Feedback Gathering Eclipse Feedback Megathread

[_Anise_]

7 hours ago, Hexerin said:

The whole thing about Eclipse is that you have either one or the other

ah I see yeah I didn't realize ! ok you changed my mind !

[Sateiel]

Tap/Toggle and nerf it on helminth

[Orokin]

Reduce it to +30% damage to be consistent with Roar

[BowserNC]

tap/hold or toggle

[LJGen]

I always felt like Eclipse felt much better whenever you can snapshot it with invisibility (e.g. on Loki, or putting Quiver on your mirage to shoot invis arrows on your sentinel). But this never felt intended in the first place and only works with specific setups. I think it could be an interesting possibility to make this snapshotting the default. Whenever you cast the buff it snapshots the current light value and keeps it for the rest of the duration. It still keeps the duality aspect of the spell intact, where a player that needs damage can (re)cast it in a light area or (re)cast it in a dark area if one desires damage reduction.
I also think this alleviates the inconsistency of the light in different areas since the buff doesn't change with traversing the map anymore. Instead, you just need to find a light or dark spot once for the entire duration, which is easier to optimize your gameplay for, than constantly thinking about the (inconsistent) light conditions of where you are at right now.

Hope these thoughts might be helpful :)

[Mayhem-Ivory]

Toggle or Tap/Hold is obviously the best way to go.

If I could, I‘d even make it like Dagath‘s Grave Spirit and just have it remain active all the time; since constant recasting is a pain.

There‘s an important few things to note for Helminth though:

-do not, under any circumstances, reduce the duration. That just makes it more bothersome. The people that say it would be a „short term high power boost“ have no idea what they‘re talking about. We already have those, they‘re called Ballistic Battery and Energized Munitions; and nobody uses those, because they‘re painfully and obnoxiously short.

-do not put caps on the helminth version; remove the ones that are there in fact! Not only is 75% damage reduction not worth much, it even starts at that value. Just reduce the starting values from 200 to 120 and from 75 to 35. Investing in strength should actually have worthwhile returns and allow you to get that 300 and 95 without any caps.

 

Please don‘t add any gimmicky requirements, and please don‘t unnecessarily nerf it on the helminth. The people that actually use it got mostly as little of a clue about how it actually works as the people here in the forum claiming it would become mandatory. It should at least become a viable consideration, and not be just bad.

[TianLing_QianYe]

Toggle

 

[Swerdree]

Make it toggle/ tap-hold please

 

[Coren024]

3 hours ago, Mayhem-Ivory said:

Toggle or Tap/Hold is obviously the best way to go.

If I could, I‘d even make it like Dagath‘s Grave Spirit and just have it remain active all the time; since constant recasting is a pain.

There‘s an important few things to note for Helminth though:

-do not, under any circumstances, reduce the duration. That just makes it more bothersome. The people that say it would be a „short term high power boost“ have no idea what they‘re talking about. We already have those, they‘re called Ballistic Battery and Energized Munitions; and nobody uses those, because they‘re painfully and obnoxiously short.

-do not put caps on the helminth version; remove the ones that are there in fact! Not only is 75% damage reduction not worth much, it even starts at that value. Just reduce the starting values from 200 to 120 and from 75 to 35. Investing in strength should actually have worthwhile returns and allow you to get that 300 and 95 without any caps.

 

Please don‘t add any gimmicky requirements, and please don‘t unnecessarily nerf it on the helminth. The people that actually use it got mostly as little of a clue about how it actually works as the people here in the forum claiming it would become mandatory. It should at least become a viable consideration, and not be just bad.

Agreed, short duration abilities are just an attention tax. For most energy is not a concern and cast times can be reduced.

 

I think in a post Grendel rework Nourish all of the damage buff Helminth abilities should get another pass on how they work, especially as it doesn't have the restriction Xata's Whisper, Roar, or Eclipse have.

[(XBOX)AppleyFrog]

Anyone vouchin for the spotlight idea wanna explain how Total Eclipse should work with that?

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

Please don't turn it into another boring tap/hold activate&forget ability :/

The idea with spawning pillars of light is much more engaging and offers more interesting gameplay, and it is much closer to the original vision for the ability.

Mirage is very near and dear to my heart, so I am excited to see more interesting gameplay here!

[Raptor_ODonnell]

People are going to hate me for trying to keep it interesting but hey, I like designs + function over pure function.

The concept is based off this art of a mirage card representing her two sides.
The card turns to reveal the active side and diminishes to show time left.

Make the ability a ability have three settings, and the active ability is represented by the rotation of a card. 
Light/Dark/Twilight

The card fills/brightens depending on the level of increase as compared to the max it can give its bonus

Light does increased weapon damage
Picking up ammo drops increases weapon damage bonus to a point that starts to drain after some time. [The max it drops is higher than the starting point]


Dark reduces incoming damage
Picking up health, affinity, and energy orbs increases the reduction rate that starts to drain after some time. [The max it drops is higher than the starting point]

Twilight gains the bonus of both Light and Dark at Reduced bonuses.
However, while in Twilight kills and kill assists add to the timer left, effectively giving players a way of restoring the timer on the ability without having to do the full body animation.
Twilight is NOT part of the Helminth subsume.

First Cast- Start in Twilight
Hold Cast Start in Dark

When Already Active
Tap Cast - Turns Card Light/Twilight/Dark/Twilight
Hold Cast - Swaps between Active and Twilight or Twilight and Last Active


There's a little something for everyone. But there's also a major benefit to using the ability on Mirage.

Edited January 28 by Raptor_ODonnell

[strafels1]

Make eclipse a Switch pls, or atlaest only on mirage and maybe not in helminth? its feels so bad to use on day to day content because 90% of the time u dont have the stat u want unless u are in open world :(

[_Anise_]

10 hours ago, Orokin said:

Reduce it to +30% damage to be consistent with Roar

roar apples damage to EVERYTHING (and your party) and adds damage on top of our guns like the faction damage mods

eclipse applies only to your weapons and is multiplicative so does not increase your weapons by as much

making it 30% would make it unusable and not in line with what roar is doing at all!

Edited January 29 by _Anise_

[Portlalaland]

I think the UI can be improved. Instead of just a buff icon, maybe something more exposed, like Gauss' battery or Wukong's Defy armor gauge.

[Eiddew]

I think it's kind of a boring ability to start with, so a total rework would be more interesting - especially considering Mirage already has a fire and forget ability in her 1.

Simpler option: Go invisible and gain damage resistance, spawn a specter in your place for a few seconds. Gain a damage increase proportional to the damage the specter does when it expires.

 

Too complex option:

She has the magic aspect in her 1, trickery in her 2, smoke and mirrors in her 3, and a light show in her 4, but I think she could use something relating to comedy and tragedy. In the quest she smiled and laughed a lot, but that's not a sound effect in her current kit.

Maybe something like a timed buff where "Comedic" actions like allies/objective taking damage, allies going down, or missing builds up decaying damage resistance. "Heroic" actions like kills and mission progress build up a decaying damage buff.

[Sora.]

toggle

[Instrumentalie1]

I'd prefer for it to be fixed to the best of the team's ability. I enjoy messing around with it in the tilesets and seeing where they work for when I want which buff. Especially, Since then it would be fixed for any future environments.

• We can fix the locations it doesn’t work correctly in (like Albrecht’s Laboratories and Open Zone areas) but leave everything else the same - including its unpredictability when moving. This would require extensive work to fix as it ties into our new lighting system but would allow Eclipse to work in these areas and any future environments.

[_Anise_]

tbh de needs to decide what numbers they plan to mess with in the regular/helminth for hold/push then put it to a vote, fix the lighting yet again or go with x/y numbers and what others are being considered

I wouldn't hate idea that damage defence being based around energy color, you mostly run with damage/survive as part of a build and wont really need to switch between them mid mission usually

Edited January 29 by _Anise_

[Mournfall_]

Make it Tap/Hold - maybe the ability to swap them for no or lower energy cost if it's already active (maybe it doesn't refresh the duration if it's no cost, but will refresh if it does cost a lower energy cost)
Don't nerf the base version.
Make the Helminth version have lower BASE numbers and don't cap them super low - e.g. the Damage Resistance for the Helminth version could be base 30% but cap out at 90% or 95% like normal (understandable for Mirage herself to be able to hit the 95% exclusively), which requires a heavy build investment to reach, rather than flat out capping it at a lower, less useful value (as DR below 90% isn't very useful). The damage buff could also be base 60% (if you really need it lower; 100% would also be fine if you don't want to drop it too far) with no cap. Numbers are for the max-rank version of the ability.

An argument could also be made to limit its use with other damage resistance abilities on the same frame, similarly to how no two of Roar, Xata's Whisper, Eclipse, and Vex Armour cannot be on the same warframe at once. Trinity's Blessing would be a fair candidate, for instance. Citrine's Preserving Shell, too (though it'll still work if another Citrine has the ability active nearby). Stuff like that.

Edited January 29 by Mournfall_
revised numbers, and clarity of max-rank ability numbers

[Prince-of-Space]

My vote is definitely on reliability.

[(XBOX)CodeSourpatch]

wouldn't making it like how thermal sunder work be fine?

[Vakros]

Tap/hold for dmg buff or reduction buff. Or toggle and have the buff be dependent on emissive color ( dark or bright )

[DraconaxPrime]

Just do Tap/Hold, balance as necessary.  The current light system for the ability has been a huge reason why I don't play Mirage, or use Eclipse in the Helminth.  I don't want to have to be worrying about looking at the ground to figure out how dark or light an area is to get the appropriate buff.  I just want to press the ability and have it do what I expect it to do.  Tap/Hold allows you to always know exactly what buff you're getting and when.  If it means the ability has to have its numbers reduced, so be it.  At least it will actually be enjoyable to play.  

[NinjaSyao]

On 2024-01-27 at 8:30 AM, Hexerin said:

Setting the base value to 30% would be far, far too low. That would require an insane 317% ability strength to reach the 95% cap, or 300% ability strength just to get the standard 90% cap that every other frame gets for 200% ability strength or less. Yet another Brozime L, no surprise there.

There's no reason to nerf the DR. At most, adjust it to have a reasonably lower base value and boost it to a higher 90% cap (necessitating ability strength investment) to normalize it with modern standards. For example:

I'm not a fan of Brozime's ideas and builds myself, for example the Mesa green shard build is so pointless it hurts, but he's got a point on this one. Every outside source of DR sofar has had hefty requirements attached to it:

Null Star helminth: the frame needs 300% duration for full effect, is inconsistent at best, despises any build with range... which is most frame builds out there AND only works on health
Arcane Double Back: only 75% DR, requires different movements to activate and thus forcing you into a certain way of playing and has really crappy duration

^ Only needing 180% power strength (which is peanuts, considering how many sources of power strength we now have) for an ability that's basically a good Null Star AND a Roar competitor at the same time? Pfft! Please, DE is not gonna do that.
They were already talking about nerfing the values of the Helminth version if the toggle became a thing. I'd much rather have them make it a good ability with very, very high requirements (328% power strength requirement for full strip never stopped Pillage from being popular, lol), then them getting scared and nerf the buffs into the ground.