.

You have alot of variables of being considerate but you've only focused on one that when faced with most situations can be quite inconsiderate towards others. Because I do not believe for a single second that one of those variables have not applied to you with the way you have built yourself and choose to actively do throughout every mode.
 

From what I saw thats not him quoting you or suggesting you said anything, He was making an example of the consequence of the hypothetical changes he was responding to you with.

You don’t know what you’re talking about because even when you tried the alternative, you immediately dismissed it instead of exploring it!

Stop trying to lecture me on consideration when most of your points have been how much free rein you’ve got, when the thing I’ve been saying is “Yes, Free Rein, with consideration when you jump into someone else’s game”, which you argue against at every turn until you think you’ve got some kind of leg to stand on when you introduce notions like efficient grind which is already a #*!%ing conflicting motivation addressable by a filter.

Make as many examples as you want, you know jack all because the only consideration you know is whether people align with your motivation or don’t; you’re glad when they align, you don’t reconsider what you’re doing when they don’t. That’s not consideration, that’s at best simply not considering at all, at worst actively malicious. And when I’m built to enable the gameplay of myself and others and the content a chance to breathe and I’m slowing you down if I’m even slowing you down while you cry about it because the game’s a smidge harder if even that because you sure as hell aren’t relying on anyone else, I’ll try and speed up to cater to you if not drop out!

Don’t you talk to me about consideration, the only thing you can draw upon is your own perspective of treating other players and multiplayer as a necessary evil

[darklord122]

14 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

You don’t know what you’re talking about because even when you tried the alternative, you immediately dismissed it instead of exploring it!

Stop trying to lecture me on consideration when most of your points have been how much free rein you’ve got, when the thing I’ve been saying is “Yes, Free Rein, with consideration when you jump into someone else’s game”, which you argue against at every turn until you think you’ve got some kind of leg to stand on when you introduce notions like efficient grind which is already a #*!%ing conflicting motivation addressable by a filter.

Make as many examples as you want, you know jack all because the only consideration you know is whether people align with your motivation or don’t; you’re glad when they align, you don’t reconsider what you’re doing when they don’t. That’s not consideration, that’s at best simply not considering at all, at worst actively malicious. And when I’m built to enable the gameplay of myself and others and the content a chance to breathe and I’m slowing you down if I’m even slowing you down while you cry about it because the game’s a smidge harder if even that because you sure as hell aren’t relying on anyone else, I’ll try and speed up to cater to you if not drop out!

Don’t you talk to me about consideration, the only thing you can draw upon is your own perspective of treating other players and multiplayer as a necessary evil

Ive dismissed your way of building, Not others. There is a difference.

As your way has just shown you to be entitled, Belittle other peoples ways of building and not considering that your way of playing with someone is from anothers perspective of you not keeping up with the others. Thus showing inconsideration to the others.

So id rather not take build advice from someone who has shown nothing but hostility and ego, Belittles everyone else playstyle but yours if it marks a hint of over performance or future thinking of the mission at hand, Has lied about their build in the cover of "sarcasm" and goes in with builds that fundamentally show underperformance in a mission but somehow is nothing noteworthy as its considerate to leave early to change your build and leave everyone else hanging and subsequently doing that for every weapon, warframe, mission and mode.

So I bid you adieu. We have nothing more to discuss you an I. As hilarious as it was.

Edited February 11 by darklord122

[Berzerkules]

1 minute ago, Arbitrary said:

It's far less impressive when you realize that all* CO-type effects are unaffected by the Extinguished Key.

That was also before melee changes as well.

Afaik CO still applied at full effect but it was based off of the 25% base damage?

Doesn't really matter either way, Not really impressive to lvl cap anyways, it's more of how long are you willing to play a single mission type of thing.

[darklord122]

2 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

That was also before melee changes as well.

Afaik CO still applied at full effect but it was based off of the 25% base damage?

Doesn't really matter either way, Not really impressive to lvl cap anyways, it's more of how long are you willing to play a single mission type of thing.

Honestly forgot about the CO thing lol. Damn.

Edited February 11 by darklord122

[Arbitrary]

Just now, Berzerkules said:

That was also before melee changes as well.

Afaik CO still applied at full effect but it was based off of the 25% base damage?

No, it ignored the Extinguished Key even before that.

[PublikDomain]

39 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

"Why should I use weapon A or weapon B if they just do the same thing. Thus weapon A or B could just be skins for one singular weapon type.

If you really believe this, than what about Warframes? People often say that all Warframes are viable. Does that make all Warframes just skins for one singular Warframe? Clearly, no.

And why use Weapon A or Weapon B? Simple: because you like Weapon A or Weapon B more. Is that not enough of a reason? It's really not that complicated. Just use what you like. Maybe you like a burst fire gun? Maybe you like a spooling gun? Maybe you like bows? Maybe you like projectiles? Maybe you like beams? Maybe you like shotguns. Maybe you like how a specific weapon looks, or you like how a specific weapon sounds. They're all different and play different and appeal to different preferences, and it's for that reason that they should also all be good. Then you'd be free to use anything you want, whenever and wherever you want to use it. What is so wrong about that?

Compare that to what we have now. This...

39 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

If this pistol (A) has this perk pool that makes enemies easier to kill, But this pistol (B) has a far worse perkpool with not many of the same benefits. Thus I shall use A.
B then gets underutilized. Then they add more weapons. And more. And more. And it spirals to where hundreds of weapons now get underutilized due to minor changes in perks and stats and so they have to be reworked.

39 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Then there are over the top weapons like exotics, That face the same issue but they have "unique" attributes, Some of those attributes either comes out too strong or are too niche to use, And some normal weapons trump over exotics thus making exotics feel pointless.

... is word for word the game we have today.

For example, the Carmine Penta has a far worse "perkpool" with not many of the same benefits compared to the Kuva Zarr. Thus you shall use the Kuva Zarr and the Carmine Penta goes underutilized. It's one of the least-used weapons in the game. Then they add more weapons. And more. And it has already spiraled to the point where hundreds of weapons already get underutilized due to the massive disparity in perks and stats and so they have to be reworked. And even though both of these weapons are "exotics", one comes out too strong and the other is too niche to use. And even some normal weapons still trump the Carmine Penta, making it feel pointless.

And this isn't even up for debate, DE has released the raw statistics for the last four years telling every single one of us the realities of the current status quo:

Which has been the same story since 2020:

Spoiler

You seem to understand that this is a bad thing, but what you're talking about has already come to pass and it's because weapons aren't equal. Why would you use Weapon B today if it's vastly inferior to A? Your only realistic choice is A. Either use A or fall behind and be useless. Maybe that's fine for all the Weapon A players, but it sucks for anyone who likes Weapon B.

If you're genuinely concerned about this then you really need to do some deep self-reflection and fully consider the game we have today.

39 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

But that is the most unlikely thing to happen.

It's so unlikely it's pointless to even entertain the thought. There's no reason for it, so why be scared of it?

Edited February 11 by PublikDomain

[darklord122]

5 minutes ago, Arbitrary said:

No, it ignored the Extinguished Key even before that.

The key doesn't apply to the mods Concealed Explosive and Thunderbolt as well.

[darklord122]

40 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

If you really believe this, than what about Warframes? People often say that all Warframes are viable. Does that make all Warframes just skins for one singular Warframe? Clearly, no.

And why use Weapon A or Weapon B? Simple: because you like Weapon A or Weapon B more. Is that not enough of a reason? It's really not that complicated. Just use what you like. Maybe you like a burst fire gun? Maybe you like a spooling gun? Maybe you like bows? Maybe you like projectiles? Maybe you like beams? Maybe you like shotguns. Maybe you like how a specific weapon looks, or you like how a specific weapon sounds. They're all different and play different and appeal to different preferences, and it's for that reason that they should also all be good. Then you'd be free to use anything you want, whenever and wherever you want to use it. What is so wrong about that?

Compare that to what we have now. This...

... is word for word the game we have today.

For example, the Carmine Penta has a far worse "perkpool" with not many of the same benefits compared to the Kuva Zarr. Thus you shall use the Kuva Zarr and the Carmine Penta goes underutilized. It's one of the least-used weapons in the game. Then they add more weapons. And more. And it has already spiraled to the point where hundreds of weapons already get underutilized due to the massive disparity in perks and stats and so they have to be reworked. Even though both weapons are "exotics", one comes out too strong and the other is too niche to use. And even some normal weapons still trump the Carmine Penta, making it feel pointless.

What you're talking about has already come to pass, and it's because weapons aren't very equal. Why would you use Weapon B today if it's vastly inferior to A? Your only realistic choice is A. Either use A or fall behind and be useless. Maybe that's fine for all the Weapon A players, but it sucks for anyone who likes Weapon B. If you're genuinely concerned about this then you really need to do some deep self-reflection.

It's so unlikely it's pointless to even entertain the thought. There's no reason for it, so why be scared of it?

I think you misunderstood the first point a bit. Its not about Viable its about Equalization.
As in an example if two pistols both did 400 points of damage and nothing else then why have two different pistols if they fundamentally are just the exact same?
At that point one or the other can just be a subsequent skin as if not it only serves to bloat the game with weapons that fundamentally don't need to exist outside of skins.
So if all bows work the same, Just have all bows be one bow and the others as skins.

Same with shotguns, Pistols and the like. While it will be different if they have differing sub types the point was just if they are exactly the same then why have both at all atleast with the same weapon type.
It would also raise the good point of why have a wraith version of a weapon if its base counterpart is just the same. Or Kuva, Tenet, Prisma, vandal, carmine etc if no other weapon excels over other variants.
Warframes fundamentally are different due to the different unique abilities and passives while still having its underutilized versions its not the same.

And while warframe weapons and destiny weapons have similarities they are still functioning differently.
Wraith, Vandal and Carmine work differently as they do not work on perks they work on a differing stat distribution from its normal counterpart.

While a pistol in Destiny can look something like: Column 1 increases weapon damage when getting headshots, Column 2 increases reload when emptying the magazine. And
subsequent subcolumns under those with niches such as: Kills spawn a pillar of ice that can explode when shot.
Then have attachment columns that affect stats.
Thus the ones worse off get left behind same as warframe weapons and so forth. And then more gets added and more gets left behind its an endless cycle.
Warframe weapons have unique effects on some but not all weapons and so its not fundamentally the same.

And that would be the most likely outcome for warframe if you where to compress all weapons to do the same as that is what destiny builds itself on its just that the perk rotations make it unique. But they still face the same issues. There arent really many other solutions.

Problems with warframe weapons as well is if we have all weapons do the same but lets say Pistol A has a better unique perk then pistol B will be abandoned no matter if it dealt the same damage as long as pistol A did it better.

They also tried to fix said issue with power levels to have all enemies be one powerlevel and you only became at the same effectiveness if you worked up that powerlevel by grinding weapons with higher powerlevels and armor. Its not a stat its a form of level cap.
While it works the community has long since gotten tired of that formula as it only serves to limit the player when you hit the same cap thus stagnating any growth or make the player weak when the cap is raised, Even going so far as making the community rejoice when the cap isnt increased for a season. It got and still gets very stale.

And well with this we unfortunately have 2 games with similar design philosophies that both have been unable to fix this problem
Warframe works on freeflowing builds but weapons get unbalanced and left behind, Destiny works on rigid stat distribution perks and equalization but weapons get unbalanced and left behind.

Its a problem of Uniqueness and Equal stats cant coexist because if everything is the same then while you have constant balance nothing will feel worth to work for or can just be skins for weapons of the same subtype,  or if you go for Uniqueness between weapons things will feel worth to work for but other things will also get left behind.

As of that point I feel like while it can be balanced its a fundamental issue that can never really be fixed. People better than both of us work for both of these games and an equilibrium can never and have never been found. Id say that speaks a lot for itself personally and I think we just gotta accept that everything cant just be perfectly balanced and things will get left behind and then subsequently lifted up later on, Its a thing in most if not all games with differing weapons and other items.

Edited February 11 by darklord122

[ECCHOSIERRA]

22 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

If you really believe this, than what about Warframes? People often say that all Warframes are viable. Does that make all Warframes just skins for one singular Warframe? Clearly, no.

And why use Weapon A or Weapon B? Simple: because you like Weapon A or Weapon B more. Is that not enough of a reason? It's really not that complicated. Just use what you like. Maybe you like a burst fire gun? Maybe you like a spooling gun? Maybe you like bows? Maybe you like projectiles? Maybe you like beams? Maybe you like shotguns. Maybe you like how a specific weapon looks, or you like how a specific weapon sounds. They're all different and play different and appeal to different preferences, and it's for that reason that they should also all be good. Then you'd be free to use anything you want, whenever and wherever you want to use it. What is so wrong about that?

Compare that to what we have now. This...

... is word for word the game we have today.

For example, the Carmine Penta has a far worse "perkpool" with not many of the same benefits compared to the Kuva Zarr. Thus you shall use the Kuva Zarr and the Carmine Penta goes underutilized. It's one of the least-used weapons in the game. Then they add more weapons. And more. And it has already spiraled to the point where hundreds of weapons already get underutilized due to the massive disparity in perks and stats and so they have to be reworked. And even though both of these weapons are "exotics", one comes out too strong and the other is too niche to use. And even some normal weapons still trump the Carmine Penta, making it feel pointless.

And this isn't even up for debate, DE has released the raw statistics for the last four years telling every single one of us the realities of the current status quo:

Which has been the same story since 2020:

  Hide contents

You seem to understand that this is a bad thing, but what you're talking about has already come to pass and it's because weapons aren't equal. Why would you use Weapon B today if it's vastly inferior to A? Your only realistic choice is A. Either use A or fall behind and be useless. Maybe that's fine for all the Weapon A players, but it sucks for anyone who likes Weapon B.

If you're genuinely concerned about this then you really need to do some deep self-reflection and fully consider the game we have today.

It's so unlikely it's pointless to even entertain the thought. There's no reason for it, so why be scared of it?

I remember when this game called "destiny 2" launched. And it seemed like Bungie had intentionally designed the weapons to all be about equal with eachother. (With very few exceptions).

Something that, a lot of people thought they wanted. Until they got it. Then people slowly but surely realized that all the weapons basically blended together into a congealed blob of mediocrity.

 

Ultimately DE can either make every weapon about the same power level, but, then whats the point. Everything's the same. 

[Darkbring]

On 2024-01-20 at 12:38 AM, Zinxori- said:

Say you got yourself a shiny new Gotva Prime from the Twitch Prime rewards, and you were itching to try it out in a mission. You pull up a Exterminate Fissure mission on Public matchmaking, just to increase the chances of a good reward. However, inevitably, and as many of you witnessed I'm sure whether you've been playing for 5 days or 2 weeks, that IDIOTS with no consideration for the others in the squad, will bring some ridiculous "nuke build" to Exterminate mission and blast all the enemies to hell in like 2-3 casts, and the mission is over before you even aimed up your weapon.

To some this is probably fine, and I'll sound like a complainer, but at MR27 and playing since 2015, I've seen every decent "nuke build" from Mirage Simulor to stuff like Saryn 4th spam in the current age. In things like Defense missions where the time to finish can go up due to enemies being spread out everywhere, using a wide-range, powerful nuking setup is ABSOLUTELY VALID AND UNDERSTANDABLE. But in a simple Axi Exterminate mission??? C'mon let me just shoot my Gotva and leave happy. I know I cannot be the only player who feels this way, but I'm probably one of few who would actually make a whole forum post about it. I hope this reaches players and that it generates a healthy discussion on why Nuke Builds should be UNACCEPTABLE in a simple mission like an Exterminate. Have respect for your fellow Tenno and LET THEM PLAY THE GAME TOO, or you'll risk stepping on someone's toes, even if you don't know it, or didn't intend it that way.

 

That's a you problem. I wonder what the hell you were thinking, if you were thinking at all, going into a farming fissure to play with a new single target gun? You do understand that people go to these fissures to FARM as quickly as possible. And here you come in, whining literally for no reason. Oh no, you cant farm effectively and play around with a new gun at the same time. What a tragedy. It's not like literally every MMO ever makes you pick between one and the other.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

25 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But how does it create a broader range of end game options? Having vertical power bands by definition creates a narrower range.

The CURRENT progression in most games, including Warframe, with vertical progression, produces that effect... because they don't continue the progression path for each unique weapon effect/alt fire/ what have you...  Warframe has curbed it a bit, at least in the melee category.

What I propose, is a system that creates more of a tree of weapons.
We already have Mastery Rank separations for weapons in the game. I'd say we would create enough weapon tiers to match the planetary enemy level tiers. A weapon tree wouldn't have to have a representative in each tier, but should advance along the tree, with at least one end-game variety either in the top, or just-below-top tier as the goal.

Currently, we have an established system of "base weapon" (existing in an undefined strata of those levels) and Prime or Variant upgrade (ranging from Primes to Syndicates to Lich/Sisters, and now Incarnon systems.) These upgraded weapons don't always place them in "High Level weapons" or "End Game weapons" territory, however. Some are just "side-grades" that are not very popular, overall.

My concept boils down to roughly these tiers (broken up by the existing tier reward breakdowns roughly taken from mission levels on the wiki):
Training weapons, Low level weapons (Enemy Levels 1-25), Mid Level weapons (Enemy Levels 21-36), High level weapons (Enemy Levels up to 60), End Game weapons (designed for Archon hunts, Steel Path, etc)  (and another tier if they add something beyond the power of Steel Path.)

My proposed system follows the path Melee already took, but isn't universally implemented across all melee types, and isn't really a thing among guns.

 

* Newbie MK1 (this is the base type that the other trees will all branch off from, like the Braton Mk1 to rifles of all sorts, or the Skana for swords)
->
* Base functional weapon of this "tree" (damage type spread, alternate fire, perks like punch through or corpse disintegration)
->
* Upgraded stats to work well with mods (higher crit chance or status chance, higher base damage, basically an upgrade, keeping the special aspect of the tree)
->
* Variants that help you focus on certain strengths of this weapon tree (this can lean in to the elemental damage type, or increasing the number of chains in a chaining beam, but this should avoid adding new special features that would create a new branch, unless that new branch is the goal.)
->
* Versions of the weapon type, keeping the special feature of this tree, but with increased base stats to be competitive in the endgame content. (Generally the Prime version.)

In all cases, mods should allow these weapons to be used in level ranges outside of their tier, even into endgame, keeping modding the primary source of progression in Warframe, while weapons and warframes are tools to channel that power in different ways. Weapon trees do not need to have variants in each tier (as modding should cover that.)

Not all weapons would need to start their trees at the 2nd tier... they could be introduced at max Star Chart functionality, with a high mastery rank requirement, and only have 1 or 2 upgrades/variants created after them, that keep the main perk of the weapon tree.

Overall, a system based on this foundation, would have a branching evolution of weapons that increases in variety as you progress (which DOES become a headache for DE to keep providing upgrades in each weapon tree, and at end game levels, might seem like weapons are created just to have an entry in that category, and could fall prey to a lack of creativity and simple stat increases, which would be sad.)

 

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

Ive dismissed your way of building, Not others. There is a difference.

As your way has just shown you to be entitled, Belittle other peoples ways of building and not considering that your way of playing with someone is from anothers perspective of you not keeping up with the others. Thus showing inconsideration to the others.

So id rather not take build advice from someone who has shown nothing but hostility and ego, Belittles everyone else playstyle but yours if it marks a hint of over performance or future thinking of the mission at hand, Has lied about their build in the cover of "sarcasm" and goes in with builds that fundamentally show underperformance in a mission but somehow is nothing noteworthy as its considerate to leave early to change your build and leave everyone else hanging and subsequently doing that for every weapon, warframe, mission and mode.

So I bid you adieu. We have nothing more to discuss you an I. As hilarious as it was.

Good riddance, since you took every point I was trying to make and twisted it without even a modicum of “Now why would they say that” if it wasn’t furthering your cherry-picked interpretation of me being the problem.

Your lack of consideration was noted long ago, it just never proved itself otherwise

[PublikDomain]

Just now, darklord122 said:

Its not about Viable its about Equalization.

You guys are taking the statement "everything should be equally good" and pushing it to its most ridiculous extremes. Nowhere have I said that everything must be identical. Please, like I asked Ervin, quote me. You won't be able to because what you're insinuating is something that you've made up.

Where you guys get lost is that Equalization does not mean making everything Identical. For example:

4 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

As in an example if two pistols both did 400 points of damage and nothing else then why have two different pistols if the fundamentally are just the exact same?
At that point one or the other can just be a subsequent skin as if not it only serves to bloat the game with weapons that fundamentally don't need to exist outside of skins.
So if all bows work the same, Just have all bows be one bow and the others as skins.

The Vasto Prime and Vaykor Marelok have an almost identical burst/sustained DPS when unmodded. Are they fundamentally just the exact same? Clearly, no. To suggest so would be ridiculous.

Making two weapons identical is unnecessary. I'm talking about making things equally good. Not identical, just close enough together so that all of them are good choices.

25 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I remember when this game called "destiny 2" launched. And it seemed like Bungie had intentionally designed the weapons to all be about equal with eachother. (With very few exceptions).

Something that, a lot of people thought they wanted. Until they got it. Then people slowly but surely realized that all the weapons basically blended together into a congealed blob of mediocrity.

Then it doesn't sound like the problem is with the weapons being equal, it's with them being equally mediocre. They could all be equally awesome, too, whatever it is you think that means. I feel like your real issue with Destiny 2 is with the combat pacing Bungie chose not being the one you prefer. FWIW, I experienced a similar "about equal" you describe when I played a few years back, and I thought it was rather nice; for me the weapons congealed into a blob of fun and I felt that I could use just about whatever I wanted, at least in PvE.

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Ultimately DE can either make every weapon about the same power level, but, then whats the point. Everything's the same. 

If you're really gonna keep asking "what's the point" then again, what's the point now? None of you have answered this simple question. What's the point of having most weapons be garbage? What was the point of adding the Velox? What was the point of adding the Vipers Wraith? What was the point of adding the Telos Akbolto? What's the point to having just 11 secondaries make up half of all weapon usage? What's the point of having a hundred other secondaries no one uses?

I can answer "what's the point" about having all weapons be good. I can answer in a heartbeat. Fun. Having 100 fun choices is more fun than having just 10. As DE have said, "ideally everybody gets a chance to play". Both you and I should get a chance to play with the things we like. Why should what you like suck compared to what I like? Why should I be permanently inferior to you just because your preferred thing happened to get a bigger number than mine?

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I remember when this game called "destiny 2" launched. And it seemed like Bungie had intentionally designed the weapons to all be about equal with eachother. (With very few exceptions).

Something that, a lot of people thought they wanted. Until they got it. Then people slowly but surely realized that all the weapons basically blended together into a congealed blob of mediocrity.

 

Ultimately DE can either make every weapon about the same power level, but, then whats the point. Everything's the same. 

Another game that released with "balanced" weapons was Anthem.

I believe we all know how that story ended.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

In all cases, mods should allow these weapons to be used in level ranges outside of their tier, even into endgame, keeping modding the primary source of progression in Warframe, while weapons and warframes are tools to channel that power in different ways.

Which is what I've been saying. Weapons should be able "to be used in level ranges outside of their tier, even into endgame". Right now the massive difference in damage outputs for weapons makes it so that most of them can't be used effectively "in level ranges outside of their tier". If weapons were more equally powerful, then they could be used effectively "in level ranges outside of their tier", and modding would indeed be the primary source of power progression - as it should be. Weapon progression should be more about exploring mechanics progressions and following preferences, just like it is with frames. Rhino is fairly simple to play, and later tank frames like Hildryn and Nidus introduce new ideas like shields-for-energy and Nidus' stacks. Likewise the starter weapons could be mechanically simple, with weapons earned later being more mechanically complex. Early shotguns are just shotguns, but later shotguns have mechanics like the Cedo's glaive or the Kuva Hek's four-shot-burst or the Corinth's grenade. The further you go, the more complex they get, but if you just want a simple shotgun there's no reason you shouldn't be able to keep using it in all the same places.

How this is achieved, I don't really care. I have thoughts of my own and I'm just not being prescriptive here. As long as you and I and everyone else can use our favorite thing even into endgame, I'm happy.

Edited February 11 by PublikDomain

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is what I've been saying. Weapons should be able "to be used in level ranges outside of their tier, even into endgame". Right now the massive difference in damage outputs for weapons makes it so that most of them can't be used effectively "in level ranges outside of their tier". If weapons had more equal damage outputs, then they could be used effectively "in level ranges outside of their tier", and modding would indeed be the primary source of power progression - as it should be. Weapon progression should be more about eexploring mechanics progressions and following preferences, just like it is with frames. Maybe the starter weapons are mechanically simple, and weapons earned later are more mechanically complex? Early shotguns are just shotguns, but later shotguns have mechanics like the Cedo's glaive or the Kuva Hek's four-shot-burst or the Corinth's grenade. The further you go, the more complex they get, but if you just want a simple shotgun there's no reason you shouldn't be able to keep using it in all the same places.

I'm still using my Orthos Prime and Zaw in endgame... it's mainly niche guns that fall off, and less optimal melee weapons with poor stances, at least for me. I just ignore guns as a means to do damage, personally.

However, the meaning I had there, was more pointed to a range of one tier higher, overlapping, so a weapon type doesn't need a version in every single tier... not so that the basic version can be modded to be used in end game... that was a major misunderstanding, perhaps fueled by imprecise wording on my part.

And I think the tree as I described it covers the whole complexity topic already. It fits within my proposal...

[darklord122]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

You guys are taking the statement "everything should be equally good" and pushing it to its most ridiculous extremes. Nowhere have I said that everything must be identical. Please, like I asked Ervin, quote me. You won't be able to because what you're insinuating is something that you've made up.

Where you guys get lost is that Equalization does not mean making everything Identical. For example:

The Vasto Prime and Vaykor Marelok have an almost identical burst/sustained DPS when unmodded. Are they fundamentally just the exact same? Clearly, no. To suggest so would be ridiculous.

Making two weapons identical is unnecessary. I'm talking about making things equally good. Not identical, just close enough together so that all of them are good choices.

Then it doesn't sound like the problem is with the weapons being equal, it's with them being equally mediocre. They could all be equally awesome, too, whatever it is you think that means. I feel like your real issue with Destiny 2 is with the combat pacing Bungie chose not being the one you prefer. FWIW, I experienced a similar "about equal" you describe when I played a few years back, and I thought it was rather nice; for me the weapons congealed into a blob of fun and I felt that I could use just about whatever I wanted, at least in PvE.

If you're really gonna keep asking "what's the point" then again, what's the point now? None of you have answered this simple question. What's the point of having most weapons be garbage? What was the point of adding the Velox? What was the point of adding the Vipers Wraith? What was the point of adding the Telos Akbolto? What's the point to having just 11 secondaries make up half of all weapon usage? What's the point of having a hundred other secondaries no one uses?

I can answer "what's the point" about having all weapons be good. I can answer in a heartbeat. Fun. Having 100 fun choices is more fun than having just 10. As DE have said, "ideally everybody gets a chance to play". Both you and I should get a chance to play with the things we like. Why should what you like suck compared to what I like? Why should I be permanently inferior to you just because your preferred thing happened to get a bigger number than mine?

If having all weapons be good is fun then ask yourself this as a final note.

Why on gods green earth have DE nor Destiny's devs done this one thing if its so easy to do.
Its been over 10 years and its not like it possibly can't have crossed their minds at the design table.
Because its more than likely infinitesimally more difficult than you might believe and what you find to be fun is very much subjective and so is everyone's in the entire game.

Some people like the massive amount of variety that warframe offers, Whether or not a weapon is mediocre or not. I mean for christs sake my friend runs around with a stug. Is it any good? God no its one of the worst weapons in the entire game. Is it fun for him? Yes somehow it is.
Fun can be made from anything and what your pretext of fun is so vague how else are we suppose to assume that you want anything other than an equalization when thats all we have been talking about, and you literally agreed that all weapons should be viable somehow?

But that's not possible to achieve because any weapon will always be better than some weapon and weapons inevitably will fall off, Whether it be stats, perks, status effects, crits etc, And unless everything is at the literal same level it wont work. Thats where we got it from, Its not a quote from you but its a context clue from you wanting a subjective way of fun that you don't elaborate on any further other than equally fun.

So explain to me and everyone here how you want everything to be equally fun yet somehow weapons have a diverse set of stats and modifiers, And somehow those diverse weapons wont over-perform each-other somehow. Explain how we can have an equilibrium of balance and fun if not all weapons literally do the same damage or have the same stats.
And explain how DE and Bungie, Both company's with years of game design and knowledge cant do that in over a decade but you somehow have solutions in the time this discussion has existed?
Just make them all equally fun is that the solution? Then we are back at square one because you have millions of players to fulfill that role to and everyone's fun is different.

Fundamentally everything can't be "equally awesome" Its an impossible thing to achieve in terms of game design without reaching some sort of roadblock or stagnation as if everything is the same then nothing is unique. And if nothing can be Unique then it will become mediocre. No game that has a weapon roster with differing stats has ever achieved this before, No MMO, No rpg, No fps. There is no game with equal weapon usage stats.
There is no game where all weapons are fun, Nor meta.
There is no game where weapons don't get sidelined and possibly abandoned due to the lack of use and lack of utility. And all that applies to all Warframes, Companions, Archwing, Archguns and even Nechramechs, And then the subsequent equivalents in other games.
If there is then please do show me where everyone thinks every weapon is equally fun, Is equally good, And solves weapons being left behind, Because if you do thats a breakthrough in game design that you want in warframe.

If any of this was achievable it would already be a part of the game.

Just saying "equalize" and "equal fun" Do not work, You cant have all weapons be equal and have variety, You cant have them all be fun without something unique. And you cant expect all weapons to be useful because of differing stats and again variety. You can strike balances yes but something will eventually dip from the curve. Especially in games like warframe were adding more weapons only adds more stats to the graph of weapon usage and usefulness.

Destiny's combat pacing I wont comment on as it has no real issues for what type of game it is and I never even mentioned it, I only explained to you what their weapon philosophy was and the very real reality most weapons have faced in the game even to the point of being removed from the game for almost half a decade only to come back revamped and even then falling of yet again.

I can also just say why should I be permanently limited in warframe a game about the limitless potential we can achieve, To fuel your own power fantasy and have fun with that in mind. So why should my fun be limited to fuel your fun. You want everyone to have equal fun well explain how then.

To play my style puts you down, To play your style puts me down. Its fundamentally subjective and I can literally not help you having less numbers then me cause I play how I enjoy the game and have been ever since the game released.
Yet I and the apparent tyrannical majority have to put themselves down for achieving great things in the game and reaching the heights they want, Or we are forced to play solo, Does that sound familiar? Sounds very fair if we spin it that direction doesn't it because this goes both ways.


Either way you spin it it will suck for either of us and we literally can not change that. So please do tell how everyone gets what they want unless the solution is just for everyone to be the same, And thus again stagnation. "Everything being equally fun/awesome" is not an answer to that question as that is a matter of subjectivity.

I can't speak for what the solutions would be, As I do not know. In an Ideal world everything would be fun and equal. But everything is not Ideal and with a cynical view can never be Ideal for everyone. And sometimes that's the way it is, Its not a dismissal its an acceptance. Things will always change down the line and things will always be changed for the better or worse. But It wont and never will be fun nor equal for everyone and everything in any game.

Edited February 11 by darklord122

[PublikDomain]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I'm still using my Orthos Prime and Zaw in endgame... it's mainly niche guns that fall off, and less optimal melee weapons with poor stances, at least for me. I just ignore guns as a means to do damage, personally.

As do quite a lot of other people, because both are very strong. Orthos Prime remains one of the most popular melee weapons in the game (5th in 2020 and 11th in 2024). But are you using the Cadus or the Kesheg? Probably not. Would you ever consider them over your Orthos Prime? It's the falling off of these kinds of niche weapons that I'm primarily concerned with. Is having niche choices fall off a good thing? Is having so many "less optimal" melees and "poor stances" a good thing? Let me again ask you the question you've asked me: what's the point of this? It's just e-waste, and it's not a desirable outcome. a better outcome is for there to be more, not less. The more that's good, and the less that falls off, the more there is to choose from and the more ambiguous the "right" answer to a problem becomes. You'll get more variety and complexity that way, not less.

57 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

However, the meaning I had there, was more pointed to a range of one tier higher, overlapping, so a weapon type doesn't need a version in every single tier... not so that the basic version can be modded to be used in end game... that was a major misunderstanding, perhaps fueled by imprecise wording on my part.

But what if my favorite gun is in the "base" tier? This is where we diverge. Why should I not be allowed to use my favorite weapon alongside someone in the "endgame" tier just because someone has arbitrarily decide that this weapon should have good stats and this one shouldn't? A different weapon with different mechanics and gameplay from further up in the tree is no substitute, it's not the same. If you're only concerned with using the best equipment this may not make sense, but every weapon in the game is unique - even among variants of the same family. If this were a different game I might be inclined to agree with you, but Warframe is like Pokemon: every frame and weapon is someone's favorite. You shouldn't be pushed to get rid of your Pikachu for a Raichu just because it's further up a tree. There's far too much uniqueness that's lost when you treat things as disposable stepping-stones. It's just such a wasteful mindset to me.

Edited February 11 by PublikDomain

[PublikDomain]

46 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Why on gods green earth have DE nor Destiny's devs done this one thing if its so easy to do.

My spicy hot take? Because DE's petrified of the potential tantrum. They've chosen to rock the boat as little as they can, and I understand why, but their approach is flawed and just not very effective - which I say because I have eyes and Google and the ability to read about the game's history.

I won't speak for Bungie, as my knowledge of that game is dated and I don't know enough about what goes on over there.

46 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Fun can be made from anything and what your pretext of fun is so vague how else are we suppose to assume that you want anything other than an equalization when thats all we have been talking about, and you literally agreed that all weapons should be viable somehow?

That's the cool thing about an equalization: it doesn't matter what my idea of fun is. I'm not trying to tell you how to have fun, like you're trying to tell me. I think everyone should choose their own fun, and be free to do so while still participating and being effective. You're included in that everyone. And that freedom of choice can't truly happen when there's such a massive difference between the best and worst gear, or when using that best gear means taking away all the fun from the people around you.

And if not letting anyone else play is your idea of fun, then sorry but I don't care if your "fun" gets toned down a bit. It's a co-op game and you can share.

46 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

And unless everything is at the literal same level it wont work.

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Making two weapons identical is unnecessary. I'm talking about making things equally good. Not identical, just close enough together so that all of them are good choices.

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Nowhere have I said that everything must be identical. Please, like I asked Ervin, quote me. You won't be able to because what you're insinuating is something that you've made up.

---

46 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

You can strike balances yes but something will eventually dip from the curve.

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

So? That's fine. Never said it wasn't. Metas will always exist and are not inherently a problem. They're only a problem when there's too much spread and you stop being able to play effectively with a majority of the game's content just because Nukor McSnobface might have an aneurysm over you liking the Vipers. A meta where the best thing is only 50% better than the average is fine.

---

46 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

I can also just say why should I be permanently limited in warframe a game about the limitless potential we can achieve, To fuel your own power fantasy and have fun with that in mind.

And you only continue to say this because you've twisted the idea of "everything should be good" into some horrific boogieman where, for some unknown reason, the idea of "everything should be good" actually doesn't include you? You're included in that statement, bud. The stuff you use is part of everything. Your stuff would be good too. All of it would be. You'd have your power fantasy. It's not going anywhere. It's just that I'd have mine too. The persecution you're perceiving is imaginary. No one is coming for your power fantasy unless your fantasy is to troll others and not let them play.

46 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

So why should my fun be limited to fuel your fun.

🤦‍♀️

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Because [you're potentially] ruining the experience for others.

Quote

Ideally everyone gets a chance to play.
-Digital Extremes, the developers of this game.

Edited February 11 by PublikDomain

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

17 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

If having all weapons be good is fun then ask yourself this as a final note.

Why on gods green earth have DE nor Destiny's devs done this one thing if its so easy to do.
Its been over 10 years and its not like it possibly can't have crossed their minds at the design table.
Because its more than likely infinitesimally more difficult than you might believe and what you find to be fun is very much subjective and so is everyone's in the entire game.

Some people like the massive amount of variety that warframe offers, Whether or not a weapon is mediocre or not. I mean for christs sake my friend runs around with a stug. Is it any good? God no its one of the worst weapons in the entire game. Is it fun for him? Yes somehow it is.
Fun can be made from anything and what your pretext of fun is so vague how else are we suppose to assume that you want anything other than an equalization when thats all we have been talking about, and you literally agreed that all weapons should be viable somehow?

But that's not possible to achieve because any weapon will always be better than some weapon and weapons inevitably will fall off, Whether it be stats, perks, status effects, crits etc, And unless everything is at the literal same level it wont work. Thats where we got it from, Its not a quote from you but its a context clue from you wanting a subjective way of fun that you don't elaborate on any further other than equally fun.

So explain to me and everyone here how you want everything to be equally fun yet somehow weapons have a diverse set of stats and modifiers, And somehow those diverse weapons wont over-perform each-other somehow. Explain how we can have an equilibrium of balance and fun if not all weapons literally do the same damage or have the same stats.
And explain how DE and Bungie, Both company's with years of game design and knowledge cant do that in over a decade but you somehow have solutions in the time this discussion has existed?
Just make them all equally fun is that the solution? Then we are back at square one because you have millions of players to fulfill that role to and everyone's fun is different.

Fundamentally everything can't be "equally awesome" Its an impossible thing to achieve in terms of game design without reaching some sort of roadblock or stagnation as if everything is the same then nothing is unique. And if nothing can be Unique then it will become mediocre. No game that has a weapon roster with differing stats has ever achieved this before, No MMO, No rpg, No fps. There is no game with equal weapon usage stats.
There is no game where all weapons are fun, Nor meta.
There is no game where weapons don't get sidelined and possibly abandoned due to the lack of use and lack of utility. And all that applies to all Warframes, Companions, Archwing, Archguns and even Nechramechs, And then the subsequent equivalents in other games.
If there is then please do show me where everyone thinks every weapon is equally fun, Is equally good, And solves weapons being left behind, Because if you do thats a breakthrough in game design that you want in warframe.

Just saying "equalize" and "equal fun" Do not work, You cant have all weapons be equal and have variety, You cant have them all be fun without something unique. And you cant expect all weapons to be useful because of differing stats and again variety. You can strike balances yes but something will eventually dip from the curve. Especially in games like warframe were adding more weapons only adds more stats to the graph of weapon usage and usefulness.

Destiny's combat pacing I wont comment on as it has no real issues for what type of game it is and I never even mentioned it, I only explained to you what their weapon philosophy was and the very real reality most weapons have faced in the game even to the point of being removed from the game for almost half a decade only to come back revamped and even then falling of yet again.

I can also just say why should I be permanently limited in warframe a game about the limitless potential we can achieve, To fuel your own power fantasy and have fun with that in mind. So why should my fun be limited to fuel your fun. You want everyone to have equal fun well explain how then.

To play my style puts you down, To play your style puts me down. Its fundamentally subjective and I can literally not help you having less numbers then me cause I play how I enjoy the game and have been ever since the game released.
Yet I and the apparent tyrannical majority have to put themselves down for achieving great things in the game and reaching the heights they want, Or we are forced to play solo, Does that sound familiar? Sounds very fair if we spin it that direction doesn't it because this goes both ways.


Either way you spin it it will suck for either of us and we literally can not change that. So please do tell how everyone gets what they want unless the solution is just for everyone to be the same, And thus again stagnation. "Everything being equally fun/awesome" is not an answer to that question as that is a matter of subjectivity.

If your "fun" is just chasing big numbers like a headless chicken, why should you be afraid? 

Even in a more balanced sandbox where 22 secondaries are viable instead of 11, there would still be metas and best in slot gears for you to chase like the mindless moths your type are. There will still be efficiency. There will still be vertical and horizontal progressions, minmaxing and optimization. There will still be negative integer cap damage numbers. Why are you so afraid? Why would a sandbox where Lex is only ten times as bad as Kuva Nukor instead of multiple hundreds of times as bad be so much worse for your experience? Explain why having 90% of the game's gears being garbage is fun for you and why improving that disparity- not even a perfect solution, just steps to improve them- would lessen your fun.